I think some people don't understand the incredible vast divide between MTF and FTM people when it comes to transition. This leads to a lot of confusion when people from either camp try to apply their experiences to the other.
I think the main difference is our mindsets. Of course I'm not saying that this applies to everyone, we're all different and have our own issues with dysphoria and our own approach to transition. These are just my personal observations.
It seems that for many FTMs the gold at the end of the rainbow is T and top surgery. While for many MTFs the gold at the end of the rainbow is SRS (particularly genital surgery). This I think leads to the biggest hang up between both of us.
FTMs while I think for many of us you can't say we're happy with what we have, realize that no matter what surgery we get we will never have a 100% perfect penis. I think that many of us don't concentrate too much on the surgery then because ultimately we know it will be a let down. On the other hand from what I've seen a lot of MTFs spend a great amount of time concentrating on genital surgery.
Don't get me wrong FTMs do spend a great amount of time thinking about our junk and longing for a penis but we don't have that light at the end of the tunnel, the thing that means we will finally have it if we save up our nickels and get the surgery. Often we're trying to find some way to make what we have downstairs work. Or weighing our options to find out which route will give us some of the things we want and take away things we may not miss as much as others. It's a huge compromise.
Something that really capture the difference in mindset on this was when in chat we were all asked if you had to choose one, which would you get hormones or SRS. The bulk of the women chose SRS while the bulk of the guys chose hormones.
HRT is incredibly different on both sides. HRT gives a hell of a lot more physically to someone transitioning to male than for someone transitioning to female. Hormones can help guys grow something that can function and feel like a penis, they don't give a woman a vagina or take away what she has down there all ready. Hormones make our voices drop, they don't do a thing for a woman who has to learn how to feminize her voice. Hormones can give a guy facial hair, they don't take away a woman's beard.
The thing that contributes the most to a guy's transition is hormones, but that can't be said for women. This I think is the key in why we approach transition differently.
Personally, I relate MTF SRS more closely to FTM top surgery than bottom surgery. For many FTMs a huge amount of dyshporia is brought about by our boobs. They're the thing that's always there, that we have to try and hide, the thing that gives us away and is a constant reminder of our birth sex. I think MTF experiences with what they have downstairs is much more similar to that than to our experiences with what we have downstairs.
I'm not saying that MTF SRS is perfect and that there is no risk involved. Plus there are plenty of women who for whatever reason choose not to have it, just like there are plenty of men who choose to have SRS.
Honestly, I don't mean to generalize. Much of what I said up there may not apply at all for many. I know there are guys who forgo hormones, I know there are girls who get hormones and that's as far as their transition goes. We're all individuals and I'm not trying to put you in a box nor should you put yourself in one. But I see so many here butting heads because they don't realize that we're all different, and while we have some similar experiences you'll find many differences between us. We shouldn't judge one another for our differences or put each other into boxes.
Quote from: Osiris on January 27, 2010, 01:53:11 PM
It seems that for many FTMs the gold at the end of the rainbow is T and top surgery. While for many MTFs the gold at the end of the rainbow is SRS (particularly genital surgery).
I think the best link is boobs, the guys want to get rid of the lipid/fat/skin that makes up its shape, and in reverse girls want to add to.
getting rid of the moobs is a huge validation to guys from both not having to bind and to socially integrate. after that, it's red death that is the constant reminder of birth sex. (female reproductive anatomy) T helps but is no replacement for hysto.
The thing that contributes the most to a guy's transition is hormones, but that can't be said for women.FFS is sometimes the thing that separates a trans women from "passing" and being a sore thumb visually, genital surgery for trans women is great for when nakked, but comes with rape risk that trans guys don't really have (especially after bottom surgery)
It's a huge compromise.Quote from: Osiris on January 27, 2010, 01:53:11 PM
Something that really capture the difference in mindset on this was when in chat we were all asked if you had to choose one, which would you get hormones or SRS. The bulk of the women chose SRS while the bulk of the guys chose hormones.
my reason is for daily living reasons, a penis can perform sexually and urinate, a vagina does both as well as simply complete me, like getting rid of a permanently attached packie I never wanted in the first place.
again, that's my opinionQuote from: Osiris on January 27, 2010, 01:53:11 PM
We shouldn't judge one another for our differences or put each other into boxes. I know there are guys who forgo hormones, I know there are girls who get hormones and that's as far as their transition goes. We're all individuals and I'm not trying to put you in a box nor should you put yourself in one.
agreed
we do have things in common- for one, with hormones we are somewhat going through each other's puberties, our second is like your first in certain ways and vice versa. We want exactly the opposite things but the common factor is that it's all what we weren't born with. And of course we both have to to deal with a public who at best barely understands our existence. Of course there are differences, but I think we can also focus on the similarities and help each other in those ways.
You're very true Flan. MTFs do have to make a lot of compromises, and I apologize if my original post made it seem like I thought otherwise. I didn't really go into detail about MTF transition as much as FTM because I'm not traveling that road and like I said, while there are some similarities there are also vast differences.
I have definitely learned A LOT from the MTF women I know and I do think the reason we end up clashing over our differences is because we do see a lot of similarities. It's very easy to forget that there are things we don't see eye to eye on. That doesn't mean that anyone's wrong or right. We're all just different. I've seen on the boards and chat how some people make assumptions about others because they're doing something different in their transition, or not transitioning. The key is we're all individuals going down our own paths and we can learn a lot from both our similarities and our differences.
I've read your post twice now. I don't feel very easy with it and am trying to locate a middle ground.
I can only imagine, from what I've learnt in Susans, that most FtMs seek their male identity for a comparatively limited number of reasons.
Males play a dominate role in human society, their relationships with their peers, while very structured and hierarchal, is marked by camaraderie.
MtFs seem to seek a female role for a more varied number of reasons.
Many of us seek a more submissive, nurturing role. Some seems to seek a more fulfilling body shape. Some seem to want to be free from the disruptive effect of testosterone. Some seek a sister type relationship with women, even wives. Some seek to remove what is an uncomfortable and disruptive appendage.
I can immediately see an opportunity to apply some snappy labels onto this analysis but I'm going to resist it. Firstly, I hate labelling humans. It is demeaning to our dignity and locks us into compartments designed for one, not many. Secondly, I don't doubt, some may want to disagree with my assessment, exclude, modify or add to it. Thirdly, I don't want this to appear to be set in glass.
Many in the feminist movement of the 70s attacked men seeking surgical change of their sexual appearance citing the sister type relationship, they used the term, Castrating themselves to infiltrate the women's movement.
But I think I can see the the source of your frustration Osiris. The perceived inability to achieve a fulfilled male sex role as compared to an MtF.
That, sadly, is a mater of our respective biology. The male climax involves the brain, the endocrine system, the nervous system as well as the male genitals. This is one of the reasons I tried to gently scoff, in another thread, at reports of a surgically created penis.
But I really think we all need to understand that, what we are seeking to achieve, in reality, or ambition, is an alteration of our appearance to fit in with our aspirations.
I don't know if this is really very constructive for you, or even if I've missed your point altogether.
Assuming I was still in my teens and had the opportunities that are available now. I almost certainly would try very hard to get surgical alteration of my appearance. Especially removal of the ugly bits to prevent my body being deformed.
I can't say if that would have led to a happy life, that I would have found a suitable partner, I'm really picky. Would I have been safe, socially accepted, survived?
From your perspective, you seem to be conscious of the limited sexual response you can ever enjoy. The sudden climax followed by the release.
We are limited by the accident of our births.
Often many think that the guys have it easier with just getting a chest. But it is still major surgery, just as GRS is for us girls. Add in a hysto and it is just as much an attack on the body.
Hormones can do more for the guys than us girls as far as passing. Masculining the face, deepening of the voice, facial hair. All help. But we all still face the problems of GID. And no one can understand that better than another TS.
Do you guys have it easier? No there are things that you do that we girls can not ever understand. But vis a versa in the same respect.
Hysto = Orchie
Top surgery = Breast Augmentation
Phalloplasty = Vaginoplasty
You say tom-a-to, I say to-ma-to. Same thing.
Except you can develop those strong arms to hold on to us. :icon_love:
How far we each go is personal choice.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on January 27, 2010, 03:14:28 PM
How far we each go is personal choice.
Right on sistah. :D
And I definitely don't want to start a debate over who has it easier and stuff. Transition is a hell of a thing for ANYONE to go through no matter which way you're going. We all have our own personal battles.
Quote
Transition is a hell of a thing for ANYONE to go through no matter which way you're going. We all have our own personal battles.
You said it, Big guy. ;)
And then you always have to have the awkward one... ;D
who as my partner always says seems to have been born with a silver spoon in my mouth and an arch-angel for a guardian angel - either that or my guy has been doing a helluva lot of overtime to get me where I got... for example: Like F cup and no silcone, unbroken voice, only minor amounts of facial hair before I started, a family who accepted me openly from earliest childhood... etc
The only place I didn't luck out was in the hips - they widened a little but not nearly as much as they should have done to match the boobs. But then some of you guys have problems with the reverse so I certainly must not complain.
My partner says I cheated - I did Trans-Lite (ie without about 90% of the agro) while all she got was the legs and the hips! Mind you didn't she get the legs - It makes me shiver just thinking about em! >:-) :laugh:
Quote from: spacial on January 27, 2010, 03:03:47 PM
I can only imagine, from what I've learnt in Susans, that most FtMs seek their male identity for a comparatively limited number of reasons.
Males play a dominate role in human society, their relationships with their peers, while very structured and hierarchal, is marked by camaraderie.
MtFs seem to seek a female role for a more varied number of reasons.
Many of us seek a more submissive, nurturing role. Some seems to seek a more fulfilling body shape. Some seem to want to be free from the disruptive effect of testosterone. Some seek a sister type relationship with women, even wives. Some seek to remove what is an uncomfortable and disruptive appendage.
I disagree. I am going reverse, not for fewer reasons. I seek a more dominant role, masculine body shape (that's a big one, causes me most of my stress), want to be free of the cloudy-mind feeling that comes with estrogen. Seeking a brotherly relationship with other males, maybe be husband at some point. And get rid of the boobs. Would like to experience sex as a normal male, but that's most likely not going to happen.
Although I do not seek to deny differences, there are definitely differences, but not those.
Quote from: spacial on January 27, 2010, 03:03:47 PM
Secondly, I don't doubt, some may want to disagree with my assessment, exclude, modify or add to it
Respectfully... you betcha! ;)
I think the reasons for FTM transition are just as varied as MTF transition.
Everything you've said there could be applied to FTMs as well (with slight adjustments, of course).
Many of us seek a more assertive, logical role. Some seem to seek a more male body shape. Some seem to want to be free from the disruptive effect of estrogen. Some seek a brother type relationship with men, even husbands. Some seek to remove what are uncomfortable and disruptive appendages.
In my opinion, it often boils down to this - No matter the direction we travel it's a case of the right brain in the wrong body. Same-same. Anything more is down to the individual, and not the direction of transition.
Our paths are the same in so many ways, yet opposed in others. Similar enough to have some common ground, different enough to have no clue where the "other side" is coming from half the time :laugh:
V
Quote from: SilverFang on January 27, 2010, 04:28:15 PM
I disagree. I am going reverse, not for fewer reasons. I seek a more dominant role, masculine body shape (that's a big one, causes me most of my stress), want to be free of the cloudy-mind feeling that comes with estrogen. Seeking a brotherly relationship with other males, maybe be husband at some point. And get rid of the boobs. Would like to experience sex as a normal male, but that's most likely not going to happen.
Although I do not seek to deny differences, there are definitely differences, but not those.
I'm naturally pleased at your resolution, however, I'm a little confused about your claim to disagree.
Since you seek a male role, rather than that assigned by genetics,that would seem to confirm my point.
The only reason I was unable to list many reasons for genetic females seeking change is that, not being a genetic female and having little desire to be male, it isn't something in which I have a lot of first hand experience.
Moreover, My principal knowledge of FtMs is through Susans. I have attempted to do research on FtM in the past, but have been frustrated by the emphasis there seems to be on MtF.
I do apologise if you thought I was attempting to undermine you or limit the significane of your ambitions.
Post Merge: January 27, 2010, 10:57:54 AM
Quote from: Teknoir on January 27, 2010, 04:41:29 PM
Respectfully... you betcha! ;)
I think the reasons for FTM transition are just as varied as MTF transition.
Everything you've said there could be applied to FTMs as well (with slight adjustments, of course).
Many of us seek a more assertive, logical role. Some seem to seek a more male body shape. Some seem to want to be free from the disruptive effect of estrogen. Some seek a brother type relationship with men, even husbands. Some seek to remove what are uncomfortable and disruptive appendages.
In my opinion, it often boils down to this - No matter the direction we travel it's a case of the right brain in the wrong body. Same-same. Anything more is down to the individual, and not the direction of transition.
Our paths are the same in so many ways, yet opposed in others. Similar enough to have some common ground, different enough to have no clue where the "other side" is coming from half the time :laugh:
Thank you, in sincerity, for your clarifications.
As a seeker of knowledge, first and formost, I am more than pleased to have that and any more information.
Quote from: Osiris on January 27, 2010, 01:53:11 PM
FTMs while I think for many of us you can't say we're happy with what we have, realize that no matter what surgery we get we will never have a 100% perfect penis. I think that many of us don't concentrate too much on the surgery then because ultimately we know it will be a let down. On the other hand from what I've seen a lot of MTFs spend a great amount of time concentrating on genital surgery.
If they did perfect F2M genital surgery, do you think F2M's would focus more on it?
I've always wondered how important it is to you guys, apart from the concerns over surgery results?
Quote from: spacial on January 27, 2010, 04:53:04 PM
V
I'm naturally pleased at your resolution, however, I'm a little confused about your claim to disagree.
Since you seek a male role, rather than that assigned by genetics,that would seem to confirm my point.
Genetics hardly told me I was going to be feminine. I really think most of what behaviors I have that are feminine are due to being expected to act that way/being taught it's the right way and convenience due to physical femininity. There's really just certain qualities we attach to people who we only know the sex of and I'd rather be considered sort of "passively dominant." It feels like my place.
Point is: role is taught, and a bit of a welcome by-product of transition.
Post Merge: January 27, 2010, 06:03:16 PM
Quote from: Marie731 on January 27, 2010, 05:56:15 PM
If they did perfect F2M genital surgery, do you think F2M's would focus more on it?
I've always wondered how important it is to you guys, apart from the concerns over surgery results?
I certainly would, at first I figured I'd certainly end up with a phalloplasty at some point. But seeing the results and their tendency to not really feel anything (most of the reason I'd do it, you know?) I gave up on it.
Just another one of those depressing things you have to try to get over. Yeah, it's pretty important to a lot of us (some non-ops here and there that don't care of course) but there's no sense in crying over spilled milk, you know?
Quote from: SilverFang on January 27, 2010, 04:28:15 PM
I seek a more dominant role...
That part seems a little misguided. Dominant to what? Dominant to who?
Quote from: Ketsy on January 27, 2010, 06:10:00 PM
That part seems a little misguided. Dominant to what? Dominant to who?
I mean generally being perceived as more dominant by others. Alright, not a big deal but it's there and it seems like part of the "male package."
Quote from: SilverFang on January 27, 2010, 05:58:34 PM
Genetics hardly told me I was going to be feminine. I really think most of what behaviors I have that are feminine are due to being expected to act that way/being taught it's the right way and convenience due to physical femininity. There's really just certain qualities we attach to people who we only know the sex of and I'd rather be considered sort of "passively dominant." It feels like my place.
Point is: role is taught, and a bit of a welcome by-product of transition.
That may well be true. Equally, it may well be false.
This issue was discussed in another thread, (probably lots of others), and boils down to the nature verses nurture.
It's a circular issue and one which can only be resolved either by dogma or individualism. But, alas, yet another issue.
Of the list of your ambitions in #9:
QuoteI seek a more dominant role, masculine body shape (that's a big one, causes me most of my stress), want to be free of the cloudy-mind feeling that comes with estrogen. Seeking a brotherly relationship with other males, maybe be husband at some point. And get rid of the boobs. Would like to experience sex as a normal male, but that's most likely not going to happen.
I'm kinda please with myself that I managed to get 2 1/2 of them.
QuoteMales play a dominate role in human society, their relationships with their peers, while very structured and hierarchal, is marked by camaraderie.
I'm intertested in your experiences with estrogen. I hadn't realised it cause cloudy thinking in that way.
To what extend do you think that the erratic and iresponsible behaviour of many young girls, (not seeking transision), might be explained by estrogen?
And I really have to say that, if I were 35 years younger, single and had transisioned as I wanted to, I would be very interested in you. You are a very good looking young fellow. :)
Post Merge: January 27, 2010, 06:21:03 PM
Quote from: Ketsy on January 27, 2010, 06:10:00 PM
That part seems a little misguided. Dominant to what? Dominant to who?
It isn't a relative term. Males are dominant. Males seek their position within the male hierarchy in a position of dominance over other males.
Quote from: spacial on January 27, 2010, 06:18:40 PMI'm intertested in your experiences with estrogen. I hadn't realised it cause cloudy thinking in that way.
To what extend do you think that the erratic and iresponsible behaviour of many young girls, (not seeking transision), might be explained by estrogen?
And I really have to say that, if I were 35 years younger, single and had transisioned as I wanted to, I would be very interested in you. You are a very good looking young fellow. :)
That's rather difficult, as I can only really compare my current behavior on ovulation to what I was like pre-menarche. I'll give it a go though.
So lets see, mostly it's just harder to keep track of things than it used to be, I have a harder time keeping track of lists and strings of numbers (maybe this is where "girls are bad at math" came from) A lot less motivated, I just feel sluggish. Have a harder time focusing. Don't see the answers right in front of me. I just think more slowly and the answers seem to be hidden from me. Frustrating, I don't like that at all.
I'm sure guys have a similar hormonal thing that leads to it. Really, excess sex hormones probably just cause the irresponsibility. Too much sex drive/aggression and not enough reasoning to hold it in check. Just a bad combination all around.
Oh and lastly, thanks :icon_redface:
Soon after I started hormones, I read a post by an FTM who was saying how wonderful it was to be on T and blocking E. He perfectly described how I felt blocking T and getting E, and I realized that we (FTMs and MTFs) have a LOT in common.
I think more MTFs look to SRS because the surgical techniques are more developed than for FTMs.
I wonder, though, if it has to do with our genetic background. Male sexuality tends to be penis-oriented while female sexuality is more diffuse. As a genetic male woman, I might think more about rearranging "the important stuff", or at least until the E really kicked in and I found my sexuality becoming more diffuse. Likewise a genetic female man might still see his sexuality as more diffuse at first and therefore not concentrate as readily on his "parts".
I think I totally get the need for a guy to get his moobs removed. I am looking forward to having my non-conforming external parts removed, too. That I get a usable vagina in the process is like a bonus. (Sorry guys. :()
I have always been struck by how much we MTFs and FTMs have in common. Sometimes as we try to escape how our bodies caused society to categorize us, we forget that commonality.
(Remember the "Why would anyone want to be a woman when they could be a man" thread where we had fun with this?)
- Kate
Those are great points Kate. 8)
I'm enjoying reading everyone's views on this you all have brought up some good stuff to think about.
It is a good read and some things to think about.....The differences and commonalities we share as TG people
Like driving on a highway.....I'm going in one direction, someone is going in another
We are both on a journey with a destination in mind
If I can lend a hand to another who may need it I will....It doesn't matter what direction they are going
Much Love - Virginia :icon_chick:
Quote from: Marie731 on January 27, 2010, 05:56:15 PM
If they did perfect F2M genital surgery, do you think F2M's would focus more on it?
I've always wondered how important it is to you guys, apart from the concerns over surgery results?
I can only speak for myself here, but I would jump at it. It would be in my plans for certain. I see it as an important piece of anatomy, from a physical dysphoria reducing perspective. Also, I just want one :laugh:
That said, more visable and financially attainable things such as HRT and chest reconstruction would take a higher priority. They would have a greater impact on my day to day life and rectify the most physical dysphoria for the least amount of risk and cost.
Quote from: spacial on January 27, 2010, 06:18:40 PM
I'm intertested in your experiences with estrogen. I hadn't realised it cause cloudy thinking in that way.
To what extend do you think that the erratic and iresponsible behaviour of many young girls, (not seeking transision), might be explained by estrogen?
I'll take a stab at it :).
I suspect I don't do much in the way of estrogen normally. I'm not IS... but something is broken somewhere in the hormonal feedback loop.
The tiny amount of E and T blockers in "the pill" was enough that I went INSANE. Literally. Even after I resorted to taking large amounts of "crazy meds" and seeing a therapist, I could not function well enough to hold down a job or study.
"Clouded mind" was an understatement. I felt like I had been given a lobotomy.
My emotions were also completely out of whack. Not only were they much, much stronger - they were also random and completely uncontrollable.
The worst? The depression. An overriding urge that everything was hopeless, and I needed to commit suicide.
As soon as I went off it everything went back to normal. I stopped all other meds without noticing a thing. Also, I got my body hair back :laugh:
From my experiance, I could easily see how estrogen would cause emotional instability (in turn causing irrational behaviour).
I think in teenagers though, it's more the effect of multiple hormones going crazy when the brain isn't used to it and the whole "nearing independance", "finding their identity", and "peer conformity" factors that make them go nuts.
I think actual women will level out and chill after a while, but those who are not designed to run on E will never feel right.
These are interesting perspectives about running on estrogen. I found that I am more alert and less clouded. Also, I seem to be able to remember numbers better than I did. (I was always good at manipulating them - I just had a poor memory for them.) But I think these effects are from finally running on the right fuel, not from the estrogen per se.
Effects that I do attribute to estrogen are that I can concentrate on several different things at once and my thinking and conversations are less linear than before. Also my sexual feelings are far more diffuse than before.
When testosterone hit me at puberty I became confused and struggled for years to clear my thinking. Your tales of what happened when estrogen hit you sound very similar. Fortunately, I never took pills to increase my testosterone level. I think I would have gone crazy. It was difficult enough to keep myself together with my natural levels.
From puberty on, I would always yearn for balance – to just achieve some sort of balance. I could achieve it sporadically, but until I began HRT and transition I always knew it was just temporary.
- Kate
Quote from: SilverFang on January 27, 2010, 06:30:34 PM
That's rather difficult, as I can only really compare my current behavior on ovulation to what I was like pre-menarche. I'll give it a go though.
So lets see, mostly it's just harder to keep track of things than it used to be, I have a harder time keeping track of lists and strings of numbers (maybe this is where "girls are bad at math" came from) A lot less motivated, I just feel sluggish. Have a harder time focusing. Don't see the answers right in front of me. I just think more slowly and the answers seem to be hidden from me. Frustrating, I don't like that at all.
I'm sure guys have a similar hormonal thing that leads to it. Really, excess sex hormones probably just cause the irresponsibility. Too much sex drive/aggression and not enough reasoning to hold it in check. Just a bad combination all around.
Oh and lastly, thanks :icon_redface:
I think I understand now. It's something which happens at regular intervals for a period of time and disrupts your intellectual capaciy?
That would be especially frustrating for someone who doesn't feel their body is right in the first place.
Do you think non-TG women enjoy this regular experience?
Does it create any sort of mood change, euphoria, or is it simply a matter of concentration?
We've all heard of cycles for men. I haven't seen any evidence and it certainly isn't my own experience. Though there is, what I always called, The Surge, when something seemed to stilulate, usually a sight, but perhaps some sound or smell. It does disrupt your concentration and can make you feel agressive.
Then again, that was my experience and to be honest, I had a mood problem for most of my adult life, until I reached 40. So perhaps it was that.
Quote from: Marie731 on January 27, 2010, 05:56:15 PM
If they did perfect F2M genital surgery, do you think F2M's would focus more on it?
I've always wondered how important it is to you guys, apart from the concerns over surgery results?
Yes!
Though top surgery would still be something I'd want to do "first". Mostly cause the damned things are such a loud part of my appearance at the moment.
Mindsets. The fact that one's end goal is being male, and the other female, indicates a whole lot of goals that are oppositional. I suppose that while you can spend ages dissecting the differences between the two, in the end it's something beautiful. You've got a guy who's never really been in a guy role, and a chick who's never been in a chick role, but the guy's been in the chick role and the chick has been in the guy role so in the end, they've got an immense amount in common:D
Teknoir and K8
Thank you so much for your responses. I didn't mean to ignore you in #23. I've been trying to digest the information on estrogen on genetic females.
It's interesting that you each have had such different experiences. Though, of course, you both have such different backgrounds and lifestyles.
Teknoir, I read in a much earlier post by you that you don't want children. Would you dscribe yourself as emotional at all?
You seem to come across as matter of fact in many of your posts. But did briefly describe a firery relationship.
K8. You posts seem to portray someone who thinks a lot about other people. Would you say you are emotional?
I ask this because I'm wondering if your very different reactions to estrogen were because of your predispositions.
I apologise if I'm being intrusive.
Spacial,
I am MTF and Teknoir is FTM, so I would expect our take on estrogen to be very different. It was what I needed, while he probably felt the way I did when testosterone hit me – cursed.
I was raised in a family that showed little emotion. We loved each other and were warm to each other, but I don't think I ever saw my parents embrace, let alone kiss. Trying to be a man, I was wrapped very tightly because it was such an effort. I married a wonderful, emotional Italian woman who found my evident lack of emotion problematic. I had it; I just couldn't get in touch with it.
When the cage door swung open and I was finally operating on the right fuel, I was at last able to feel and to express those feelings. It is as if the wrappings came off.
My friends say I am the same as I was but they can see I am far happier. I was raised to appreciate at a distance, but now I am a toucher and a hugger and I cry sometimes and laugh frequently. I absolutely love who I have become. :)
Some of this is from estrogen and some of it is from finally being free to be myself. I can't separate the two.
*hugs*
Kate
Thank you K8.
I apologise to Tekbnoir, profusely. I read some of his posts from his profile. I was really just trying to get some idea of his outlook. If I had spent more time I would have realised, but with over 400 posts, I concentrated on what caught my eye.
Once again, I am truely sorry.
The descriptions Tekbnoir wrote about his experiences on what he called: E and T blockers in "the pill" appear to have been quite painful. Some of the past posts I read also seem to recall other painfull events.
K8.
Thank you for your response. I understand and fully agree with your position of not separating the two. Self annalysis seems a bit like taking apart that nice toy you got, only to realise you can't put it back together.
I think I have a pretty good introduction to estrogen in relation to FtM and MtF now. Hopefully, with time, this issue will be raised again.
Once again K8, thank you for taking the time to respond and my deepest apologies to Tekbnoir
I passed an okay amount pre-HRT, without wearing any makeup, with frumpy hair, and androgynous clothes. And a shapeless body, but I'm short.
Now living as a woman everywhere except at work (including school this semester), and having actually tried out makeup... i hate my face without it and want to learn to use it. I feel hideous when I see myself in the mirror and wonder how I could ever pass. Hell, pass a year ago, without hormones or breasts. Some days I see myself and can picture the girl peeking through with her nice round cheeks but most of the time, I don't even see the gorgeous boy who used to be there. Just a disgusting man.
Which is pretty screwed up, I know, considering how when at work, I pass with *everything* against me...
When the face isn't bothering me, I'd like a female shape. But that is mostly my scoliosis screwing with me since it deprives me of having hips, being able to do the lower back bend to show off ass, etc. To me, shape and face are the big things everyone sees.
On a personal level, I'd like to grow more adult female nipples, rather than the nearly pre-hrt size i have right now.
SRS doesn't even really factor in for me right now because I can't see myself ever affording it before I'm 30 or older :( and that's a long way away.
Orchi and hysterectomy are NOT nearly the same thing. A friend of mine had her orchi, 4 months into HRT, paid for in cash, and had sex with her boyfriend the same night. Not nearly the same thing.
Autumn,
I am not sure if you comment on an Orchie v. Hysto was directed at me or not, but I did not say they were the same thing. I was using that as the guys can have a hysto and us girls can have an Orchie. As all of the operation in my post, each group has something that the other has similarly.
Remember I had an Orchie and I was fine by the next day. I doubt that any of our brother who have had a hysto could say the same thing, but then again I have not ever know anyone who has had one personally.
Hugs,
Janet
It was, but I apologize, I came from another perspective - since the earlier tone in the thread was comparing what each of us find to be more important, not the direct analogies... since those are pretty obvious >:-)
I'd definitely compare BA to FFS. Although, not every MTF is going to have FFS, and almost every FTM will have BA if they can afford it, considering which single procedure can be the most important, I'd link those two.
Sorry I'm late... I decided to sleep for the first time in 3 days :laugh:.
Quote from: spacial on January 28, 2010, 10:55:33 AM
Teknoir, I read in a much earlier post by you that you don't want children. Would you dscribe yourself as emotional at all?
You seem to come across as matter of fact in many of your posts. But did briefly describe a firery relationship.
Matter of fact? Wow... from my point of view, these forums are one of the places I let my guard down and be silly! Interesting!
I consider myself (as I am now) "average", but the people around me say I'm cold and unemotional. I have no idea how people keep getting that impression - any time I spend around people is almost always spent joking around and having fun.
My family are, by my standards, very touchy-feely. They're always hugging and feeling things. I don't repress emotions, I just don't feel the same things they do. If I feel something, it's never to the same extent.
I don't like physical contact (a pet hate of mine are people that grab your arm or shoulder in a conversation), and I don't cry at things (like driving away from a family gathering, or murdered children on the news). My family think I'm broken :laugh:
Ah, yes.... that. It wasn't really firery as such - there was never any screaming or shouting. I'd more have called it watery, like "drip drip drip on your forehead and a set of restraints" :laugh:.
Actaully, I just got off the phone with them. Each conversation is like a half hour mind game (and I am not the only person to have said it).
Even though I can see EXACTLY what they are doing and how they are doing it, theres just something in their phrasing and inflections that just gets my back up every time. So I suppose that's the exception to my unemotional status.
Quote
I apologise to Tekbnoir, profusely. I read some of his posts from his profile. I was really just trying to get some idea of his outlook. If I had spent more time I would have realised, but with over 400 posts, I concentrated on what caught my eye.
Once again, I am truely sorry.
The descriptions Tekbnoir wrote about his experiences on what he called: E and T blockers in "the pill" appear to have been quite painful. Some of the past posts I read also seem to recall other painfull events.
Oh... I though you were already aware I am FTM. You were asking another FTM a few posts back about their experiances with Estrogen - that's why I weighed in (though my experiance is mostly synthetic). It's all good :).
Most FTMs don't talk about having tried female hormones, and they usually don't violently react to them if they did. Probably 'cause most FTMs fall within normal XX hormonal parameters before HRT.
From what I've read, "hormonally normal XX" FTMs get a milder version of what I went though in the same situation.
I have no idea what T is going to do to my emotional state, but I don't expect the degree of change other guys have gotten.
Thank you for being so understanding Teknoir.
It's good that you can let your guard down. I agree with you, this is a place to do just that.
My curiosity about how emotional you see yourself was based upon my mistaken assumptiion that you were born male.
Now that I realise you are FtM, your posts are clearer.
Inevitable we look at th world through our own eyes. I'm a total wimp. I cry at the Simpsons!!!!
Once, a number of years ago, I was with a group of men and cried at something. One called me a Girl's Blowse. I replied, I wish. This was taken as being really funny, but they laughed for different reasons for me!!
In an earlier post, in this thread, described how estrogen had affected him, especially during ovulation. I was curious to know how estrogen affected MtF people.
K8 kindly described how she felt. I was looking for another perspective from another MtF person. As I was under the mistaken assumption that you were MtF, and you semed to have such a different outlook on life, I wanted to get your input.
I now realise that you are FtM.
If it isn't too intrusive, can you describe how estrogen makes you feel?
Quote from: spacial on January 29, 2010, 07:00:01 AM
If it isn't too intrusive, can you describe how estrogen makes you feel?
That horrible backstory is what introducting estrogen to my system made me feel like.
Due to a nice little hormonal glitch, I don't have much in the way of estrogen naturally - so I got to see a very marked difference when it was introduced.
And I also got to stop it, and have all the mental stuff change back (which was nice as a confirmation that I am neither insane, nor doomed!).
Quote from: Teknoir on January 29, 2010, 05:28:25 AM
Matter of fact? Wow... from my point of view, these forums are one of the places I let my guard down and be silly! Interesting!
Don't you love it? I would think I was really swinging out and having a good time and then someone would tell me I'm always so serious. :D Oh well.
I know what you mean about family, even though mine is very different. I just saw my brother for the first time since starting transition. The meeting was very cordial – warm but with little depth. I wanted more than cordial but will settle for it. I get the impression he thinks me becoming a full-time woman is on par with me getting a tattoo or joining the military - just another inexplicable decision.
Often, family can be tough because you want more connection than the others are able to offer you. (I mean, they're your
family, durn it! >:()
Hang in there, guy. :)
- Kate
Teknoir
Thank you. I understand now.
In my experience in the "Gender Community", the vast majority of M/F's I have met will never have momey for SRS or FFS and try to cope without it. They are lucky if they even have any health insurance for non-gender related medical needs. Without generalizing too much, it would be great if HRT worked as quickly on M/F's as F/M's. Also, I can probably count on one hand the number of M/F's I have met who really have achieved a authentic sounding female voice. I don't know anybody that speaks like Andrea James or Calpurnia Adams. The sad thing in so many cases is that this is a class issue as well as a gender issue. Not all of us can see Russia from our house.
Becoming a socially adept woman when starting in middle-age or later can be so hard it's a wonder more people don't give up and be week-end CD's. You have voice, skin, hair, posture, behavior and walk issues as well as unlearning a life time of passing for male and all the irritating secondary body characteristics that can only be fixed by expensive surgery. In a typical support group in my area, I'd say 70% will always stay CD because it's just too hard and expensive to move on. The heartbreak is massive.
Quote from: xsocialworker on January 29, 2010, 11:43:09 AM
It would be great if HRT worked as quickly on M/F's as F/M's. Also, I can probably count on one hand the number of M/F's I have met who really have achieved a authentic sounding female voice. I don't know anybody that speaks like Andrea James or Calpurnia Adams. The sad thing in so many cases is that this is a class issue as well as a gender issue.
I have the voice but not the right fat distribution. My voice didn't break so it's a plus for me but your right about the limitations of HRT on Male to females.
Money, as mentioned is a huge factor, because so much more is available - SRS, FFS that puts the onus on people to go all the way in order to be authentic.
Physically, the HRT does give the guys facial hair, and that alone will get them to 'pass' a lot of the times, plus there are more short guys then there are tall women, so that makes the girls stand out more.
Socially, I think that's the place were it's reversed. I think women are much more accepting in taking in the girls, then men are in taking in the guys. And it's not that the men are less tolerant - perhaps they are - it's more that there is a code of behavior that is pretty hard to work your way around. Just showing up in guy mode does not make you 'one of the guys' by default. That group deal, and that order has been carefully worked on since grade school for the most part and it's pretty solid.
I heard that when an FTM and MTF hug, they annihilate- leaving just a faint beam of light where they once stood.
For being EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of me I sure feel like I have a lot in common with you all :). We should all just swap brains imo.
Quote from: Osiris on January 27, 2010, 01:53:11 PM
The thing that contributes the most to a guy's transition is hormones, but that can't be said for women. This I think is the key in why we approach transition differently.
That somewhat depends on age of beginning hormones. MTF teens depend just as much on HRT as FTM teens, though the gap starts to open up pretty soon after puberty. And that brings up a difference - age's significance at transition. While naturally everyone would prefer to live as their actual gender as soon in life as possible, young MTFs have a bit more urgency upon making this choice. I began at 20.. and my facial hair started growing at 17.. so essentially just a 3 year difference cost me thousands of dollars in electrolysis (pretty much every spare penny I earned during college).
My breasts grew at age 11. same size 47 years later. starting early would have been nice but not possible. Not starting then will cost me plenty in binders and surgery as well as medical upkeep until then.