Well, without drowning you in background, a few days ago my wife insisted on a blunt answer to the question - if you had to chose between transition and keeping your family which would you choose?
To which I simply said "I can never go back, i must move forward"
since then the discussion of what we are going to do next has gotten more intense...which is not the point of this thread.
The thing I wanted to comment on is that in the course of these conversations she has been very frank (more so than in the past) that she is not going to accept the concept that this is an inborn condition - a birth defect if you will. in her opinion it is a choice and thus I can choose to stop if I wanted to bad enough.
Upon reflection, it seems to me that this is THE fundamental dividing line for whether or not we can be accepted by anyone.
If it's a choice, we are morally responsible to our family at least, and accountable on some level to the people around us....if it is a condition then we are then worthy of compassion.
not that everyone is aware of that distinction but it seems to me that it lurks there, in the background, of every person's reaction.
Most think that this (GID) is the same as being Homosexual. That we choose it. But having come from a place that was a place that could have taken my life. It is not a choice. Neither is being Gay, we are born to it. Trust me. I pray that my ex and I were still together as man and wife. But given this, I can only hope that one day I will be a good wife to a good man.
And saying that I can only say that I hope to be that good wife. I will only pray that I will be pray of that family as wife and maybe mother.
Until then given the chance to sit it out or dance. I choice DANCE.
Janet
There is mounting scientific evidence that this is in fact a medical condition. But of course if you have the condition then you already know that, so scientific evidence is really only to confirm we aren't all a bunch of liars. In the Dark Ages people thought having a certain shaped birthmark meant you were in league with the devil. Times really haven't changed all that much.
My birthmark looks like Italy, who does that make
me in league with?
And it's choose to dance, not choice to dance.
the pope of course, duh :P
The "condition" is not a choice but everything we do in life IS. When we take on a responsibility, make a commitment, we have given our word and it is up to us whether we honour that commitment or abandon it.
Quote from: Northern Jane on December 21, 2009, 04:45:37 AM
The "condition" is not a choice but everything we do in life IS. When we take on a responsibility, make a commitment, we have given our word and it is up to us whether we honour that commitment or abandon it.
This ^ i fear your situation is getting more precarious as the weeks go by laura hugs for the dark road ahead
jessica
I ran out of time to continue my comment earlier....
We all make mistakes in life, do things we should not have done, and when we realize we are in that situation the only moral solution is to get back on the right path while minimizing the damage to others (as much as possible).
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on December 21, 2009, 09:10:50 AM
its my first christmas alone in 26 years, please forgive me if i am a bit touchy :'(
aey we can forgive it, yous aren't alone tho, momma mia! Yous got your cousin Laura there, cousin Jesse, your cousin Chloe, your cousins Jane and Rebecca, and we even let crazy aunt Janet outa teh basement for teh holiday season. You're never completely alone but yeah with a Family like this I'd get a lil grouchy too :icon_invision:
oi, fugetabout what's her name and come have some pasta, there's meat sauce
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on December 21, 2009, 09:10:50 AM
its my first christmas alone in 26 years, please forgive me if i am a bit touchy :'(
Me too.
Hi Laura, I sympathize with your situation for I am still ahead of one myself dreading the moment.
What we must realize is how our condition looks to others who have no intention nor resolve to understand what to mainstream of non professionals looks like a psychiatric condition. Harsh words, yet justified if taking their view without their sympathy or empathy. Take for instance Cancer, Someone gets it or not, there is no choice, but random( for most part) selection based on immune system inability to fight cancerous cells off. Once someone is diagnosed with it he can not choose one path or other but is thrown in the mids of it all to deal the best one can.
We on the other hand tool the choice, however grave and heavy, but we can choose to suppress our self into the gutter of survival burying all under 6 feet of dirt. To us is just like death to them is all back the same as it ever was. No, there is no compromise. No, they will not change. No, we are on our own. Yes, there is a future and it is awaiting us, how we play it out is not even entirely up to us, life is there to be lived, how we live it? I don't think life even cares as long as we live it. I am embracing you in this season of supposed love and sharing, I am sorry you must go through exactly this right now, but maybe it is for better and will show you new Brave way. Be who you are, looks to me you have already chosen this road, stay on it and love will present it self to you, it seems to work that way.
With Love, Alexia. :icon_bunch:
Well, I didn't really mean to be whining about her opinion specifically, just using it for an example...but I have to respond to the kind words.
Honestly I'm not really to the point of considering my own feelings about the idea i might be alone this time next year - or in some year to come - my heart bleeds right now not for my own potential loneliness but for hers.
I'd love to give her a "soft landing" as much as possible if we are going to separate.
(laying aside the real practical difficulties that would arise from separation here, just speaking of emotions)
I spent some time chatting on facebook with a local therapists last night (whom I'd be seeing clinically if i had the money) and we talked about her some and he agreed i was taking the right approach with her - there's some hope that when we get a little income she'll agree to see him for some counseling (she won't go to Memphis)
What I really started out to say here, though, was that the challenge, both for me and her and for folks in general, is to move people from one view to the other.
Honey, it took 3000 years for civilization to realize that the earth was not the center of the universe, took another 1000 years to realize all life is precious and evolved from the simplest life form( not Adam and Eve although some still live in the dark ages I presume, God bless them ;D) It takes eons to change perception yet we only have a life time, or in our case, half the life time to grow whom we long to become. Unfortunately my advise however, wrong or wright, is to be selfish. For once be your self, unbound, free, true at unfortunate cost. It is selfish for us to ask our love ones to follow us through hell, and it is just that to them, hellish place. We must abandon them for their sake and carry on our path. We can only decide when to let them go, and that is our decision to make. I would love to have a message of love or something conventional like that but I always speak my mind( hate me or love me) I believe it to be true. Love will conquer all some day, Alexia
QuoteIt is selfish for us to ask our love ones to follow us through hell, and it is just that to them, hellish place. We must abandon them for their sake and carry on our path.
That's not an invalid point of view but like all things, it's circumstantial.
without going into gorey details, I am able to say definitively that if she and I tried to separate and maintain two households we'd quite likely all end up homeless (or at least sponging off relatives who sacrifice to keep us off the street)
Right now the practicalities just are not there.
That kind of compels us to put extra effort into finding a truce.
hi hun
i have so much empathy for you i am faced with the same thing plus my daughter who will turn 6 in feb. the main difference between us is your love for her is very evident and the source of much of your pain im sure. in my case i dont love her but i dont want to hurt her or my child either. its a sad thing to come to the realization that you married to affect a male persona which was a complete lie then to bear a child into that lie is incredibly stupid and irrisponcible then to do it for times is unimaginable at least 3 of mine are grown. what a cowardly waste of a good womans love. so my main source of pain is trying to dimish the pain i caused. if at times i have seamed harsh in some responces its not meant that way i loath what i have done and sometimes project it w/o realizing it.
hugs
jessica
Laura, I think your original post here hit the nail on the head. Many people think we choose to be transgendered. I for one don't remember getting to choose, but that's beside the point.
Not that many years ago being homosexual was seen as a choice. Many still think that, but more and more people realize it is just who they are. It is not a "lifestyle" but an in-born trait. Same with being transgendered.
Where the choice comes in is what you do about it. If you can suppress it or deflect it, then you can choose not to express it. However, many of us get to the point where we have to express it.
In my own experience, once I began to taste what it was like to be free I couldn't go back. After a month as Kate, my sister asked me to resurrect the old me for a party of hers. I told her that I just couldn't do it. It was then she realized that this is very serious for me and not just something I'm doing for fun.
I've never been suicidal, fortunately, but I told my therapist that if I was forced back to having to live as a man I would just have to kill myself. I just cannot go back. (I have this theory that we expand once we get out of the cage, and that's why it's so hard to cram us back into it.)
I don't know how you can convince your wife that this is not a choice, Laura, other than to hold your ground while expressing concern for her in every way you can. It is often the innocent bystanders who are hurt the most.
*hugs*
Kate
Quote from: alexia elliot on December 22, 2009, 12:03:50 AM
Honey, it took 3000 years for civilization to realize that the earth was not the center of the universe, took another 1000 years to realize all life is precious and evolved from the simplest life form( not Adam and Eve
Well Alexia if you took your clothes off and walked around a beautiful garden with maybe a fig leaf to hide your'e pre-op I think you'd look exactly like Eve did when she wandered round the Garden of Eden.
Do people still seriously doubt Creation?
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2009, 06:48:58 AM
Well Alexia if you took your clothes off and walked around a beautiful garden with maybe a fig leaf to hide your'e pre-op I think you'd look exactly like Eve did when she wandered round the Garden of Eden.
Do people still seriously doubt Creation?
Uh, your kidding, right? ???
Other than the billions of people in the world who don't use the Hebrew Bible as the basis of their belief system, most Christians, Jews and Muslims see the creation story as allegory.
- Kate
The choice issue really is clouded by the fact that for some part of our lives, we lived as our birth gender. The people around us wonder how we managed it before. I know one transwoman who is in her mid sixties and still has managed to live as a man. She does it purely for her family and she suffers. I did about the same thing and I suffered. So there is a matter of choice in being trans. The issue is that we choose to transition to end the suffering and people see that as being selfish. Think that all we have to do is shut up, keep dressing and acting in our birth gender and everyone forgets about it. Most family and friends don't care as they don't see the psychological damage and dysfunction it causes to repress one's true gender. To them it is out of sight, out of mind. I wonder how many suicides are the result of this phenomenon. "I had no idea he was so unhappy."
Maggie
Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 23, 2009, 10:48:09 AM
The choice issue really is clouded by the fact that for some part of our lives, we lived as our birth gender. The people around us wonder how we managed it before. I know one transwoman who is in her mid sixties and still has managed to live as a man. She does it purely for her family and she suffers. I did about the same thing and I suffered. So there is a matter of choice in being trans. The issue is that we choose to transition to end the suffering and people see that as being selfish. Think that all we have to do is shut up, keep dressing and acting in our birth gender and everyone forgets about it. Most family and friends don't care as they don't see the psychological damage and dysfunction it causes to repress one's true gender. To them it is out of sight, out of mind. I wonder how many suicides are the result of this phenomenon. "I had no idea he was so unhappy."
I think Maggie hit it right on the head here. It's all about
external perception. People in the outside world see us pass perfectly acceptably as our birth sex. It makes very little sense to them why we would want to "throw that away" and undertake the effort to be perceived as the opposite sex. Some chalk it up to a sexual fetish, or mid-life crisis induced temporary insanity, or drugs, or (I actually heard this one) demonic possession.
I'm not sure this one will go away any time soon because it is virtually impossible to explain what it feels like to be gender dysphoric. Most who try to understand it seem to think of it like something you really want but can't really have... like being on a diet and wanting a hot fudge sundae. Surely a little self-discipline is all that is needed to resist. "How selfish of you to choose a self-indulgent path which inflicts such pain and chaos on those closest to you," they tend to think.
I think my own spouse has a little clearer understanding of it than most, as my final attempt to "choose" to repress it degraded into deeper and deeper depression, alcoholism, and progressive withdrawal from everyone around me. I've always made it clear to my spouse that THAT is what my choices truly are: To go back to that life, which probably would end by one means or another pretty quickly, or go forward with this one. Once she understood that those were my choices, she became a lot more supportive of my "going forward" decision.
And yes, I think there are a LOT of suicides resulting from this which get recorded as "motivation unknown."
My spouse eventually accepted that my transsexuality was real and stopped actively fighting me. However, she remains adamant that it is a mental disorder because of all the episodes that I had where I was so depressed that I didn't leave a darkened room for days or even bother to clean myself. It was all because of external factors that I got so morose and unable to work. However, to her this is a sign of illness not a reaction to social pressure.
She does now believe that I am a woman or rather a sort of woman. Not really the same as she. She still holds that since I was not raised as a woman from birth, I am somehow not as female as she. In fact, she bristles when I speak about womens rights or issues. She says I have no right to discuss these so I have agreed to not bring up such topics.
She turned off her loving feelings towards me in a heartbeat when she accepted I was really a woman. We went from a loving couple who shared everything and kissed, caressed and were comfortable with seeing each other naked to acting like we are work colleagues. It would be a huge affront to her if I held her hand. My point is once they get it, they really get it.
Maggie
I so appreciate everyone sharing their experience. I feel so much less alone and crazy. As a therapist it is easy to fall into expecting I should have it all together. As if. But I do know some things that might help others, at work and here. I think western European cultures tend to make some basic mistakes in understanding people. Contrary to popular belief, you cannot just become anything you want to. There are limits and directions that seem to be inborn in some way. Some are abilities - I will never be a theoretical Physicist, or a brilliant linguist. I do not have those abilities. Wiser, more "primitive" cultures more in touch with spiritual mysteries, had vision quests and other processes of self-discovery that we lack. We think logic and will can decide everything. They cannot. Not if we want health. Our emotions and spirits are more fundamental in some ways.
We also tend to believe there is something wrong with us if we are very upset or confused - and an adult should never need help with their own mind. I think there are situations in which crying and sadness are the only healthy response. Laura, I feel sadness for you and your wife. I also wonder if she wants to believe that you could make a different choice, so she would not have to feel sadness. I would guess you might also.
I think it is a Buddhist belief that pain is inevitable, but suffering is caused by fighting - not accepting and trying to erase or banish - normal painful feelings. And by trying to believe that the pain can be erased or avoided if only someone would fix it. That if we just wanted to badly enough, we could control these irrational feelings about who we really are.
It only took me 59 years to surrender.
Some nice posts,
I think the perception that we are throwing away a perfectly good sex to "try" another is still in the mainstream. One question you see is "well you had an orgasm as a man and as a woman' which was better?" It is such an ignorant question but it does focus what people think. The idea we can pick and choose sexuality is one of the main problems. People who are not transgenderd NEVER understand the difference between sex and gender. Well males never do and females either ^-^.
Oh and by the way no one still believes in creationism do they?
Cindy
Quote from: CindyJames on December 24, 2009, 01:54:22 AM
Oh and by the way no one still believes in creationism do they?
Cindy
Wildly off topic (and I forbid anyone else to come in here posting about this subject in my thread! ;) ), but yes, a lot do - I know some of them.
and there are many others who wouldn't argue you to the death that there was, for instance, a literal world-wide flood but who fall along some spectrum of respect for those stories that would make most non-Americans faint.
But to get back to a specific answer to your question, in surveys a significant minority of Americans (40%?) believe to some degree in the idea of a biblical creation and nearly that many more believe God did create but not according to a literal interpretation of Genesis.
Quote from: alexia elliot on December 22, 2009, 12:03:50 AM
Unfortunately my advise however, wrong or wright, is to be selfish. For once be your self, unbound, free, true at unfortunate cost. It is selfish for us to ask our love ones to follow us through hell, and it is just that to them, hellish place. We must abandon them for their sake and carry on our path. We can only decide when to let them go, and that is our decision to make.
Wow, what a take! It makes so much sense, it is hard to find where there is fault in the idea, but I cannot disagree more.
By making the choice to abandon others we deny them the choice of accompanying us. We essentially decide by doing so that those who love us do so conditionally and therefore we spare them the opportunity to continue to love us. I think that shows an incredible lack of respect for those who care for us. We must bring others along, share our burdens with them and give them the opportunity to come along or help shoulder some of the load. By doing so we become stronger, our relationships become stronger, and we act out of great respect and love for them. They, of course, might not choose to come along, but you have shown them how much you care about them by not cutting them out of the equation with something that is important to you.
I want to say more, but I'm still so flabbergasted at this attempt at justification for abandoning those close to us in selfish pursuit. There just might be no better way to fail than to follow this advice.
Quote from: Kendall on December 24, 2009, 01:37:21 AM
I think western European cultures tend to make some basic mistakes in understanding people. Contrary to popular belief, you cannot just become anything you want to. There are limits and directions that seem to be inborn in some way.
Kendall, I think you are right here and in the rest of your post. I only have one child, but I was amazed at how much personality and various traits she had "out-of-the-box" - evidently pre-installed. It is an American myth (i.e., story that forms the culture) that each of us can be anything.
And Interalia, I think you are right, too. I am a widow, but it was very important to me to tell all my close friends what I planned to do before doing anything. I wanted to give them the opportunity to accept me or reject me. I felt it was only courtesy and respect for them and our friendship. I've battled people on this site about that - people who want to make all the changes before springing them on anyone – but never understood my deep uneasiness with that method until reading your post. Thank you.
- Kate
Hi Interalia, absolutely, I agree, one sided view. That is why I say wright or wrong, however, the argument isn't about sharing your emotions with ones you love and asking them for help, reason, support but rather it is an after fact beyond the point of all that above, it is when they do not accept, when they do not see an ounce of future together that is when I make my point of walking away and proposing just as a speculation that at this moment they might be released from our intent and then be free to decide purely from their own perspective weather they still are willing to stay or cut us off. When initially posting to this subject I was already aware of the problem Laura was having of loved ones not willing to follow her footsteps, despite of her multiple tries to bring them along. I do not claim to have the wisdom nor my view being correct, and I am upfront by posting my own doubts, and I appreciate your point of view regarding exhausting all possible "Love" avenues before committing to the last resort. But there might be the time where you stand by the crossroads and must make a decision to release you and others from bounds of despair and hopelessness.
Post Merge: December 24, 2009, 01:08:25 PM
Laura honey, I wish you peace of mind and so that everyone close to you will finally understand and be willing to stay through the thick and thin, Merry Christmas Babe and Merry Christmas to everyone here. Love will save us all, some day :icon_biggrin:.
About "selfishness" - I believe there is a value in finding a balance. Which means you cannot ignore others' needs - but you cannot ignore your own needs either.
Sometimes balance is very hard and painful to achieve.
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on December 24, 2009, 11:00:40 AM
statistics indicate that approximately 30% of all trans people attempt suicide at least once in their life, and of those attempts, 50% succeed.
i am spending my first christmas alone in 25 years. we still love each other very much, but GID hurt both of us very deeply. i think we will eventually end up as you...perhaps best friends but never again intimate.
while this makes me incredibly sad, i could not go back to pretending to be him even to have that back. i have come too far, and done too much. i dont have a choice. i dont think that i ever really did.
one size does not fit all. most of us, i would assume, have done the best we can for as long as we can. you have no idea the years of hell i lived through -- she and i lived through -- when i attempted to "share my burdens" with her. she accused me of abandoning her, and being selfish, yeah i heard it all.
well guess what, she would have lost me anyway, either way. if i had not transitioned i would surely be dead. of this i have no doubt; may 26th's failed attempt was a dry run, i would not have failed a second time.
selfish pursuit?? i stuck it out for 45 years. i raised my kids. i took care of my family. i did everything expected of me until i could do it no longer. i KNEW that the result of my transitioning would be to "abandon" her; in her eyes, and perhaps yours as well. i ASKED her to come with me on this path. she said THAT was the most selfish thing i had ever said.
just as i do not know the pain and struggles you have gone through in your decisions, neither do you know mine.
i did the best i could.
i now return you to this thread, and i now return to my empty house.
Oh my.
I relate to the body of this post so much I could have written it myself.
thank you for that. I surely know how tough a place you are in - i can easily imagine being alone next Christmas - This sort of thing reminds me again how fortunate we are to have this place where we can at least know we are not alone in our situations.
I'll be thinking of you tonight and tomorrow.
What ho!
Might I benefit from the law of unintended consequences?
Let me explain.
Family Christmas dinner today - another one of those "dress like a man for the kids" deals.
So I "dialed back" a bit, though not as much as at thanksgiving. I tried to get to the point where I could be confident the kids wouldn't give any thought to things, the idea being if there was a protest it would be based on what the adults saw, whatever the invitation had said.
In the weeks leading up to the occasion my wife was asked maybe a dozen times "Are yall coming?" and it threw up a red flag for us and we've been speculating just what's going on there since they've never been that concerned about RSVP before.
We kind of came to the conclusion that it was one part morbid curiosity, one part seeing if I'd behave, one part snooping to try to see if there was tension between us and one part looking for an opening to create division.
For sure it wasn't innocent.
So anyway - we went, and most of them ignored me completely (which I fully expected) and after we left she told me that was why she hadn't wanted to go because she wouldn't like how they treated me (!) and she was right.
I told her - sincerely - not to sweat it because I had expected it and frankly wasn't worried about the opinion or behavior of any of those who were rude.
Anyway, we got back into the discussion of what there motivations might have been and she concluded that they were probably hoping to see us falling apart....by extension to see HER fall apart and, in her words, "coming running to them" for help.
And she said "I'd sooner sleep under the bridge as go to those people for help"
Anyway....not a lot of evidence yet, mainly just intuition....but I get the sense that the more that bunch is against me, the more she'll try very hard to make it work just to prove them wrong. She has always had a real defiant streak when it came to those folks trying to use or manipulate her.
Sorry Laura for my earlier distraction in your thread.
Sounds as if she is supporting you as well as can be expected.
I am amazed by the "morbid curiosity" people have about each other. Is because "we" are different and they want to see us as different or they cannot accept themselves. Sorry that is obscure. Many none TG people go to drag acts at clubs or also watch them on TV (no pun intended). The holler and laugh and never seem to be upset or insulted. Even though the entertainer may be very cutting in their humour. Are we supposed to be the drag act? Or are the crappy programs that feature ->-bleeped-<-s, I'm trying to think of the name - Jerry Springer (?) that appear to be widely watched leading this sort of motivation.
i.e. Lets invite Cindy to the party she'll be a laugh to look act. When and ever do they realise we don't do this for a joke or for entertainment.
I do remember in the 70-80's people inviting the token gay to dinner parties as some sort of trophy to demonstrate their acceptance and worldliness. I know your family is way off that and probably doing exactly what you thought. Trying to be mean and nasty.
Cindy