For background, I dress full time. Even 3am runs to get candy see me in a binder.
That out of the way... I still don't feel comfortable using the men's restroom (it's that whole 'sacred gendered space' thing that was drilled into me during my 14 years in the public school system, no doubt). I'm not on T, I don't think I pass very well, but I've been starting to get more than just shuffled feet and strange looks on the rare occasion I go into a women's restroom. I'm still afraid of using a men's restroom, because if someone did say something that required a response, my voice will out me in an instant.
How did you guys/gals first overcome that 'changing restrooms' thing?
Wow! That is one I have felt trepidation over for some time myself. While I'm still pre-HRT and still a long way from going FT, I have had a few occasions where I had walked into the ladies restrooms. Of course the first several times don't actually qualify, because this was while I had been a restaurant manager and I would wait until the restaurant was closed and everyone (staff included) had left the building and I would (hesitantly) creep into the ladies room to take care of nature's call. Even when I knew I was the only one and that there was no way that I could be seen/caught I still had a strong apprehension. That may also been attributed to the fact that I was still in denial about being trans and going in there would open a lot of issues.
The only legitimate adventures were this past September when I attended the SCC (Southern Comfort Conference) and it was regarded as a kind of safe-zone for us to all use the restroom that we preferred or at least appropriate for how we were presenting (ladies room for me). Even though, by far, most of the women in there (the 3-4 times I went in that day) were trans, there were also a number of cis-women who were there as well. It felt wonderful to be able to just walk right in a act like I belong.
Fortunately for you, going into a men's room may prove easier. Just walk in and step into a stall, shut the door, take a deep (quiet) breath and do your thing. There is a kind of code with men in restrooms that you avoid eye contact and conversation - though there are exceptions, but those are usually people you know or know you. The best thing is to just go in with the mindset that that is where you belong - and you do. Judging by your avatar, you look like a late teen young man who is clean shaven. I wouldn't worry about it. The first few times are the worse, but if you psych yourself up and walk in with the confidence that you are a guy and this is the guys restroom, don't gawk, and take care of business, wash and exit, you'll do just fine.
I'm sure there are some restrooms that you could walk into wearing a ball gown and heels and not even be noticed. :-\
Oh, another trick I just remembered (I've done this for so long I nearly forgot I do it). If you're in a place where you can keep a sideways glance at, or towards the restrooms, keep kind of a tally on the number of guys entering and leaving and the frequency and figure out how much time you can rely on where there you will be the only one in there. (I have always been uncomfortable and self-concious in the men's room - being a girl in the wrong shell)
Deanna
The first time I went into the ladies room alone, it was at Wally World of all places. I had to go really bad and I just walk in like I owned the place. I did have my carry letter with me, just in case.
I did my business, washed my hands, checked the makeup and left. No one cared, no one looked weird. Nothing.
Janet
Quote from: Deanna_Renee on January 07, 2010, 12:46:37 PM
Judging by your avatar, you look like a late teen young man who is clean shaven.
This is nice to hear, because usually I get pegged for being about 14. Late teen would be much closer to the truth. The exhaustion helps make me look older I guess.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on January 07, 2010, 01:55:42 PM
The first time I went into the ladies room alone, it was at Wally World of all places. I had to go really bad and I just walk in like I owned the place. I did have my carry letter with me, just in case.
K-mart, is the place where I keep feeling like I could 'get away with it' because there's nobody in there, ever. I'm just afraid of someone starting sh*t, and don't like the idea of having to hide behind a letter.
I appreciate the responses. Every time I read about someone else who didn't get beaten or outed the first time they tried, I feel a little bit better about giving it a shot myself. I know, sooner or later, it'll be inevitable.
I still don't feel comfortable using the lady's room, nor do I feel comfortable using the guy's room anymore.
Everyone tells me "just do it" and it'll be easier there-after every time, so I guess that's good advice.
Unfortunately for myself, I was kicked out of the girl's bathroom at a club I used to frequent back in the day (this was in Texas), and since then have pretty much avoided going places without gender neutral bathrooms.
I do have the "F" on my driver's license now, but for me, especially pre-vaginoplasty, I just hate the idea that anyone might get a glance through the crack in the stalls and make a fuss... so yeah.
I'm so close to getting all my transitional surgeries done, I've pretty much become a hermit until it's all over with, and am at peace with that.
P.S. Based on your avatar I agree... you don't strike me as female. :icon_boogy:
The letters seem to be a lot more effective for MtFs who are having trouble with security, then they do with FtMs who are far more likely to run into people who don't care about no letter, if they can read in the first place.
Well, I'm a guy. I use the men's restroom. It isn't all that bad. You seem like you'll pass well enough at a glance or even a good stare, but it is on an extremely rare occassion that any man would speak to you in the restroom. It practically never happens. It's like a secret code men have, at least here in the states. Unless it's your child or possibly even relative or just a polite "Excuse me." No one talks.
Give it a chance and just throw yourself into the situation. That's what I did and now it's the only restroom I use. Of course I did use common sense, that's all you need. I wouldn't want to see my advice getting you into trouble now.
Walk in, do your business, don't talk, and get out. Everything should turn out fine and dandy. Good luck! ;D
The only thing that I remember from those days, was the occasional head nod or a "Whats Up'. But guys just done say anything and don't look. I think it is the fear of being called 'Gay' by their friends.
Women seem to be chattier in the bano. 'Cute shoes', 'How are you" if they know you, or checking out the competition in a club.
Janet
I have always really hated that about women's restrooms. Everyone is so chatty and in everyone else's business. It made me feel uncomfortable. When I would use it and go with my girlfriend, I would cut off the hand holding 10 feet from the entrance because I didn't want that attention.
Men are so simple and to the point. It makes me happy to use the men's room. No pressure or "feminine" standards to uphold.
:)
Quote from: No-Name on January 07, 2010, 06:03:25 PMMen are so simple and to the point. It makes me happy to use the men's room. No pressure or "feminine" standards to uphold.
:)
Ha ha. Good perspective. :laugh:
Don't look at anybody in the mens' room. Looking at men is gay. No one wants a homo.
The first time I ever used the womens' restroom I was running across one of the higher levels of my therapist's downtown professional building, we were talking and hauling ass because we both needed to pee and she had another client - she had stayed late with me. So we bolted in, did the business, she wished me well, and I was left sitting there going 'Holy crap, here I am.'
It gets easier in time.
Goddamn squatters, though. Just sit down and pee into the bowl!
Some simple rules for you:
- If anyone says anything to you in a men's room that requires a response, look at the person BRIEFLYwith a combination of shock, terror, and disgust. Then turn away and go about your business. Do NOT respond.
- If you are using an STP, never use a urinal next to an occupied urinal. If the only unoccupied urinals are next to occupied ones, pretend you need to use a stall, and use it instead. Have you ever heard of shy bladder syndrome? It's real. And devastating.
- Do not speak.
- Don't make eye contact. Ever.
Failure to obey these simple rules will put you at high risk of acquiring gay cooties. :P
Seriously, if you do this, you can be as paranoid as you'd like, and everyone will just think you're a bit of a geek, but otherwise normal. A lot of guys really don't want to be seen in the bathroom by anyone they know, so they do their best to avoid contact with anyone else, so that they can at least cling to a plausible deniability.
--
I'm full time and pass well enough; I use women's restrooms whenever I need to. The only looks I get are smiles of the "oh, hi, pardon me, you go ahead" sort. It's really not a big deal. I don't remember the first time I did. Today, for instance, I used a women's restroom on campus. Of course, this didn't mean anything, because classes aren't in session and it was at the physics building. So, naturally, there weren't any other women using it.
when i was in school mens toilets could be noisier, but that's like when you follow your football team in to pee after a match, or when you know your classmate is taking a s**t in the next stall and you shout 'what abt a courtesy flush'...otherwise i guess men usually don't speak to each other in the boys room...if any stranger do speak to you depending on the context just return a smile or act snob...actually that stranger may be gay...
my theory as to why girls chat up in the ladies is that you have to queue 50% of the time and what else can you do to kill the time?
Please note that these rules tend to do a 180 once everyone knows each other. Smoking in the boy's room and all that.
I started right about the time I started to pass, at an airport and a busy truck stop of all places. I walked in, whipped it out at the urinal, washed up and left. Looked at NOBODY. I was hoping that if anyone thought anything other of me, ie I was NOT male, that peeing at the urinal would cure that LOL.
Now that I pass >1 yr it's a non-issue.
Jay
Quote from: sneakersjay on January 08, 2010, 03:56:04 PM
I started right about the time I started to pass, at an airport and a busy truck stop of all places. I walked in, whipped it out at the urinal, washed up and left. Looked at NOBODY. I was hoping that if anyone thought anything other of me, ie I was NOT male, that peeing at the urinal would cure that LOL.
Now that I pass >1 yr it's a non-issue.
Jay
You'd think that, but you'd have no idea how many men walk in, see me at a urinal at work, and have a brain meltdown.
When I go to the women's bathroom women are always telling me they love my purse or something. So I'm just like "Thank yooooou going to pee now see ya" *shuts door* hahaha. Trust me, if you feel like you shouldn't be in there, you'll look like you don't belong in there. I don't think men talk in the men's bathroom, and you pass for a guy in my opinion, I wouldn't even know. Go for it!
I used to frequent a pub with TG community friends some of which were CDers, we went to the loo this one time and I went into a cubical after one of the CDers and the toilet seat was up. It really bothered me I think as much as it would a CIS women. I know he was a CDer and more in a male mindset but I feel it's part of the etiquette of being in a women's domain regardless.
It put me in a awkward situation of whether I should say something, I ended up not saying anything and enjoying the rest of the night... but it still bothered me.
Public toilets. I remember when I was still using the mens room. I went into the Mens room at a Casino and a big burly trucker guy said as I was leaving, "I think you're in the wrong restroom hon." In hindsight I noticed that an awful lot of those guys were staring and doing double-takes as I entered. lol. That was a wakeup call for me! This happened way back in my pre-HRT days when I hadn't yet gone out dressed as female. To this day I have not used the Mens restroom in over a decade!
And have no intention of ever doing so again :)
Quote from: sneakersjay on January 08, 2010, 03:56:04 PM
I walked in, whipped it out at the urinal, washed up and left.
jay care to enlighten how the heck did you manage a urinal without peeing over your pants (assuming you got a v instead of p back then)?
Quote from: milktea on January 10, 2010, 05:08:43 AM
jay care to enlighten how the heck did you manage a urinal without peeing over your pants (assuming you got a v instead of p back then)?
It's called an STP(stand-to-pee) device. FTMs use them so they can do just this. Hell, I use one.
Such devices are not just for trans guys:
http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/ttalpine222/ (http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/ttalpine222/)
http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21675 (http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21675)
Do I come off as ignorant? :-\ Dang.
Plenty of us FTMs use these things as our STPs. :P
Um ... no, that wasn't intended as a retort, only an addition. ;)
I just think that it's ironic: I'm in two groups that have an interest in the subject, but in both groups I'm in the subgroup that doesn't have any practical interest -- that is, climbers and transsexuals have an interest, but not male-bodied climbers or MTF transsexuals. But by belonging to both those generally uninterested subgroups -- being an MTF climber -- it means that I have some practical interest after all.
Honestly the first time I used the mens room I sat there and stared at the door for a good 15 minutes until my girlfriend at the time shoved me and told me to just do it. We were at bamboozle (if anyone is familiar) and there were a million guys in there at all times. I was really nervous but I just took a deep breath walked in and waited in line just like everyone else, no one talked regardless of the dozens of people crammed in there together. No one even cared. After that I had no problem.
When I first started to get away from using female bathrooms, I used unisex ones first just to ease myself into it. I went to a campus were there were several in one building and I'd go to the one with the urinal for "practice".
After I felt comfortable with those, I would find single stall locking men's rooms. Those are the ones with just the toilet, possibly a urinal, and a sink. That way I could be using the bathroom I wanted to but with privacy.
I mostly try to look for those or unisex bathrooms because of the area I live in, but when I feel safe, I use regular men's bathrooms and just go in the stall. If I have my stp, I use it. If I don't, I don't worry about it.
Men's restrooms are honestly NOT a big deal. At all. No, really. I'm not on T, don't even shave the "peach fuzz" stuff yet... etc. But I've still used multi-stall men's restrooms with no problem whatsoever. They're not kidding when they say no one talks or makes eye contact. It's a completely different atmosphere from women's restrooms. It's all about doing your business and getting outta there. Just go in with confidence.
If it'll help, see if you can find a cis guy who supports you and would be willing to go into the bathroom too. I highly doubt ->-bleeped-<- would go down, but just having him there would hopefully make it easier for you to feel the kind of confidence necessary.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on January 10, 2010, 07:08:41 PM
But by belonging to both those generally uninterested subgroups -- being an MTF climber -- it means that I have some practical interest after all.
I was thinking about this just the other day.
Over thanksgiving break me and like 5 friends went to the Red River Gorge in Kentucky for our yearly thanksgiving break sport climbing trip to the Red. I was thinking to myself when we were out there that the next time I come out here, I'm going to have a much harder time peeing. Then, earlier this week I was thinking about getting and using an STP for those trips. Taking your harness on and off sucks enough (at least I think so), and having to pee like 8 times a day in the woods suck enough without having to take it off. Having to take my harness off that many times just to pee would be miserable.
I can totally sympathize with female climbers now.
As for using the restrooms, I just one day started using the womens room. Basically the day I went full time. I haven't had any trouble. Sometimes I get a weird look when I talk (my voice is pretty much man) when I'm in there, but I'm totally over it. Just do it, it's really not that bad.
Just to repeat what has been said several times and is really all you need to know about using the men's room.
Go in.
Don't make any eye contact.
Don't speak. If someone speaks to just grunt and walk on.
Do what you need to, then leave.
Don't stare at yourself in the mirror.
Just had a think and that last comment about staring iin the mirror?
Ignore it. It was patronising and unnecessary. I apologise.
Quote from: No-Name on January 10, 2010, 12:45:09 PM
It's called an STP(stand-to-pee) device. FTMs use them so they can do just this. Hell, I use one.
wow i'm the ignorant one here...always had to use the cubicle. got to check this one out.
i'll say pee standing must be very cool esp when you have to use a messed up cubicle...
Quote from: milktea on January 12, 2010, 09:20:21 AM
wow i'm the ignorant one here...always had to use the cubicle. got to check this one out.
i'll say pee standing must be very cool esp when you have to use a messed up cubicle...
Aw, it's okay. :) It's something I'm sure most of us don't know and then of course, we do! So now you know and all you have to do is get/make one and practice. ;D
Quote from: spacial on January 12, 2010, 06:39:23 AM
Don't stare at yourself in the mirror.
lol - I don't find this patronizing in the least. The idea of some guy going into the bathroom, following all the 'rules' and then standing in front of the mirror for 15 minutes and primping sent me into a fit of laughter. :laugh:
i tend to go in to panic and usually if im with a friend i get them to stand outside and wait for me so they can listen out for any signs of a fight.
When im on my own its worse, i just take a deep breath, close my eyes and walk in and straight to the cubicle furthest from the urinals, concentrate on the cubicle door then when im in there i can relax for a minute then after that i just open the door, wash my hands, refrain from doing anything but that ation and leave
But my god. In those few moments that im in that bathroom i swear my heart beats so fast i come close to cardiac arrest lol
Quote from: Cody Oriole on January 12, 2010, 04:09:45 PM
lol - I don't find this patronizing in the least. The idea of some guy going into the bathroom, following all the 'rules' and then standing in front of the mirror for 15 minutes and primping sent me into a fit of laughter. :laugh:
Haha, I must have been the weird one (then again, I am m2f so I guess I was just in the wrong room). When I was a boy I always checked myself out in the mirror in the mens room. Maybe not 15 minutes, but I made sure my hair was good, my clothes were good, etc (would've checked my makeup if I wore it). I also talked to my friends in there, and I talked to random guys. Meh, nobody ever seemed to care or if they did, they didn't show it.
The thought behind the original suggestion was for a FtM who is feeling a little uncomfortable and perhaps worried about someone accosting them.
I too have spent time in the mens, combing my hair, or having a chat with someone.
But for an FtM, who's just starting to use the men's room, that might be a bit too much.
Once they have been in a few times, got use to the environment, relaxed a bit, they won't need ay advice at all.
I re-considered it, within the context of that post, because, after some thought, I realised it might need some clarification. The post was intended to sum up, briefly.
When I was living as female, I went into the lady's room a few times.
First time, I was so scared, I was shaking. I was dressed as a female so couldn't use the mens and I really needed to go. I really thought I was going to be attacked by a bunch of big women before being dragged out by some burly guys and beaten to a pulp.
I went in. Into a stall. The hardest bit was starting. Left the stall, washed my hands then left.
There were several women in there, not one took a second glance at me.
So, the only point I was making is that, using the rest room, relax, be confident and just do it.
Quote from: Noah on January 17, 2010, 12:03:19 PM
But my god. In those few moments that im in that bathroom i swear my heart beats so fast i come close to cardiac arrest lol
chill dude...its not a big deal really. what's the worst that can happen? getting thrown out? sure thing nobody's going to call the cops on you. i got spotted a number of times in the past and when someone say 'hey this is the mens room' i just turn around and walk out...
Quote from: milktea on January 19, 2010, 10:23:09 AM
chill dude...its not a big deal really. what's the worst that can happen? getting thrown out? sure thing nobody's going to call the cops on you. i got spotted a number of times in the past and when someone say 'hey this is the mens room' i just turn around and walk out...
getting thrown out i dont mind, getting beaten to a pulp for being a '->-bleeped-<-' i do mind.
ive nearly been beaten up for it several times so my confidence is knocked slightly
Noah, you have my sympathy and understanding. I know what it's like to be on the wrong end of male aggression, enough that I have to confess trans guys make me uncomfortable sometimes. It's not that they're trans or that their guys (though guys sometimes make me uncomfortable in general), but that their transition triggers bad memories. Seeing them among other guys, around strong, assertive, and violent (at least in my recollection of life in the savage sex), I see people weak like me clamoring for a seat in the lion's den. All trans people have to face the possibility of violence from men, but at least trans women, in particular trans lesbians, often have the privilege of being able to distance themselves. I certainly feel I do.
You don't need to tell me that's a misperception based on fear -- because I know that's exactly what it is. Even if it's true, my perspective is really skewed. But knowing that doesn't change my fear response.
Quote from: june bug on January 07, 2010, 02:49:58 PMI just hate the idea that anyone might get a glance through the crack in the stalls and make a fuss...
I really wouldn't worry about that. I've never seen a woman peeking through the cracks at a stall. Sometimes they'll look under the stall door just to see if someone's in there, but never enough to see the woman sitting on the toilet. I'd say you're safe. Then again, I've never really paid much attention to who or what's going on in the women's toilet anyway.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on January 08, 2010, 01:13:05 AM
Have you ever heard of shy bladder syndrome? It's real. And devastating.
I had that all my life and could never ever go to the toilet standing up always had to use the cubical and sit down. Of course I was always a girl in the wrong place I suppose, lol
Confidence in where you should be is the key. I started using the ladies when I couldn't pass in the men's any more and it gets easier the more times you use the right toilet for your presenting gender.
Stardust