Why is it so central to a person's understanding of themselves?
Probably because we live in a society that focuses so much on differences, even when they try to be politically correct, you're still look at differences. And it's honestly not such a bad thing, but for our situation it becomes central because of the social structure we've built.
As I have been changing my gender presentation (transitioning), I've found that gender affects almost every aspect of my life. It is clothes and appearance, certainly, but it is also movement, social interaction, speech patterns, how I drive, what tasks I do at my volunteer job (my choice), how careful I am when walking in the dark, how I speak to people and how they speak (or ignore) me, how I enter a room, and on and on. Sure, I'm the same person, but gender seems to affect everything.
Or maybe that's just me?
- Kate
I studied this in college recently for some classes I was taking...the idea of gender is nothing more than constructed in my eyes from what I learned. Those things we do everyday that are considered male or female, or masculine/feminine, etc etc, it's nothing more than constructs. Yet society has taught us that these factors, plus our own skin color, class, etc, all contribute to our "identity". All constructed, so as to when that platform of identity we are standing on collapses, we are struggling just to recover from the blow. If you've ever been to another country, I'm sure you experienced some degree of culture shock. Why? Because it's a change of ideas, ideals, constructs, language, mannerisms, etc etc etc. Your lost pretty much and forced to adapt to a whole new set of circumstances. The book "A New Earth" by Eckhart Tolle was absolutely amazing for pointing how much we rely on identity for security of ourselves, and he tries to teach you how to be able to let go of that, and just be. I think that's why partially I don't really ID with gender, is not only do I find things with both, I find stuff with neither, plus I'd rather just live my life without the complexities of identification. I'm just me, whoever that is, because in retrospect we as people are always changing with new experiences, ideas, and other forms of growth. Not to say it's a bad thing of course that people ID one gender or the other, but it's just a little perspective, even if it's not a direct answer to Nero's question ;) :laugh:
I think Lachlann is right, it identifies us in society even more than race or nationality, it seems to be more fundamental than those other things, even the ones that are also with us from birth. First you are alive, second you are male or female, third your race, nationality, religion, whatever.
I've often played with the idea of considering if I were the only person alive, would my gender matter to me? I honestly don't think I can answer that question, because it is so ingrained in everything I do and think about. After years of living in the wrong one, I don't think gender will ever NOT be an integral part of my identity.
Gender is a way of relating to the world around us. It comes from the days when the human race was new upon the planet. These creatures called Men developed to hunt and protect. The other creatures called Women developed to deliver new humans for the family unit and care for the young. Crude yes but it worked.
Now those two models have populated the earth to overflowing. But the differences still exist. Attention for procreation. But there also were modification in the attraction model. Some are attracted to their same sex. Why? Who knows? But who really cares. The same thing that is in the hetero attraction is in the same sex attraction. Love. That emotional stimulation.
So then why is gender so central to identity? Each being is modeled in one of the two forms and in one of the two attraction models. It is for the emotional stimulation called love. If this is so then why is the the transgendered individual?
A Transgendered person simply see themselves as not their birth gender, but the other. Or even a combination of both or neither. There is something about themselves that just matches to this view. And they do not, no, can not be the birth gender. They see themselves as they are and only wish the world to see them the same way. They can not identify with their birth gender. But what of the emotional attraction? Every being craves this, but regardless of the way they present themselves, they seek that thing called love.
I know I am rambling on about nothing, but I got going and could not stop.
And after all this is just my opinion.
Janet
Not to show my age but, I have 2 grandchildren, a boy 5 and a girl 2-1/2. We had 2 boys
Ny, the girl was my first real exposure to a little girl and I am amazed how different the genders are at this age at the basic level. Even as children your identity is dependent on your gender. They grow and learn at different rates, it seems that they express their emotions differently. It's so cool to be involved with them and try to understand the influences and of course regress to examine why I am me and why I choose an identity not based on my birth gender.
QuoteWhen we speak of gender, in a context other than language, it is a recent concept in our culture, both lay and professional. It was not until 1955 that John Money, Ph.D. first used the term "gender" to discuss sexual roles, adding in 1966 the term "gender identity" while conducting his gender research at Johns Hopkins. In 1974, Dr. N.W. Fisk provided our now familiar diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria. Previously, one's sexual role was considered one of two discrete, non-overlapping congenital attributes—male or female determined by one's external genitals. These two mutually exclusive categories allowed for no variation. Of course, we acknowledged the cultural differences in sexual roles, but there still could be only two modes of expression - of being.
full article: http://www.transgendercare.com/guidance/what_is_gender.htm (http://www.transgendercare.com/guidance/what_is_gender.htm)
When I first encountered this article I had to breath deep and realized that I had found something worth investigating. With this article and other research I've been doing I feel that "gender" is mostly a label we are stamped with at birth by society, but it is not something conceived of until we start to become "aware". As for my identity, I feel stating my gender creates a base for me to grow from, a validity as you will, that gives me a place to identify with who and what I feel I am.
Over the past six months or so I have been doing a lot of research into the concepts of gender and gender development (for a presentation to doctors who treat Intersex infants) and there is a growing body of work in the past 5 years that indicates gender is indeed biologically rooted, is often expressed from as early as a few days after birth, and that masculine and feminine gender continue to diverge throughout childhood with the greatest divergence happening during puberty. The studies include differences in responses among infants, different ways in which male and female brains process information (as shown by MRI), different developmental paths through childhood, different learning styles, etc. Much of this information is not widely publicised outside of medical circles because it is "politically incorrect" and 'your average Joe' is inclined to see "difference" as "better/worse".
The differences in 'natural gender' explain the prevalence of segregated play among young children (finding comfort in sameness) and the formation of a child's awareness of themselves as "boy" or "girl" based on their peers and who they can relate to most easily.
With "gender inclination" being biologically rooted and having a strong effect on whom a child can most easily relate to and communicate with most effectively, it is easy to see why gender is such a key element in the development of the individual.
Well, no matter what gender I consider myself I'm still the same person. So I think the better question is "Why is it such a big deal to other people?"
Documents always go "Name" then "Sex" then other information. No matter what it is, your sex is always asked of you. If I'm going to get my eyes examined for instance, I don't see why it would make a difference what's in my pants (or on my chest.)
Just recently, I was with my father and we ran into this guy who was a neighbor or one of my father's old friends. The guy looked examined me after having met me before and said "Is that your boy?" Now my father corrected him and later, said "I hate when people do that." It surprised me. It seems to bother other people a lot more than it bothers me.
And what of the stories of various transsexuals or other gender-variants (use the transgender umbrella-term, I guess) come out to their families and are abandoned? Children seem traumatized and heartbroken, refuse to talk to their "fathers" or "mothers" again. They reject them. Others talk about how it's unfair to children. But really, what makes it such a big deal? They're still the same person, simply looking different. People don't get so upset when a parent gets liposuction or other plastic surgery. And younger children don't react so strongly.
In conclusion, social conditioning blows the importance of sex/gender way out of proportion, more than even seems to be healthy. In our society, this is outdated and is more detrimental than beneficial.
Whether it is a social construct or not, to me gender is not appearance but where I fit into the social structure. Appearance aids in finding that fit, but it is how I relate to others and how they relate to me that is important to me. I am far more comfortable as a woman. When I was trying to be a man, I could fit in sometimes but not others and always felt out of place. Now I have found my place in the universe and am comfortable and happy.
I think that gender is an essental trait of each of us. But even if it is just something layered on by society, we still have to live in society. How we fit in is determined by many things. I believe that gender is one of those things - a very important one.
- Kate
i dont know what gender is, i guess instinctively i never took the time to seperate a man or girl from a woman or boy, i knew it was a sham to begin with, to divide us.. can't you see the truth that is right in front of you?? WE ARE ALL ONE WITH ALL!
It's only as central as people want it to be.
As much as I identify as a woman, I wish we lived in a society where gender was irrelevant.
I agree that men and women are far more similar than different. I think that there shouldn't be gender differences in opportunity. I believe that women should earn wages on par with men and that careers should not be gender-based. I don't think women should be controlled by men nor seen as prey. I think that at some basic level we are all human, regardless of our gender, ethnicity, religion, skin color, etc.
However, I am far happier presenting myself to the world as a woman and having people treat me as a woman. Why is that if gender is irrelevant?
One example is public restrooms. The behavioral expectations in a men's room are different than in a women's room. That to me means that there are gender differences. They may be only cultural, but I am very happy to be able to be friendly and exchange a little chatter with a stranger – to establish some small connection with another – rather than keeping my head down and avoiding any kind of verbal or non-verbal communication.
I have finally been admitted to Woman World. Please don't tell me it is no different than Man World. I don't believe it and don't want to believe it. ::)
- Kate
Oh there are lot of different world's, and it's not as easy to divide them between 'women' and 'men'. Would you feel the same in the woman's room of a biker bar K8? Or in the limo-world woman's room where they are all complaining about Consuela and how hard it is to find good servants these days? Or the uber-hipster hangout where women going to restroom to powder their nose ain't kidding about it and every stall has three or four pairs of legs under it? How comfortable would K8 be if a bunch of 20somethings pulled out a bunch of Colombian Marching Powder and offered it to you? Would you be 'at one' with them enough to spend the night tripping the light fantastic with the girls, or is that outside of your comfort zone?
Now, I assume that some of them you would, I doubt that you'd have problems in the biker bar, you just talk bike, but move far afield from your socio/economic group, or far from your age group, you might feel just as alienated as you ever did before, no matter what the sex of the restroom was posted as.
Gender is the one social division that is universal in human societies, and is for most people deeply connected to their most important (i.e., intimate) relationships. It's also among the hardest characteristics to alter, which is why changing genders it's such a common theme in literature. The differences in physical strength are also important. There are many things men and women are roughly equal at doing, including just about everything in a modern middle-class society, but take any man and any woman between 18 and 60 and reasonably healthy, and I would bet that at least 9 times out of ten the man could beat up the woman. That forms a serious power differential, especially when there are so many men (even if it's just a small percentage) who desire to harm women.
These are all things that more or less cut across cultures. Of course age is another, and that's also a big identifier -- but it's also something everyone expects will change, and one that society at least gives some preparation for changing. Class? That is much more easily and more often changed than gender, but still hugely important, which is why rags to riches stories (or riches to rags, or rags to riches to rags) are also major themes of literature.
I think culture shock, as suggested by findingreason, is one of the most apt desccriptions of the transition experience, both before and after transition.
Tekla, I am comfortable in a wide range of situations, but you are right – there are subcultures where I have been uncomfortable. But my discomfort was because those worlds aren't my world, regardless of my gender. In the world I usually inhabit, I am more comfortable as a woman than when I was trying to be a man.
I'm not sure what your point is, dear. ???
Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 29, 2009, 12:26:10 PM
Gender is ... among the hardest characteristics to alter...
And I think that is why, once I found how to relax into it, I am now so happy. My gender has always been that of a woman, even when my body and presentation and place in the world was that of a man. And
that is why I believe gender is a basic human trait.
Your experience of gender may be different. :-\
- Kate
short answer: because we relate to others through it, just as they relate to us.
Longer answer: The rules for gendered behavior are more important than race, religion, country of origin, language, etc.
An earlier post addressed the idea of gender as a construct, which is at least partly true. If gender were only a construct, I don't think trans people would have quite so difficult a time feeling that we were actually members of the opposite sex (yes, I know, it's bad, but I'm using sex and gender interchangeably here). It's integral to our understanding of ourselves, our place in society, and it governs how we relate to other people.
Really short: what K8 said.
I think that gender takes on a far more critical role for many of us than for other people, they don't see it as part of their identity, but as part of their being. What they identify with is their social/economic class, and its not being with a different gender, or even the taking on of differing gender roles that bothers them, its being outside of that class that confuses/scares them.
Quote from: tekla on December 30, 2009, 02:56:14 AM
I think that gender takes on a far more critical role for many of us than for other people, they don't see it as part of their identity, but as part of their being. What they identify with is their social/economic class, and its not being with a different gender, or even the taking on of differing gender roles that bothers them, its being outside of that class that confuses/scares them.
I agree. Cis-gendered people take their gender for granted and don't think about it. Most of the time it isn't important to them and they can't really imagine being other than they are. (Gender is important to those who struggle for gender equality, but they are aware only insofar as they want their rights as humans.)
If you are born with pale skin in a land where most people have pale skin and pale-skinned people have more opportunity than dark-skinned people, you may not think about your skin color unless dark-skinned people start demanding their rights as humans.
If you are very rich you may just assume that is your rightful place in the world and you deserve it and those who aren't very rich deserve their fates and that's why they live on the poor areas.
If you are male and are happy being male, you don't think about being male. When another male "decides" to switch teams and become female you assume he/she is crazy because why else would anyone not want to be male?
Gender is important to us because of the disconnect between our inner and outer selves. Generally, gender is not important to non-TG people because their inner and outer selves are aligned.
- Kate
That is a very good point K8, oftentimes I wonder, is it really gender that this is about, or does it come from an even deeper place, for which we have no words, to express this, it seems like a chance game of using the right symbols at the right times, plus things like luck... It seems like nothing will ever change, but if you keep doing that it might, what stops you from just doing it?
We come to really know that we have no idea where we stand or what our divisions mean, or if they are in fact real. Sometimes it just seems to appear, but its like you can't have one without the other, unless you dont think about it that way
Quote from: K8 on December 30, 2009, 07:49:11 AM
I agree. Cis-gendered people take their gender for granted and don't think about it. Most of the time it isn't important to them and they can't really imagine being other than they are. (Gender is important to those who struggle for gender equality, but they are aware only insofar as they want their rights as humans.)
If you are born with pale skin in a land where most people have pale skin and pale-skinned people have more opportunity than dark-skinned people, you may not think about your skin color unless dark-skinned people start demanding their rights as humans.
If you are very rich you may just assume that is your rightful place in the world and you deserve it and those who aren't very rich deserve their fates and that's why they live on the poor areas.
If you are male and are happy being male, you don't think about being male. When another male "decides" to switch teams and become female you assume he/she is crazy because why else would anyone not want to be male?
Gender is important to us because of the disconnect between our inner and outer selves. Generally, gender is not important to non-TG people because their inner and outer selves are aligned.
- Kate
I couldn't have put it better myself Kate.
It is so unbelievable refreshing to know their are others out there that understand why gender is so inextricably connected to identity. I suppose it's a bit like saying a person missing a hand understands better than somebody who has both hands, just how important having both hands is. Because I live as a male, my female self is hidden and effectively missing. My real identity has been forced to hide and I now realize why I never feel complete, no matter how much I try and convince myself I'm male. As I've said in earlier posts, gender is the very core of my being. As a TS I know vastly better than a non TS what gender identity is all about. I think about it every day!
Love Alexie.
Quote from: tekla on December 30, 2009, 02:56:14 AM
I think that gender takes on a far more critical role for many of us than for other people, they don't see it as part of their identity, but as part of their being. What they identify with is their social/economic class, and its not being with a different gender, or even the taking on of differing gender roles that bothers them, its being outside of that class that confuses/scares them.
I only half agree. I don't think most people consider gender to be critical in defining their identity in the same way that they don't consider being able to see or hear or walk as being critical -- visual artists, musicians, and hikers, respectively, notwithstanding. But take it away and it becomes critical. So to that extent I agree.
But gender definitely plays a pretty big role for a lot of cisgendered people I know (by no means all, but still a lot of them), and it certainly plays a major role in how people live their lives, albeit smaller than it once did. People aren't uncomfortable with switching gender roles mostly because they never actually have to do it. And being in circumstances dominated by the other gender tends to be problematic too: Most men I know would feel rather uncomfortable getting a mani-pedi with the girls; most women would (and do) feel uncomfortable working in a department (office, lab, shop, whatever) with no other women, to give some stereotypical examples. Certainly some don't care, but a lot of people really do.
I think there is a huge difference between something that is a part of your identity, and those things that are - more simply - a part of your being.
Quote from: tekla on December 30, 2009, 11:47:39 PM
I think there is a huge difference between something that is a part of your identity, and those things that are - more simply - a part of your being.
Aren't those really the same but different in degree? Perhaps it is just a semantic difference? "Identity" implies it is surface or added on, while "part of your being" is more essential and integrated into what makes you you.
I am a healthy, physically able, pale-skinned person of European heritage. I usually don't think about those things (except my health when I'm sick), but they are essential to who I am. I agree that they aren't my identity as we usually use the term, but in a way they are because they help define who I am at some sub-conscious level.
Even though I have the remnants of a male body, I identify as female. It seems to be an essential part of who I am. Perhaps as my body becomes more female, my femaleness will be more integrated into who I am and no longer be my identity?
Aargh! My head is starting to hurt. Don't follow me into this semantic rabbit hole! Beware! :icon_blah:
- Kate
my head hurt yesterday. I think identity is very different from being. Identity does imply that it is on the surface and added on, while being persists in every situation, it is just the base feeling, or spark. I believe the moment you are conceived, and even before, you do have being, because nothing that essential could be created or destroyed. But you do not have identity.
I think its like the big bang, when everything was all packed into that tiny little ball, it had being, but none of it had any form, it just was and that was it, there wasn't even space to seperate pieces from eachother.
And now all that energy can be distinguished, and we are aware of elements and stuff like that, we can identify them.
You can be without having identity, but you cannot have identity without being.
Identity is not essential to who you are. I feel like this because I don't really know who I am, but I still get along well enough. Unless my identity is person who does not know who I am. Sometimes I feel like just awareness, sometimes I feel like a dragon, sometimes I feel like a deer. Recently I realized I must come a little bit of all things things, maybe its that I am really everything or nothing.
In all of this, I still can't really say that I am this and this, I would never argue against a statement I am not anything or do not really know who I am, but for no reason I prefer to be identify as this or that. Its what everyone else does, and it does come from our being. Does it really have anything to do with us though? The elements, I would imagine do not know themselves as copper, iron, sulfur, mercury, its just people who call them that. I don't know myself as anything but its just the outside world that calls me something, which shows you how close the inside and outside world is, I could even be 'alone' and still thinking I am someone.
But in that case who would know? If I really am no one, thinking I am someone, I am no one and I cannot really think, so there must be someone else 'there' in some meaning of the word who can actually think that there is someone and even two people, even though there is only one, possible none.
Quote from: tekla on December 30, 2009, 11:47:39 PM
I think there is a huge difference between something that is a part of your identity, and those things that are - more simply - a part of your being.
... which is precisely the distinction I was making.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 31, 2009, 01:24:24 PM
... which is precisely the distinction I was making.
I don't think there is that much of a difference, because it's all being so I agree.
Quote from: K8 on December 30, 2009, 07:49:11 AM
I agree. Cis-gendered people take their gender for granted and don't think about it. Most of the time it isn't important to them...
That's not been my experience in the slightest!
I mean, how many ways can one see themselves as a "man" or as a "woman". Even between the big "gender divide" there are an infinite variety of ways to define oneself as either / or.
If anything, have a gender-specific identity hyper-intensifies one's "gender identity" as you begin to compare yourself to "ideals" based on that particular gender.
I can't tell you how many times I've had guys and girls say "I wish that we weren't expected to do such and such or be a particular way."
I think this is one of the strange blessings of being trans. You are forced to have to see gender from an angle most people don't realize is available regardless of what body you were born with.
So, I think what you said was right to a certain degree, but has to do more so with the fact that they don't realize there are other options, even within their own gender identity. :D
Gender roles have always been a part of human civilization, whether or not we want to admit to it. In the past, these roles were flexible and based primarily upon convenience; males were generally stronger, and were better suited to hunting - females, being that they gave birth, were generally better suited to doing delicate work and caring for the children. There were always variations, of course. It's likely that gender-variant people existed as far back as that. Gender is, in most people, an innate thing. It is not physical, it is simply a state of "being", but it has always been tied to physical sex.
As children, we gather information about the world, and can later form identities based on it. As someone has said, when we are conceived - or, for my own purposes, when we are born - we have being but we do not have identity. Sex is "being"; gender is "identity". We cannot have identity without being.
Although we would be the same people regardless of our sex, that sense of self is generally rooted in one sex or another - and its resulting gender role - because after observing our world as children, we discover where we belong in it and form our identities.
Our world has always been a gendered one, it is simply much more fixed than it has been in the past. Along with this sense of self being innately gendered (with androgynes being the exception, of course), it is gendered for a reason: there is something about the brains and development of transgender people that separates us from our assigned sex. Essentially, we feel a need to express the roles of - or the strong sense that we are, in the case of the transsexual - the opposite sex. The gender roles just follow. I suppose that requires that we go back to traditional thinking in only one way. To assume that sex is tied to gender on the very foundation, and that there is something very biological that makes us want to express a gender role other than the one that coincides with our assigned sex.
Essentially, if gender is so inherent, that would explain its massive importance in our lives.
But I am deathly tired and probably not making an ounce of sense. :laugh:
Gender is a socially constructed class and cultural system; it matters for the same reason that one's membership in other socially constructed categories, like race/ethnicity, matters. If I lived in a vacuum, without any human contact, I doubt that it would ever occur to me that I have a "gender."
Another way of saying this is that gender is something that occurs between people; it is only through a lifelong process of participatory social construction and conditioning, starting at birth, that certain traits are gendered and assigned a place and value in society. Some genderings - and some gendered characteristics - are ingrained much more deeply than others, and it is these most deeply ingrained gendered characteristics that are most obvious us in our everyday functioning. Thus, gender - and gendered characteristics such as sexual orientation - are perceived as both very important and very permanent.
I think it's important to stress how culturally specific gender - and gender-related constructs such as sexual orientation - can be. It's not as though we moderns work with universal concepts of gender and sexuality which translate to every other culture throughout history. Gender and sexuality constructs from culture to culture can be remarkably idiosyncratic, and they are ultimately important because we make them important, not because they really have some earth-shattering significance in the larger universal order.