In the interest of providing interesting topics to discuss over the Thanksgiving dinner try this one out. Wear a helmet.
Recent studies seem to bear out that the less religious people are, the happier they are, and the less religious the society is, the more prosperous it is.
Using existing data, Paul combined 25 indicators of societal and economic stability — things like crime, suicide, drug use, incarceration, unemployment, income, abortion and public corruption — to score each country using what he calls the "successful societies scale." He also scored countries on their degree of religiosity, as determined by such measures as church attendance, belief in a creator deity and acceptance of Bible literalism.
Comparing the two scores, he found, with little exception, that the least religious countries enjoyed the most prosperity. Of particular note, the U.S. holds the distinction of most religious and least prosperous among the 17 countries included in the study, ranking last in 14 of the 25 socioeconomic measures.
Scandinavian countries, in particular, have achieved high levels of economic strength and social stability, and yet the influence of religion there is in steep decline, perhaps the lowest in recoded history. Coincidence or not, those countries also rank among the world's happiest populations.
The short take:
http://www.alternet.org/belief/144174/is_belief_in_god_hurting_america (http://www.alternet.org/belief/144174/is_belief_in_god_hurting_america)
The full study from Evolutionary Psychology:
http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP07398441_c.pdf (http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP07398441_c.pdf)
The pervasiveness of religious beliefs in American is what is leading to the downfall of the Economy and the American Way of life. The Jewish people, then the African-Americans, then the GLB community and now the Trans community have all been the focus of the religious right. We are the ones that are causing the downfall, but it has been proven that when the targeted peoples have been given their due rights the economy seems to grow.
When will they ever learn that it is Community and not Religion that grows a country.
JMHO
Janet
Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 25, 2009, 05:04:05 PM
The pervasiveness of religious beliefs in American is what is leading to the downfall of the Economy and the American Way of life.
US economic policy (i.e. capitalism) might as well be a religion with the amount of faith it requires.
I think that would depend on the religions themselves. Example: When the Christians tried to convert the Pagans it was easy because the Pagans didn't exclude and are/were very open to other religions. They also have less structured rules. Some types of Buddhism are like this as well.
I'd wager it's the religions with the most restriction that can cause issue. Diversity is something I think is a necessity and we need to stop fighting with each other. Sadly, I don't see that happening any time soon or at all.
So true Tristan. Even here we can not agree, except to disagree.
It is the intolerance that cause problems. I have no problem with another beliefs, except when they feel that theirs is the only way. It is the restriction of basic rights that becomes the problem.
Janet
Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 25, 2009, 05:38:20 PM
So true Tristan. Even here we can not agree, except to disagree.
It is the intolerance that cause problems. I have no problem with another beliefs, except when they feel that theirs is the only way. It is the restriction of basic rights that becomes the problem.
Janet
Amen to that.
QuoteI have no problem with another beliefs, except when they feel that theirs is the only way.
When people only use beliefs to make decisions the odds are not in their favor compared to those who use reason and good facts. This separates success from failure happiness from depression and the wealthy from the not so well off.
One doesn't need "religion" to have a god.
I think the problem is restrictive religions, not the gods of those religions.
As in, it's the whole "this is the only right god!" preached from a pulpit and people accepting it as is, raising their children to believe the same.
There are people who believe in a god(s)/goddess(es) who raise their children to respect all religions. Who don't teach their kids "this is the only way" but that "this is what I believe, here's what else is available, it's up to you".
But that's the thing about people.
As human beings, we hate to be wrong. It's in our system.
So when we're raised to "know" that there's just "one" god and it's commandments are these exact things, when someone doesn't follow what that god (and his spokesmen, the preachers) tell us is the only right way to live, and do just fine, then that indicates that maybe, just maybe, we're wrong. Maybe our god isn't the only one, maybe his commandments aren't "necessary", maybe the spokesmen aren't speaking on his behalf that well, maybe there are more than one ways to live and do just fine.
And to people who do good because they're {Insert Religion Here} not because they're good people, that's a horrible idea. To a lot of people, it means that if there isn't a god that rewards doing good, then people will stop doing good.
Ofcourse, they don't "see" it when good people do good things even if they're not {Insert Religion Here} because that would upset the "fact" that they do good because they Are {Insert Religion Here}.
I taught my kids that religion is a private affair, between them and what faith they choose.
So I have 1 atheist, 2 Christians but not organized religion, 1 who goes to a "free" church and 1 minister, not sure of the other 2.
I think it goes the other way around....chicken or egg I guess...But it seems that once a people are more prosperous there isn't as much of a need, and the political or social state of a people becomes the religion, since that is what most use religion for anyways -political and social means to an end. I always think of what the Tao said about this (ironic hehe sort of). Paraphrasing: when the people don't prosper the armories are stockpiled with weapons, and religion runs rampant.
blood flowing over the turkey? I'll pass thanks!
Interesting links, especially some of the anomalies that stand out too.
History is fascinating.
The founding fathers etc. Left the UK because of religous intolerance. I suppose the question now is Who's?
Cindy
Same old story, one religious sect believes it has a corner on the "truth" market.
Other studies have shows that as a society becomes more educated, the religious beliefs fade out.
Which also would make sense for what they are seeing in this study, since the better educated a society the more likely it will be prosperous.
Keeping people stupid allows for easier manipulation.
Quote from: beth~chella on November 25, 2009, 05:22:35 PM
US economic policy (i.e. capitalism) might as well be a religion with the amount of faith it requires.
And its tied with Christianity for the most bloody religion ever if you really think about it. Its completely faith based and people kill one another over it. I'd consider capitalism a valid religion in this study.
And wow... Atheism is fun. I'm not necessarily an atheist (but I'm... Not Agnostic because I don't believe in a single god per se... I see things as a multiverse, so any religion isn't that easy for me. I don't believe in any constants really.), but its a fun hobby.
if you really think about it. Its completely faith based
Actually, if you really, really, think about it, anything other than a this for that, quid pro quo exchange is an act of faith. Money being really the greatest faith of all, its everybody believing that this one thing (not much different from other similar things) paper and some ink has some incredible value intrinsic to itself. Money - any money, all money, even gold - is only worth something because we all agree to accept that.
Quote from: tekla on November 29, 2009, 01:29:17 PM
if you really think about it. Its completely faith based
Actually, if you really, really, think about it, anything other than a this for that, quid pro quo exchange is an act of faith. Money being really the greatest faith of all, its everybody believing that this one thing (not much different from other similar things) paper and some ink has some incredible value intrinsic to itself. Money - any money, all money, even gold - is only worth something because we all agree to accept that.
True... Although Gold does have its uses in science, the medical community, and other places I'm sure. I'd prefer something USEFUL to have faith in than something USELESS. (The most dirty thing that you can ever imagine; An absorbent piece of paper with a microchip in it carrying everyones germs everywhere, kept in a wallet in their butt pocket. Every dollar bill dirty even LITERALLY. So basically its a piece of paper that you can't even roll to smoke... You can't use it to clean cause its filthy to begin with, you can't eat it, and the illustrations are just TERRIBLE/insulting to the founding fathers, who mostly hated central banks... Maybe they made Andrew Jackson look even wackier just to insult a dead guy... A dead and nutty- genocidal-douche, but a dead nut that was right about SOME things. Lol.)
Oh Kara, that is so horrible. I can feel the distaste from here. So let me help. If you PM me I'll send you my address and you can just mail all that dirty filthy money to me. Better yet, I'll give you my account number and you can just direct deposit it. Yeewhh. I bet you'll fell a lot better when your done.
It's religious supremacists that cause most, if not all, of the problems. "The only right faith is mine" kind of thing.
I don't know the numbers but it would be interesting to see how many people have been killed or tortured in the name of 'god'. The idea that there was even a Holy War makes you wonder about the people who considered this something their god would approve of. But there are people who believe their god wants them to kill anyone who doesn't worship him.
I can see the validity of this study but I'll have to wait for next T-giving cuz I just saw this. Maybe Christmas would be a good time to bring it up? >:-)
I think it's more a "vicious cycle" than a linear cause and effect.
The poorer people are, the more likely they are to turn to religion for comfort.
The more religious people are, the less likely they are to take control of their own life and better it themselves instead of relying on god to fix it for them.
Mind you, some nations have pulled themselves up, inspite of religion.
_
And the side topic of money...
Money's just an IOU.
Being a fallen member of the RCC I can see more clearly now than when I was "on the inside."
When I was growing up I heard a lot of talk about the fear of spending eternity with that guy with the pitchfork. You didn't want to do that! It's way too warm. That fear was supposed to compel people to to do good. But the RCC had a plan: forgiveness. You can do just about anything and god will forgive you so long as you are sorry. Walk into confessional, tell the priest your sins, he'll give you some prayers to say, drop some coin in the box and you're clean. No more hell! If you do things really right, you can even skip purgatory.
Pretty slick.
Anyone who fears hell but has some things to do here that maybe the big guy upstairs might not like can become a member of the RCC and be absolved here before you check out. An entire life of crime can be wiped out with one act of contrition. That's pretty attractive if hell is a problem for you.
But you have to remember that the guy in the box you confessed your sins to knows what you're up to. So you might feel a wee bit uncomfortable next time you see him. That can usually be solved with a nice donation to the church.
I think that's why the RCC has as many members as they do. You get to have your cake and eat it too, as long as you donate generously. ;)