hi
I have read here that transsexual have things in common, i dont mean things due to hormones, but psychological and physical, which exist even before hrt, is this true, is there any thing special about our communication with other people, can you tell
Quote from: ifonlyican14 on November 05, 2009, 08:26:18 AM
hi
I have read here that transsexual have things in common, i dont mean things due to hormones, but psychological and physical, which exist even before hrt, is this true, is there any thing special about our communication with other people, can you tell
Gawd, if it were that easy!
Discounting intersex births for the moment, there really isn't any physical manifestation that shows (like a third eye, or something). If there were, it would be much easier to diagnose being TS. If you are intersex, there may be some physical manifestation, such as ambiguous genitalia.
However, regardless of our physical body, within ourselves, we know. Usually from an early age, that there is something really, really wrong with our body. Many describe it as knowing that you are the opposite sex from your birth gender. For me it was a constant discomfort until I started to learn the differences between girls and boys.
It is that discomfort, that knowing that we are not who we seem to be, that is the real factor. And it exists before any other change, including puberty.
These are generalizations of course, but it is a good outline.
-Sandy
Psychological yes, physical no.
Quote from: ifonlyican14 on November 05, 2009, 08:26:18 AM
hi
I have read here that transsexual have things in common, i dont mean things due to hormones, but psychological and physical, which exist even before hrt, is this true, is there any thing special about our communication with other people, can you tell
It's true to a very limited degree.
As the other two posters have said, there's no 100% sure physical marker you can simply check for and say "yep, transsexual" or "nope, definitely not, you must have something else wrong with you".
However a few studies have shown a few traits that are more common in the TS population than the general population.
The most commonly referenced one is this...
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034 (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034)
It has a pretty limited sample size though, and can't be checked for until you're dead because medical imaging technology isn't accurate enough (they have to cut apart your brain and actually "look" :o)
There's this one which suggests a potential common gene link...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm)
I get the sense you're looking for something a bit more tangible though, in that case the best we have (and it's not very good) is...
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TBX-4H16P9S-1/2/ae91dff18b1b99385054e3bf971d47f9 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TBX-4H16P9S-1/2/ae91dff18b1b99385054e3bf971d47f9)
Which suggests a correlation between the 2d:4d ratio (basically your index fingers size compared to your ring fingers) suggesting a possible relation with prenatal hormone levels.
So, there are a few things that are more common in the TS community than they are for the average, but nothing proven to be a cause or certainty conclusively.
I've been in rooms full of TS folks, and no, there is not a physical "link". For us, it is in the head ;D
Recent medical advancements in imaging have led to new studies (in the last 5 years) showing functional differences between the typical male brain and the typical female brain of living subjects, differences in the way the brain processes information. Small numbers of transsexual patients have been included in these clinical studies and indications have been that transsexuals exhibit brain activity patterns consistent with their "target sex".
Other recent works by psychologists have highlighted developmental differences between boys and girl which is also consistent with the concept of "different wiring".
Much of the recent findings of the differences is very unpopular with feminists and "the politically correct crowd" because of the fear it will be used to justify discrimination. (People just don't understand that "different" doesn't mean better or worse.)
Do a little research on "gender development" and "gender differentiation".
One day in the future it may be possible to test a child with MRI to determine the psychological gender long before the child is able to express it verbally.
Quote from: Sandy on November 05, 2009, 08:58:27 AM
Gawd, if it were that easy!
there really isn't any physical manifestation that shows (like a third eye, or something). If there were, it would be much easier to diagnose being TS.
-Sandy
What!! You mean the rest of you here don't have that "T" stamped in your forehead like I do? lol! Crap! I wonder what it means then............... ???
Dawn
Quote from: Dawn D. on November 06, 2009, 12:08:00 PM
What!! You mean the rest of you here don't have that "T" stamped in your forehead like I do? lol! Crap! I wonder what it means then............... ???
Dawn
I do, but mine is on the inside...
-Sandy
Some one mentioned something about Crocadile Dundee in another similar thread...
Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 06, 2009, 02:04:11 PM
Some one mentioned something about Crocadile Dundee in another similar thread...
Yeah, I did. "If you got a problem, you tell Wally. He tells everyone in town, brings it out in the open, no more problem.."
As far as us being alike, I suppose you could say two people who have been locked up in a cell for a couple of decades for a crime they didn't commit have something in common. If nothing else, we have that in common.
Julie
Jane,
I have a hard time trusting the results of fMRI studies in general. Perhaps it's just because my field of study uses similar instruments as are used in medical imaging (indeed, many of them were invented for use in my field; it's one of our "killer apps"); we have enormous difficulties teasing out real effects from noise and bias in the analysis. FMRI studies seem to be equally susceptible to these difficulties, and for similar reasons.
Additionally, there is a huge question of interpretation. Any brain differences after a very young age might well be attributed to socialization; even in the case of trans people, it is possible that at a very young age, children raised in one gender identify with the other, and that this might provide a different kind of socialization.
So for me it's not so much a question of being politically correct, but scientifically -- and in my field, "scientifically correct" means a five sigma effect in a blind analysis, even with far fewer questions of causation.
But it doesn't matter. The existence of trans people means that gender differences are real and almost certainly innate. But those differences are ones that cut to the heart of the deepest questions of identity, perception, and consciousness. They aren't questions that lend themselves to simple answers. In the end, what matters is not root causation, but lived experience.
Quote from: ifonlyican14 on November 05, 2009, 08:26:18 AM
hi
I have read here that transsexual have things in common, i dont mean things due to hormones, but psychological and physical, which exist even before hrt, is this true, is there any thing special about our communication with other people, can you tell
Unfortunitely, the physical signs are only too clear if male puberty has developed but psychological signs could and do appear a lot earlier in early childhood in many of us.
Then there's the good ol' standby, just ask them flat out and guage their reaction. No harm, no foul.
Quote from: Sandy on November 05, 2009, 08:58:27 AM
Gawd, if it were that easy!
Discounting intersex births for the moment, there really isn't any physical manifestation that shows (like a third eye, or something). If there were, it would be much easier to diagnose being TS. If you are intersex, there may be some physical manifestation, such as ambiguous genitalia. ... <SNIP>
-Sandy
Hello Sandy.
"Ambiguous Genitalia" Careful there... See this from the Intersex Society of North America:
http://www.isna.org/faq/ambiguous (http://www.isna.org/faq/ambiguous)
QuoteIs intersex the same as "ambiguous genitalia"?
No, saying someone has an intersex condition isn't the same as saying she or he was born with "ambiguous genitalia," because some people with intersex conditions have genitalia that look pretty typically masculine or feminine. So, for example, girls born with XY chromosomes and complete androgen insensitivity syndrome have genitals that look pretty typically female. And some children born with XX chromosomes and congenital adrenal hyperplasia are born with genitals that look thoroughly male. Yet nearly all medical professionals agree that these kinds of conditions are intersex.
Why do we put the term "ambiguous genitalia" in quotation marks? We don't particularly like the term since, as our Medical Advisory Board member Dr. William Reiner likes to point out, no child thinks his or her own genitals are "ambiguous." They're just their genitals. It's the grown-ups who are feeling ambiguous.
:)
-={LR}=-
Quote from: ifonlyican14 on November 05, 2009, 08:26:18 AM
hi
I have read here that transsexual have things in common, i dont mean things due to hormones, but psychological and physical, which exist even before hrt, is this true, is there any thing special about our communication with other people, can you tell
Sometimes there are quirks, yes... I would have to say. There are some people who just look... Wrong in their birth gender. Might be just cause I'm predisposed but I'm not just talking about how they carry themselves... I'm talking about the air they have about them and their bodies...
But its not like... ALL transsexuals have one thing in common. I think that our issues all have similar treatment, but that doesn't make the origins of who we are all the same (sometimes probably even a combination when we're developing)...
Not that I'm actually trying to make anyones claims less legitimate, cause thats BS. I'm just saying that there are ALWAYS exceptions.
Quote from: Ladyrider on November 09, 2009, 06:39:26 PM
Hello Sandy.
"Ambiguous Genitalia" Careful there... See this from the Intersex Society of North America:
http://www.isna.org/faq/ambiguous (http://www.isna.org/faq/ambiguous)
:)
-={LR}=-
Thanks, LR, I had missed that. Gender is a spectrum, not a binary. I do admit that I was generalizing. I will try to be more precise in future.
-Sandy
There is a little more discussion on this topic here:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,32265.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,32265.0.html)
I can't find the earlier thread about the arm carrying angle. I guess it aged off.
FWIW I have the girly elbow deal (my arms pop out from my sides when I rotate my arms and have my palms facing forward), and yes, I threw like a girl, which really didn't work out to well when I was in little league.
I have the arm-angle thing too, but IMHO the whole source of that thread was a lot of hokey mumbo jmbo.
But as far as physical things go, there aren't really unifying characteristics. I'm pretty lucky in that my body is already feminine shaped in a lot of ways, but there are plenty of us who don't have that fortune, as well as many who could pass easily without ever needing hormones.
Quote from: Ketsy on November 10, 2009, 04:39:33 PM
the whole source of that thread was a lot of hokey mumbo jmbo
I remember that, it was one of the most obscene loads of self serving crap I've ever heard. Doesn't everybody have that arm thing? I thought that's just how skeletons are built. It made me so mad I had to spend a week in the corner gnawing my ankle before I was presentable to the public again.
A lot of transwomen just seem more feminized than normal biomales.
Same with transmen (well backwards.)
So no definite thing but it seems pretty common to me.
Quote from: Becca on November 10, 2009, 04:44:33 PM
I remember that, it was one of the most obscene loads of self serving crap I've ever heard. Doesn't everybody have that arm thing? I thought that's just how skeletons are built. It made me so mad I had to spend a week in the corner gnawing my ankle before I was presentable to the public again.
The angle between my upper and lower arms when fully extended is outside the female norm, and within the male norm; and my elbow doens't have the range of motion (in terms of extension) that most women have. So, to answer your question, no, not everyone has that. But I agree it was a somewhat unfortunate discussion. It's kind of a cop-out: it's a way of saying, "Hey, look, i'm not crazy! Some bona fide
scientest measured me, and so you can see it's inevitable that I would be trans!"
C'mon, people, gird up now thy loins like a transsexual! Grow a pair of ill-suited gonads, and figure out what you gender is without the intervention of some compass- and protractor-wielding nerd!
when people tell a TS that 'she is just like a real woman!' with some awe and surprise in their voices she knows she is different.
when a person decides to transition and start hormones and gives everyone the effect of being a teenage girl going through a natural puberty its easy to see that the BSTc brain idea is true.
when a person takes hormones and apart from getting boobs and probably general fatness but doesn't go through that joyful transition like a normal young girl and ends up giving everyone the impression of being a crossdresser with no femaleness then you know that person is not TS as Harry benjamin knew it
Help me understand what you mean Lilac. That's an interesting study, sure. As I recall it was done by LeVay, cohort of Ray Blanchard...but dirty names aside we can't discredit the value of the "nurture" factor here. Just because the "nature" factor might be in order hardly means the proper transition is going to be the same for everyone because the rest of the brain is involved too and won't be ignored. As I remember they did find parts similar to genetic women, but the one transsexual who hadn't been on hormones for a while did have a slightly larger BTSc, and others have had a hard time replicating the data. I might be wrong, I've been so wrapped up in regular brain physiology and crap for the last year that I haven't had the time or energy to keep up on current trans research.
Quote from: Becca on November 16, 2009, 11:51:25 AM
Help me understand what you mean Lilac. That's an interesting study, sure. As I recall it was done by LeVay, cohort of Ray Blanchard...but dirty names aside we can't discredit the value of the "nurture" factor here. Just because the "nature" factor might be in order hardly means the proper transition is going to be the same for everyone because the rest of the brain is involved too and won't be ignored. As I remember they did find parts similar to genetic women, but the one transsexual who hadn't been on hormones for a while did have a slightly larger BTSc, and others have had a hard time replicating the data. I might be wrong, I've been so wrapped up in regular brain physiology and crap for the last year that I haven't had the time or energy to keep up on current trans research.
As I understand it, there are now two separate studies, the 2nd one including a lot of controls to eliminate many of the flaws of the first, but came up with the same conclusions.
Quote from: Becca on November 16, 2009, 11:51:25 AM
Help me understand what you mean Lilac. That's an interesting study, sure.
Study? What study! It's my own personal observations over many years verified by most of the natural women I know.
Re: physical characters that identifies transsexual?
Bodyshape, bone structure, hip ratio, pelvic ratio, voice, forehead, height (in some cases), position of eye sockets, male hairline (in some cases), hand size (in some cases),
upper body mass compared to lower body mass (in some cases), adams apple (in some cases) .etc...etc..etc..
I think the question was about comparing people pre-transition to the norms of their assigned gender, and whether there are any physical differences there.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on November 18, 2009, 06:41:46 AM
Re: physical characters that identifies transsexual?
Bodyshape, bone structure, hip ratio, pelvic ratio, voice, forehead, height (in some cases), position of eye sockets, male hairline (in some cases), hand size (in some cases),
upper body mass compared to lower body mass (in some cases), adams apple (in some cases) .etc...etc..etc..
That you mean identify a trans from the norm after ttherapy? ^^
I'd add "(in some cases)" everywhere btw, Kim Petras and some others are perfect examples of where hips, voice, forehead, bone structure, and everything else are perfectly normal.
Eyes? what O_o many people, male, trans, all, have feminine eyes and eyes sockets position and whatever..
There are men with gynacoid pelvis, they are not trans, it happens.
20% of women have android pelvis.
http://www.gfmer.ch/Obstetrics_simplified/anatomy_of_the_female_pelvis.htm (http://www.gfmer.ch/Obstetrics_simplified/anatomy_of_the_female_pelvis.htm)
Near the end:
Quote
Four types of female pelves were described. Actually, the majority of pelves are of mixed types:
Gynaecoid pelvis(50%):
It is the normal female type.
Inlet is slightly transverse oval.
Sacrum is wide with average concavity and inclination.
Side walls are straight with blunt ischial spines.
Sacro-sciatic notch is wide.
Subpubic angle is 90-100o.
Anthropoid pelvis (25%):
It is ape-like type.
All anteroposterior diameters are long.
All transverse diameters are short.
Sacrum is long and narrow.
Sacro-sciatic notch is wide.
Subpubic angle is narrow.
Android pelvis (20%):
It is a male type.
Inlet is triangular or heart-shaped with anterior narrow apex.
Side walls are converging (funnel pelvis) with projecting ischial spines.
Sacro-sciatic notch is narrow.
Subpubic angle is narrow <90o.
Platypelloid pelvis (5%):
It is a flat female type.
All anteroposterior diameters are short.
All transverse diameters are long.
Sacro-sciatic notch is narrow.
Subpubic angle is wide.
Uhmmm,
What "myself" said! I think? Huh?? English please.
Gynaecoid pelvis(50%):
It is the normal female type.
Inlet is slightly transverse oval.
Sacrum is wide with average concavity and inclination.
Side walls are straight with blunt ischial spines.
Sacro-sciatic notch is wide.
Subpubic angle is 90-100o.
I want all that!
I think. I mean, what the @#%& is an inlet with a slightly transverse oval? And do I want a wide Sacro-sciatic notch?
Oh, who knows. Well, I do. I know I'm in way over my head, and should have known when to stay out.
SusanKG
Loaded questions, God bless a Milk Cow, especially the Strawberry flavoured one's. Everyone has an answer to these flb's, & I will read every little one!
Quote from: Myself on November 19, 2009, 01:05:17 AM
That you mean identify a trans from the norm after ttherapy? ^^
I'd add "(in some cases)" everywhere btw, Kim Petras and some others are perfect examples of where hips, voice, forehead, bone structure, and everything else are perfectly normal.
Eyes? what O_o many people, male, trans, all, have feminine eyes and eyes sockets position and whatever..
That's an unfair example of someone who started HRT before puberty kicked in!
Yes, I must agree that I can not dissagree that this thread was supposed to be about the normal features of the normal TS people, maybe even those one's who are afflicted with being very old.
Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 21, 2009, 08:32:11 AM
Yes, I must agree that I can not dissagree that this thread was supposed to be about the normal features of the normal TS people, maybe even those one's who are afflicted with being very old.
My point was that not many people are 12 when they start HRT. Obviously examples of pre puberty transsexuals have more feminine atributes. But unfortunitely many of us have already hit some form of puberty before we started our transition.
If we're talking about post-transition, I think the lack of gender-appropriate sex organs and karyotype are the most obvious and reliable, if imperfect and invisible, indicators of being trans.
But occasionally there is a thread around here that's not about passing, and I thought this was one of them. I thought this was about being in the closet.
I though it was about how to tell the difference between TS & other people.
Post Merge: November 21, 2009, 05:51:34 PM
Quote from: ifonlyican14 on November 05, 2009, 08:26:18 AM
hi
I have read here that transsexual have things in common, i dont mean things due to hormones, but psychological and physical, which exist even before hrt, is this true, is there any thing special about our communication with other people, can you tell
so ... yeah.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on November 21, 2009, 07:21:22 AM
That's an unfair example of someone who started HRT before puberty kicked in!
Well, there are still differences that I disagree with you on (eyes? eyesockets?)
But yeah, general differences are hips, body size and skull (unless surgery fixed it or was really lucky)
I don't know, i have very small bones, especially hands and wrists, but i havent transitioned yet, i don't know
any other ts, but i don't think it's a coincidence. I mean, in never felt that manly, because i wasn't built like a "real man".
I think it's too simple to put all the causes of GID into our brain.
Quote from: Sandra90 on November 22, 2009, 05:45:14 AMI think it's too simple to put all the causes of GID into our brain.
I agree. But some are archetypal men and women before hrt/ffs/whatever and it does indeed all seem to be in their heads.
Really case by case thing, transsexuality is. Some seem to have a hormonal imbalance and others seem to be rather normal and yet still insist on being assigned the wrong sex. How confusing.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on November 21, 2009, 05:25:55 PM
But occasionally there is a thread around here that's not about passing, and I thought this was one of them. I thought this was about being in the closet.
This thread is about physical characteristics that identify a transsexual, which I suppose is a product of looking physically male. If a transsexual is not easily identified as male their physical characteristics are more identifiable as female.
This discussion started off in an interesting direction, but I can't figure out what the heck we are talking about now. Is it hypothalamuses (sp), arms, pelvises, closets...
Hippopatamisses?!?!
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on November 22, 2009, 07:58:56 AM
This thread is about physical characteristics that identify a transsexual, which I suppose is a product of looking physically male. If a transsexual is not easily identified as male their physical characteristics are more identifiable as female.
The O.P. specified
pre-hrt.
Of course pre-hrt transsexual women look like men. The question is whether there are any physical markers that might
differentiate them from cissexual males. Such things might include arm angles, chirality of the scalp hair whorl, particular brain structures, and finger lenth ratios, all things that might have some correlation with intrauterine hormonal levels at the point when gender identity is formed (in any generic brain-sex theory), rather than post-natal levels.
I don't know of any similar studies regarding trans men.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on November 22, 2009, 03:40:13 PM
The O.P. specified pre-hrt.
Of course pre-hrt transsexual women look like men. The question is whether there are any physical markers that might differentiate them from cissexual males. Such things might include arm angles, chirality of the scalp hair whorl, particular brain structures, and finger lenth ratios, all things that might have some correlation with intrauterine hormonal levels at the point when gender identity is formed (in any generic brain-sex theory), rather than post-natal levels.
I don't know of any similar studies regarding trans men.
Pre HRT or years on HRT it often makes no difference. The majority unfortunitely do have physical characteristics that identifies them as transsexual. I'm not excluded either much to my frustration of being on HRT for a decade.
That's irrelevant. The social difference matters greatly. Pre-hrt generally mean pre-transition. Hence:
The comparison the OP was after is between pre-hrt trans women (mtf) and cis men.
Or pre-hrt trans men (ftm) and cis women.
Not between post-hrt trans women and cis women.
Nor post-hrt trans men and cis men.
Could you identify a 23 year old trans woman with a short masculine haircut and a hint of five-o'clock shadow, wearing a suit and tie? Might there be anything about her that would tell you that she is a month away from getting her therapist to write her a letter for hrt, and is starting laser treatment for her facial hair tomorrow? If you had access to all the medical imaging and tests the world has to offer, could you determine she was trans? Or even guess there was a higher probablility of it, based simply on her physiology?
Or would you just assume she was a man, no matter what medical information was available?
Dunno if this was said already, but I read somewhere that there's a link between left-handedness and being trans. It's true in my case, but obviously it's not gonna be true for all. (My dad's left handed...and he is a little effeminate but def. identifies as male) So idk.
Hmmm,
left-handed here, from the stone-age when they tried hard to change that. That indoctrination didn't work either! ;D
SusanKG
Quote from: Aaron Chris on November 22, 2009, 05:56:29 PM
Dunno if this was said already, but I read somewhere that there's a link between left-handedness and being trans. It's true in my case, but obviously it's not gonna be true for all. (My dad's left handed...and he is a little effeminate but def. identifies as male) So idk.
I'm completely screwed up in this regard. Some things I naturaly do left, some right, & none equally well with both.
Quote from: SusanKG on November 22, 2009, 06:01:17 PM
Hmmm,
left-handed here, from the stone-age when they tried hard to change that. That indoctrination didn't work either! ;D
SusanKG
Hmm. I have a friend who was born lefty, but was made right-handed in kindergarden. (He's 15 - I didn't know they were doing that so recently!) He's also THE most effeminate guy I know... weird.
Quote from: Aaron Chris on November 22, 2009, 05:56:29 PM
Dunno if this was said already, but I read somewhere that there's a link between left-handedness and being trans. It's true in my case, but obviously it's not gonna be true for all. (My dad's left handed...and he is a little effeminate but def. identifies as male) So idk.
I'm left handed too but would suggest the theory is total nonsense! I know far more right handed TS's!
Well, what the article said was that there was a higher rate of lefties in the trans population. Right-handedness is still higher, because it would take a huge percent change to make it even or have more lefties than righties.
I'm lefty too.
I think the general population is estimated to be approximately 10-25%. There seem to be rising numbers, but it's probably just that they're not forcing everyone into right-handedness anymore in this country for the most part.
Quote from: asfsd4214 on November 16, 2009, 10:31:12 PM
As I understand it, there are now two separate studies, the 2nd one including a lot of controls to eliminate many of the flaws of the first, but came up with the same conclusions.
If you could think really hard and try to remember who did that study I'd br thrilled because i'd love to do a term paper on it. We looked at LeVays study and I picked it apart, so if more btsc data is out there I'd love to see it.
Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 22, 2009, 06:19:31 PM
I'm completely screwed up in this regard. Some things I naturaly do left, some right, & none equally well with both.
Same here, I do some things left handed and some right handed. Can't switch hit though >:(
Quote from: riven_one on November 24, 2009, 07:56:24 PM
Same here, I do some things left handed and some right handed. Can't switch hit though >:(
Me too! I am both left and right handed depending on the task I have to do. I actually use a pen left handed but play the guitar right handed!
But there's no evidence whatsoever to imply that if you are left handed you might develop GD. My sister is also left handed and so are many people in the world who are not GD.
I do everything left handed but play guitar. My lefty dad plays right handed guitar as well. It's how both of us learned, and just way easier, because right handed guitars are easier to find.
i have read that ts have a bright and wide beautiful eyes, is this true, last year i met a very attractive girl, i didnot talk to her, but she was very strange, i felt like i can feel what she feels, and her eyes were very pretty and bright, i looked to her face, maybe i can see remains of manhood, but no thing, the funny thing is my feeling and her eyes, has any one experience something like that ?
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on November 25, 2009, 05:40:13 AM
Me too! I am both left and right handed depending on the task I have to do. I actually use a pen left handed but play the guitar right handed!
But there's no evidence whatsoever to imply that if you are left handed you might develop GD. My sister is also left handed and so are many people in the world who are not GD.
I fret with my left hand, I play piano mostly with my right, I try to brush my teeth with both to get both directions...
Can't really write with my left hand. I'm a good typer though... Assuming I have energy.
Quote from: ifonlyican14 on November 30, 2009, 05:09:04 PM
i have read that ts have a bright and wide beautiful eyes, is this true, last year i met a very attractive girl, i didnot talk to her, but she was very strange, i felt like i can feel what she feels, and her eyes were very pretty and bright, i looked to her face, maybe i can see remains of manhood, but no thing, the funny thing is my feeling and her eyes, has any one experience something like that ?
So you meant post-transition signs after all? Ways to clock trans people? All righty then. I'm sorry I misunderstood.
Eyes are certainly a gender signifier. It has more to do with the bone structure surrounding them than the eyes themselves. Women's eyes tend to be a bit bigger, set a bit farther apart, in a shallower socket, and less shaded by the orbital rim and browridge. Therefore trans women who havent had FFS, if they are read as women, are often seen to have deep or mysterious eyes (described positively); a negative description might be that they are hollow, dark, hooded, etc.
So bright, wide, beautiful eyes would not suggest to me that I was looking at a trans woman. I have heard people say they love trans women's eyes, but I think this is because they seem very expressive within the context of how we read expression on female faces.
I've often wondered about this myself, but I've given up trying to figure it out. Why is it that some of us seem to sail through life seldom if ever getting noticed whilst other, arguably far more attractive and convincing examples seem to have such a torrid time.
I really don't know the answer.
My own physique is, at best, pretty average and I've never had any FFS or other augmentation. Just SRS in 1984. But I honestly can't recall the last time I was read. Indeed now that I am out of stealth I often have a job convincing people that I'm not winding them up when I tell them of my past. Yet others, whom I judge to be far more attractive and convincing than me, seem to have far less luck.
I wish I knew what the reason was. I'm certainly nothing special as you can judge for yourself from these recent shots.
PS. I seldom wear makeup - so these photos show the undoctored raw material so to speak.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2668%2F4149956761_760584a9f4_m.jpg&hash=68186fb797f386121861685a584d65b8bc635364)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2802%2F4149908317_63b99d48d5_m.jpg&hash=3a007a576e8dc7887f28408fa6e5581efb45e084)
eyes differences? other than the orbital rim, not in the slightest!
The thing is, big eyes are seen as attractive feminine things, yet, far from all woman have them!
Men with small eyes? break the myth! many men with big eyes, sometimes they look more closed due to the orbital rims.
It might be that bug eyes are more COMMON in women than in men, but doubtfully that by much.
Another thing is that men usually have big faces, so even if their eyes is the same size, the squares big face hides them.
Look at the women in the shopping centers, so many have small eyes and use make up to make them appear bigger.
Even those with average eyes will enlarge them a bit with make up.
Some here are lucky some are less.