I want to know more about Human Growth Hormone used in FTM guys. I want to present a case to my physician, but I think I need more concrete personal experiences and research to present my case. Thanks.
There is already a thread on this buddy!
Yeah? where? The search function on this site doesn't turn up much. You got a link?
I agree, the search function is "iffy" but I did find one of the two threads;
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,63398.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,63398.0.html)
A little more creative searching and I should find the other one.
Correction...
The second thread seems to have been deleted, so..
Enjoy.
Why are YOU interested in taking HGH?
Thanks for posting that link. I guess I had found that one too, I was just hoping there was more informative links out there. Why am I interested in taking HGH, Alex? Why wouldn't I be? Bigger dick, bigger hands/feet, whatever to make me a little more happy with my size. I'm kindof short.
Not sure why you worded that the way you did, but there's your answer.
I don't know if you should get all your hopes up for HGH ... I tried to talk to my endo about it but it's very hard since there's no info out there relating to people like us taking it. The only thing I've heard about it was on this forum. My endo basically said that it's EXTREMELY expensive and that he doesn't think it's possible for it to do anything. He said that if something came out about it improving bottom surgery results he would turn in his card to the endocrine society, basically saying he thinks it makes no sense/is impossible. ... I'm not trying to say all this HGH stuff is BS, I'm just saying that there's not much info out there, it might be hard to get a dr to give you a go-ahead on it, and we don't even know for sure what the usual results are for us.
I've heard the story on here and it sounds amazing. If I had insurance or could get to a dr to try it, I would, because I have a feeling the endo I'm seeing isn't completely right on this issue and that it would help out a lot more than he thinks. The only studies I could find had to do with micropenis and he said it doesn't apply because the participants in the study had HGH deficiency. And it's kind of hard to argue with a dr, especially one you've only seen twice, when they think there's no way what you're talking about could be possible. But like I said, I'd try to go for it anyways, so if you can do I hope it works out for you. Myself, I can't really afford the $150 for the endo appointment because I don't have insurance, let alone the couple of thousand for a few months of HGH, so I guess it doesn't matter for me.
I hear ya, Kevin. I've got a doctor's appointment tomorrow, and am going to bring up the subject. Even if she could do some research or talk around, that would be great. I do have insurance, too, so hopefully I'll get lucky. I'll let you guys know what I find out.
Cool, good luck! I hope it works out for ya, I'm interested to hear what she says.
Bigger dick and hands and feet are very good reasons.
I'm pretty short myself, 5'4" and while there are many bio-guys my height it still puts me on the short end of the scale.
Out of curiousity I looked into my insurance to see when they would pay for HGH treatment. Let me tell you... there are way more restrictions than I even thought possible. Even conditions that I think should be covered weren't. Forget about it covering treatment for trans issues. Also, if you did meet the requirements you had to regularly submit doctor info and results to them as well as have different tests done. It was insane! :icon_dizzy:
FYI my insurance is Blue Cross Blue Shield. If you have them forget about them covering it. With HGH costing thousands per month it's not an option for most of us. :(
First you need to look up Acromegaly, and ask yourself if its worth it.
Assuming you avoid taking more than say, 18 year old levels, like most intelligent bodybuilders, then youre not going to see anymore growth than you would have if you had been taking T/DHT since you were 18. This isnt a bad thing, since masculinization is more severe the earlier you start taking testosterone. I wouldnt take it if I was younger than 25 when I started my Testosterone treatments though, chances are its not going to do squat for you if you do. Also, even in "low" doses HgH makes quite a bit of IGF-1 and regardless of how you regulate it, youre going to end up with bigger intestines - granted they shrink again (slowly) once you stop taking the HgH.
Im not knocking the idea at all though guys, dont get me wrong, if you have the funds, and are over 25 you should take HgH, it will definatly help masculinize you. Maybe that would be a good place to argue from with your endo. - Im older, I have less GH, therefore I need the treatments to nuke my system back to 18 year old levels so that the T/DHT treatments will be more effective. Make sure they test your GH levels before you start taking it though, you might be lucky and have naturally high levels for your age anyway.
Just dont take HgH to the point of where your hands and feet are expanding or if youre a kid. Youre screwing yourself up way more than youre helping. The goal is to be healthy finally, not the reverse.
Why is it best to be over 25? I would think it'd be best to be younger. ???
If you take HgH when you're younger, you're just retarding your own GH production. If you take it in quantites above "youthful levels" youre going to suffer from acromegaly, or if you take it when youre really young, giantism, with acromegaly. So its pretty pointless (or dangerous) to take when you have naturally "youthful" levels.
Basically kids make tons of this stuff, and they dont need more, but in an adult you only make it in small quantities. Now starvation, inversion therapy, ah..eating very little 6 six times a day, getting 12 hours or more sleep per day, those can raise GH levels in adults, but not to the point of say when you were 18. I use ~18 because generally most (but not all) distal bone growth in women has stopped by then. GH has dropped off, but not significantly to where your skin is starting to loosen, your hair grows slower, you're losing more muscle than you're building, ect ect.
You wouldnt want to take say, a 16 or 12 year old's levels because you dont need to mature bones and organs beyond their adult levels, thats what causes acromegaly, which contrary to wanting bigger hands and feet, you dont want. Granted you do want a certain "organ" to mature to an adult level, but you dont need the systemic levels to do that. The only reason you would need it at all, is it seems to help fool your body into thinking its a boy rather than an adult woman, with the testosterone. If youre still a girl, its not such a big leap to switch to boy. Basically GH only effects your age, not your genetics -unfortunately. Or, as I have already eaten crow once, for not keeping up on things, thats what we thought in the 90s. Does anybody have links to more modern studies that might refute this?
Thanks for that info, Kumo. I'm a little confused as to what you meant by your last statement in that post.
quick update about my Dr. appointment today-- she confessed she did not have enough experience (uh, none other than me) dealing with FTM's or HGH, but she is going to call in a recommendation to a gender clinic at (I believe) the University of Michigan. If it's not at U of M, it's definitely in Ann Arbor. Anybody been there before? Anyone want to meet me for a drink and check it out?
I don't know how it's going to pan out, as I don't know how much my insurance will cover...but it's been 9 years since I've been to anyone specific about gender reassignment, so she thought it would be a good idea even if I can't get the HGH. I'll keep you posted.
On Acromealgy,
"Because of its insidious pathogenesis and slow progression, the disease is hard to diagnose in the early stages and is frequently missed for many years, until changes in external features, especially of the face, become noticeable"
Taking HGH for One Year to boost your penile-growth (as an adult) would probably not result in acromealgy.
I would think that as we get older, the difference HGH injections would do will be greater.
None the less, since there's No "Factual" study of it as of yet, there's No, Zero, Nada, guarantee that it'll help at all.
(That being said, I'm hoping to obtain it myself.)
Well Im a Naturalist, not a molecular biologist, or physiologist. I did however take alot of physiology back in the day, because I wanted to become an experimental pathologist once upon a time. Im also a bodybuilder, in the hardcore sence and so Ive seen the effects of GH on people, as well as read about them. Even over a year, youre going to get some abdominal destension, but it does go away.
The reason I was like O.o no, guys dont do that!, is from what I know, you do not want to take HgH in significant dosages to the point of where youre hands and feet are growing. The first sign that you should back off HgH is when your ring size goes up more than 1 or 2. Because some of you guys mentioned you were looking forward to that, I assumed you ment you'd be taking enough, over 2-4 years that you'd be risking acromegaly.
The studies in the 90s that I know about were all done to see if they could reverse the effects of aging. The only significance for us, that I could see, would be because the hormone treatments we go thru work better the younger you start. Now bodybuilders use it primarily to do basically the same thing, keep themselves in the "not getting any taller, but not losing muscle/bone mass" cycle that young adults exist in. Its not a directly anabolic substance, except as its products (IGF , ect) but it does allow you to build muscle like you were in your 20s, all the way thru your 40s. That extra 20 years is what makes the super freaky Olympians we see to day. But what Im getting at with all that is, it doesnt actually amplify testosterone's effects directly. So unless you need HgH (and one could argue anyone over 25 needs it) its not going to do crap for you.
The reason I'm curious/excited about it is for the sake of maximizing the growth caused by testosterone to my "little guy".
The reason I believe it may help with that is two fold;
- Mister's results.
- A clinical study that shows that giving HGH to genetic males that have a micropenis (over the age in which their penis grows the most) can allow them to reach a "normal" size (over 7 centemeters).
I don't care if I'm "small" as long as I can reach that point where it's within the "normal" range. I don't care if all I get is 8 centimeters, at least 8 is "normal".
It has been stated that a doctor once said HGH only helped men who have a deficiency of HGH. That's quite ridiculous for a doctor to be saying, in my opinion. While we do not have a deficiency of HGH, the levels of a pubescent male cannot be compared to the levels of most adult FTMs. If we were, in fact, pubescent males and still maintained our levels of HGH, we would be HGH deficient. That is why our "little guys" aren't able to grow to a size that is deemed average by statistics. If our testosterone is within average male range, then what else could be the explanation? That we are simply not "male"? Nonsense - the male fetus, in essence, has a clitoris in the womb. Testosterone changes the male fetuses' "clitoris" into a penis with testosterone alone, which is very similar to the growth testosterone is responsible for in FTMs. However, that alone will not give us what we seek. HGH is the missing link, or at least, I believe it to be. It may not work for all people, there is no clear evidence that states that it works at all. But there is reason to believe it will.
the levels of a pubescent male cannot be compared to the levels of most adult FTMs
This would be the Main core argument I plan to use to convince my doc that HGH is a viable option, after giving him my printed out papers on said study.
Quote from: V on October 01, 2009, 04:55:40 PM
It has been stated that a doctor once said HGH only helped men who have a deficiency of HGH. That's quite ridiculous for a doctor to be saying, in my opinion. While we do not have a deficiency of HGH, the levels of a pubescent male cannot be compared to the levels of most adult FTMs. If we were, in fact, pubescent males and still maintained our levels of HGH, we would be HGH deficient. That is why our "little guys" aren't able to grow to a size that is deemed average by statistics. If our testosterone is within average male range, then what else could be the explanation? That we are simply not "male"? Nonsense - the male fetus, in essence, has a clitoris in the womb. Testosterone changes the male fetuses' "clitoris" into a penis with testosterone alone, which is very similar to the growth testosterone is responsible for in FTMs. However, that alone will not give us what we seek. HGH is the missing link, or at least, I believe it to be. It may not work for all people, there is no clear evidence that states that it works at all. But there is reason to believe it will.
True, I fully agree, Im only warning that you dont really need the same levels as a pubescent male to achieve those goals if theyre going to happen. Taking that much HgH at maturity will enlarge everything in your body capable of still growing - perhaps not much, but do you want to risk it?
On a side note, there are alot of genetic "on and off switches" to growth beyond HgH, and some of those will limit how much development you receive regardless of how much GH you inject. For instance, your example of a fetus. You dont grow a penis from taking Testosterone not so much because you are not male, but because you are not a fetus. Their cells, and our cells are completely different creatures. When undifferentiated fetal urinary type cells are hit with DHT, they elongate, forming the shunt that we all wish we had running down the clit. Without DHT those cells are defaulted to compose the labia minora and vaginal wall. It would be nice if as adults we still had the undifferentiated tissues, but then we'd be reptiles, trying to grow lizards ;)
Yeah, for sure there are some things you can't change. That's why you have surgery. You can't exactly grow a full-functioning, fully-sized penis from the clitoris from an adult. I think the most important thing is, for surgery to be successful (to pass in locker rooms, to perform as you want it to, etcetera), you need a certain amount of growth. I think HGH could help with that.
As you seem to have an idea about the levels of HGH necessary for this sort of growth - which sort of levels are you looking for, then? I know that people often get referral notes for certain things... That require HGH. But I have yet to find out which sort of disorder would require the same amount of HGH as we might.
I thought I'd throw this info out there from BCBS's insurance. It gives you an idea of what situations are covered and what isn't. I just included the prerequisites for an adult since most of us are.
**Warning! Long post. Not for the tl;dr.**
When Growth Hormone is covered:
1. Adult onset symptomatic GH deficiency associated with low GH levels (documented by failure of at least two GH stimulation tests). 24-hour continuous measurements of GH, serum levels of IGF-1, or serum levels of IGFBP-3 are considered inadequate to document GH deficiency.
2. Childhood onset symptomatic GH deficiency, where persistent GH deficiency is documented by at least one failed GH stimulation test performed at least 3 months after the cessation of prior GH therapy.
3. Adult onset symptomatic GH deficiency associated with multiple hormone deficiencies (i.e., panhypopituitarism), as a result of pituitary disease, hypothalamic disease, surgery, radiation therapy, or trauma.
The diagnosis of panhypopituitarism is established when either one of the two following criteria (a or b) are met:
a. At least 2 additional hormone deficiencies (other than GH) requiring hormone replacement therapy are documented (e.g., TSH, ACTH, ADH or gonadotropin hormones) as well as failure of at least 1 GH stimulation test, OR
b. Three pituitary hormone deficiencies (other than GH) requiring hormone replacement therapy (where clinically appropriate) are documented AND a low IGF level (below 80 ng/ml) is documented in lieu of GH stimulation testing.
4. Renewal of coverage for adult GH therapy may be granted on an annual basis without additional testing if the original documentation of failed GH stimulation testing is made available with the request for renewal of coverage, and there is continued clinical benefit in symptoms or signs.
Other conditions in which GH therapy may be considered medically necessary and are eligible for coverage include the following:
1. HIV cachexia or "wasting syndrome," defined by unintentional weight loss of at least 10 percent of baseline weight, or BMI < 20 kg/m2, not attributable to other causes (such as AIDS-associated diarrhea, infection, malignancy or depression), when optimal anti-viral therapy has been instituted. Therapy is continued until this definition is no longer met.
2. Short Bowel Syndrome (SBS), defined as the inability to maintain adequate nutritional status without parenteral (intravenous) supplementation required at least 5 days/week for a total of at least 3,000 calories/ week, due to surgical or functional loss of small bowel.
a. Continued coverage for Short Bowel Syndrome will be approved on a quarterly basis (every 3 months) when continued benefit is documented by a sustained decrease in IV nutritional requirements and sustained weight.
3. Promotion of wound healing in children or adults with 3rd degree burns.
When Growth Hormone is not covered:
A. When none of the conditions under "When Covered" are present, OR when any of the conditions for continued therapy ("renewal criteria") are not met, the use of GH therapy will be considered not medically necessary.
B. The use of Growth Hormone for short stature in patients with no proven Growth Hormone deficiency (e.g., idiopathic short stature without evidence of biologic impairment of the growth hormone pituitary axis) is not covered. It is considered cosmetic.
C. Investigational conditions. The use of GH therapy is considered investigational and is not covered for certain conditions, including but not limited to:
1. Constitutional delay (defined as lower than expected height percentiles compared with their target height percentiles and delayed skeletal maturation when growth velocities and rates of bone age advancement are normal.)
2. Therapy for geriatric patients, defined as age >65.
3. Anabolic therapy provided to counteract acute or chronic catabolic illness due to surgery outcomes, trauma (except for children with severe burns or for promotion of wound healing in children or adults with third degree burns), cancer, chronic hemodialysis (except as specified above for chronic renal
insufficiency) or chronic infectious disease producing catabolic (protein wasting) changes in both adult and pediatric patients (except for the specific covered indication of AIDS wasting noted above.)
4. Anabolic therapy provided to enhance body mass or strength for professional, recreational or social reasons.
5. Glucocorticoid-induced growth failure.
6. Short stature after renal transplantation.
7. Short stature due to Bloom or Down Syndrome.
8. Treatment of altered body habitus (e.g., buffalo hump) associated with antiviral therapy in HIV infected patients.
9. Precocious puberty.
10. Obesity.
11. Cystic fibrosis.
12. Idiopathic dilated cardiomyopathy.
13. Infertility.
14. Juvenile rheumatoid (or idiopathic chronic) arthritis.
15. Chronic hepatitis.
16. Diabetes.
that post is so getting pulled...
very perceptive. :laugh:
Well, I thought it was brilliant and educational. How are we supposed to keep ourselves from being in harm without such information? Ah well. ::)
Quote from: V on October 04, 2009, 03:25:13 AM
Well, I thought it was brilliant and educational. How are we supposed to keep ourselves from being in harm without such information? Ah well. ::)
well... we can keep ourselves from harm by going to a doctor who can monitor us and do blood tests. we can also stay out of harm by not giving information to people that could encourage them to try to administer HGH to themselves.
I can't understand how some of this stuff stays up but stuff where a person is discussing self-injecting and DOES mention they're under the care of a doctor, they're just doing their shots themselves like I do, gets pulled.
Some of this stuff is better pursued on some of "those" bodybuilding sites not here.
Ah hell I didnt know that was a no-no, sorry. But honestly it wasnt a dosage chart anyway, it was a blood serum level approximation. You'd need a medical professional, or at least a lab to help figure that out. Dosages would look alot different, and I couldnt even give an ~ until I knew what the base strength of the stuff you had was, and how much water you were mixing ect ect.
I put it up, because I figured Droo was calling me out on not knowing my ass from a hole in the ground, and you guys were talking about some dangerous side effects being bonuses. If you found a Physician who was like, "SURE sounds neat!", that would harm ya alot more than what your blood serum levels should be. Forgive me but, I have found that most doctors have their heads up their butts when it comes to sports medicine/experimentation. Just wanted you guys to know I was serious, and not cheezin'. :embarrassed:
Oh, and Droo, didnt see the second part of your question, the answer to which would be boneloss associated with age, and if you really wanted to get scary, and go for the higher doses, the wasting due to HIV. I wouldnt give myself HIV just to get GH treatments however. Just find a good Endo whos not a retard, and explain why you want it. A good one will know how much to give ya.
Quote from: Josh on October 04, 2009, 01:58:03 AMthat post is so getting pulled...
I don't see why. It's just information on what and what not one insurance company will cover for HGH. You have to have some extreme conditions to get covered, and definitely won't be covered for trans reasons. Guys were wondering if insurance would cover it and under what conditions.
You have to have a prescription for HGH, but if someone
does get a prescription they'd most likely have to pay out of pocket- which is thousands per month. No mention of dosages are revelled. If someone was foolish enough to get "black market" HGH then most likely they would've done it anyway.
Quote from: Radar on October 05, 2009, 07:11:13 AM
I don't see why. It's just information on what and what not one insurance company will cover for HGH. You have to have some extreme conditions to get covered, and definitely won't be covered for trans reasons. Guys were wondering if insurance would cover it and under what conditions.
You have to have a prescription for HGH, but if someone does get a prescription they'd most likely have to pay out of pocket- which is thousands per month. No mention of dosages are revelled. If someone was foolish enough to get "black market" HGH then most likely they would've done it anyway.
Hi Radar,
That was in reference to a deleted post under yours.
Quote from: Nero on October 05, 2009, 08:02:30 AMHi Radar,
That was in reference to a deleted post under yours.
Oh, O.K. I missed that. It's been a long week (already). :eusa_doh:
Quote from: Kumodamoogle on October 04, 2009, 03:09:18 PM
Ah hell I didnt know that was a no-no, sorry. But honestly it wasnt a dosage chart anyway, it was a blood serum level approximation. You'd need a medical professional, or at least a lab to help figure that out. Dosages would look alot different, and I couldnt even give an ~ until I knew what the base strength of the stuff you had was, and how much water you were mixing ect ect.
I put it up, because I figured Droo was calling me out on not knowing my ass from a hole in the ground, and you guys were talking about some dangerous side effects being bonuses. If you found a Physician who was like, "SURE sounds neat!", that would harm ya alot more than what your blood serum levels should be. Forgive me but, I have found that most doctors have their heads up their butts when it comes to sports medicine/experimentation. Just wanted you guys to know I was serious, and not cheezin'. :embarrassed:
Oh, and Droo, didnt see the second part of your question, the answer to which would be boneloss associated with age, and if you really wanted to get scary, and go for the higher doses, the wasting due to HIV. I wouldnt give myself HIV just to get GH treatments however. Just find a good Endo whos not a retard, and explain why you want it. A good one will know how much to give ya.
Thank you, I think you are very right, and meant no harm at all. :) I will have to locate a good endo, but I doubt I will find one in my province. Being in Canada, and in the middle of nowhere, it will be difficult to find a progressive, forward-thinking, yet
knowledgeable endocrinologist who can keep me safe on HGH, while giving me the results I do want. I wouldn't mind a little bit of growth (say, in hands and feet) on it, but I don't want to cause any unnecessary or irreversible harm to my young body. That is why I found there to be no harm in your post, really - you need a medical professional, there is no way you glorified illegal and unsafe use.