I was watching a transgender theme movie (Beautiful Boxer)today, and a reporter asked the transwoman, "When did you first decide you wanted to become a woman?"
I thought this was perfectly appropos of the way ->-bleeped-<- is misunderstood by the mainstream.
The proper query would be, "When did you first realize that your body was the wrong gender?"
There is no "becoming" women. We always were female.
There is no decision, there is only recognition and/or acceptance.
I thought I was a girl as a child. Then one day my mom and sisters pointed out that I was different. I was dis-made. It was at that moment I wanted to change this curse that had been placed upon me.
I tried as hard as I could to "act" like a man. But I was only acting and I'm not a good actor. Nearly everyone could still see the girl in me. Some ignored it, others would challenge me on it
I'm just amazed that it took so long and going through so much s--- for me to do something about it :P
The question its correct.
You arent being born a woman. You become one. Thats a normal process for girls to become women. Its called growing up.
But you are correct on being born female.
I think it's a typical response from those who don't face the situations we are born in to. Unless you experience the situation most people have no empathy for anyone who isn't in "their" normality, be it gender, sexuality or even bringing in the disabled and the ill. I can hear it now " What was like realising you didn't have legs?"
BTW what was the movie like? I haven't heard of it before.
Cindy
Quote from: CindyJames on September 26, 2009, 03:58:38 AM
I think it's a typical response from those who don't face the situations we are born in to. Unless you experience the situation most people have no empathy for anyone who isn't in "their" normality, be it gender, sexuality or even bringing in the disabled and the ill. I can hear it now " What was like realising you didn't have legs?"
Cindy
Thing is though, most people would consider it terribly insensitive to ask a disabled person that. But not us.
Hi Nero,
A close friend had a similar question. He is paralysed below the upper torso following a tumour on his spine. He was operated on at age 13. 40 plus years ago. I was having coffee with him when someone asked. How did it feel to be told you would never walk again? The conversation was in a circumstance of facing adversity, but still rude.
BTW if you wish to know what it's like to be different, get a friend to push you around in a wheelchair, and try and "look" disabled not just I broke a leg sking. You become totally invisible. (Sorry for the generalisation here) Men push past you and walk in front of you and never give way. Women give way and smile. Children don't know what to do, their parents do not teach them acceptable behaviour. Shop assistants ignore you. You are in the way.
I'm not in a chair but my wife is and very disabled. Sorry feeling a bit sad had one of those days as detailed above.
Got off the subject as usual.
Sorry a bit depressed and going down hill.
I think it's time for me to log off and go find a crying place, sorry
Cindy
Quote from: CindyJames on September 26, 2009, 05:37:58 AM
Hi Nero,
A close friend had a similar question. He is paralysed below the upper torso following a tumour on his spine. He was operated on at age 13. 40 plus years ago. I was having coffee with him when someone asked. How did it feel to be told you would never walk again? The conversation was in a circumstance of facing adversity, but still rude.
BTW if you wish to know what it's like to be different, get a friend to push you around in a wheelchair, and try and "look" disabled not just I broke a leg sking. You become totally invisible. (Sorry for the generalisation here) Men push past you and walk in front of you and never give way. Women give way and smile. Children don't know what to do, their parents do not teach them acceptable behaviour. Shop assistants ignore you. You are in the way.
I'm not in a chair but my wife is and very disabled. Sorry feeling a bit sad had one of those days as detailed above.
Got off the subject as usual.
Sorry a bit depressed and going down hill.
I think it's time for me to log off and go find a crying place, sorry
Cindy
aww I'm sorry to hear that, sweetie. :( <big nero hug>
Quote from: Zelane on September 26, 2009, 03:45:14 AM
You arent being born a woman. You become one. Thats a normal process for girls to become women. Its called growing up.
But you are correct on being born female.
agreed. to say "i'm a woman" when you have never lived as a woman is a little bit of a stretch, wouldn't cha say?
I dont disagree with that but its still a bit of a poorly phrased question that hints at the low general awareness and understanding of the cis-gendered community. Yes its a stretch to say "im a woman" when you ahve never lived as one but for (i assume) the majority of transwomen saying they have "really" lived as a man would also be a stretch, its easier to call yourself the gender you feel inside than label yourself as the gender you were born as or as a "->-bleeped-<-". I think the real problem is that for cis-gendered folk we are A becoming Z where in reality we are somewhere inbetween from the start just trying to fit in with one of the catagories.
Just my poorly written 2 cents...........
(I am androgyne identifying and i dont know your views on our little subcatagory and hope you dont feel insulted by me talking for you more conventional transfolk, the topic caught my eye)
Quote from: CindyJames on September 26, 2009, 05:37:58 AM
BTW if you wish to know what it's like to be different, get a friend to push you around in a wheelchair, and try and "look" disabled not just I broke a leg sking. You become totally invisible. (Sorry for the generalisation here) Men push past you and walk in front of you and never give way. Women give way and smile. Children don't know what to do, their parents do not teach them acceptable behaviour. Shop assistants ignore you. You are in the way.
And if they have any question, they'll ask the person pushing rather than you direct. "What's his/her name?" Why don't you ask him/her yourself? (Sorry I can't help but to respond to this.)
I've always been who I am. From day one I had an awareness of being different, not fitting my assigned gender. The rest of life from there has been a journey, trying to understand this unique gift, and how best to manifest it.
I loved Beautiful Boxer, it's a powerful movie!
Z
Quote from: Natasha on September 26, 2009, 06:27:53 AM
agreed. to say "i'm a woman" when you have never lived as a woman is a little bit of a stretch, wouldn't cha say?
Is it also a stretch to say "I'm a man" if are not mentally, and have lived pretty much none of your adult life as one?
If there is such a thing as brainsex, then the notion that you've always been your mental gender may in fact be literally true.
I have never felt like a guy, I'm not even entirely sure what it's like. So is it really more accurate to say I'm a male?
Man and woman, those words and concepts are social constructs. Both roles have a set of stereotypes and parameters that dictate in which one you fit or are being set by the society.
Its might not the same among different cultures. As for example being a woman in America its not the same in some Arabian countries.
Being male or female its part of your gender. So if you know your gender its female, I believe its correct for you to say you are female. Even if your body isnt exactly femalish.
Quote from: zelaneMan and woman, those words and concepts are social constructs. Both roles have a set of stereotypes and parameters that dictate in which one you fit or are being set by the society.
Its might not the same among different cultures. As for example being a woman in America its not the same in some Arabian countries.
Being male or female its part of your gender. So if you know your gender its female, I believe its correct for you to say you are female. Even if your body isnt exactly femalish.
agreed again. i can understand when someone says "i've always been female", "my gender identity is female" or 'i self-identify as female" but to say you're "a woman" [a social construct], when in reality you aren't, is deceptive imo.
"i'm a woman" really? are you "a woman" socially? do you live, work, go to school, etc as "a woman"?
QuoteAll agree in recognising the fact that females exist in the human species; today as always they make up about one half of humanity. And yet we are told that femininity is in danger; we are exhorted to be women, remain women, become women. It would appear, then, that every female human being is not necessarily a woman; to be so considered she must share in that mysterious and threatened reality known as femininity.
QuoteOne is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.
Just saying (or, actually, quoting, in this case).
To answer the original question, I NEVER chose to be a woman or even female.
Maybe the answer would be "When did you decide to become a man?" I know that it doesn't answer the question. I have figured out that I never considered myself a "man" in all of my adult life. So what am I? And how did I get here? I am working on that. Slightly off topic. Sorry. DyLen
In the book Transgender History, Susan Stryker defines man and woman as gender roles, and male and female as physical manifestations. So based on that idea, the question seems to me at least to be not all that off-base.
At a genetic level, the person would still have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome. This would seem to indicate that at that low level, the person would still be male even if the anatomy had been corrected to the proper gender as experienced by the person.
But, that's just me.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 28, 2009, 01:20:13 PM
In the book Transgender History, Susan Stryker defines man and woman as gender roles, and male and female as physical manifestations. So based on that idea, the question seems to me at least to be not all that off-base.
At a genetic level, the person would still have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome. This would seem to indicate that at that low level, the person would still be male even if the anatomy had been corrected to the proper gender as experienced by the person.
But, that's just me.
So then, by that reasoning, people with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are also "at that low level" men? Despite being at every practical level women, to the point that had we not been this scientifically advanced, we'd have little reason to suspect they were in ANY level male?
I just have to question putting so much stock in chromosomes. Why are they the defacto "official" definition of male vs female, when they're easily one of the least practically differential traits.
My guess is that the chromosome thing is related to fact ova and spermatazoa are needed to reproduce. At that level, the binary seems to be supported. Generally, a person with two X chromosomes produces ova and a person with one each X and Y chromosomes produces spermatazoa.
That said, there are persons who are born with two X and one Y chromosomes.
At least according to Stryker, man and woman are roles. Male and female are biology.
Often the form of the question tells a lot about the questioner.
I was born male. I always considered myself male but never a man. Since age 3 or 4 I knew I should be a girl/woman/female but knew I wasn't. I am now working on becoming as much of a woman as I can be, but in some ways I think I will always be what I have always been - something other than man or woman. To say that I have always been a woman doesn't make sense to me (to me), because I had a male body and lived pretending to be a man for many years and now have to go through the difficult process of transition that natal women do not.
Now, if the question was: When did you decide to try to align your presentation and role in society with who you really are? - that would show some understanding. ;)
- Kate
Quote from: GinaDouglas on September 26, 2009, 01:35:38 AM
I was watching a transgender theme movie (Beautiful Boxer)today, and a reporter asked the transwoman, "When did you first decide you wanted to become a woman?"
I thought this was perfectly appropos of the way ->-bleeped-<- is misunderstood by the mainstream.
The proper query would be, "When did you first realize that your body was the wrong gender?"
There is no "becoming" women. We always were female.
There is no decision, there is only recognition and/or acceptance.
I know this is an old thread but I hear similar discussions frequently. It sounds like the reporter meant when did the transwoman decide she wanted to live her life as the gender she felt on the inside, as opposed to hiding it or conforming or just living with the inside not matching the outside.
If you really pick it apart then yeah its phrased incorrectly, but I don't think its that bad of a question and I hope it wasn't responded to negatively.
Hi. Cindy .
When your brought up with sickness in your family you dont think about these details you just accept they are there & you get on with life . that does not make it any easyer so you do the best you can with what you have ,& yes i sure relate with you & yes its not easy at all. & yes i have those down days .
As to wonting to be a woman . no i never did because i was / am one in the making . the ? is am i there. no & nore will i because im both male / female .
Tho im accepted as a woman & thats neat i can never be a full one , & really it does not matter because im happy being who i am just the same.
...noeleena...
I never decided to become a woman, or female depending on your point of view, my decision was to hide what I felt I was. This was the worst decision I have ever made in my life & trust me i've made a fair few doozies.
In the end I just couldn't bear hiding this any longer & had to be honest with both myself & those around me no matter the consequences.
Surely the question should have been: When did you realise you couldn't hide who you are any longer?
When did you realize that you had to be what you were and admit that resistance was futile?
There are three phases of my life where the thought of wanting to be female arises, i.e. around 7, 25, and 43.
At 25, in 1992 that thought was not fruitful, as there was lack of external motivating factor and resources. At 43, in 2010, things were different, with the help of internet, I can reviewed the experiences of people who went through the process of transition, and resources on HRT has become available. These were the excellent, external motivating factor contributing to the fruition of that thought.
As for the term "becoming woman" is not very appropriate, as mentally speaking, there is no "becoming", only accepting the feminine aspect, instead of opposing it as we used to when in the male mode of being. In physical aspect, HRT helps in a limited way of transformation, added with makeup, feminine wear and accessories, are also due to our accepting these elements, to match our feminine mode of being.
Yeah I hate when people phrase it that way. I always rephrase it when answering
To answer the question as it was stated, "When I realized how horrid it would be living as a male considering my dysphoria related to my body and expected gender role."
Perhaps the question isn't so wrong for all of us.
Quote from: Virginia Marie on September 26, 2009, 01:53:25 AM
I thought I was a girl as a child. Then one day my mom and sisters pointed out that I was different. I was dis-made. It was at that moment I wanted to change this curse that had been placed upon me.
I don't have sisters, but this is very well put.
Maybe it helps when you say... " That's deep man! I dont know, when did you first decide to become a man /woman?"
lol
Quote from: CindyJames on September 26, 2009, 03:58:38 AM
" What was it like realising you didn't have legs?"
That question I would understand....I would not mind if anyone asked me... what's it like to be transgender.
The problem is most people ask us: "When did you first choose for your handicap" lol.
That's actually pretty offensive... but trying to explain it can make it worse even lol...
Quote from: Birgitta on March 29, 2011, 05:06:54 AM
That question I would understand....I would not mind if anyone asked me... what's it like to be transgender.
The problem is most people ask us: "When did you first choose for your handicap" lol.
That's actually pretty offensive... but trying to explain it can make it worse even lol...
I'd sort of forgotten this post.
My wife is totally disabled and I get the 'don't talk to the wheelchair' a lot of times. I think I was approaching my comment from that point of view, being rude to a person or group is an option. Since it is a behavioural option it can be modified. Ignoring or insulting by ignoring another human being, because they are different to you, or your beliefs, is at best crass, but is also usually symptomatic of a deformed ability to socially interact. We see examples in the News stories here regularly.
I agree with your comment but wanted to clarify mine.
Cindy
Some gender specialists ask questions like this to sort of test you.
Hi . Gina.
I knew at age 10 not so much as youv said, had to be . & resistance. that never happened for me ,
in the way you mean . & i did not change from one to the other , & i know some wont fully understand this.
Because when you are that mix What can you change I know i have a freedom i never had before in how i express my self , I know that comes over as female yet i still have that male side of who i am.
& yes i express that as well tho not as much as i have ,
The male / female for me is so closely linked together i only see my self as one whole not seperated ,
i was not hideing my inner self or the real me just i was not able to express the all of who i am, yet was i hideing my inner emotions . it was more about how people perceived me , mind you i never said any thing ,
hence my being a loner for most of my life. not any more ,
Birgitta,
, I do have some handycaps & i v made them well & truely known , its not who i am as a person ,if it means being up front with people then i am,
...noeleena...