All the ambiguity was stripped away today. Now what? The simple choice is... Be a woman, or stay with my wife and children. I can't have both. But I also can't stand where I am at right now, treading water in the male role every day.
This is the bad time.
This is a horrible choice that all too many trans people are faced with. You need to figure out if you can actually live as a pseudo-man and adequately fulfill your role as father and husband or if the stress will be so much that you end up sick or worse. Having your children be apart from you is not as bad as having them be orphans, or damaged people because you can't be a decent father for them due to the stress of not transitioning. It's an exercise of choosing the lesser of two evils, I'm afraid.
I was at the point where I didn't want to live anymore if it meant living as a man. I figured at the time that I had to transition since my suicide would affect my wife, family and friends a lot worse than my transition would have. It turned out better than I expected, in the long run, although the pain and suffering in between was hard to bear. You'll need to make that choice - treat your condition or try to suppress it. It won't go away, believe me, I tried. Good luck.
hugs & smiles
Emelye
mtfbuckeye... You're in a very tough situation. My heart really goes out to you. I hope that you can work everything out. I know it's rough now, but you'll get through it. We're here to support you regardless of your decision.
:icon_chick:
*hugs*
To me the weird thing is my wife still wants me to go see a GID therapist, and still wants to do marriage counseling... I think she hopes I'll figure out that I'm not "really" trans... sigh.
I don't want to split up anyway, but the brutal truth is that I'm not at all ready to be kicked out onto the street, which is what would happen if I threw down the gauntlet now. I have only a part-time job, and I live with her and her parents at the moment. On top of that, I don't want my kids to be without me right now either.
A wise friend reminded me about the "hierarchy of needs" the other day. It would seem the prudent move is to keep a roof over my head, find a full time job, and keep going to therapy... What do y'all think?
Now is not the time to throw down the gauntlet. Stay in gender therapy. But if you go to a marriage counselor, be prepared to out yourself. But will they even know what GID, or now called GI really is?
I lost two families with children, because I tried to "man up". Until you are ready to lose all, do what you can to stay put.
Best of luck to you and your family.
Hugs,
Janet
Thank you... I need it. I've got a HUGE job interview this Friday and this isn't helping my state of mind. :(
I'm sorry that you had to hear those words-I've been there & not too long ago. I had to decide which was more important-what I need or what my family needs. I have a compromise with my wife-I go to therapy and get back on meds (ie. stay mentally stable) & in return I don't present as female around her or our family. The atmosphere is much better than before to say the least and if I acheive at least part of what I need this is progress. Good luck with your job interview & I pray you and your family can find a way to have peace.
Randi
Randi...
Meds as in, like, zoloft... or HRT? If it is HRT, won't you reach a point where you have trouble passing for male? Just asking because I'm searching for solutions to my own problems...
It's too bad, Buckeye. We can't make the decision for you, but it sounds like you can stay together for a while anyway. You can try marriage counseling if it means she will go with you or will undergo it too. This is a problem between the two of you and is not yours alone.
Good luck on your interview. Try to put your worries out of your mind and concentrate on that. Do what you can to work toward what you want.
*hugs*
Kate
I'll try, Kate.. I'm very bad at compartmentalizing. :(
A wise friend reminded me about the "hierarchy of needs" the other day. It would seem the prudent move is to keep a roof over my head, find a full time job, and keep going to therapy... What do y'all think?
I think that's good advice. I know it's hard, and I'm so sorry to hear about your problems. *hugs*
Buckeye, sometimes you have to place survival first. What do I think? Focus on your job interview. Talk to your therapist about your family situation. Do not make any sudden decisions.
I'm worried about your relationship with your kids, though. If it were "just" work and marriage, that would be bad enough. But kids change everything. How old are they? Do they know about you?
Quote from: mtfbuckeye on February 23, 2010, 01:22:55 PM
All the ambiguity was stripped away today. Now what? The simple choice is... Be a woman, or stay with my wife and children. I can't have both. But I also can't stand where I am at right now, treading water in the male role every day.
This is the bad time.
You and I have talked privately in the past. Wiithout disclosing the facts we discussed, let me ask you, has it come this far for you that you would risk your family? I ask this to mtfbuckeye only based on situations she expressed to me, and by no means ask such of others who might be reading.
We had talked where this all might lead and I worried it might go this way, but then again it has been several months since we last chatted. I really hope you strongly consider your motivations behind your decision because I know you really love your family.
Well one point you have going for you is that she hasn't kicked you to the curb already. Lots of women, particularly when they have children to raise, hit a point where if you are not going to be able to provide for them, then they are damn sure going to find someone who will. And that is not romantic, it's mercenary - but there are a lot of parts of life that mercenaries win all the time and romantics always lose at. Kids make that kind of choice an overwhelming necessity.
Look, do you love her? Really? If you do, and if you know damn well that this is not going to work out in the long run, by what right do you have to hold her to it (thus not letting her move on, find the love she needs, wants and desires) until you feel OK with walking out that door to live your life? Is she to suffer through all the stuff till you get all your ducks in a row, and then 'hasta la vista Baby'? That sounds even more mercenary to my ears.
Let me say this, and I know everyone is going to hate it, but true is true. No one forced you to have kids. No one stood there with a gun to your head and said "impregnate this woman." And, so long as you did it without duress - no matter how wrong the reason was at the time - you have an absolute moral obligation to support those kids.* EVEN IF IT MEANS YOU DON'T TRANSITION. Sure, its all fine to say "it's my life" but it's not anymore. You have moral obligations that you are NOT free to pass off to the next sucker while you go out and 'discover' yourself. (And hey, you have a Master's Degree, you must have thought some parts of this through already.)
Yeah, I know, you're going to pay for the rest of your life for something that only took a few minutes. While I'm not crying for you, I will give you a couple of names of people I know who are doing what amounts to life without parole for a couple of bad minutes in their life too. At least you can still go out to the store.
You owe it to her, and to your kids, to make a damn decision, and if you don't stick with it, at least don't stick them with it either.
* - Because if they show up on some welefare line that I have to pay for I'm going to go all Dickens on them and ask:
'Are there no prisons?"
'Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
'And the Union workhouses.' demanded Scrooge. 'Are they still in operation?'
'Both very busy, sir.'
'Oh. I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,' said Scrooge. 'I'm very glad to hear it.'
...I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned-they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.'
'Many can't go there; and many would rather die.'
'If they would rather die,' said Scrooge, 'they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."
---from A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens
YOUR KIDS, Your responsibility, even at the cost of what makes you happy. Even at the cost of 'being who you should be.' At any cost.
im sorry to sound harsh but i agree, children come first you needs a distant 2nd, 3rd ,10th or whatever.
there maybe a time in the future you can move on but right now you have a family that needs supporting. i would personally keep seeing the therapist they will help you with ways to deal with this.
I know it isnt easy to deal with i only lost my relationship of the time, had my own home and never had or wanted children but then i always knew my day would come too so never wanted to put that onto anyone and transition often means playing with other peoples lives too
there is always light at the end of you tunnel i know it is hard but that light will come too i know that only too well
A few things:
A) We chose to have children. I do not regret that choice.
B) I love my children more than anything. I would die for them (in fact, I kind of feel like I'm doing that as we speak in some ways). I can't stand the thought of being apart from them.
C) If my wife chose to leave me, I would certainly still support them in every way possible (financially, emotionally, etc).
D) Frankly, I'm already making a big sacrifice for them... I would probably have already transitioned if it wasn't for my desire to be a full-time parent to them.
All that said, I'm getting ever closer to my breaking point. I'd never abandon my children, but at some point they'd be better off with a happy, well-adjusted, part-time parent, rather than a miserable bastard, no?
Three things come to mind.
First - I feel for you. It's a horrible dilemma to be in and I, for one, will not presume to give you advice.
Second - I'm so glad I never had children in my original gender.
Third - and most importantly this is, I think, one of those rare moments when a (just slightly altered) quote from the bible seems strangely apt: "Greater love than this no man hath, than that he lay down his life for his children!"
I admire your spirit of self sacrifice. The mere fact that you are even debating this speaks volumes for you. I'm not sure that I could ever have contemplated being that noble.
I hope you figure out a way forward that you can live with. I agree with the others though that dropping out of therapy won't solve anything, and ultimately only you can discover how far you can succeed in developing the sort of coping mechanisms that the likes of Interalia seem to have managed.
I was married as my birth gender. I had children. I am divorced. In my case I my divorce was not related to my GID but other factors, and I can only thank my lucky stars that I was already divorced before I transitioned.
TBH if I were in your shoes I don't know what I'd do. Very tough. But I do agree that kids need both parents, and they need both parents to be functional in an ideal world.
Your wife will leave you if you transition. She will stay if you do not. Ouch. But understandable; she married a man, wants a man, thought you were a man.
You need to transition. Also very understandable (as one who transitioned as quickly as possible, I get that, totally!).
But, you have time.
I suppose what I would advise, fwiw, is to talk with your wife, go to counseling, etc, WITH HER. Know that divorce will be imminent, but nobody has to make any rash decisions or kick anyone to the curb. You can put the kids first, make decisions that will be the best for the kids as you proceed with transition. In an ideal world, your wife will support your need to transition, speak of you positively with your kids, will share custody when it gets to that point, will be amicable, etc. Kids will adapt, but keep the negativitiy and fighting and need to be right and place blame out of it if at all possible.
This isn't anyone's fault. Yes, choosing to transition is a choice, but as most of us know, we get to that transition or die stage. Your kids lose big time if you die for real..
Proceed slowly..
Jay
Quote from: mtfbuckeye on February 24, 2010, 09:33:31 AM
A few things:
A) We chose to have children. I do not regret that choice.
B) I love my children more than anything. I would die for them (in fact, I kind of feel like I'm doing that as we speak in some ways). I can't stand the thought of being apart from them.
C) If my wife chose to leave me, I would certainly still support them in every way possible (financially, emotionally, etc).
D) Frankly, I'm already making a big sacrifice for them... I would probably have already transitioned if it wasn't for my desire to be a full-time parent to them.
All that said, I'm getting ever closer to my breaking point. I'd never abandon my children, but at some point they'd be better off with a happy, well-adjusted, part-time parent, rather than a miserable bastard, no?
A) It's a wonderful thing to have children! There should be no regrets. Enjoy them, treasure them, love them!
B) You will never stop being their father, no matter what your gender is. You cannot become their mother. My kids love me for who I am, and not for the gender I have. If your children experience your gender change as a natural part of life, they will accept it. If they are young enough, they may never remember you as ever having been anyone else.
C) Your commitment to continue to provide for their well being is a loving and caring thing.
D) You did not choose to be trans. But you can choose when and how to come out. Review your options and make your plans. You've mentioned that you are currently hoping for a full time position. Great! Plan for your transition based on when you can support yourself and your family both when you are together and after you have separated.
Transition is the hardest thing you can do in this life. It is hard on marriages and many, if not most, dissolve. That is the sad truth. But all marriages will be changed on a fundamental level. If you are taking the stance that you must do this to save your life, then these are the choices you must make. Perhaps through counseling, your wife can eventually come to understand that this is something that must be done. Transition affects all around you as well as yourself. But, unlike you, those others in your life have not had a lifetime to come to terms with it. They may feel blindsided by your decision. Hopefully, in time, they will come to understand.
-Sandy
I don't have any children but I do understand what you must be going through because of this. All we can ever do is what seems right to us when we do it, and no one can be blamed for that.
What you said:
Quote from: mtfbuckeye on February 24, 2010, 09:33:31 AMAll that said, I'm getting ever closer to my breaking point. I'd never abandon my children, but at some point they'd be better off with a happy, well-adjusted, part-time parent, rather than a miserable bastard, no?
is wise and I agree with that. You obviously care a lot for your children. I think there comes a point where we can't be a good parent (or spouse or child) if we are so miserable ourselves, and if it drives us to that breaking point then that doesn't seem to be helping anyone, really. Maybe helping yourself to be settled is a way of helping them too? I hope you can work things out because in any case all of you deserve to be happy. *hugs*
Most everyone has given good advice to you. My advice is for your wife - those who make ultimatums should always be prepared for the recipient to take the "or else" option.
WR
I would focus on getting your own ducks in a row. Right now she has most of the power in your relationship, and that is skewing the situation a little bit. Put yourself in a position where you CAN make a decision for yourself, and then do.
Right now you say you have a decision, but the way you describe it(No full-time job, living at her parents, kids) it doesn't sound like you have much of a decision at all.
Go to therapy so you can keep sane, but start working on putting yourself in a better position. Start saving money. Become able to survive on your own if she leaves you. Survival is the most important thing. Once you have that stuff done, then I would say transition. You live life once, and if she can't support and love you, then she never really loved you in the first place IMO. she cares too much about how you look, and not enough about who you are IMO.
If people like us, want what they want - then I think that notion ought to be extended to the rest of the world also. So the wants, needs and desires of Buckeye are no more or less valid then those of the wife in this or any other situation, and kids sure change it. I was very happy and content to work for very little money doing stuff I liked, living on Raman noodles and peanut butter and spending my afternoons in Golden Gate Park right up until I had kids. At that point I needed an extra couple of hundred thousand dollars. And that reality sure changed everything. Well except the afternoons in Golden Gate Park, but I did have to switch from hanging out at Hippie Hill and playing Frisbee to the kiddie playground.
But in any relationship there are two people, and often in the discussions 'round these parts we hear only one side of the story and strongly support only one side. But the reality is this: the wife is the one who is going to be stuck being a single parent, the burden of supporting the kids is going to land completely on her, and I'm sure this is not what she wanted or envisioned her life as being.
Everyone says in that pre-divorce deal that they are going to be a major part of their children's lives, but the reality is often much different.
I don't have much to offer, perhaps just a few things to think about...
Once a relationship has reached the point of ultimatums and threats of divorce, how likely is it to truly survive and become whole again? Many couples have made it back from the D word, but I think it will take a lot of work, compromise and understanding on both your parts to make your marriage into something stable once again. Are you prepared to do that? Do you trust she will do that?
And Tekla's correct. You already face an uphill battle being a part of your children's lives as a boy. Sorry, but it's true. The laws are skewed in your wife's favor. Adding an alternative lifestyle to the equation certainly isn't going to help.
QuoteBut the reality is this: the wife is the one who is going to be stuck being a single parent, the burden of supporting the kids is going to land completely on her, and I'm sure this is not what she wanted or envisioned her life as being.
Everyone says in that pre-divorce deal that they are going to be a major part of their children's lives, but the reality is often much different.
QuoteAnd Tekla's correct. You already face an uphill battle being a part of your children's lives as a boy. Sorry, but it's true. The laws are skewed in your wife's favor. Adding an alternative lifestyle to the equation certainly isn't going to help.
Reality is that both parents can decide the fate of their children and custody. Problem comes in when one is being selfish or vindictive. There is no reason why 50:50 custody can't work, there is no reason why parents can't put the kids first and make a divorce as pleasant as possible for all involved. At the time of my divorce I would have rather launched my ex off a cliff, but I have two kids who love him and that alone was reason to be the bigger person and slap a smile on my face, tell him I still loved him, tell him that I had no regrets about the relationship, and to PUT MY KIDS FIRST. We were the ones that decided 50:50 custody would be our arrangement and we've made it work. I help my kids buy gifts for him, we talk about him in a positive light, etc.
It's when people need to be right, who need to prove they are right, who need to punish their partner... that is when things get messed up and the courts end up deciding the fate of your kids.
I've arranged my schedule to make this work. My schedule sucks. I can have no real social life. BUT, my kids will only be kids for a short while, so it's worth it to ME to do it this way.
Jay
*hugs*
That really is a tough choice to have to make... either way the end result will probably cause some unhappiness. I've been there and I know how it feels, but you have to be strong and let your wife know how you feel. Let her know that this is not something that will just go away. On the same note you need to have some understanding, yourself. If your wife is straight It might be hard for her to imagine the idea of being with another woman. In any case I hope things work out for you and wish you luck.
Quote from: sneakersjay on February 25, 2010, 08:21:02 AM
Reality is that both parents can decide the fate of their children and custody. Problem comes in when one is being selfish or vindictive. There is no reason why 50:50 custody can't work, there is no reason why parents can't put the kids first and make a divorce as pleasant as possible for all involved. At the time of my divorce I would have rather launched my ex off a cliff, but I have two kids who love him and that alone was reason to be the bigger person and slap a smile on my face, tell him I still loved him, tell him that I had no regrets about the relationship, and to PUT MY KIDS FIRST. We were the ones that decided 50:50 custody would be our arrangement and we've made it work. I help my kids buy gifts for him, we talk about him in a positive light, etc.
It's when people need to be right, who need to prove they are right, who need to punish their partner... that is when things get messed up and the courts end up deciding the fate of your kids.
I've arranged my schedule to make this work. My schedule sucks. I can have no real social life. BUT, my kids will only be kids for a short while, so it's worth it to ME to do it this way.
Jay
I'm in pretty much this exact situation. My ex and I have 50:50 custody of the kids, and we've been making it work peacefully (for the most part, but even our minor squabbles are really not so bad, and we keep the kids out of them) for over 3 years now. In my situation, my ex and my kids don't know that I'm trans yet, but in Jay's situation they do (IIRC). Just saying that there are a few different perspectives here, and it doesn't always *have* to end in disaster.
Nevertheless, this is a difficult time for you, and a difficult decision to make. I know that I'm struggling right now with the decision of coming out to my kids (mostly because of how I'm worried their dad will take it, not as much how they'll take it), and it's true that although it's hard to repress ourselves for any reason, the well-being of our kids is the one thing that is worth it.
I'm not saying repress yourself forever, because I definitely agree with you that at some point, your bottled identity and the struggle you have with it, might make you less able to be there for them as a parent. There comes a time when you have to step up to the plate and make yourself more healthy and whole for their sakes, but as most people here are commenting, you need to be 100% completely and fully ready to do that. Financially, job security, living arrangements, emotionally, in every way possible.
It's not easy being half out of the closet while the door is still holding you back, I know firsthand, but if preparing yourself and coming out little at a time can make it any easier on your children (and on yourself as an added benefit), then isn't it worth being slow and careful? Also, once you know that you eventually WILL come out, it makes it a little easier (in some ways) to be patient, because at least you have a goal to work towards. And then those steps along the way aren't stumbling blocks in your path, they're important checkpoints towards your ultimate goal.
*hug*
I won't try to feign understanding as I do not have children yet, though I'll offer what little I can in advice.
Is your wife opposed to transition entirely or is there a way to compromise until your children are raised? Such as, completing all the nonsurgical parts of transition (including HRT, voice, facial hair removal, androgynous gender role) until your children are raised to go full-time, meanwhile being socially female when out of the house? Also during the years perhaps your wife would incrementally be acclimated to it all; maybe part of her stance now is based in fear of the unknown, and given time she may realize it's not so awful. Of course I may be completely off-base with this, so just ignore me if that's so.
I think keywords are "take it slowly and never give up" because people get used to it. This is also for wife, children, family and friends.
For me this has been a very smooth ride and both my wife and my 8yo daughter loves me for who I am and not for whom I pretended to be. For my daughter I'm still "daddy" and always will be no matter if daddy is female or male because the way I see it I'm still her daddy even though I've been FT for soon 3 years.
Sure it was many "huuu??" to start with but as said, they got used to it and now the days are nothing else then normal days.
Also my friend said before "my wife would never accept it" but after a while she's OK with her husband being female. That's life because true love is more then just sex.