I get into some interesting conversations at my new job. It`s just training but some of these convos aren`t exactly work place friendly but oh well. Our `group`consists of: A guy name Matthew(starts the perverted and controversial conversations), Stephanie, Kaitlyn, and I.
Today Matthew started by asking if we suddenly woke up the next morning as the oppsite gender, would we go homosexual phsyical or mentally (Ie, were Kaitlyn to wake up male, would she date women or guys still) because of this I knew SRS was going to come up at some point in the day.
It did, at the end of the day. Matthew mentioned he was watching something called `Manswers` or something like that and they were talking about how to spot a cross dresser. The point he chose to bring up was looking at the hands. I asked him if he meant size of the hands, since some males can have small femnine looking hands. Lifting his hand up to demonstrate he replied `What they said was, that all genetic male`s index fingers are level, or inline, with their third finger. However in females the lengths are differe, one being longer than the other.` He, and the man beside him who had listened in showed that it was true (at least on them), the girls in the group checked thiers to see that they were not level.
Then I checked mine and... well they aren`t the same length *gasp* So either this theory is bogus, OR it has to do with hormones in the womb. In the case that is has something to do in hormones in the womb, that proper males have finger lengths equal in this case. Then would that mean the fact that mine are not, PROVE genetically speaking that I am trans
Thoughts anyone, personally I don`t believe it but that`s just me. Fun to think about though
P.S. Sorry for the lack of question marks, but mine is not working at the moment. It happens sometimes and I don`t know why. I have to restart the computer to fix it normally. All it gives me now is this .....É oh yea greaterthan, lessthan, qoutation marks and stuff don`t work either when this happens.
I heard about this a while ago and held up my hands to see. When I saw the results I just sighed. On one hand the fingers were equal length. On the other they were not.
Story of my life. I don't fit into anyone's gender categories.
Like you, I have no idea if there's anything to back this up.
That theory is so much manure. Mine are different. And I know of women whose hands are bigger than mine. But my hands are wider than most women.
There are small ways to tell but you would have to observer someone for a bit to see them. First impressions are the best way to tell and even then you could be wrong.
The answer to the question is that --- WAIT A MINUTE WHO CARES HOW YOU CAN SPOT A CROSS DRESSER WTF WHAT A JERK -- ... ahem. Excuse me.
Um... Yes. Matthew is a jerk. Maybe a nice guy in some ways, but he's definitely a selfish jerk if he thinks it's okay to "start peverted and controversial conversations." In America, that would likely fall under the category of "creating a hostile work environment." It's really not okay. And your discomfort in this situation is precisely the reason why. Now I'm not saying to go find a lawyer and rake him over the coals. But you might tell a supervisor a general comment about the overly-lewd environment, that you're worried "someone" might get offended, or even tell Matthew to his face.
I had an office mate (and I have certainly had more than one coworker) that liked to talk about "perverted and controversial topics" -- the one I am thinking about used to sporadically say ridiculously homophobic and transphobic things. He was a nice guy, and clueless, but definitely a bigot. It really sucked trying to pretend I didn't care.
So, as for your fingers, yes there's supposed to be some weak correlation between thinkgs like finger length rations, direction of the hair whorl, elbow carry angle, etc. and intrauterine hormonal levels, and trans or gay identification. Some. It's not terribly strong. It neither proves nor disproves anything. And who cares, anyway? Etiology of trans identity is certainly a fascinating topic, but if you transition because you find some natural mechanism that explains why you "ought" to be a woman, then you're transitioning for the wrong reasons. You should transition because you are pretty near certain it will make your life better. But, yes, it's pretty interesting to think about. I believe questions about trans identities and experiences can probe deeply into the question of what it means to be a person.
Back to Matthew: Why does he want to be able to "spot a crossdresser"? Why not spend that effort learning to distinguish between Vietnamese and Thai women instead? (Or something equally irrelevant.) Is he into trans women? Is he a closet case, and wants to "explore" or something like that? Probably, he want to be able to out trans women. Which is a lousy thing to do. Perhaps he's afraid that one will come on to him. You can tell him he needn't worry. But should he find himself in an amorous relationship with a trans woman, as long as he's having a good time, why should he care? Is he afraid he'll discover he is gay? And ... so what? And why would that make him gay anyway? And so on. These are the really burning questions.
I totally agree with Alyssa.
The guy is a class one jerk. I have to discipline (Oops, counsel) some of these bigots in my work place. They are in the main small minded people who 'claim' they never intended any harm by insulting women in the work force, by touching women, "Oh it was an accident, I didn't mean to touch her bottom".. and worse in some cases. But one got really upset when one of the girls fought back by addressing him as a pervert in every conversation, with him and with his co-workers. " Yes I got the report from the pervert" "Jack and Pervert are you going to the footy on the weekend" I had to counsel her as well but I had a smile on my face while I did so.
Report him and ignore him. Hurtful comments are just that. Hurtful. And you don't need to suffer hurt at work. IMO.
Cindy
That theory is even more ridiculous than the arm bend one.
"Manswers" lol....
This idea seems really silly to me, but I can't even answer the question because depending how and where you measure, my ring finger could be a) shorter, b) longer, or c) the same length as my index finger o.o. I inherited this goofy shape from my mom, which I found out when I compared hands with her one time and saw she has the same funky thing going on. Fat rings just do not work on our ring fingers.
As for where trans-ness comes from and whether or not something "proves" a biological basis for it, and all that. I dunno, the more I come to terms with this whole gender thing, the less important finding out the truth of its actual origin seems.
here in UK any unpleasant conversation will get the person a quick trip to the supervisors office and accidentally touching another person will see them out the door...
matthew the jerk has some problems directly related to hidden or suppressed homsexuality...but tries to deflect any thoughts that he may by constantly pointing out others 'perversions'...it's a smokescreen...it's called Malignant Bisexuality Syndrome...I worked for a guy who constantly sneered at TS and gays...then he was outed as one of the homos who got together in a barn in the woods...
Apparently it's called digit ratio and like anything it's inconclusive, everyone is different and not everything can be put in groups, columns and boxes right? The joys of nature.
For a lot of people if they're exposed to certain hormones in the womb then it's purely physical I'd say and means nothing to your gender, just a case of bad luck!!! :P
When it comes to scientific study of hands and finger ratio's, everyone might as well wear big, fluffy gloves; http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/readings/homofinger/homo_finger.html (http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/readings/homofinger/homo_finger.html)
From the page of Simon LeVay (also contains the finger ratio study (emphasis on sexuality) and a fingerprints one)
QuoteComment: None of these anatomical studies inspire tremendous confidence, though the D2:D4 findings in women seem the best documented, and are consistent with the prenatal hormone theory.
(source) (http://www.simonlevay.com/the-biology-of-sexual-orientation).
When it comes to the dude, sounds to me like he's just a little dog waiting for someone to throw a ball. Personally I'd likely make a 'I saw a study about how penis size is directly influenced by non-verbal communication...' remark, but it's kind of sad and mean to throw a ball in a dog's face I suppose. ;)
Ok, for starters he has it wrong.
What he's talking about is the finger index ratio, or your index finger length divided by your ring finger length. Most women have a ratio of 1 (same length) or higher (longer index finger), most men have about 0.96 (longer ring finger). The difference is most noticeable in your dominant hand.
Keep an eye on it, you'll find it's pretty true. Most men appear to have a longer ring finger, women a longer index finger. It's said that finger index ratio and genitals are the two major physically visible sexually dimorphic characteristics at birth, both influenced by the levels of hormones in the womb. Some studies have shown MTF's on average fit into the female norm of 1 or higher.
Studies have also shown many other traits related to index ratio, ability at math, sports, sexual orientation, etc.
Once again, obviously there are exceptions to the rule. But it's a relatively accurate phenomenon.
There's a lot of utter rubbish trans spotting things out there, and for trans spotting, this one is especially rubbish because MTF's fall into the same average as genetic females, which is one of the basis's of the argument that TS is something you're born, rather than from environmental origins.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBX-4H16P9S-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e04f0b33aa587b1527a757ce04a3cad4 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBX-4H16P9S-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e04f0b33aa587b1527a757ce04a3cad4)
Quote from: Diana_W on January 19, 2010, 12:36:15 AM
I heard about this a while ago and held up my hands to see. When I saw the results I just sighed. On one hand the fingers were equal length. On the other they were not.
Story of my life. I don't fit into anyone's gender categories.
Like you, I have no idea if there's anything to back this up.
Mine are the same way.
so would kaitlyn date men or women?
Quote from: Dana Lane on January 19, 2010, 04:01:23 AM
Mine are the same way.
Better question is which one is longer? Index or Ring?
Quote from: Adrianna on January 19, 2010, 12:21:35 AM
P.S. Sorry for the lack of question marks, but mine is not working at the moment. It happens sometimes and I don`t know why. I have to restart the computer to fix it normally. All it gives me now is this .....É oh yea greaterthan, lessthan, qoutation marks and stuff don`t work either when this happens.
Is it a PS2 or a USB keyboard? The possible problems and solutions are different for both.
BTW: That is a generality about males and females. Much like men are taller than women. It is mostly true, but not always. Mine are different, I've known that for a while, I'm not sure if that makes me intersexed or not.
-Sandy
Quote from: Adrianna on January 19, 2010, 12:21:35 AM
`What they said was, that all genetic male`s index fingers are level, or inline, with their third finger. However in females the lengths are differe, one being longer than the other.` He, and the man beside him who had listened in showed that it was true (at least on them), the girls in the group checked thiers to see that they were not level.
And the second sign of madness is looking for hairs on the palm of your hand.
School boy stuff which kinda demonstrates this fellow is not really ready for the world of work.
I agree tasha but the hands are such a big issue along with foot size and shoulder/hips ratio. The biggest physical hurdles some TS girls have to get over during early transition IMO.
I find no matter where I go I'm always conscious of them and try my best to hide them or position them in a way that doesn't make them stand out, yet on the other hand it's not like kids come up to me asking if I can palm a basketball lol >_>
Conversely, I have met transmen with beards and pattern baldness who were so effective looking I thought they were guys exploring transitioning to female when they showed up at my former support group. However they always had smooth small hands that outed them. We didn't get a lot of f/m's in that group, so I really wasn't expected one when they showed up. We did get a lot of m/f's who came in "drab" for multiple reasons.
xsocialworker: i think it's relatively easy if one is unhappy with his hands being 'smooth', try doing laundry with cold water in winter and then not dry your hands afterwards, never use handcream, take apart your car and put it back again every sunday...won't take too long before you can use your hands as sandpaper... >:-)
and on cars...i heard that men hold their steering wheel on the sides or top and women more towards the bottom, or is it the other way? but definitely men has much higher probability of one hand driving..
I heard that men always push doors open with two hands to establish dominance as they enter a room. ~.^
And women use the shoulder cause most outer doors are too heavy in public buildings-----------?
The only true way to tell someone's gender is to DNA test them. Look at the problems they had with the South African athlete at the world championship last year
Quote from: Sandy on January 19, 2010, 05:46:25 AM
Is it a PS2 or a USB keyboard? The possible problems and solutions are different for both.
Neither, just the normal keyboard that came with the computer.
Wow, just... wow. I go to sleep and when I wake up I have to pages of posts! I didn't know this would get so heated. As for all those bashing poor Matthew. YES he starts conversations that can be considered perverted, or controversial. However, our group doesn't mind. In fact it's our fault for furthering the conversations. I do not feel uncomfrotable talking about what we talking about, and I don't think Stephanie or Kaitlyn do either. If they did, and said so I'm sure Matt would stop. I don't think he is worried about trans women (or men) it's just something he found interesting on a show he was watching and decided to bring it up since the conversation hit "sex changes" at the end of the day.
I'm actually glad he brought it up, because it was a chance for me to explain everything I knew about sex changes and GID; let me clear some misconceptions up. He has not asked me if I am trans, though his comment was "HOLY CRAP!.... How do you know so much?" Though if he asked me, my wife tells me I HAVE to tell him lol. Though yea I probably will, why hide it.
Quote from: Pippa on January 19, 2010, 11:56:47 AM
The only true way to tell someone's gender is to DNA test them.
Still worthless.
There simply is no concrete way to determine someone's sex/gender at this time. There's a million different indicators, but they're all flawed.
Guess science wasn't your best subject. But DNA -and you don't even have to go that far - can determine sex. But perhaps, not gender.
Quote from: Adrianna on January 19, 2010, 12:36:17 PM
Neither, just the normal keyboard that came with the computer.
The symptom smacks of being a problem in the keyboard. More than likely if the computer has was made in the last 5 years or so, it is a USB keyboard (the connector is rectangular).
If so, try plugging/replugging the keyboard (without restarting the computer) to see if that helps. Also, how much detritus has built up in the keyboard (dirt, hair, crumbs, ashes). If it has been well used, it could be time for a good cleaning or retirement. Basic keyboards would be given away in Crackerjack boxes if they could figure out a way to get them in there, so finding a replacement should be pretty simple.
If it is a round connector, it is a PS2 style keyboard and plugging/replugging could actually crash your machine, so do try to detect the difference.
Regardless, replacement is a viable option.
-Sandy
Where I work, the boss was a little freaked out because he thought a new female hire was a TS. He still hired her and treated her respectfully, but was more than curious. No one ever asked her directly, and the interest died down eventually. Personally, I thought she just had a body type that was not stereotypically "feminine." (I am not out at work, so my appearance does not get discussed - as far as I know). I think it could have been bad for her if the boss was not so aware of anti-discrimination and anti-hostile environment laws - and the boss was not basically a nice, if ignorant, guy.
How to tell someone is, well, whatever, is one of those things that shouldn't be important. If I am not going to have sex with you, your genitalia or orientation or identity are not my business. It comes up, as I described above, for many people who do not have a conventional appearance. Or for many people in contact with people who think it is their business.
I push the idea you cannot really tell. Whatever science says is based on groups - groups - and individuals are unique and gloriously variable. (My index and ring fingers are the same size - and that means exactly nothing - individual variation is to big for these things to mean anything about an individual).
So the only way you can tell whatever a person is, is to ask them. And they can say its "none of your business," or they may not know. Still, I guess its fun to speculate sometimes - as long as no one gets hurt.
Quote from: tekla on January 19, 2010, 03:04:33 PM
Guess science wasn't your best subject. But DNA -and you don't even have to go that far - can determine sex. But perhaps, not gender.
How? Chromosomes? Can you honestly, with a straight face tell me you think women with CAIS or Swyer syndrome are actually, really, men? Really? If we didn't know about chromosomes we wouldn't have any reason to call them men to begin with. Why is everyone so hung up on this chromosome thing? It's a rule that nature breaks all the time, just like everything else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETIxoQGVjos# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETIxoQGVjos#)
Guess she's really a man then.
Chromosomes are a near useless sex/gender (I don't really care about the literal differences with them either) indicator. I don't know about you, but I trust what I can see and hear over two letters that make no apparent difference.
When it comes to sex/gender (I'm trying hard not to get people to jump on me over the difference) I would still argue that there are exceptions to EVERY rule, and there is NO clear marker. You just have to go on what you see.
If you want to believe that chromosomes are the law and there is no room for interpretation, meaning that people are potentially male or female with absolutely no respect to what should be obvious that they aren't, obviously you have every right to that interpretation. But it makes me sad that some people (I'm not talking about you specifically) are so narrow minded and have this error prone belief that chromosomes are the final word.
Chromosomes are an even worse indicator of sex than genitals are.
Some you would spot very easily in a shopping mall......and some (a very small percent) you would never know in a million years!
I've always looked at it as natal females that have one of the big three or more also have a million things that make them female to even the keel, when a TS has one of the big three or more then it's added to the already established list of other gender queues that give them away which tips the scales big time.
I understand your point and in a perfect world sure, but to me it's unrealistic to just tell people to get over their hang ups as it's just not that simple for a lot of us, we deal with it in our own time and in our own way. I don't think people go looking for things to complain about, if they do then sure there's a problem. But some things are just hard to get over, takes time.
I've had my mum tell me my hands are fine and another time say they will give me away and both times I believed her.
My biggest fear when I'm out in public is not the things that give me away but simply that they'll see me as a guy dressed as a girl as a whole, sure that will hopefully change in time.. but it's very real and I'm not going to delude myself.
Today in a shop I updated an account from my old name to my new name and the guy didn't bat an eyelid, but the young girl afterwards at the counter obviously picked me and was nervous and kept looking at my boobs to see if they were real. I don't think it effected me but it's very much there in my face.. a cruel reminder of how much I have to try to better myself. Not just for others but for me, for peace of mind.
And in the eyes of my local TG community I apparently pass without a worry :S
Maybe I am mad.
So this is my theory, and it can def be much easier to say than do:
But I feel that it is a one thing for a person that's been labeled a boy or man to come to terms with the realization that she really is a girl, but it is a whole different and bigger thing to come to terms with the reality that she is a TS girl or woman. I feel that when people transition before they've taken that second step they can open themselves up to all kinds of problems- one of them being living with a complex about being read all the time. If somebody reads you as being a TS girl, so what? You are a TS girl! It makes you no less a girl than does an Asian girl's being Asian.
Confidence will help you pass, being a nerotic mess will not.
Another detriment to being in public before finding your peace with being trans, especially for full-timers, is this business of making up a back-story/deep stealth stuff. You've emancipated yourself from living a lie and then stepped right back into living a new one. I just don't see the benefit in that without some extenuating circumstances forcing you into it, which happens.
Don't get me wrong, I don't promote wearing your transness on your sleeve or anything, I sure as hell don't do that. Frankly, it's nobody's business and you have zero obligation to tell anybody unless you so choose, with very few exceptions. But if it comes up and you feel like you have to talk about 10 years ago (or whatever) and you'd rather not bother with avoiding the topic for w/e reason, why not be honest? Be who you are, own it, love it.
Think of it this way, if you are an awesome person and people find out/figure out you're trans, they should realize OMG, TS women can be awesome, I never knew! And you'll have done all of us some good. We all have the ability to advocate for our entire community just by living well and being rad. How easy is that?
Sure beats getting sprayed with a firehose. =P
I don't have anything to add; I just came to say thanks for posting that, Jen. :)
<3
Quote from: Ashley4214 on January 19, 2010, 05:09:12 PM
How? Chromosomes? Can you honestly, with a straight face tell me you think women with CAIS or Swyer syndrome are actually, really, men? Really? If we didn't know about chromosomes we wouldn't have any reason to call them men to begin with. Why is everyone so hung up on this chromosome thing? It's a rule that nature breaks all the time, just like everything else.
Not by XX/XY maybe. But faulty androgen receptor genes are present in them. Unless there's some sort of radical hormonal intervention during early developmental periods, it's all in the genes.
Quote from: SilverFang on January 20, 2010, 03:13:50 AM
Not by XX/XY maybe. But faulty androgen receptor genes are present in them. Unless there's some sort of radical hormonal intervention during early developmental periods, it's all in the genes.
Ok so, if I understand you correctly, the XX vs XY rules don't count if there is another genetic defect causing insensitivity or deficiency in production of sex hormones in the womb.
So then... wouldn't that mean that genes determine only what gender you appear to be at birth, and we're only deciding that one set or characteristics mean one thing based on appearance at birth?
It seems to me like you're changing the rules to suit the exceptions.
If XX vs XY doesn't matter because other genetic defects can cause them not to matter, but it only doesn't matter if those genetic defects are present at birth.
And what if gender dysphoria is present at birth? Does that exception not count as an exception? Why does one thing count as an exception and another not purely based on what your phenotypical birth appears to be?
And what if you have ambiguous genitalia? Do we then go by chromosomes despite how flawed they are?
These don't seem to be easy questions to resolve trying to maintain such a simplistic viewpoint.
If you ask me, the simplest most accurate way to determine sex/gender, is to simply look and listen to the person and let visible reality tell you. Everything else is flawed and arbitrary.
Quote from: Jen on January 19, 2010, 11:01:44 PM
So this is my theory, and it can def be much easier to say than do:
But I feel that it is a one thing for a person that's been labeled a boy or man to come to terms with the realization that she really is a girl, but it is a whole different and bigger thing to come to terms with the reality that she is a TS girl or woman. I feel that when people transition before they've taken that second step they can open themselves up to all kinds of problems- one of them being living with a complex about being read all the time. If somebody reads you as being a TS girl, so what? You are a TS girl! It makes you no less a girl than does an Asian girl's being Asian.
I'd say I fall into the category of not accepting that I'm TS simply because I hate it.. I don't want to be seen as TS. I just want to be normal which will no doubt never happen but I'm sure as hell going to try. I can't be male and I refuse to be a TS for the rest of my life. I'm not sure if I'm setting myself up for a fall maybe just raising the bar to really difficult heights. Maybe one day I will unknowingly accept that I am TS but I will replace the word TS with woman which is deluding myself I know but if it works then I'll be happy.
I just know that every time I don't pass in the future a part of me will feel hate for being what I really am, something I feel forced to accept because of others.
I just wish (like everyone reading this no doubt) the general publics view of (mtf) TSs was that of being a women with a tough past not men/freaks in dresses that may or may not still have a hidden package.
----------------
Quote from: Jen on January 19, 2010, 11:01:44 PM
Think of it this way, if you are an awesome person and people find out/figure out you're trans, they should realize OMG, TS women can be awesome, I never knew! And you'll have done all of us some good. We all have the ability to advocate for our entire community just by living well and being rad. How easy is that?
Sure beats getting sprayed with a firehose. =P
Sure we'll all find people that are cool and accepting and will realise that we are human after all. But there will always be those few that feel it's necessary to remind us of what we really are. And it's because of them that I have to think of myself as a TS woman, instead of having the liberty to know myself as just a women with an interesting background. It's because of them that I have to laugh and say "yeah I am TS and I am awesome".
I really wish I had it in me to fly the flag but I can't I need to feel that transition is something temporary and that I will be me (female) and not forever a TS just because of a few bad apples.
Maybe I need to delude myself, maybe I need to to feel like I'm just a woman. It's an option, and yeah.. sure it's not as good as being proud to be TS but... I feel it will work for me .. I guess much like stealth works for some.
I'm with you 100% Muffin.
muffin i can understand why you don't want to be called a ts and you don't have to feel obligated to publicise your history to anyone around you, but i think deep down we all know we are not totally woman, at least mentally...i mean, come'on, living all those years in your current opposite gender for x years is sure to do something to you.
Quote from: Ashley4214 on January 20, 2010, 03:38:54 AM
Ok so, if I understand you correctly, the XX vs XY rules don't count if there is another genetic defect causing insensitivity or deficiency in production of sex hormones in the womb.
So then... wouldn't that mean that genes determine only what gender you appear to be at birth, and we're only deciding that one set or characteristics mean one thing based on appearance at birth?
It seems to me like you're changing the rules to suit the exceptions.
If XX vs XY doesn't matter because other genetic defects can cause them not to matter, but it only doesn't matter if those genetic defects are present at birth.
And what if gender dysphoria is present at birth? Does that exception not count as an exception? Why does one thing count as an exception and another not purely based on what your phenotypical birth appears to be?
And what if you have ambiguous genitalia? Do we then go by chromosomes despite how flawed they are?
These don't seem to be easy questions to resolve trying to maintain such a simplistic viewpoint.
If you ask me, the simplest most accurate way to determine sex/gender, is to simply look and listen to the person and let visible reality tell you. Everything else is flawed and arbitrary.
Well nobody's really sure yet as far as I know? Who knows? Maybe gender is genetically determined. There could be a gene for it, seeing as how we don't really know what all the genes do yet. Gender dysphoria might just be a milder form of intersexuality. As for intersexuality, I still blame hormone receptors/abnormal production.
Anyway, I was just referring to physical sex. I'm not qualified to determine anyone's gender. Easier to just tell me.
But yeah, my point is that if we were advanced enough then genetic testing would be able to "out" a TS. But we can't with current technology.
Milktea, I was almost there with you. But then your post went haywire.
I don't feel any need to disclose any of my history to anyone. But neither am I ashamed to be transsexual. It's part of my life. I'm also white, right-handed, and brown-haired. None of that has any bearing on whether I'm a woman. So I will say that I'm transsexual, even if I don't proclaim it from the hilltops.
But if your definition of transsexual implies "not totally a woman," then fuggedaboutit. I want nothing to do with that. If that is the only definition available, I'll stand firmly with the people who say they're "not trans-anything." Look: I am a woman. And I am real. Conclusion: I am a real woman. If you insist upon some arbitrary definition of woman that singles out transsexual woman as inauthentic, that's your problem. Good luck with that.
As for all that genetic reductionist nonsense -- obviously you all aren't all that good at science. Sure, genes are hugely influential and highly correlated to specific types of outcomes, but there's a lot more that goes into making a person than genes. It's not even a nature/nurture argument: nurture is nature. There's no bright line.
edit: stupid typos.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on January 20, 2010, 06:22:46 PM
nurture is nature. There's no bright line.
^ I love that :)
...and totally agree with everything else you said.
Post Merge: January 20, 2010, 11:44:30 AM
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Okay and the rest of this is for Muffin-
Maybe one day I will unknowingly accept that I am TSI think your life will be much easier for you when that day comes. I think you understand that though :).
I think I have a different way of thinking about the word "Transsexual" than you do. For me, TS is a pronoun not a noun. Like, I don't identify as a TS, it just is part of who I am. I would never ever ever ...ever say I'm a transsexual. I might, however, say I'm a TS woman, just like I'm a tall woman, or a white woman. TS, for me, is really just shorthand for woman born male. ...Does that help, maybe?
Also, I don't want you to misunderstand this, I wasn't suggesting that anybody "fly the flag" all I was trying to convey was if you weren't ashamed of this aspect of your womanhood, then talking honestly about your past (if you needed to) wouldn't have to be so horrifying anymore- which more importantly, means you wouldn't have to keep track of a fictional past-- which even more importantly, means you wouldn't have to be living a new kind of lie.
Personally, I have no interest in advertising my past. In practice I avoid such subjects. I'll say something like 'I don't like talking about my childhood' or whatever. For 99.9% of people I meet, it just isn't their business.
I need to feel that transition is something temporary and that I will be me (female) and not forever a TS just because of a few bad apples.
Maybe I need to delude myself, maybe I need to to feel like I'm just a woman.Transition is temporary, by definition. You will be female afterward, and you always have been, always will be a girl/woman. Transition is just the process of pulling down the facade you've been hiding behind and revealing the real person underneath. This is partly why I just can't imagine putting up a new, albeit prettier, one (fake past) after getting rid of that thing.
You don't even have to be proud of your TS-iness, just try be okay with it. Self-loathing is no fun.
I actually totally agree with all of that. I didn't want to get into all those details because I was already being wordy enough. =P
I dunno if the last bit was directed at me, but if so you have completely misunderstood my intended meaning. It's okay though, it happens to me enough that I know it's a 'me' thing. :)
Arguing with people that agree with me gets a little exhausting though.
Quote from: Adrianna on January 19, 2010, 12:21:35 AM
Lifting his hand up to demonstrate he replied `What they said was, that all genetic male`s index fingers are level, or inline, with their third finger. However in females the lengths are differe, one being longer than the other.`
Bio-male here, with fingers that are not even length.
Just adding another data point to the discussion :)
Quote from: riven_one on January 21, 2010, 10:18:03 AM
Bio-male here, with fingers that are not even length.
Just adding another data point to the discussion :)
OMG, that's a game changer! now you know your really a TS, LOL
Quote from: Ketsy on January 19, 2010, 01:38:51 AM
That theory is even more ridiculous than the arm bend one.
I respectfully disagree Ketsy, I think the arm bend "research" is the biggest load of crap "science" has come up with in a while...in this particular area.
Quote from: Becca on January 21, 2010, 11:29:24 PM
I respectfully disagree Ketsy, I think the arm bend "research" is the biggest load of crap "science" has come up with in a while...in this particular area.
Also, the index ratio thing has actual published studies relating to it. I'm not aware of any on that arm bend thing, in fact I've only ever seen one source of the arm bend theory, I've seen several for index ratio.
And index ratio is already correlated with several other things.
So yeah, far from more ridiculous, I would say it's not ridiculous at all. Although it's still nothing to do with it being even or not. A longer index finger indicates more feminized prenatal hormone exposure, not less.
There's a LOT of crap that circulates, that when something like this comes along, it's very easy to dismiss it as crap too. But there's a lot of research that suggests index ratio is at the very least, not a purely random characteristic.
And there's no question that most females have a higher ratio than most males.
Google if you don't believe me.
"Published studies" that are not peer-reviewed double-bind based, are pretty much 'not science.'
Being on Google is not proof of anything, the Aryan Movement web site is on Google too, it does not make them 'right.'
Quote from: tekla on January 21, 2010, 11:50:40 PM
"Published studies" that are not peer-reviewed double-bind based, are pretty much 'not science.'
Being on Google is not proof of anything, the Aryan Movement web site is on Google too, it does not make them 'right.'
Fine, since you won't spend the 2 minutes googling, I will.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TBX-4H16P9S-1/2/ae91dff18b1b99385054e3bf971d47f9 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TBX-4H16P9S-1/2/ae91dff18b1b99385054e3bf971d47f9)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T4T-47RJP8F-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=768614bee6bde4a232c96e1eee2337cf (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T4T-47RJP8F-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=768614bee6bde4a232c96e1eee2337cf)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T4T-4CYWRB6-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=bb016ad43037249035bbc574d756372b (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T4T-4CYWRB6-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=bb016ad43037249035bbc574d756372b)
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/40/12/981 (http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/40/12/981)
http://www.springerlink.com/content/9djv5bt7gy0jbxbm/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/9djv5bt7gy0jbxbm/)
I really don't feel like finding more since you are perfectly capable of doing so yourself.
But please don't choose to intentionally misinterpret what I say by suggesting that I said that being on google made it proof.
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on January 21, 2010, 11:45:15 PM
fine, but it has very little to do with us.
its another artificial "more trans than you marker" that will be used to make some people feel that they are inauthentic or not real....we have enough problems coming to terms with being trans without misapplied science playing on our fears.
Ignoring information we don't like doesn't make it go away.
Topics like this really get my panties in a knot, and I tried really hard not to weigh in but the bull->-bleeped-<- is getting so deep that someone needs too. That's not exactly what I meant, but it works I guess. The thing I don't see is a point: why is this being researched and funded? Unfortuntaely we need to know who is funding research as well as it's results.
One thing I've learned since I started school, give me enough time and pages and I can prove or disprove anything. I'm not going to google it, I'm familiar with the concept and it's a loose correlation at best. Now listen to this, because it's important: No One Can Know. When we latch on to research like this as a means of proving to ourself that we are or are not trans, we hurt ourselves and we hurt questioners who might not share the characterstic we are evaluating. Whatever it is that makes us the way we are will never be known because there aren't enough of us to study. If it has a medical basis, which I personally doubt, general observations of different characteristics of the male and female populations wouldn't apply anyway because we would, by all accounts, be mutants or deviations of nature's norm. Such characteristics are also influenced by hormones in the beef one eats, the proximity of your home/school to high voltage power lines, how close you are to the toxic levels of iodine released into the water table of the west during the 70s, you name it. Sorry but it just doesn't work.
So yeah, take whatever measures one feels necessary for validation, but let's not try and pass it off as science. Every time I see one of these threads I have to weigh in with my opinion that it's junk science, so that when someone who is questioning sees it and checks their arm ratios or measures their fingers and comes up in the normal male range they don't rule out transitioning and blow their heads off instead. What is this a freaking game of I'm-more-trans-than-you? That's great if you win but where does it leave the losers?
Quote from: Becca on January 22, 2010, 12:01:17 AM
Topics like this really get my panties in a knot, and I tried really hard not to weigh in but the bull->-bleeped-<- is getting so deep that someone needs too. That's not exactly what I meant, but it works I guess. The thing I don't see is a point: why is this being researched and funded? Unfortuntaely we need to know who is funding research as well as it's results.
One thing I've learned since I started school, give me enough time and pages and I can prove or disprove anything. I'm not going to google it, I'm familiar with the concept and it's a loose correlation at best. Now listen to this, because it's important: No One Can Know. When we latch on to research like this as a means of proving to ourself that we are or are not trans, we hurt ourselves and we hurt questioners who might not share the characterstic we are evaluating. Whatever it is that makes us the way we are will never be known because there aren't enough of us to study. If it has a medical basis, which I personally doubt, general observations of different characteristics of the male and female populations wouldn't apply anyway because we would, by all accounts, be mutants or deviations of nature's norm. Such characteristics are also influenced by hormones in the beef one eats, the proximity of your home/school to high voltage power lines, how close you are to the toxic levels of iodine released into the water table of the west during the 70s, you name it. Sorry but it just doesn't work.
So yeah, take whatever measures one feels necessary for validation, but let's not try and pass it off as science. Every time I see one of these threads I have to weigh in with my opinion that it's junk science, so that when someone who is questioning sees it and checks their arm ratios or measures their fingers and comes up in the normal male range they don't rule out transitioning and blow their heads off instead. What is this a freaking game of I'm-more-trans-than-you? That's great if you win but where does it leave the losers?
As far as I can see, this game is all in your head. So far the only people I've seen suggest that the index ratio thing is being seen by anyone as a rule and not a generality are the people trying to attack the nonexistent people they perceive as calling it a rule to begin with.
Nobody here is trying to prove or disprove, ironically the people most aggressive and antagonistic about this whole subject, is NOT the people bringing up the subject, but the people attacking the people bringing it up because they're perceiving it as an attack that it isn't.
I know it isn't an attack, it's entirely well meaning. The pursuit of understanding and knowledge is never a bad thing. Throw in some research on the hypothalamus and prenatal hormones exposre/lack thereof and it's fascinating scientific mental weight lifting. However until the subject is studied exclusively for gathering trans-data and like the rest of the skeptic patrol mentioned is double blind etc the research isn't valid for us and is dangerous. I don't know how to express how much it bothers me without coming off as defensive. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be a wet blanket about it.
The game is not in my head. People like us are always looking for validation, our group has a ridiculously high suicide rate, and stuff like this is like those fake vaginas in that other lol thread; interesting but not practical.
I did bookmark the first link, I'll find out monday if my university has a subscription to it.
Quote from: Becca on January 22, 2010, 12:27:14 AM
I know it isn't an attack, it's entirely well meaning. The pursuit of understanding and knowledge is never a bad thing. Throw in some research on the hypothalamus and prenatal hormones exposre/lack thereof and it's fascinating scientific mental weight lifting. However until the subject is studied exclusively for gathering trans-data and like the rest of the skeptic patrol mentioned is double blind etc the research isn't valid for us and is dangerous. I don't know how to express how much it bothers me without coming off as defensive. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be a wet blanket about it.
The game is not in my head. People like us are always looking for validation, our group has a ridiculously high suicide rate, and stuff like this is like those fake vaginas in that other lol thread; interesting but not practical.
Nobody said it was practical. Just interesting.
How exactly do you double blind a study involving TS's... how exactly are you going to NOT know you're in the control vs TS group? lol
It's not like this is testing to see if a drug works or not, it's seeing if the finger is longer or not. You're not going to get a great placebo effect on that. ::)
bottom line: it's just like chromosomes INCONCLUSIVE. It means nothing but hormone exposure in the womb which isn't connected to gender at all. It's just like MTFs generally have bigger hands, shoulders and feet.. doesn't change what you feel to be true in your mind.. it's just purely physical.
Quote from: Muffin on January 22, 2010, 12:54:33 AM
It means nothing but hormone exposure in the womb which isn't connected to gender at all.
You can't be serious...
Hormone exposure in the womb, is more connected to gender, sex, whatever you want to call it than ANY other factor of child birth by far.
It is pretty much the final word on how you turn out physically when you're born.
Quote from: Ashley4214 on January 22, 2010, 12:56:50 AM
You can't be serious...
Hormone exposure in the womb, is more connected to gender, sex, whatever you want to call it than ANY other factor of child birth by far.
It is pretty much the final word on how you turn out physically when you're born.
I refer to gender in the sense of who you feel you are, not on a biological level.
If you feel that digit ratio makes you less of a women/man whatever then there are problems and a cause for concern. and on the other hand (pun hugely intended) if you feel that digit ratio makes you more of a man/women whatever then there are equal causes for concern.
Hence me saying it means nothing it's purely physical which is why people start HRT and have ops to change the body they are in, unfortunately we can't change finger length but luckily it doesn't determine what gender/sex you REALLY are.
Oh ..IMO.
Quote from: Muffin on January 22, 2010, 01:54:52 AM
I refer to gender in the sense of who you feel you are, not on a biological level.
If you feel that digit ratio makes you less of a women/man whatever then there are problems and a cause for concern. and on the other hand (pun hugely intended) if you feel that digit ratio makes you more of a man/women whatever then there are equal causes for concern.
Hence me saying it means nothing it's purely physical which is why people start HRT and have ops to change the body they are in, unfortunately we can't change finger length but luckily it doesn't determine what gender/sex you REALLY are.
Oh ..IMO.
Who you are is a biological level. You can't completely separate your mind and sense of self from the physical system which drives it.
You're thinking of this too black and white. That it's either no relationship or an absolute relationship. What I think is that index ratio likely is an indicator that is not unrelated to various aspects of who you are, gender identity included. But that's all, it's an indicator, it doesn't say anything about you absolutely. But it's not entirely unrelated either.
Quote from: Ashley4214 on January 22, 2010, 12:33:25 AM
Nobody said it was practical. Just interesting.
How exactly do you double blind a study involving TS's... how exactly are you going to NOT know you're in the control vs TS group? lol
It's not like this is testing to see if a drug works or not, it's seeing if the finger is longer or not. You're not going to get a great placebo effect on that. ::)
No, but what you might get is a researcher with a preference for Asian features, a study done in an area that is mostly German white or irish white or black and so on. If one were to properly research something like this a good way to go about it would be to solicit the participation of the more prolific therapists to provide photocopies of their clients hands, code them and mix them in with photocopies of the general population and see if a trend emerges.
The you do it again. Then other people repeat it. Then you get to have a theory, not before. The problem is you'd need thousands of participants from all over to even make a claim of validity. I have to admit the study you linked with 68 looks better than some. If such a study were done, I don't think there would be an appreciable difference in ratio.
Yeah I probably should come clean, I'm not a doctor or anything of the sort >_<
Lol.
Quote from: Muffin on January 22, 2010, 01:54:52 AMunfortunately we can't change finger length
I guess technically you could but why would you want to? lol
I'd rather add a finger!! It might make me pick up the guitar again! :P
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on January 22, 2010, 07:08:43 AM
if you think this stuff is interesting, fine. nobody is faulting you for that...
So true.. this made me think how many threads there are that are basically analytical debates over reasons and causes etc.
Which seems to be more prominent in the MTF threads over the FTM threads.
I must admit I can get drawn into it so easily yet I'm starting to see just how pointless it all is.
Isn't the first rule of statistics pretty much that correlation is not causation.
Quote from: tekla on January 22, 2010, 10:41:11 AM
Isn't the first rule of statistics pretty much that correlation is not causation.
I don't think anybody ever implied anything except correlation.
A and B almost always implies one or more of the following: A=>B, B=>A, or C=>A and B. Casaully unrelated systems are virtually never correlated.
whats the name of the Hypothesis to do with swans? No matter how many white swans you see you cannot infer that all swans are white and there is no such thing as a black swan.
Quote from: lilacwoman on January 23, 2010, 05:03:07 AM
whats the name of the Hypothesis to do with swans? No matter how many white swans you see you cannot infer that all swans are white and there is no such thing as a black swan.
Good point... I want a black swan..
Hi there,
I think people will always look at someone who is slightly different and make assumptions about them. It comes from a basic lack of self confidence in one's self so if they can pick out something wrong in another person they feel better about themselves.
I have had people pass me who I have heard arguing over me as to whether I was male or female. One such occasion was a man arguing with his wife/partner because of my ankles of all things and the women saying no way that's a man, lol. I just smiled to myself. I had another time where another couple arguing because of my hair. O! well. Can't wait for the finger one now although not sure about that one as my ring fingers (3rd) is slightly longer on both hands, I apologise, I did look.
What really matters is how we deal with our own issue of gender dysphoria and come to a place where we are comfortable in our own skin and live a full and positive life and living to our full potential. I have spent to long dealing with this to worry about the above and I am just moving to a place in my life where I am free to expend the energy I had on GID into things that are positive and good.
Just my thoughts,
hugs
Stardust
i've never had anyone just come up to me and ask me if i'm a transsexual, and i've never went over and told someone about me unless they are a really good friend. hell, even my one good friend i had known for a long time was surprised when i brought up something ts related. "you're trans??" lol.
anyway... i've known people who are like "i'm going to refer to them as they ARE, not as how they are presented" which is a load of bull. i don't let myself get pissed over it because i know they are just being douchebags about it. plus if they did that to me people would think they are crazy, lol.
i think the more signs you have physically from your past, the more likely it will be that you will be spotted. but having a couple features i don't feel will break you, even an adam's apple. i have one and it doesn't hurt me... and even if it does one day why should i care. i'm educated, attractive, i'm doing things with my life... if someone catches me as mtf, good for them. maybe they'll feel better about themselves for a mere moment. but if i let every bastard with "manswers" get to me i wouldn't be where i am today.
manswers... what a crock.
Quote from: Maiden on January 23, 2010, 03:15:10 PM
anyway... i've known people who are like "i'm going to refer to them as they ARE, not as how they are presented" which is a load of bull. i don't let myself get pissed over it because i know they are just being douchebags about it. plus if they did that to me people would think they are crazy, lol.
People are jerks, but people are also astonishingly ignorant about all things gender. I can't really fault them for that.
Also, I would think a lot of people would have trouble seeing someone as a different gender than they've always seen, regardless of what they've been told. So I'm not sure how much I believe the "refer to them as they are" mantra.