I will start this with I am a believing Christian.
Now I realize that that isn't the most popular position today, especially amoung the transgendered population, but this is a section for Christianity.
I would love to see some positive posts from people who believe. And please, don't bother to repond to this if all you want to do is knock Christianity or promote some other belief system.
Sarah L.
p.s. I write this as a Christian, not a Moderator here at Susans.
I'm not going to knock Christianity, or any other belief system, other than this belief system, the one that says:Now I realize that that isn't the most popular position today. Christianity in the United States is claimed by 77% of the population. Everyone else, who believes anything else, combined, are less than half the number of Christians. That's pretty popular in my book.
Please consider that the Bible is meant to be interpreted allegorically, not literally. For more on this subject, please see my blog:
www.virginiaandbuckspeak.com (http://www.virginiaandbuckspeak.com)
Sorry Virginia, I believe in a Literal Bible. I am not here to fight about it, I will agree there are a "few" places in the Bible that are allegorical, but the majority of it is designed to be read literally. As I asked, this is a thread for positive comments about Christianity.
Sarah L.
The problem with making a thread for "positive comments only" is that it really doesn't go anywhere. Nor is it likely to make people "want" to express positive comments on the subject matter.
As long as everyone is calm, respectful, and doesn't derail the conversation excessively, I don't see why they can't disagree or post comments which can be read as not "positive" specifically.
With that out of the way.
Christianity can be a beautiful religion, especially when one discards those parts of the bible that endorse slavery, abuse of women (and treating them like cattle), and so on. If one focuses solely on the teachings of love and respect of the fellow man, than it's an awesome religion.
Christians however rarely do, even if most of them (every one I've ever met anyhow) do actually cherry pick which aspects they like.
So yeah,.. "The religion" = Not "bad", "Individuals" = Capable of being bad/good.
Sarah- I honor your beliefs. I also respect Christianity in whatever form it is practiced.
Be blessed today.
I am Christian and I am sorry but we cannot discard parts of the Bible we don't like. The Bible is made up of a number of different forms of literature that expresses things about God, humanity and the salvation of God through Jesus Christ. God has used human beings as a medium and uses history, poetry, songs (book of Psalms was a Hebrew song book), Narrative, prose, letters, allegory and more.
There is beauty, there is cruelty, dishonour, honour, faith and lack of faith. It spells out the human condition in all its glory but also in all its badness. Yet through all of this we can find God in all his glory who raises the human spirit from the gutter to glory in Christ.
There is for me no other written work comparable to the Bible. I have read others, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism, I have taught the six major religions. There are parallels in all that one can see and yet I still come back to Christianity. If any one asks, no I was not brought up one.
Blessings in Christ
Stardust
I personally am not a Christian, but I know a transgendered woman who is a Christian.
But, being that you are a Christian, you need to remember that God loves you know matter what. That's always been her philosophy.
Something positive - I really like the New Testament. I still struggle with my beliefs, but the basic message of love comes through and is universal. And there are words of wisdom in there applicable to every situation and every human regardless of belief system.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on December 17, 2009, 10:47:46 AM
Sorry Virginia, I believe in a Literal Bible. I am not here to fight about it, I will agree there are a "few" places in the Bible that are allegorical, but the majority of it is designed to be read literally. As I asked, this is a thread for positive comments about Christianity.
Sarah L.
As a committed Christian I can accept that, to an extent.
Like I suppose many people, I was, for a number of years, not really sure.
I During a short spell in hospital I started to read a copy of Gideon's Bible, mainly because it was all there was.
I suddenly realised that the structure of the Bible, or perhaps the way we read it is the problem.
As a Christian, I take the words of Jesus above all others.
Reading the Gospels I realised that Jesus' message was an affirmation and clarification of the 10 commandment.
He clarified the 3rd by telling us that we must never judge each other. Also that our relationship with God is personal, that we should pray in private.
He clarified the 4th by telling use that we must stop working one day in 7. There is no need to attend a church. But if we do, we should not use it to make an issue.
He told us that what we think is as important as what we do. And so on.
What becomes clear is that Jesus overturned almost all Mosaic law. His clarification of the 3rd commandment means that we are not subject to the judgement of anyone.
His clarification of the 6th commandment, Don't Kill, means that the ultimate sanction is invalid.
Therefore, it has to be concluded that, any prophet or writer who makes any declarations that defy any of the comnmandments, as clarified by Jesus is wrong.
My LDS (Mormon) faith has made a more significant and positive impact on my life than any other single thing. There are still things I struggle with, and still things I do not understand, but I've found that as I live closer to the teachings of the higher law, the better able I am to cope with and made positive decisions in this world day to day. I feel that regular prayer and scripture study have been paramount in my development and as such I rarely miss a morning or an evening to do such.
Overall I feel being a Christian has been very positive - it gives me a strong anchor wherein to give me stability while still allowing me the flexibility to seek truth wherever it can be found.
BTW, I recognize that some people will not consider Mormons Christians, but I personally feel I fit into the Christian heading.
I am thankful that even though God Almighty would give the children of Israel a fiery law that would reveal every aspect of what true holiness and righteousness was in His eyes and make all guilty of sin, that He would send His Son to die to make the atonement for those sins revealed by that law.
And I am thankful that all he requires is an unfeigned faith in that atoning Lamb of sacrifice to be acceptable in His sight. Straight, gay, cisgendered or transgendered.
And also I am thankful that although I be nothing more than a poor Gentile with nothing more to offer than my body, soul and spirit and faith in the blood of atonement, He loved me enough to send His Son to the most gruesome butchering imaginable that I might dwell forever with Him.
I personally am a Christian. I know that this viewpoint is very much the minority here, but I make no apologies. In the New Testament Jesus often challenges the religious establishment because they just did not understand the essence of his teaching, which was always love. Even to the point of Him laying down His life for others. I still don't think the religious establishment today, or many who blindly follow them, understand His message. Sure, the name of the establishment has changed. But the legalism persists. I do not believe that was ever God's ideal. It is all about relationship: A God who created us and loved us enough to do whatever it takes to be with us. In return, we are to offer that same kind of relationship to each other and to the world. That is the essence of the faith, and sadly, the part most overlooked.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
kristy said it perfectly.
What Kristy said.
Also:
As i see it the organized Christian Religion is much more what people take issue with than the teachings.
That results almost entirely from faulty humans "sanctifying" with the mask of theology that which is in fact nothing more than a cultural tradition.
As for the book itself, those who find so much fault with it usually do so because they fail to place it in the proper context.
If we assume, for the sake of the discussion, that it actually is God's revelation to human beings and then look at it logically, you will see things like:
a. the book is honest about the people described. It doesn't have, with only one or two possible exceptions, any examples of abject hero worship. It's a "warts and all" picture of humanity.
b. you have to consider the literary genre and purpose - when a paslmist speaks of dashing the heads of his enemies children against a rock, he's not speaking from God's point of view but from the feelings of a weak and failing human being much like us.
c. consider the audience. for even the most sophisticate human beings, a being powerful enough to create and maintain the universe would HAVE to "dumb down" anything he had to say (one commenter has called the Bible "God's Baby Talk") and that is even more true of the people who lived in the time of Moses and before.
One of my big objection to the literalistic approach to the Creation story - or the Flood story - is this very point. God is trying to explain the creation of the universe to an uneducated former slave wandering in a deasert(not Moses so much but the rest of them) - is he REALLY going into scientific detail that many in the 21st century don't grasp?
Or is he simply going to tell a story that communicates the essential truths about himself that he wishes to communicate?
Likewise, for the critic of the contents of the bible - have you considered that the book is about imparting spiritual lessons, not about justifying slavery or moruder or whatever?
So, to bottom line what I'm saying here - the things that we fault "Christianity" for are things which result from the flaws of human nature. Just like the flaws of politics or any other thing humans get involved in.
the wonderful thing is that christianity can also magnify the better instincts of humans as well. Critics seldom note the incalculable good works that have been done by Christians (the "evil" SBC, for instance, spent and gave tens of millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours to relief work after Katrina - more than any other private entity by a wide margin. I have a lot of disagreements with the church I grew up in, but credit where due)
On balance, I think the faith itself is very worthy of praise - it's only the failings of human nature that currupt the results.
Quote from: Laura Hope on January 06, 2010, 03:14:08 AM
What Kristy said.
Also:
As i see it the organized Christian Religion is much more what people take issue with than the teachings.
That results almost entirely from faulty humans "sanctifying" with the mask of theology that which is in fact nothing more than a cultural tradition.
As for the book itself, those who find so much fault with it usually do so because they fail to place it in the proper context.
If we assume, for the sake of the discussion, that it actually is God's revelation to human beings and then look at it logically, you will see things like:
a. the book is honest about the people described. It doesn't have, with only one or two possible exceptions, any examples of abject hero worship. It's a "warts and all" picture of humanity.
b. you have to consider the literary genre and purpose - when a paslmist speaks of dashing the heads of his enemies children against a rock, he's not speaking from God's point of view but from the feelings of a weak and failing human being much like us.
c. consider the audience. for even the most sophisticate human beings, a being powerful enough to create and maintain the universe would HAVE to "dumb down" anything he had to say (one commenter has called the Bible "God's Baby Talk") and that is even more true of the people who lived in the time of Moses and before.
One of my big objection to the literalistic approach to the Creation story - or the Flood story - is this very point. God is trying to explain the creation of the universe to an uneducated former slave wandering in a deasert(not Moses so much but the rest of them) - is he REALLY going into scientific detail that many in the 21st century don't grasp?
Or is he simply going to tell a story that communicates the essential truths about himself that he wishes to communicate?
Likewise, for the critic of the contents of the bible - have you considered that the book is about imparting spiritual lessons, not about justifying slavery or moruder or whatever?
So, to bottom line what I'm saying here - the things that we fault "Christianity" for are things which result from the flaws of human nature. Just like the flaws of politics or any other thing humans get involved in.
the wonderful thing is that christianity can also magnify the better instincts of humans as well. Critics seldom note the incalculable good works that have been done by Christians (the "evil" SBC, for instance, spent and gave tens of millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours to relief work after Katrina - more than any other private entity by a wide margin. I have a lot of disagreements with the church I grew up in, but credit where due)
On balance, I think the faith itself is very worthy of praise - it's only the failings of human nature that currupt the results.
Good points. Interesting.
"If all the achievements of scientists were wiped out tomorrow, there would be no doctors but witch doctors, no transport faster than horses, no computers, no printed books, no agriculture beyond subsistence peasant farming. If all the achievements of theologians were wiped out tomorrow, would anyone notice the smallest difference?"
Richard Dawkins, The Emptiness of Theology
Faith is a major issue to me. I agree with Kristi that a relationship with the divine is essential. For decades, I thought I had one of those and depended on it for my life decisions. However, since many have turned out to be tragedies, I can't really deal with whoever or whatever it was that I interacted with. I thought it was Jesus but now that the barrage of the hatred towards LBGT people has escalated, I find that I am fearful of Christians. No amount of prayer changes that. So I find myself lost and alone spiritually and have been for about three years. If there is a Jesus, I am sure he hates me now.
Maggie
I accepted Jesus Christ when I was 30, while I attend a local church, my faith does not depend on the local church or its members. My faith and trust will always remain in Jesus Christ, my Savior and Lord.
People will let you down all the time, even Christians (especially Christians because you expect more out of them).
It isn't always easy and yes, I have been hurt at times, discouraged, questioning, lost, but through it all I will trust in my Lord until my death.
Sarah L.
Quote from: Maggie Kay on January 06, 2010, 12:08:37 PM
If there is a Jesus, I am sure he hates me now.
Maggie
Maggie, I had to reply to this. Jesus does not hate you, unfortunately its fallen, frail, and un-spiritual human beings that cause the problem and we stumble in our faith through it. Jesus did say how bad it would be for someone to make a child stumble, it would be better to put a chain around his head and jump into the sea. Such is the agony Jesus feels when he sees one of his children stumble in faith because of some person who thinks they now what God thinks.
I don't want to say things that might seem like platitudes so pm me if you want. Your sister in Christ
Stardust
Quote from: stardust on January 06, 2010, 04:30:05 PM
Maggie, I had to reply to this. Jesus does not hate you, unfortunately its fallen, frail, and un-spiritual human beings that cause the problem and we stumble in our faith through it. Jesus did say how bad it would be for someone to make a child stumble, it would be better to put a chain around his head and jump into the sea. Such is the agony Jesus feels when he sees one of his children stumble in faith because of some person who thinks they now what God thinks.
I don't want to say things that might seem like platitudes so pm me if you want. Your sister in Christ
Stardust
Thank you for your kind words, but I'm way past this kind of thinking now. It has been far too long and too many broken promises. Not even worth discussing any further. I wasn't asking for help with it, just stating that it is my condition.
Maggie
Quote from: tekla on January 06, 2010, 08:55:00 AM
"If all the achievements of scientists were wiped out tomorrow, there would be no doctors but witch doctors, no transport faster than horses, no computers, no printed books, no agriculture beyond subsistence peasant farming. If all the achievements of theologians were wiped out tomorrow, would anyone notice the smallest difference?"
Richard Dawkins, The Emptiness of Theology
The topic is positive things. Find something positive.
Quote from: tekla on January 06, 2010, 08:55:00 AM
"If all the achievements of scientists were wiped out tomorrow, there would be no doctors but witch doctors, no transport faster than horses, no computers, no printed books, no agriculture beyond subsistence peasant farming. If all the achievements of theologians were wiped out tomorrow, would anyone notice the smallest difference?"
Richard Dawkins, The Emptiness of Theology
Dawkins is a twit.
some of the most revered fathers of science were committed believers (often with theological ideas of their own) who's views and motivations descended from the worldview molded by the foregoing theologians.
Dawkins makes the error of assuming no scientists were ever Christians.
I hope this isn't considered negative but I have to agree with Laura.
I have done some study on evolution and have a pretty good grasp of it as a subject.
In a recent interview in the UK's Telegraph, Dawkins made the following comment:
Prof Dawkins expressed dismay at the findings of the ComRes survey, of 2,060 adults, which he claimed were confirmation that much of the population is "pig-ignorant" about science.
"Obviously life, which was Darwin's own subject, is not the result of chance," he said.
"Any fool can see that. Natural selection is the very antithesis of chance.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4410927/Poll-reveals-public-doubts-over-Charles-Darwins-theory-of-evolution.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4410927/Poll-reveals-public-doubts-over-Charles-Darwins-theory-of-evolution.html)
Dawinian evolution is entirely driven by chance. That is its beauty and why if fits so well. Dawkins response here and hos attitudes elsewhere indicate he is quite prepared to bend realities to suit his purpose.
He seems to me to be a rather dangerous and ambitious man.
It's also clear, from reading his writings, that Dawkins attempts to suggest that all Christians believe the Genesis account of creation. He seem to imply that we have a choice between science and Christianty.
Yet the Christian Church, as early as the 2ed century, has accepted Genesus to be an alegory.
Prior to Darwin, it was assumed that life as we see it today, was pretty much what had always existed. How it came into existance was a matter of some discussion.
But it is the creationist notons that are comparitively new, mostly developing in the 1920s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretations_of_Genesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretations_of_Genesis)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_creation-evolution_controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_creation-evolution_controversy)
As a minister once told me, Evolution is how God created everything.
I see I made a mistake starting this thread, it was designed to give other Christians a chance to say how Christianity has effected their life.
Not to disparage Christian beliefs. I'm not interested in Darwin or his theory, I'm not interested in how Christ failed to meet all your needs, etc. I recognize that not many people here are Christians, that's fine. I recognize that many here dislike Christianity, that's fine too.
All that I ask is that those of you who are not Christian refrain from posting, you have other places you can put your disparaging messages.
This thread was placed in the "Christianity" section.
Thank you,
Sarah L.
Sarah, thanks for starting this discussion. I regret that some people did not stick with answering your question. But it was well worth asking.
In a positive light, I am glad that I am not the center of the universe. I do not want that job. The world does not revolve around what breaks I get or who happens to like me, nor do any of those things change who God is. We live in a crazy screwed up world because of what we have chosen to do with it. In Christianity I find a God who understands, a God who celebrates with me, a God who grieves and cries with me, a God who has promised to never leave me alone, a God who has chosen to suffer among us, a God who leads me through my trials rather than out of them. It is not the way of easy answers. It is the way of relationship. It must be cultivated, struggled with, tested, affirmed. But for those who do, something beautiful grows.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
I did say that I was a Christian for most of my life. I had a wonderful relationship with my Lord and Savior but that ended because of being trans. I would like for it to have continued as life without Him is painfully difficult. But for thirty years of my adult life, being a Christian was everything to me, 24/7. I was 100% dedicated, an elder in my church, gave lay sermons, sang in the choir, taught Sunday School, went to weekly Bible study and prayer groups. I evangelized at every opportunity. I too studied the Bible in depth and read many books by learned biblical scholars.
I'm sorry that I can't post a glowing report of how perfect and happy my life was because of being a Christian. It wasn't.
I missed your statement that you only wanted good news stories. Sorry.
Maggie
That's ok Maggie, if anyone says their life is perfect, they are probably lying.
I have had good times and bad times. Churches are far from perfect, they have been know to attack their own much too often. It is up to the individuals to help each other.
While many local churches have turned their backs on us, Jesus hasn't. And my trust and relationship is with Jesus not the local church.
It is hard Maggie, very hard sometimes, words do hurt (sometimes worse than sticks and stones).
Sarah L.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on January 07, 2010, 09:54:12 AM
I see I made a mistake starting this thread, it was designed to give other Christians a chance to say how Christianity has effected their life.
Not to disparage Christian beliefs. I'm not interested in Darwin or his theory, I'm not interested in how Christ failed to meet all your needs, etc. I recognize that not many people here are Christians, that's fine. I recognize that many here dislike Christianity, that's fine too.
All that I ask is that those of you who are not Christian refrain from posting, you have other places you can put your disparaging messages.
This thread was placed in the "Christianity" section.
Thank you,
Sarah L.
I think then, you are looking for specific responses.
I am a throughly committed Christian. This is how my faith has affected my life.
I seek to follow the teachings of Jesus. I don't seek to follow rituals that someone at some time, thought would be rather nice.
But I do seek answers to some of the questions we all ask. Evolution offers a brilliant explaination about how God created life. Newtons theories explain how God created the universe. I look to these as affirmation of God's brialllance.
I accept and respect, that others may take a different view. Many believe the Genesus account. I don't seek to undermine that, simply to lay out the structure of my faith, as revealed to me after reading the words of Jesus.
Perhaps, next time, you might define the narrow limits of what you seek to discuss. Because, in case you didn't realise it, Christianity is very broad.
That was the utter genius of Jesus
Quote from: Kvall on January 07, 2010, 07:51:04 PM
Not because of whether it shows there's a God or not, but because of what it says about God.
Exactly. I wish I had written that.
Quote from: Kvall on January 07, 2010, 07:51:04 PM
Though I must take exception to part of Spacial's earlier post, because to say that evolution is by chance is both true and false. Mutations happen by chance. Natural selection, however, is not by chance. That which is good for the organism is preserved, generation after generation. I am reminded of in the very beginning of Genesis where it repeatedly says, "And God saw that it was good."
Sometime, in an appropriate thread, I would love to discuss this issue with you.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on January 07, 2010, 09:54:12 AM
I see I made a mistake starting this thread, it was designed to give other Christians a chance to say how Christianity has effected their life.
I don't think you made a mistake in starting the thread, but that maybe you could have worded the original post better, asking the specific question of "As a Christian, how has your faith effected your life?" or something to that effect.
I'm sorry the question you wanted the answer to was left unanswered by most, but that may be in part affected by the question not being actually asked directly.
Well Sarah, I have gone back to the OP and it seems quite plain to me that this is for Christians to discuss their lives.
So, here is my two bob's worth-
I am looking more closely at the Orthodox theology as it appears they do not have the concept of Original Sin at all. That should immediately do away with a lot of guilt about the human condition.
I am still only starting to explore this, so don't feel confident in going into detail, but think it is worth looking at if anyone is having problems with their religious affiliations.
Basically as I understand it, Sin is equated with death and the fear of it, so by faith we can remove this. There is a lot more than that, and as the early Church was Greek, there is a lot in there tradition that I will be evaluating.
As to the literal interpretation of the Bible, and giving weight to the Old Testament, I would ask how many of the anti-TS evangelists are circumcised? It is spelled out plainly in Genesis that sons should be circumcised. If people are going to stress the need to take things literally, they better book an Op!
justmeinoz
I apologise if this might feel like interference, but on the concept of original sin may I suggest the following?
After reading the words and teachings of Jesus, I discovered that Original Sin is not sex as we have been led to believe, but defiance.
If you go back to the Genesis story Garden of Edin, you won't find any reference to sex within the context.
I will also point out that Jesus didn't die for our sins. He died because of them. He didn't take away our guilt over original sin, since only we, as individuals can do that.
He died because it was the will of God and even though, we believe, He had the power and ability, to save Himself, he accepted his death as a mark of his submission to God's will.
By dying, Jesus didn't commit original sin, defiance.
Early Christians, who were often horribly persecuted by the Romans, also accepted their fate without question. There are accounts, from contemporary Roman chroniclers, claiming that Christians who were being killed in the arena, went to their deaths, singing.
Each of us can only pray that we can accept the will of God with such grace, trust and humility.
The joy in being a Christian (for me) is knowing that God has me right where I need to be, doing what I need to be doing. I don't always enjoy it, but looking back I can see Gods hand guiding me here and there, and taking care of me. That's where the faith part comes into play.
Finding out that i'm transgendered has really, really changed the way that I think about my relationship with God. I'm still working through that one, but I believe that it is part of Gods plan for my life in some way.
Hello Everyone.
I am a christian as well, would not have it any other way.
Maggie I know of at least one LGBT church in Texas that is open to all and there family's.
It is my belief no matter who you are the Lord is accepting of you, otherwise he would not made us the way we are. I say this because I was born as a transgender person, this is my birth right. I am proud of it too and I know jesus loves me and others like me. He even cares about other persons who have not accepted him.
I am very glad this tread has been started. The main "one thing" that this web site is here for, is a meeting place for all people and there loved ones concerning the transgender world, and the main focal point is so we can help one another. Helping someone is doing the lords work, whether your christian or not, it is just that. As christians on this web site, we do not have to boost about it or try to convert someone, but at least know, there are many here that will readily come to your aid, in your need for conversation about your concerns, or if your seeking for answers, your confused, or your in your darkest hours, know that it might be a christian who is at the other computer with genuine heart felt feelings for you and others and they have not even mentioned it, nor ever would but its in there nature as christians to do just that very thing for a stranger.
Apologies for the necromancy, but just wanted to add my two bits. (I'm also very glad for this thread, and to see other trans Christians here, it's very encouraging :))
I became a Christian nearly two years ago. In that comparitively short time, Jesus has healed most of my old scars. He's given me confidence, shown me what it's like to be truly loved for who I am, and generally been amazing :)
I say "most" of the scars. Because He's cleared so much of the old crap from my heart, He's unearthed this last issue. It's like He's telling me: "You can't ignore this anymore Sarah, this needs dealing with right now." I also had a dream that He was looking down on me, through to the man inside the woman and saying "I think you've been trapped here long enough", then proceeding to reach down and pull him free from her.
One Christian friend that I confided in - so far the only one - advised me to pray that it really is God telling me this is the way to go, but hasn't looked down on me or tried to talk me out of it at all. I'm very lucky that my church does practice what it preaches, and that preaching is of love. We are like a big family which is great, and I hope that when I do come out to the others, they'll give me a more positive response too. It will certainly be interesting.
Since God renewed my faith back in September of 2009 I have had such a wonderful time of getting reacquainted with him. I didn't realize just how lost I truly was and how much of my loneliness was self imposed.
I walked away from Christ because I had become disillusioned with churches and mans book of laws within the church and my family's obstinate belief that I was living in sin. I drifted so far away from God and even denied that there was a God for the longest time. I researched every religion and cult looking for answers and peace but I never found it until I stopped looking with my mind and started looking with my heart and soul.
One afternoon on my way back form my therapist I broke. I called out to God and begged him to just speak to me one more time, and he did. I felt such an overwhelming sensation of love, just like he was sitting right there on the car with me. I began singing and rejoicing driving down US 31 in Indiana and I didn't care what anyone thought of me as the passed.
Since then life has gotten infinitely better and even the rough patches have not been so bad. Life is coming together for me and I know my creator lives.
I actually came in here expecting it to be a hate thread, and I'm very surprised that it's not. :x It seems we get a lot of christian hatred on this board, at least, in my experience.
I was a hater for a long time. It truly is amazing how God can change a heart.
Quote from: The Original Cami on February 22, 2010, 07:28:45 PM
I was a hater for a long time. It truly is amazing how God can change a heart.
I'm not as much of a hater as I am a disbeliever, as I cannot find the logic in it. However, I'm not here to stir up a fuss, and I'm glad that you guys have your own thread to discuss these issues amongst themselves.
Besides, it's pointless to argue, considering both atheists and Christians never give an inch to the other side, it just stirs up strife. You know what I mean?
People that convert are usually on the fence.
/me keeps on swimming past this lovely group think thread.
LOL! Beth, your diversity and independent thinking is just one of the many reasons I love you. Don't ever change anything about yourself that you don't want to.
Quote from: beth~chella on February 22, 2010, 08:01:19 PM
/me keeps on swimming past this lovely group think thread.
Group think!? On a TS forum?!?!
The idea that Christianity is "unpopular" or even "persecuted" - here in the US especially - is absolutely ridiculous. A very large majority of the world population is religious, and of that world population, 1.5-2.5 billion consider themselves Christian - that's between one quarter and one third of the world population, making it the world's largest religion.
I am ethnically and culturally Jewish, and grew up surrounded by a diverse blend of Jews, ranging from haredi (ultra-Orthodox) to Reform (liberal/modern) and Reconstructionist (so liberal/modern they can't seem to decide if they technically believe in God or not). My mother was the president of a large Conservative (in-between Orthodox and Reform) congregation when I was small. I still love to dance Ushavtem Mayim and the Hora, celebrate Hanukkah and Passover, and swear in Yiddish; however, I found (and still find) the religious rules stifling and pointless, and the beliefs make no sense to me.
As far as the best secular Biblical scholars can tell, Jesus was a radical Jewish religious reformer with a message of extreme kindness and forgiveness, communal living, peace, compassion and understanding. He embraced those whom others shunned - prostitutes, Samaritans, tax collectors. He was not a miracle worker, and never claimed to be a mashiach, the son of God, or divine in any way. He never intended to found a religion, and would very likely have abhorred the Pharisaic legalism Christianity tends to embody. There is some debate over whether he preached an apocalypse; it is fairly certain, however, that Christianity was an invention of his successors - particularly St. Paul - not of Yeshua of Nazareth himself.
Jesus was obviously a great man. That being the case, I wish the people who take it upon themselves to follow him would actually follow his teachings. How he died, and whether he was resurrected and now sits at the right hand of God, is irrelevant; forgiveness, compassion, acceptance of the societally outcasted and marginal, etc. are the real "Christianity" in my book.
Quote from: Kvall on February 23, 2010, 05:50:39 AM
Agree, and it annoys me when other Christians perpetuate this idea. On the other hand, there is some stigma associated with being deeply religious rather than being a "Sunday-only" Christian. But it is nowhere near the distrust and hatred, say, atheists and Muslims encounter.
That's why I like my church and in particular my very progressive pastor. He backs away from the legalistic style that you mention and towards an actual following of Jesus's teachings. "Love thy neighbor" is 99% of what my church is about. There are a lot of churches like mine, but unfortunately most are as you describe!
I'm quite aware - and happily so - of progressive churches; it was an Anglican arch-deacon who took care of me when I was seriously prepared to kill myself several years back. Judaism has similar institutions. I'm also aware of people who practice Christianity as a private and solitary spirituality, away from the falseness of megachurches and the authoritarianism of centralized religious authority.
If Jesus were alive today, I'd happily smoke blunts and talk philosophy for hours on end with him, maybe march for sex workers' rights and do some meditation. Perhaps he'd persuade me to go on a Peace Corps mission with him, healing the sick in Uganda or building houses in Chile. He'd probably have some killer taste in music! I just don't want anything to do with the people who care more about supernatural ideas about his birth and death than about his message.
I also don't want anything to do with people who rage and fume about my atheism, perceiving it as a personal slight to themselves. Then again, at least I'm not a Muslim; it drives me to twitching and screaming seeing some of the flaming bigotry directed at Muslims by major conservative "Christian" figures, both here in the U.S. and abroad. Turn the other cheek my arse!
Panorama
Your view point is very refreshing. I have discussed the teachings of Jesus with other Jewish people, but sadly, so many seem to react to any questioning of their position, on any matter, as a personal attack.
Like Cami, I too rediscovered my relationship with God, though a number of years ago in my case. My own alienation came when I atempted to take the entire text in the KG Bible almost literally. the contradictions and counter intuitions drove me almost insane.
Then I read the Gospels in isolation. I was doing a nursing job where I found myself stuck in a room specialing a comatose patient and was so bored. All there was to read was a copy of Gideon's Bible.
As you say, it's the teachings that matter. They stand out because they make such sense. I really can't see how anyone, even an aeithist, can find anything there to disagree with.
Though, for some, not being allowed to kill is a bit of a bind.
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 23, 2010, 01:29:53 AM
As far as the best secular Biblical scholars can tell, Jesus was a radical Jewish religious reformer with a message of extreme kindness and forgiveness, communal living, peace, compassion and understanding. He embraced those whom others shunned - prostitutes, Samaritans, tax collectors. He was not a miracle worker, and never claimed to be a mashiach, the son of God, or divine in any way. He never intended to found a religion, and would very likely have abhorred the Pharisaic legalism Christianity tends to embody. There is some debate over whether he preached an apocalypse; it is fairly certain, however, that Christianity was an invention of his successors - particularly St. Paul - not of Yeshua of Nazareth himself.
Jesus was obviously a great man. That being the case, I wish the people who take it upon themselves to follow him would actually follow his teachings. How he died, and whether he was resurrected and now sits at the right hand of God, is irrelevant; forgiveness, compassion, acceptance of the society's outcaste and marginal, etc. are the real "Christianity" in my book.
As far as reaching out to the outcast and marginalized, I totally agree with you. In what Jesus' opinion of the legalism of the church today would be I have to agree as well.
However, please ask yourself one important question: Why would anyone become a secular Bible scholar? It is a total oxymoron of an occupation. There is only one answer: They have an agenda. No surprise there, we all do. But why would you expect these people to say anything else? Their very title predicted it. Just do not present these sources as some kind of mitigating wisdom. They are anything but.
Jesus himself was indeed a worker of miracles. He himself taught that he was
וְיֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ He himself taught that the Χριστός would have to suffer and die and be resurrected. And yes, he said quite a lot about eschatology, as does the Old Testament. Neither were invented by Paul. Though it is conceded that Paul drastically shaped the church. Historically, it was at Antioch that his followers were first called Christians.
Kristi
Nice answer Kristi.
I'm struggling today and in need of prayer.
Sarah L.
Actually, in some countries (e.g. China, Iran), Christianity
is persecuted. It's illegal in these places, on pain of death and sometimes preceding torture. Here in the UK, we get a lot of refugees who'd become Christian while over here, and would die if they got sent home. Sadly the Home Office don't seem to care about such details >:(
But as to this:
QuoteJesus was obviously a great man. That being the case, I wish the people who take it upon themselves to follow him would actually follow his teachings. How he died, and whether he was resurrected and now sits at the right hand of God, is irrelevant; forgiveness, compassion, acceptance of the societally outcasted and marginal, etc. are the real "Christianity" in my book.
I agree whole-heartedly, and it saddens me that a lot of Christians that I've come across in the past don't see it that way. I'm just grateful my church is among those who
do follow his teachings. Hopefully that'll make coming out easier...?
Quote from: Kristi on February 23, 2010, 07:41:26 AM
As far as reaching out to the outcast and marginalized, I totally agree with you. In what Jesus' opinion of the legalism of the church today would be I have to agree as well.
However, please ask yourself one important question: Why would anyone become a secular Bible scholar? It is a total oxymoron of an occupation. There is only one answer: They have an agenda. No surprise there, we all do. But why would you expect these people to say anything else? Their very title predicted it. Just do not present these sources as some kind of mitigating wisdom. They are anything but.
Jesus himself was indeed a worker of miracles. He himself taught that he was
וְיֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ He himself taught that the Χριστός would have to suffer and die and be resurrected. And yes, he said quite a lot about eschatology, as does the Old Testament. Neither were invented by Paul. Though it is conceded that Paul drastically shaped the church. Historically, it was at Antioch that his followers were first called Christians.
Kristi
A "secular" bible scholar is someone who uses
secular methods to perform historical analysis of the Bible - they can be (and are) Christians, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, or just about anything else. They're just interested in analyzing the Bible as a source document to try and figure out what can be reliably considered truthful and what can't, and they use the same methods they might use with any other ancient, culturally enshrined document. Their interest is not to tear Christianity down, but to create as historically valid a picture of the Biblical events as they can, and to try to understand how the Bible was created as best they can.
They are not on a rampage trying to destroy Jesus' image - there are books doing that, including all the literature proclaiming that Jesus never existed, but their evidence is very thin and they are rejected by the academic establishment.
I understand that you hold your faith dearly, but it saddens me to see people reject the best historical scholarship available because it conflicts with what they want to believe. I personally think that the scholarship vindicates Jesus - that he wasn't some sort of self-important magician who thought he was a Big Deal makes me like him more. I could never trust someone who tried to form a religion around themselves.
Incidentally, if you're interested in learning what scholars using secular historical methods have to say about Yeshua of Nazareth, there is a free course of audio lectures by Prof. Thomas Sheehan of Stanford University available on iTunes U. Just search "The Historical Jesus" in the iTunes Store. I found it quite educational.
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 23, 2010, 02:53:53 PM
A "secular" bible scholar is someone who uses secular methods to perform historical analysis of the Bible - they can be (and are) Christians, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, or just about anything else. They're just interested in analyzing the Bible as a source document to try and figure out what can be reliably considered truthful and what can't......
It is obvious that you believe this. But even in the way you phrase this, you show that you are acquainted only with a fringe, not with mainstream scholarship. In fact, you exclude most reputable scholars. Please believe whatever you wish, but in no way should you represent this as Christianity, nor the best historical scholarship. It is very far from it.
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 23, 2010, 02:53:53 PMI understand that you hold your faith dearly, but it saddens me to see people reject the best historical scholarship available because it conflicts with what they want to believe. I personally think that the scholarship vindicates Jesus - that he wasn't some sort of self-important magician who thought he was a Big Deal makes me like him more. I could never trust someone who tried to form a religion around themselves.
With all due respect, you know nothing about me. But that aside, do you see what you have done? You have set up parameters into which an acceptable interpretation would fall. This is very dangerous and intellectually, you can do better. I can tell you are intelligent and would love to see you do the opposite: take the text as it is, determine its meaning linguistically, research it historically, do literary analysis, and only then begin the discernment process of what it may or may not mean for your life. This is called
exegesis. It means drawing the meaning
out of the text. It is the only fair method. What you have done is called
eisegesis, reading meaning
into the text. It is always the temptation. But you do yourself disservice when you go that route.
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 23, 2010, 02:53:53 PM
Incidentally, if you're interested in learning what scholars using secular historical methods have to say about Yeshua of Nazareth, there is a free course of audio lectures by Prof. Thomas Sheehan of Stanford University available on iTunes U. Just search "The Historical Jesus" in the iTunes Store. I found it quite educational.
If Sheehan is your source I can understand where you are coming from. No doubt, he is a brilliant and likable person. However, he and the rest of his Jesus Seminar friends are actually discredited in most scholarly circles. That movement has provided almost endless entertainment for many of us, but is not generally taken seriously.
If you believe what Sheehan does, I am not trying to attack your faith. Just know that it is far from what scriptures themselves teach Jesus was about. Or to be more precise, it is a subset, because he has eliminated much scripture by calling it irrelevant or not original.
FWIW, I read both Hebrew and Greek and am not at all threatened by what Sheehan is trying to do. I also do not require agreement with my views in order to be a friend.
Peace,
Kristi
With all due respect, Kristi, calling people who use appropriate, non-mystical, logical historical methods to dissect the Bible "fringe" is rather ridiculous, and telling me that I have "faith" in secular scholarship in the same way that you have faith in your religion is insulting at very best. The very moment this scholarship is discredited by reliable methods that do not involve circular recourse to faith in heavily modified and bastardized documents, I will abandon it in favor of the better scholarship.
If by "mainstream," you mean believing Christian scholars who use recourse to faith to justify their positions, then I'm happy to be "fringe." I'm more interested in upholding historical rigor than upholding the sacred cows of the majority religion in my geographic region.
I'm glad that you actually know your sources and can read Greek and Hebrew. For what it's worth, I read and speak Yiddish, giving me access to a wide range of documents on the supposed divinely-inspired abilities of various rabbis and learned Jewish men through the ages. That doesn't mean I believe any of it.
As for setting up parameters, I will only ever accept rigorous secular methods of historical analysis. The idea that we can only find the historical meaning of the Bible by setting it outside of its historical context is a ridiculous and dishonest one, and has no place in real historical scholarship. And as for believing that he performed miracles, pardon me for not setting aside the entire corpus of scientific knowledge so that I can believe in the supernatural abilities of the prophet of someone else's religion. I don't mean to sound rude, but it's a pretty outsized demand to make.
How can you accuse me of having an agenda and reading my agenda into the Bible when you are so obviously doing exactly that? What you are engaged in is apologetics. There is nothing wrong with being an apologist, but please don't claim that your apologetics can replace standard historical analysis methods. Perhaps I do have an "agenda," but if I do, it's an agenda of historical accuracy and rigor, and a refusal to accept extremely unlikely and supernatural claims without a hyperabundance of evidence - an abundance which does not exist for the supernatural claims of any religious scriptures of which I am aware. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and that does not cease to be the case when examining religious texts.
I bear no special animosity against Christianity. I am a huge fan of various schools of traditional Christian art and architecture; when I hit rock bottom and was ready to kill myself several years ago, I went to an Anglican cathedral for help; my life was saved by an arch-deacon and his colleagues. I am forever in their debt. That doesn't mean I agree with their Biblical interpretation. :)
I can see this arguement will go nowhere, its a matter of perspective.
I happen to agree with Kristi on this one though.
A persons view of "scholarship" is colored by their perspective and their beliefs.
Let's be careful how far we take this arguement (or discussion if you prefer).
Here is the original purpose of this thread: I would love to see some positive posts from people who believe. And please, don't bother to repond to this if all you want to do is knock Christianity or promote some other belief system.
Sarah L.
What I said was not meant to be insulting, and was not said that way. And I agree, this discussion is going nowhere. This is supposed to be a section on Christianity and its support rather than attacking it.
I stand by what I said regarding the Jesus Seminar people. Their methods were beyond inappropriate. It is already highly discredited because of their circular reasoning. The way their "work" was framed was ludicrous. And yes, I will match my academic credentials against all but a few of those people. There is a HUGE difference between apologetics and exegesis. One seeks to explain the meaning of the text. The other seeks to explain the meaning of the faith. Apparently, according to what you have written, anyone who believes in the historic Christian faith has never done exegesis. Just unbelievable. FWIW, what I was trying to explain to you is commonly called the historical-critical method of interpretation. It is often rejected by fundamentalists, but it is what I use, as I see it being a fair methodology because it brings in scholarship from a wide variety of sources. Should you wish to discuss it further, I would be glad to do so, but in another forum.
Look, you have your beliefs. By your own words, they fall outside of Christianity. Fine. Hold them and be happy in them. It is not my job to convince you otherwise. Nor is it the purpose of this topic.
Kristi
Obviously you are right, in that this is going nowhere. I can't help but question, though, any methodology which ends with the analyst coming to the conclusion that Jesus defied the laws of physics. If that means I have an agenda, so be it.
I hope you have a nice conversation about your religion. Don't be surprised if other trans people have a problem with it, though - Christianity as an institution hasn't been especially kind to trans people (despite the pro-eunuch verses in the canonical Gospels).
What part of
"I would love to see some positive posts from people who believe. And please, don't bother to respond to this if all you want to do is knock Christianity or promote some other belief system."
don't you understand?
Kristi
One of the teachings of Jesus is quite useful here. That we must never judge each other.
If some wish to emphasise the miracle of the sacrament, if they go on about the resurrection and claim its meaning was taking away sin, then that is their concern.
I know the last supper was a symbolic metaphor, because Jesus used metaphors and similes all the time.
I know that original sin was defiance. That, by accepting His death, Jesus was demonstrating His absolute submission to God's will. I also believe, as a matter of my faith, that Jesus was capable of avoiding His death but chose not to to demonstrate that submission to the will of God is absolute.
But if other wish to take a different stance, it is between them and God. I have no right to judge on God's behalf. Even Jesus didn't do that.
This was Jesus' affirmation of the 3rd commandment. None of us can presume to be on a par with God.
Quote from: spacial on February 23, 2010, 06:52:06 PM
None of us can presume to be on a par with God.
Which is exactly how I view miracles. There was a time not long ago when the "big bang" would have seemed impossible to many because of the laws of physics. Now it is almost universally accepted. Does the fact that we can explain something make it any less miraculous? I think not. Often the more we understand something the more awe we feel about who God is. Look at how, in one generation, so many of the things on Star Trek have gone to seemingly miraculous to doable. What will the next generation bring? We are now talking about things such as, electroweak theory, quantum chromodynamics, and now, string theory. So, because we can now begin to understand some of the processes at work, does that make God irrelevant? Not to my way of thinking. it just gives a peek at how infinitely complex the creation is, and how amazing the Creator must be.
We now know that the sun essentially burns hydrogen into helium by the process of fusion. The fact that it currently sits 93 million miles away makes life on earth sustainable because of the precise amount of heat radiation we receive. I cannot chalk this up to accident or coincidence. Though we are not ignorant of how it happens any more, it seems all the more amazing, the more we understand.
Kristi
And here I'm thinking that it sure takes a lot of gall to use science to support your proof for the supernatural, when you can't use science to prove the supernatural.
Science has little or no relevance regarding Religion. Often, people who only believe in science use it as a way to try to disprove religion or dismiss the notion of spirituality with the supernatural. The true useful definition of 'supernatural' are for unearthly beings that are eerie and of the occult, and behavior and occurrences collectively that can not be explained and are totally unpredictable.
Where as all the main known religions have a predictable outcome for all believers and non-believers alike and known entity's who's teachings are the basic rules that are the core of modern society's foundation. Without these basic principal rules that have been set in place for century's modern culture would not progress and continue to flourish.
Science is a much needed tool for all its practical applications, but with it are many problematic and unpredictable outcomes that often cause more harm than good as evidenced around the world today.
Christianity is a belief that is not based on proof alone, but more so our 'faith' of the divine. Something more than the unpredictability of science and undependable nature of man.
I believe this is why there are so many that have faith in a religion and especially christianity which offers assurances of stability, dependability, and devotion of a caring constant companion who's message is love and help.
Before we get to caught up in another Science Vs Religion debate that goes nowhere, perhaps it is worth recalling the words of Galileo , " The Bible tells me how to go to Heaven, not how the heavens go."
Quote from: Kvall on February 23, 2010, 11:19:01 PM
That life exists in life-supporting conditions is not so surprising.
I disagree. I find it completely amazing and awe inspiring. I have never tried to use science to prove faith. I agree, that would not work. However, I also have never felt that there was a discrepancy between science and faith. For me, they are complimentary. The more we find out, the more complex the universe appears. But, I also think it is folly to change faith according to whatever scientific theory is in vogue at this particular juncture in our history. As I was trying to say earlier, science has changed immensely in the last century.
Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on February 23, 2010, 09:05:48 PM
Does the fact that we can explain something make it any less miraculous? I think not.
Kristi
That is such a good point.
"Father, forgive them for they __________________"
a) only think they know what they are doing.
b) want others to believe they know what they are doing.
c) can't believe the other person might know something.
d) won't believe that most of it doesn't matter
e) all of the above and a few more.
OK, so that was a bit irreverant when the real answer is none of the above if you really recognize the quotation. Christianity is and has been about difficult and contentious people whom God cares about seriously enough to have glorified them by taking on their flesh and all that that entails. I am a Baptized Christian, I am sometimes un-orthodox in many ways that drive some people (also Christian) to think!! In thinking, they have not immediately been changed into anything un-holy or anything that Jesus would not want to have dinner with but that can laugh when they find themselves taking something too seriously that really doesn't matter. At the table, Jesus would be the first and loudest in the laughter and would also see that no-one felt they had been laughed at!! On the subject of science and Christianity, the national clergy leader of the U.S. Episcopal Church IS a woman who is a highly regarded scientist. The following passage is from the Episcopal Church's Book Of Common Prayer. and preceeds the communion service --
"God of all power, Ruler of the Universe...
At your command all things came to be; the vast expanse of interstellar
space, galaxies, suns, the planets in their courses, and this fragile earth, our island home.
From the primal elements you brought forth the human race and blessed us
with memory reason and skill. You made us the rulers of creation but we turned
against you and betrayed YOUR trust, and we turned against one another....
in the fullness of time you sent your only Son ... to open for us the way of freedom and peace."
An image, yes, science yes, appeal to a part of us that only Spirit can fill, most definitely.
Christian teaching and life has room for "all of the above".
As a Christian Universalist in the United Church of Christ (UCC), I want to apologize for those who misuse God and Christ's names to advance hate, injustice, cruelty and oppression. Hate and exclusion have no place in the body of Christ or any religious body. I want to show the world that there are loving, accepting, open-minded, social justice loving Christians in the world and that the Christian tradition is not limited to evangelicals or fundamentalists.
I believe in one, holy and living God whose nature is love, and out of God's inclusive love will bring all souls, Christian or not to salvation. God is able and will reconcile all souls where all means all. There is no hell outside of ourselves. The only hells we create are the ones here on Earth that are born of people's insecurities, fears, hate, and ignorance. I believe that there is the spark of God in each person, and that each child of God is loved and accepted exactly as they are. I believe that Jesus was a prophet of God and a Rabbi who sought to restore his native Judaism back to the prophetic tradition in the spirit of Elijah, Amos, and the rest. He did not create the religion that would later be called Christianity.
Jesus bore witness to God as Abba (or in the Aramaic "Daddy"), the loving Father. Jesus told of God's extravagant love, and grace through Parables like the Prodigal Son, the Hundred sheep, the woman and the missing coin. Jesus invited those into his ministry those whom the Empire and the religious powers believed were sinners and outcasts including women, slaves, tax collectors and prostitutes. One of his central teachings that sums the law and the prophets is to "Love God with all being, and to love others as we love oneself".
I believe that the Bible, while inspired of God, is a human book written by humans, in the language of humans to describe humanity's evolving understandings of God and how they wrestled with the big life questions. It is not inerrant nor is it a manifesto of science. I take Bible seriously but not literally. I believe that God is calling each of us to be co-creators with God in transforming the human race into the human family- to bring about the Kingdom of God- where all God's children will be nourished, welcomed and fed, where all shall dwell in freedom and peace without fear or hate, and every person has a seat at the table, a world made just and whole. In addition to scripture, God also speaks through science, the arts, and other faith traditions. God is still speaking. While Christianity is my path to God, I acknowledge the other paths to God.
Sexuality and sex are gifts of God and should be celebrated rather than condemned. All forms of love whether it be straight, gay, lesbian, bi, or transgendered reflect the beauty and diversity of God's creation and people should treat their partners with love and respect. We in the United Church of Christ (UCC) are one of many denominations to welcome and celebrate the presence of God's gay and lesbian children in the life of the church. We are in the same tradition of openness and inclusion as the Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), the Alliance of Baptists (AofB), and the Metropolitan Community Churches (MCC)