What "male privileges" have you lost in the process of transition?
I never considered any of my privileges as a male to really be privileges so to speak. About the only thing I can say that was a lose was the ability to be taken seriously in my male dominated career.
I seems that people, particularly men, just don't think that I am as smart as I was when I was on their side of the fence. My intelligence nor my knowledge has not changed just the gender. Go Figure.
Men who think just cause your a female your dumb and can't do anything.
I don't know if it's because they think of you as dumb but because they have this inbuilt instinct to what to help women as they see them as less physically able therefore just less able in general. I don't think they mean to be like that and it shouldn't be taken that way. Unless you stand up and correct them on something and they flip out and hate you for it.
Just the past few days I've begun to notice how I'm no longer considered part of the 'guys', yet not a part of the 'girls' just yet.. kinda in limbo. The guys are really accepting and supportive, I just don't get included on the guy stuff any more. I guess I've expressed a disinterest in typical guy stuff so it's cool *shrugs*.
Not really a privilege though is it :P
..hhmmm.... in limbo, sums up so much of my life right now.
Dunno.... Never considered having any... I suppose the usual 'more money' 'more respect' and being treated like I know what I'm doing... but to me, i never really gave it a second thought.
I don't think I ever experieneced much male privilage transitioning at the end of my teens, I didn't have the more money, or the respect in the work place, but as ive been living and growing, ive started to see that from this side of the fence... and while i have experienced misogny, and chauvanism, I shrug it off, or proove them wrong with my actions, not theoretical words... I get on with life, like so many other women because this is life... in so many things, its 4 times the effort, for half the respect, but we do it, and we proove we can do it, and we move on.
If male privilage is a factor in your transition... i suggest you reevaluate that one...
Quote from: The None Blonde on February 24, 2010, 10:28:14 PM
If male privilage is a factor in your transition... i suggest you reevaluate that one...
Well, I think that's a matter of when you transition. For those of us starting the process much later in life, who have therefore experienced more of the social benefits accorded to men, it's something that we are, at the very least aware of. That's particularly true if, like me, one has been blessed with multiple privileges: race, class, education, professional status, etc.
Right now - pre-transition, but just about to start the process after years and years of hesitation - I am almost always listened to with respect and taken seriously both personally and professionally. When I'm on the road, the nice woman behind the hotel/car hire/check-in desk will do her very best to get me what I want, if I ask her nicely and smile. I can walk down the street and not get hassled or threatened, nor do I ever feel vulnerable or exposed when travelling alone on a late night train, or eating alone in a restaurant/drinking in a bar. It takes me less than ten minutes to shower, shave, dress and get out of the house, wearing the clothes cleaned and ironed for me by my wife. All that stuff will go within the next two years. And of course it will be a loss.
BUT ... men's lives are increasingly much narrower, more limited and much less expressive than women's. Think of all the different ways a woman can live her life - as a professional person, a mother, a wife: yes, they can involve tough, painful choices, but they are choices men do not have. She can express herself much more freely in their clothes and cover a much wider range from tough one minute to girly the next; from denims and workboots to ballgowns and heels. She can display her vulnerabilities more freely and her emotions more openly. I long for those thing as I have done all my life.
For me, and for all of us who transition from male to female, the exchange is surely a positive one. If it weren't why would we go through the stress, cost, pain and constant potential for humiliation and even violence that transition entails?
But are there losses involved? Absolutely.
My "GID" was to the degree that I was barely functioning as a human being let alone as a "man". Example, I couldn't date. I knew I could never get married. I was self-destructive and I never got a good education. I didn't understand men and I was unable to climb the ladder at work. People expected stuff from me but there were no benefits. I suppose I could walk across town without fearing being raped. But being female has a lot more benefits. Being an attractive female who is relatively young has even more. I am way better off, I have a lot more privilege as a woman. It was impossible to date women before transition but I don't seem to have much trouble attracting men now that I have fixed my life. I am able to socially interact with women now as a member of the female tribe. Children don't have to fear me. I make more money than I ever did before transition. People do nice things for me. Life is good.
As a dude I was able to project an aura of "GET OUT OF MY WAY!" and it worked even against very large men who could have easily stomped me, I got through crowds very easy.
As a chick I try that trick and most men seem to not even notice me its like being a strong wilful chick makes alot of people not want to notice me, and I often have issues geting through crowds. Weird.
Similar to several others' experiences, I apparently dropped a few IQ points with transition. Inversely, I probably became more employable given my female-dominated field...
Lia
Quote from: jayjay on February 24, 2010, 08:14:19 PM
What "male privileges" have you lost in the process of transition?
Ceased to be a nazifeminist target not to mention the "honor" of dying for our country in unfair wars.
I would definitely agree with the apparently losing a few IQ points, and being treated like I don't know what I'm talking about by men in trade professions, even as a bank manager. I guess it's the blond hair. Other than a few instances like that, I can't really think of any situations where I feel that I lost privilege. I don't feel as safe as I used to, I feel like I am more of a target, seen as a weak woman rather than a strong man. That is an odd change, as in my previous profession I was a police officer. So, know I am more of a target, and no longer have the weapon to defend myself with. I just know that I think a lot more about personal safety than I did before.
Kat
security is one of the big ones. As a guy, no one really messed with me and I didn't really worry about walking past a group of guys. But now guys will come up to me and bother me and it makes me feel less safe.
Quote from: Carlita on February 25, 2010, 06:23:48 AM
When I'm on the road, the nice woman behind the hotel/car hire/check-in desk will do her very best to get me what I want, if I ask her nicely and smile.
I just drove 5500 miles alone across the country. The nice girl/woman behind the desk was very nice to me because I was a woman like her and she didn't have to deal with some arrogant man.
Quote from: Carlita on February 25, 2010, 06:23:48 AM
I can walk down the street and not get hassled or threatened, nor do I ever feel vulnerable or exposed when travelling alone on a late night train, or eating alone in a restaurant/drinking in a bar.
I definitely feel more vulnerable, but I have taken steps to keep myself safe.
Quote from: Carlita on February 25, 2010, 06:23:48 AM
It takes me less than ten minutes to shower, shave, dress and get out of the house, wearing the clothes cleaned and ironed for me by my wife.
It takes me a lot longer to get ready in the morning, but I'm happy to do it.
I always did the household laundry and folded it, even when I was married. We each ironed our own clothes, and she had other chores that she took care of. Maybe you can get a valet or lady's maid. ;)
- Kate
I definitely feel more vulnerable as a woman sometimes.
Men not taking me seriously on everyday issues, thinking my brains are in my boobs.
I had 3brothers, but my family was a bit old fashion, when I transition my parents treated me different to my brothers, I realized after transition it is a man's world, I love being a woman but paid a small price to be a woman.
When my Mother was ill my brothers where not expected to do anything, I was expected to do everything because I am a woman, thats the way things where.
p
Quote from: K8 on February 26, 2010, 11:47:53 AM
I just drove 5500 miles alone across the country. The nice girl/woman behind the desk was very nice to me because I was a woman like her and she didn't have to deal with some arrogant man.
Well, I did say that I always ask nicely and smile ... which is, now I come to think about it, the traditionally feminine approach to getting what one wants. So maybe I've always had female privilege without even knowing it! :)
I went from a white, presumed Christian, middle class, respected veteran, businessperson and student to the bottom of the food chain with that first swallowing of hormones. I had no idea how the rest of the world outside white male priviledge lived before I experienced it firsthand. So ya Carlita, don't buy into the roses and ponies crap, it's more likely than not that you're going to fall...hard. Are you sure about this because it's a dramatic shift. The upsides are indescribable, but it's certainly different.
Quote from: Becca on February 27, 2010, 06:05:31 AM
I went from a white, presumed Christian, middle class, respected veteran, businessperson and student to the bottom of the food chain with that first swallowing of hormones. I had no idea how the rest of the world outside white male priviledge lived before I experienced it firsthand. So ya Carlita, don't buy into the roses and ponies crap, it's more likely than not that you're going to fall...hard. Are you sure about this because it's a dramatic shift. The upsides are indescribable, but it's certainly different.
A therapist I was talking to last week - who is incredibly supportive of my situation and very sympathetic - told me that she had spent a lot of time working in India, where they have a strict 'caste' system, which is like the class system, only far, far more rigid. At the top are the Brahmins. At the bottom are the untouchables. 'You are going to go from Brahmin to untouchable,' she said. (I should add that she meant 'untouchable' in terms of the social prejudice against transsexuals. She despises that prejudice, so she wasn't suggesting that being female or TG was actually a bad thing).
So, yes, Becca, you're absolutely right ... and anyone who doesn't think that those of us who are seen by the world as white, male, educated and successful don't have a massive amount of automatic, unearned privilege clearly hasn't been paying attention to the past few hundred years of global history. As any feminist would surely agree ...
And yet, I feel (as I'm sure you do too) compelled to throw it all away in pursuit of a deep and unshakable instinct that my destiny lies elsewhere ...
Hmmmm
I'm seen as less intelligent....
I don't get the discounts I used to at the junkyards for car parts
When I go to the autoparts store, they always roll there eyes at me when Im placing an order, then give me the wrong stuff (for a similar model of car)
I feel much less safe than I used to, to the point of being happy I'm in texas....
On job sites customers don't want to believe that A: I'm actually doing the work and B: I actually know what I'm doing...
Oh, and my employees have refered to me as an evil gold eyed bi***. Something that would have never happened period, let alone with in earshot....
Know what though
I'm still happier :)
It certainly can be tiresome, sometimes when you least expect it, you get a reminder on this '' lost male privilege stuff'' yes it happen today.
Myself and my boyfriend went shopping for a new printer for the computer, I wasn't sure on loading the ink cartridges, I asked the guy a simply question, he answered but explaining it to my boyfriend and ignoring me, I wasn't letting it go, normally I would, just the mood I was in, then he answered rolling his eyes to the heavens ''its ok hun Iv just explained everything to your husband'' I was really annoyed, then at the checkout he says to BF, women should stick to flower arranging and leave the electric complicated stuff to men who know what they are doing, they saw it as a joke, well I didn't, btw my boyfriend is not my husband YET!
Just my fiancé, sorry for ranting and thanks for listening.
p
I have not taken the plunge and "given up male privilege" yet by transitioning at work, and I live alone. (Living alone means I cannot avoid "women's work - eg cleaning and cooking). Part of my hesitation in changing my physical presentation (after the health and financial costs) is the fear of social-emotional cost. During transition I will be a mix and feminine males are reviled and feared or hated by many. I believe I will lose credibility with some people - and credibility is important to my work. I will risk looking silly which I have run from all my life. I work with people who discount women, and make sexist jokes frequently. But nothing I keep by not transitioning makes me feel real or makes me happy. Just less unsafe.
I am not one now, but I was raised a Christian, and I remember some useful quotes, like this one:
"What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world but lose his soul?"
My soul is female, and male privilege is not worth its cost.
Quote from: pretty pauline on April 10, 2010, 07:20:12 PM
It certainly can be tiresome, sometimes when you least expect it, you get a reminder on this '' lost male privilege stuff'' yes it happen today.
Myself and my boyfriend went shopping for a new printer for the computer, I wasn't sure on loading the ink cartridges, I asked the guy a simply question, he answered but explaining it to my boyfriend and ignoring me, I wasn't letting it go, normally I would, just the mood I was in, then he answered rolling his eyes to the heavens ''its ok hun Iv just explained everything to your husband'' I was really annoyed, then at the checkout he says to BF, women should stick to flower arranging and leave the electric complicated stuff to men who know what they are doing, they saw it as a joke, well I didn't, btw my boyfriend is not my husband YET!
Just my fiancé, sorry for ranting and thanks for listening.
p
Geez Pauline, I would have been
steaming! >:( If some jerk ever treated me that way I would be all over him and probably all over his manager. (But then, I am completely capable of being a real bitch. ::))
When I was presenting male and married to a woman, she wanted to buy a little pickup truck. The salesman saw us on the lot and homed in on me. I pointed to my wife. The salesman immediately turned his complete attention to her. She drove a hard bargain but he made the sale. I've always admired him for his flexibility. :) Just because we're women, doesn't mean we have to put up with crap. >:(
- Kate
I feel a little more vulnerable when walking alone at night... but that's about it. To me being a male was never really a privilege.
Quote from: Rachel B. on April 11, 2010, 08:54:22 AM
I feel a little more vulnerable when walking alone at night... but that's about it. To me being a male was never really a privilege.
I feel the same way on both points.
I think my age/life experience might be why I never found being male was a privilege, I'm not too sure though ???
Some privileges are bestowed upon the person and some are activerly acquired. Walking the streets at night without feeling like you are someone's prey is definitely in the first category, and a privilege lost for me.
But the ones like jumping to the front of the line, taking as much space as possible in a elevator or subway car, demanding the bigger plate, imposing's one point of view or mood on a crowd of people, not accepting being denied entry anywhere or having to wait, pretty much acting like a king, are acquired and reinforced in young males by older males.
I have never acted like that in my male life, and confused people that expected me to act like that because of my gender presentation.
Quote from: Rachel B. on April 11, 2010, 08:54:22 AM
To me being a male was never really a privilege.
This with bells on. In fact as soon as i discovered that white, middle class males have a kind of unspoken advantage in the world, just because they are white, middle class and male I realised two things; 1) I'm definitely a feminist and 2) I was cheating...if that makes sense.
Ditto. And that makes a lot of sense. :)
- Kate
Everything I've learnt about the unearned advantage has made me want to shout something along the lines of "I never asked for it in the first place! Here, you have it!"
Oh boy. I am seen as:
a) less intelligent and don't know what I'm talking about.
b) weak and can't fend for myself
c) I am expected to do both male and female things...uh I do have brothers and sisters here at home that could do the jobs but I get asked first (chopping wood, taking mom and dad everywhere, while studying for an exam it can wait b/c family comes first even if it's for something simple that is reserved just for me, etc.)
d) if I am supposed to be nice all the time
I did an interview with IT people recently and they were pretty damn arrogant. I asked questions and they responded by leaning back in their seats, regarding my presence with incredulity, and bringing all the men.. not women.. into the office to meet me. They listened and what shocked me is they couldn't even tell me a definition of a computer :o
I did not use any of their material in my term paper and did fine without that interview.
Quote from: Rock_chick on April 11, 2010, 05:03:28 PM
Everything I've learnt about the unearned advantage has made me want to shout something along the lines of "I never asked for it in the first place! Here, you have it!"
100% agree with this, I walk down the street see a woman and she glaces as looking at a guy, not a girl, I hate it.
Are there really privileges being a guy? I being a guy have yet really noticed any privileges, that could not be gained by a female.
There's this 6'2, fairly attractive, mid 30s white male who based on all the privileges is still consider one of the lowest employees at my work place. Actually another guy is the same way too, tall and attractive, but consider weird. Everyone talks about the first one because he talks too much, and makes too many demeaning comments about "hot" women. All the women in the place are managers, mostly older women, but still women. People are more recognize for being friendly, efficient, and cooperative then they are for their looks, gender, and sexuality even. There's 2 gay guys, 2 bisexual women, and all of them except 1 bisexual woman are consider good employees. That last one is just weird since she's annoying and doesn't even sound comprehensive, everyone males and females are tired of her.
Even the owner is a woman, and then there's two co-owners; 1 woman and 1 male. Everyone prefers the female co-owner, since she isn't a "bitch", like the owner. The owner though is friendly to me, but she is demeaning to mostly everyone else. I hear people complain about her all the time, but if I was her I would had fired half the people already because everyone is way too slow.
I now feel too good for being in the place, because I work harder and more efficient then most of the people. It wasn't because I was a guy, since there's guys in my position consider horrible. And there's girls in my position consider good. It's about the work. I have no enemies in that place either, since everyone likes me too much, weird as that is.
And I am probably the strangest person in that place, but on the outside my demeanor changes to be alike the person I am speaking too. It's like I can relate to everyone. And I am pretty sure if I was a female it would be the same, if not even more so... like if I was female then I could make all those people worship the ground I walk on.
Megan - men have lots of privileges.
- Invisibility. A man's appearance is simply a non-issue, as long as he blends in. Nobody really looks at a male stranger.
- Assumption of competence. Nobody offers unsolicited help or advice.
- Freedom of movement. Men might be just as unsafe on the streets at night as women, but nobody thinks to tell us that. There's no organized effort to keep us trapped in our homes in a state of fear, and nobody's trying to protect our sexual purity.
- Sexual realism. Nobody's shocked (or pretends to be shocked) that a man is thinking about sex, has had sex, wants to have sex, or jokes about sex.
- Inclusion. There's no assumption of cheating or sexual interest when a man hangs out with another man. When men go out in groups, the "new guy" is invited as a matter of course. The "new girl", on the other hand, has to prove herself as "one of the guys" to be included.
- Uncensored interactions. Nobody worries about offending a man. On the flip side, when someone says something truly offensive and inappropriate, a man's opinion of it is taken seriously; when a woman takes offense, she's blamed for being too sensitive, and people simply censor themselves around her rather than reevaluating their position.
- Freedom to assert oneself. Men are expected to have opinions and ideas, voice them, and not always be particularly nice about it. Being blunt and straightforward is valued in a man while it's considered unacceptable in a woman.
- Basic comfort. While FTMs have our own particular comfort challenges, men's clothing in general is comfortable, non-restrictive, and made of good quality materials at a higher level of craftsmanship. It's also heavier and warmer, less revealing, more washable, and comes in colours that almost never clash.
- Acceptability of flaws. This goes with men's appearance being unremarkable. Men are expected to have physical flaws and personality quirks. There's no pressure to cover every blemish with makeup, and there's no pressure to hide every negative emotion under a veneer of niceness.
I do not believe that men should be privileged over women. I've had to battle through layer upon layer of guilt for not being a good enough "strong woman" to stay and help my sisters fight for equality. I still call myself a feminist, I'm quite an idealist, and I call out sexism whenever I see it. But I'm a realist and I know that male privilege exists because I'm living it, right now, even more so than I expected. I can't even turn it down - the best I can do is use it for good.
i agree 100 percent with kyril his points are on the money
jessica
Quote from: K8 on April 11, 2010, 07:31:16 AM
Geez Pauline, I would have been steaming! >:( If some jerk ever treated me that way I would be all over him and probably all over his manager. (But then, I am completely capable of being a real bitch. ::))
When I was presenting male and married to a woman, she wanted to buy a little pickup truck. The salesman saw us on the lot and homed in on me. I pointed to my wife. The salesman immediately turned his complete attention to her. She drove a hard bargain but he made the sale. I've always admired him for his flexibility. :) Just because we're women, doesn't mean we have to put up with crap. >:(
- Kate
I agree, I have not lost anything. I have gained a life.
BTW. I had a friend ( a medic) who had his own private practice. Well off ::) to say the least. He walked into a car salesroom wearing rather daggy trackies and T shirt on a day he was off. Looking at an expensive sports car, the salesman came up to him and said (along the lines) " If you got yourself cleaned up and a job you might one day afford this" He was seriously p**d. He came back the next day in his suit etc. Went straight to the manager and told him that was going to pay cash for this expensive sports car but the salesman had insulted him etc. The poor guy was brought in and fired on the spot. I felt sorry for the salesman, but there is a message, be kind and polite to all, you never know when you may meet a prince, or princess.
Cindy
Quote from: jesse on April 12, 2010, 03:53:36 AM
i agree 100 percent with kyril his points are on the money
jessica
+1 I agree absolutely.
(But I'm still happy to be a woman. :))
- Kate
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
Megan - men have lots of privileges.
- Invisibility. A man's appearance is simply a non-issue, as long as he blends in. Nobody really looks at a male stranger.
- Assumption of competence. Nobody offers unsolicited help or advice.
- Freedom of movement. Men might be just as unsafe on the streets at night as women, but nobody thinks to tell us that. There's no organized effort to keep us trapped in our homes in a state of fear, and nobody's trying to protect our sexual purity.
- Sexual realism. Nobody's shocked (or pretends to be shocked) that a man is thinking about sex, has had sex, wants to have sex, or jokes about sex.
- Inclusion. There's no assumption of cheating or sexual interest when a man hangs out with another man. When men go out in groups, the "new guy" is invited as a matter of course. The "new girl", on the other hand, has to prove herself as "one of the guys" to be included.
- Uncensored interactions. Nobody worries about offending a man. On the flip side, when someone says something truly offensive and inappropriate, a man's opinion of it is taken seriously; when a woman takes offense, she's blamed for being too sensitive, and people simply censor themselves around her rather than reevaluating their position.
- Freedom to assert oneself. Men are expected to have opinions and ideas, voice them, and not always be particularly nice about it. Being blunt and straightforward is valued in a man while it's considered unacceptable in a woman.
- Basic comfort. While FTMs have our own particular comfort challenges, men's clothing in general is comfortable, non-restrictive, and made of good quality materials at a higher level of craftsmanship. It's also heavier and warmer, less revealing, more washable, and comes in colours that almost never clash.
- Acceptability of flaws. This goes with men's appearance being unremarkable. Men are expected to have physical flaws and personality quirks. There's no pressure to cover every blemish with makeup, and there's no pressure to hide every negative emotion under a veneer of niceness.
A lot of very good points Kyril which I just agree with, but as Kate has just said in her post, ''Im still happy to be a woman'' from time to time I will meet a jerk who doesn't know how to treat a woman, yes we should be all equal and priveleges for all, but in the real world as my Mother said to me all them years ago when my transition was complete and I began to experience men from a woman's point of view, ''welcome to womanhood pauline dear, men will be men, get use to it girl'' its hard to get use to some men, but I still love being a woman, a woman with a trans history sometimes I think has to work harder particularly when you'v seen it from both sides.
Its a man's world, I don't mind making sacrifices to be the woman I am.
p
I agree with what you have said Kyril, but from personal experience...
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Invisibility. A man's appearance is simply a non-issue, as long as he blends in. Nobody really looks at a male stranger.
This is true, but not true at the same time. Deviate from accepted bounds of male-ness and you will draw attention and that's not even binging cross dressing into it. I've had abuse for wearing converse all stars, wearing flared jeans, having red hair and down to having a number of facial piercings...usually along the lines of crude insinuations about my sexuality.
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Assumption of competence. Nobody offers unsolicited help or advice.
However if dare to admit you are not competent, because lets face it pretending that you know what your doing when you don't is the mother, aunt and sister of all **** ups, you will be treated with contempt at best, or open hostility at worst.
The others, well I think you've got them right, but for some reason none of them have ever really applied to me.
I'm not saying Kyril is wrong in the main - but on many of the points he makes I do seem to be the odd one out...
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Invisibility. A man's appearance is simply a non-issue, as long as he blends in. Nobody really looks at a male stranger.
Who wants to be invisible? I don't I much prefer to make a grand entrance that people WILL remember.
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Assumption of competence. Nobody offers unsolicited help or advice.
Genuine help or advice is always welcome to me.
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Freedom of movement. Men might be just as unsafe on the streets at night as women, but nobody thinks to tell us that. There's no organized effort to keep us trapped in our homes in a state of fear, and nobody's trying to protect our sexual purity.
Actually I am not afraid to go out alone at night. Maybe I
should be but I refuse to conform.
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Sexual realism. Nobody's shocked (or pretends to be shocked) that a man is thinking about sex, has had sex, wants to have sex, or jokes about sex.
I am a very liberated and honest girl and I just don't care what people think on that score.
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Inclusion. There's no assumption of cheating or sexual interest when a man hangs out with another man. When men go out in groups, the "new guy" is invited as a matter of course. The "new girl", on the other hand, has to prove herself as "one of the guys" to be included.
Not sure what this says about me really but I am almost always automatically invited by them anyway.
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Uncensored interactions. Nobody worries about offending a man. On the flip side, when someone says something truly offensive and inappropriate, a man's opinion of it is taken seriously; when a woman takes offense, she's blamed for being too sensitive, and people simply censor themselves around her rather than reevaluating their position.
I am almost unoffendable anyway so the issue very seldom arises.
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Freedom to assert oneself. Men are expected to have opinions and ideas, voice them, and not always be particularly nice about it. Being blunt and straightforward is valued in a man while it's considered unacceptable in a woman.
I do so anyway and I don't care how unacceptable people think it is - they soon realise that their sexist preconceptions are their problem not mine.
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Basic comfort. While FTMs have our own particular comfort challenges, men's clothing in general is comfortable, non-restrictive, and made of good quality materials at a higher level of craftsmanship. It's also heavier and warmer, less revealing, more washable, and comes in colours that almost never clash.
Mens clothes and colours are also boring, and anyway I can afford to buy good quality warm women's clothes - they are available - you just have to pay a bit more.
Quote from: kyril on April 12, 2010, 02:57:02 AM
- Acceptability of flaws. This goes with men's appearance being unremarkable. Men are expected to have physical flaws and personality quirks. There's no pressure to cover every blemish with makeup, and there's no pressure to hide every negative emotion under a veneer of niceness.
I simply don't - people either take me as I am, warts and all, or they can simply shove off! And as for personality I perfected the art of the eccentric non conforming Upper Class county set girl years ago - think princess anne without the hassle of being royal.
Male privileges? I don't think there were such things existed in our society where positive discrimination against males, as well as the social ideology to be nice towards women..
I'd like to resist the temptation to (off topically) create a list of gender stereotypes and address the actual meaning of this topic.. Men buy drinks for the girls and open doors for them, don't they? Women are the only gender who gets privileges in society because we are seem as less capable as men, I know feminists will flame me for this but I think thats the origins of this inbuilt behaviour of our society..
Little Dragon - I think you have "privilege" backwards. Being seen as more capable is a privilege. Having things done for you because you're seen as less capable is not a privilege.
Buying drinks for someone is actually a display of privilege (the privilege of greater wealth). That's why many straight guys from older generations feel their masculinity is in question when women buy them things. Having things bought for you is a symbolic display of dependence.
Basically, just because something feels nice doesn't mean it's a privilege. And conversely, just because something feels burdensome doesn't mean it's not a privilege. A lot of male privilege can feel like a burden because it's accompanied by responsibilities and expectations. But it's that system of privileges, responsibilities, and expectations that has created a society where men hold a disproportionate number of positions of power (until recently, it was all such positions).
And "feminist" isn't a dirty word! No sane feminist would flame you for observing one of the ways our society shows its sexism. Even if you do have it backwards.
I really don't think when a man buys a lady a drink, that is a display of his own wealthiness.. when it is a guy buying a round of drinks for everyone then yes I'd agree :) But when it is specifically for a single lady, I've always thought of that to be more of an act of chivalry - mannerisms that swoon and charm her, make her feel special, a display of manliness so that he could attract a female..
Let me put this into a contemporary example.. Before I discovered my gender identity being female, I used to have a girlfriend and we were in a bar one time and I was expected to purchase her a drink solely because she was a female and I was a male (and no, she doesn't buy the next round, she isnt supposed to). In the UK at least, society pressures all men into this ritual that a man must buy a girl he is with a drink if he is to display himself to be a decent person; since not doing this is considered to be rude. I'd consider this to be a privilege for a female.. Reading what you said makes me wonder if its a burdersome privilege for a male.. Or perhaps it is a privilege for both sexes, or maybe I'm just looking into this too much..
Me being MtF must have simply swapped my role in this example of gender privilege; the topic of this thread is "Male privileges lost" however, I now think that all male privileges lost will become female privileges gained. (Let's not start listing gender stereotypes in order to contredict the bolded statement, now! ;D)
I might be a woman now, but I can still think about stuff and question why ;D
Quote from: Little Dragon on May 12, 2010, 10:41:08 AM
I really don't think when a man buys a lady a drink, that is a display of his own wealthiness.. when it is a guy buying a round of drinks for everyone then yes I'd agree :) But when it is specifically for a single lady, I've always thought of that to be more of an act of chivalry - mannerisms that swoon and charm her, make her feel special, a display of manliness so that he could attract a female..
That's exactly what it is - but it's a display of manliness
in the form of money. Opening a door for a woman is similarly a symbolic display of manliness in the form of strength. Neither of those is necessarily a privilege in itself, but they're both displays of privilege.
Both of these displays are traditionally frowned upon coming from (people who are perceived to be) women, because they're seen as emasculating - the woman is symbolically asserting herself to be financially or physically equal to a man. This has been improving somewhat in my lifetime, but there are still a large number of men who are visibly uncomfortable with people they perceive as female buying them stuff.
This translates into male privilege because men who perceive themselves as obligated to be financially-dominant see themselves (and thus other men) as requiring better, more reliable jobs and better pay than women, whose income is widely regarded as discretionary and supplemental. And this, along with the overall lower value assigned to 'women's work', translates into significant overall financial disadvantages for households headed by women, and a disproportionate level of financial dependence for women in households headed by men.
I was taught by my grandmother to be chivalrous – to open doors for women, to stand when a woman approached, to walk on the curb side when walking with a woman, etc. These are all nice rituals, but the underlying source is the idea that women are weak and need to be protected. Historically, it hasn't been that long in western civilization since women were not allowed to own property and must live with a husband or father or brother (to protect them – regardless of the abuse they might suffer at his hands – abuse for which there was no legal recourse). We've come a long way, but the remnants of that pervade our customs.
As male, I was expected to be stronger than a woman and to have the money to provide for a woman. Some of you may not see those expectations as privilege, but they come from the male privilege inherent in our culture.
I am now a strong, independent woman. If the surgery were possible then, two hundred years ago I would have had to go live with my brother once I became legally female, despite the fact that I have property and my own money.
- Kate
I have not lost any privilledges. Full stop. I do not believe in hole male priviledge myth in Western culture. In Eastern cultures it really exists. I may even state that we would need stronger male/father-right movement in the Western world.
When it comes to having your work environment effected i think it's important to defend yourself and force that respect back. Talking to men one on one and being very point blank with who you are and your ideas will definitely give them reason to respect you. Of course it's easier if men are willing to understand, but there comes a time where stepping up will be required.
I believe men have a lot of disrespect for the transcommunity because of how we confuse their sexual wiring. Their tunnels don't have windows or doors and they fill it with things they can understand. When we enter their narrow little tunnel minds, the emergency exits are too difficult to find in the dark, which is when the defense mechanisms; eh, violent sneers/remarks or physical violence errupts.
If you make it clear to them you have no devious intentions/motives and you're just being yourself, i believe this is the key to calming the tension. SO i don't think we lose privelages as much as a disguise is covering them while people adjust, we may just have to be clever about uncovering that disguise so people realize we're the exact same person.
Quote from: kyril on May 12, 2010, 11:23:17 AMThis translates into male privilege because men who perceive themselves as obligated to be financially-dominant see themselves (and thus other men) as requiring better, more reliable jobs and better pay than women, whose income is widely regarded as discretionary and supplemental. And this, along with the overall lower value assigned to 'women's work', translates into significant overall financial disadvantages for households headed by women, and a disproportionate level of financial dependence for women in households headed by men.
Perhaps I don't understand the word privilege then, since I always associate the word with benefits T_T So you're talking about "rituals imposed on males by society" ?
I kinda like being considered "weak" because it feels girly :) Back to when I had a girlfriend, I always questioned things "why do I have to buy her a drink?" and "why do I sleep on the floor?" I realise nowadays that I never felt it in me to be manly or to assume the male role in that relationship, I was so uncomfortable with the relationship and I felt trapped because manly rituals were being imposed on me and I was expected to conform to them.
(model answer for those of you who are looking for things to say to your counsellors :P)
Now I can say that
I haven't lost any male privileges, because I never gained them in the first place :)
Thank you for having this enriching discussion with me ^_^
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 12, 2010, 03:30:59 PM
Chivalry is sexism, plain and simple.
Now, if men acted chivalrously towards other men, as well as woman, there would be nothing wrong with it.
But when the behaviour is directed specifically at women, it is sexism.
Ask yourself this: who created chivalry and who enforced the idea that women should enjoy it?
That's right, men did. Women were never consulted. We were simply expected to capitulate and agree that it was wonderful that men did these things for us.
Hon, you sound like an angry feminist, parading your outrage at things you percieve to be sexism XD You aren't on topic and you're simply ranting.
You might not be charmed by chivalrous acts, but you cannot possibly speak for all of us - I happen to like polite men being considerate.
Quote from: Little Dragon on May 12, 2010, 03:26:48 PM
Now I can say that I haven't lost any male privileges, because I never gained them in the first place :)
Thank you for having this enriching discussion with me ^_^
Very true with me : ). But I don't think women are necessarily weak. I think the weakness we understand is more form the fragility to criticism and emotions. I know what you're saying though! but that is also a social mechanism. Women are kick ass. If girls can't lift up a box i kind of just find it funny inside but ultimately it's irking because to me it definitely seems like they're just getting male attention that way!
Plus, i've spotted many of those girls lifting quite independently when no one else is around. Just a secret, girls are fine.
QuoteChivalry is sexism, plain and simple.
Now, if men acted chivalrously towards other men, as well as woman, there would be nothing wrong with it.
I definitely agree with this! BUt I think chivalry is also coming from men attempting to charm certain women they like, which is natural and i think differintiates. Flirting is a varied example and is something we all do in our daily lives. When it comes to the traditional aspect of it, this is true..Otherwise, it's just a tactic to show their admiratioin of a womens beauty. ADMIRATION. rofl..I mean, "respect" of her beauty to gain her trust(subjective beauty). Men historically are not trustworthy in my opinion. I think all men need to gain a women's trust and they use chivalry todo that. Ofcourse if we lived in an ideal world, this wouldn't be true.. but people need to be warmed up by the dominant male, otherwise I myself am quite speculative of someones motives as well. It shows they are willing to step down from their latters and let you go up the latter first. This really depends on the people though! But I think some traditions need to be used in order for dominant men to gain a woman's trust. Otherwise, they're modernly known as douche bags, opposed to the historical extreme. And the next step above that is
creepy. Men don't want to be douche bags..
They wont get any.
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 12, 2010, 03:34:05 PM
So the fact that your chances of being sexually abused as child were drastically reduced (due to being a male), doesn't seem like a privilege to you?
Seems like a pretty massive privilege to me.
This again? I've seen you use these gender stereotypes as if they were Gospel.. I don't believe your
opinions and
statistics are on the subject of this thread
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 12, 2010, 03:34:05 PMThat's an ad hominem attack, with no relevance to this discussion.
I am an angry feminist. There isn't anything wrong with that. Women have a right to be feminists and they have a right to be angry. Neither should be scorned or derided.
Its not ad hominem, because I wasn#t making an argument XD ad hominems only work when "You are A, therefore you are wrong", I was stating my opinion of you. You admit that you are as the statement says, anyway.. You have a right to be angry, but you don't have the right to troll forums.
For the sake of this thread, I'm going to stop this flaming war. I shant entertain you.
OK everyone, take a deep breath, step back from the thread, and review rules 10 and 15 (no flaming or bashing, discussions should be limited to the topic without personal attacks). :police:
- Kate
I was a sexually abused child, so for me at least the probability of rape equaled 100%. I do think everyone should practice politeness and good manners towards either sex, but it doesn't bother me when men are polite to me. Honestly I feel much more privileged now, and see my female traits as strengths rather than weaknesses. Male privilege to me was way overrated. Maybe I just never experienced enough of it to matter that much.
I stand by my statement that I never experienced it enough to make it's absence matter that much. ;)
Quote from: Little Dragon on May 12, 2010, 03:26:48 PMQuoteThis translates into male privilege because men who perceive themselves as obligated to be financially-dominant see themselves (and thus other men) as requiring better, more reliable jobs and better pay than women, whose income is widely regarded as discretionary and supplemental. And this, along with the overall lower value assigned to 'women's work', translates into significant overall financial disadvantages for households headed by women, and a disproportionate level of financial dependence for women in households headed by men.
Perhaps I don't understand the word privilege then, since I always associate the word with benefits T_T So you're talking about "rituals imposed on males by society" ?
The point is that since men are disproportionately responsible for hiring, firing, and salary decisions, and since men view their own and other men's income as necessary while they see women's income as optional, they tend to make employment decisions that protect or increase their male employees' earning power, sometimes at the expense of their female employees.
20+ years ago it was actually normal to state this sort of thing explicitly ("He needs the raise more than you do, darling, he has a
family to support!" said without regard to the woman's family status, or for that matter the man's). Now that sort of explicit statement is grounds for a discrimination lawsuit, but the discrimination still happens, it's just harder to document.
It should be reasonably obvious how higher pay and more reliable employment translate to privilege. Because women make less money and can't count on their jobs as much, single mothers and lesbians are more likely to live in poverty, less likely to own homes, more likely to be in debt, and so on. In addition, straight women who are married and make significantly less than their husbands have much more financial difficulty leaving the relationship; this has profound effects in cases of abuse.
Quote from: Little Dragon on May 12, 2010, 03:33:52 PM
Hon, you sound like an angry feminist, parading your outrage at things you percieve to be sexism XD You aren't on topic and you're simply ranting.
You might not be charmed by chivalrous acts, but you cannot possibly speak for all of us - I happen to like polite men being considerate.
Cate's just ahead of the curve. You'll get there too.
Quote from: kyril on May 12, 2010, 07:11:02 PMIt should be reasonably obvious how higher pay and more reliable employment translate to privilege.
I'm currently looking for work and none of the jobs I've seen say anything like "Annual salary: £X0,000, but if you are a woman, that'll be significantly less".. I don't think I'll get a highly paid job as a man nor a woman, I shall have to start low pay like everybody else does :\ I really can't make an opinion on this because I just don't know how the reality is :/
If there are employers who actually DO pay their women workforce less than men for the
exact same job then that's outrageous.. Let's get back on topic, however ;D
Does qualifying for female-only car insurance count as a female privilege? ;D
It's been a couple decades since it was socially acceptable to state that sort of discrimination explicitly, but it still happens, just more quietly.
It's more complicated than this, though:
QuoteIf there are employers who actually DO pay their women workforce less than men for the exact same job then that's outrageous.
This does happen (Google Lilly Ledbetter). But it's more common to simply offer higher-paying jobs to men to begin with and to promote men preferentially into supervisory roles. Again, all based on the assumption that men ought to be paying for stuff, and that women's income isn't important.
The lower you are on the income/skill/experience ladder, the less obvious this effect is. The oft-referenced "glass ceiling" is that place in the organizational structure where it becomes truly undeniable. For some categories of employees, like retail workers at certain big box stores, the "glass ceiling" can appear as early as the division between floor managers (majority female minorities) and office managers (majority white males, even though they come from the ranks of floor managers). On the other hand, on Wall Street, some high-power female executives might not bump the glass ceiling until they become candidates for CEO positions.
In the US, the average woman earns about 80% of the wage the average man earns. (This may have shifted slightly but only slightly during the current recession/depression/economic downturn, when more men have lost jobs than women.) There are many theories of why this is so, but the disparity holds even when all factors other than gender are accounted for.
I'm not sure of the current status of the suit, but Wal-Mart is/was sued for sex discrimination because it paid women less than men and promoted less-qualified men over more-qualified women. This was a big deal because of the size of Wal-Mart. The company fought the suit tooth and nail, but either is losing or has finally decided to settle. Considering the resources Wal-Mart has at its disposal, a settlement is as good as an admission of guilt. Whether the culture in the company changes remains to be seen.
- Kate
There's a nice chart out there at the infoplease website and I would give you a link to it, but I'm not privileged to post links. So google "wage gap gender race chart" and see that white women currently earn less than 75% as much as white men, and that hispanic women earn bout half as much. It is for US census data, so it is not reporting world wide. It's not clear to me whether they only compared women and men in the same occupations. But they go on to say "The wage gap between women and men cuts across a wide spectrum of occupations. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that in 2007 female financial advisors earned 53.7% of the median weekly wages of male financial advisors, and women in sales occupations earned just 64.8% of men's wages in equivalent positions." So there is some support for the claim that women doing the same jobs as men make less money than men.
Quote from: kyril on May 13, 2010, 09:27:31 AM
It's been a couple decades since it was socially acceptable to state that sort of discrimination explicitly, but it still happens, just more quietly.
Wait, I've just remembered that we've had a female prime minister, here in the uk :) Shes the only female I can ever recall being in charge of anything. I don't think theirs a single bank headed by a female :\ Though, the business industry is probably male dominated because you have to be fiercely aggressive in that industry.. something us ladies cannot cope with T_T
I think regular top-end jobs like Surgeons and Judges have loads of girls tho ;)
The more I think about this, the more I feel kind of oppressed for being a girl T_T
Anywaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy....
I just thought of another thing that might be relevent to this topic ;D
You know how for jobs that require a fitness examination? And women's criteria are always lower than mens? Does that count as a female privilege?
For example, men would have to run 1000m in 2 minutes whereas women would only have to run 800m to pass some fitness test for working as a police officer.. I'm unsure about the exact figures, but I do hear that women don't have to be strong or as fast to get the same job.. this initially sounds beneficial for women because they dont have to work as hard ;D Though by the way this topics been going, I'm assuming that this is a privilege for men for being stronger and faster?
I don't wanna start an argument, though I'm keen to know what you think of this, ƃuıxǝʌ :) To me, this sounds like a beneficial admission of women not being as strong, fast or as capable as men. Is this outragous to you or not? ;D
That's not a privilege. It's condescension. And it damages the perception of women in those jobs. I was in the Navy for 4 years, and throughout that time I met the male physical fitness standards every time. But because I was (seen to be) female, everyone simply assumed that I'd only met the lower standards - that I was slower, weaker, less fit, and generally not as worthy of being there as the guys I worked with. It didn't matter how hard I worked or how much I excelled (at my physical fitness tests, at my job-related tests, or on the job) - I was seen as somehow "less than" because the standards for me were lower.
When I was a (civilian) firefighter, the standards for men and women were the same because they were objective, job-related requirements: "You must be able to carry this 250-pound dummy" or "You must be able to heave this 2-inch pressurized hose up stairs wearing 45 pounds of bulky wet gear and a breathing apparatus." And when the standards are equal, women are treated as equals. Lower standards are just 'the soft bigotry of low expectations.'
Quote from: kyril on May 14, 2010, 02:58:11 PM
That's not a privilege. It's condescension. And it damages the perception of women in those jobs. I was in the Navy for 4 years, and throughout that time I met the male physical fitness standards every time. But because I was (seen to be) female, everyone simply assumed that I'd only met the lower standards - that I was slower, weaker, less fit, and generally not as worthy of being there as the guys I worked with. It didn't matter how hard I worked or how much I excelled (at my physical fitness tests, at my job-related tests, or on the job) - I was seen as somehow "less than" because the standards for me were lower.
When I was a (civilian) firefighter, the standards for men and women were the same because they were objective, job-related requirements: "You must be able to carry this 250-pound dummy" or "You must be able to heave this 2-inch pressurized hose up stairs wearing 45 pounds of bulky wet gear and a breathing apparatus." And when the standards are equal, women are treated as equals. Lower standards are just 'the soft bigotry of low expectations.'
I have the exact same opinions as you on this, I think if you have to be able to be
this strong or
that fast in order to do your job, then it must be same for everybody (not limiting to gender). I think it is kind of condescending to be thought of as less-than capable :( If we both think this, then why does it still exist? I think in the UK the firefighters and police forces and armed forces give women "easier" fitness exams - though I've not checked that up. (im certain about the armed forces however :P)
You know this is no different from being smart enough to work as a surgeon, every applicant has to be intelligent enough to do the job.
the only thing i dislike is not being able to go alone anywhere without feeling paranoid im gonna get attacked or raped. it sucks.
Quote from: Torn1990 on May 12, 2010, 03:37:33 PM
But I don't think women are necessarily weak. If girls can't lift up a box i kind of just find it funny inside but ultimately it's irking because to me it definitely seems like they're just getting male attention that way!
Plus, i've spotted many of those girls lifting quite independently when no one else is around. Just a secret, girls are fine.
I absolutely agree with you, but then guys just love being macho and playing the big strong man, as for lifting boxes well to be honest I hold my hands up, Im guilty, yes I can lift a box, but I have played my feminine vulnerability, struggling in my heels, and in my experience it nearly always works, guys just love impressing a lady, Im just a ''vulnerable lady'' being helped out by a nice big strong gentleman lol am I wrong?? Guys just love that dominant role, how can I say this without being misunderstood, but just sometimes in certain situations, I actually like being ''weak & vulnerable'' it makes me feel more feminine, I get more respect and treated more gentlely as a lady and just being a girl, a guy can be rough, mean and rude to another guy, but a guy who is a gentleman will never do that to a girl and never to a lady.
p
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 14, 2010, 04:06:12 PM
No you don't. No one respects you for being weak and vulnerable.
ekkk I knew it, I knew it, Im being misunderstood lol
p
Privilege: A right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor. (Webster)
.
Honestly, I think this thread has gotten a bit ridiculous.
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Just because there are downsides to a "privilege" doesn't mean it isn't a privilege.
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Yes, it is a privilege not to need to train for the higher requirements. Making something easier is a privilege. Whether you view that as desirable or not is a different question entirely. It is as the definition states above. Are there downsides to how you are viewed later? Certainly, but it doesn't make it any less of a privilege.
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Take male privilege. Sure, men in higher-up business positions are paid more (personally, I've never seen that privilege anywhere I've worked in the last 20 years...but we'll go with it). So...like the above, can I now deny that such is a privilege because there is an expectation that the man will sacrifice his time with family and children for the job? (my dad certainly had to) If the man wants to watch his children grow...it doesn't appear like much of a privilege. It's more of a straight-jacket...and the sacrifice seems ill-worth the cost. But being the breadwinner is the expectation...regardless of the emotional cost. But it's still a "privilege."
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With every privilege there is a price. Some are up front. Some are subtle. Some hit you in the back end. Nothing in this world is free.
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Personally, there isn't any aspect of male privilege that I have ever found useful. No aspect of it that I have ever desired from the time of my youth. The costs are always far far too high.
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Quote from: pretty pauline on May 14, 2010, 04:17:54 PM
ekkk I knew it, I knew it, Im being misunderstood lol
p
Don't worry Pauline, I understand you (and so do a lor of other girls) :P I'd actually agree with you totally, i love feeling weak and vulnerable
when I want to because it DOES feel feminine! :P It's just something that makes me feel girly and thats that.. It has nothing to do with how society wants me to be, I''ve made up my own mind with no external influences just like how wearing pinks and whites make me feel like a girl too. If feminists want to scrutinize me for my OWN opinions about how much I love feeling like a girl, then they aren't really in the defense of women are they? :P
However, having just said that there are times when I don't like feeling weak and vulnerable, thats where your martial arts comes into play (you do know martial arts, dont you?). I'd personally feel utterly gross if I was strong and manly all the time.
OK So could soebody make a conclusion about whether or not athletic prowess is a male privilege?
ƃuıxǝʌ: Nothing in that article refutes what I posted. You can try to re-label something in a different package because you think it's more pleasing to the eyes. (ie: female privilege = benevolent sexism) (Freedom fighter or terrorist? They're both militia...the rest is just political spin.) But it doesn't make it anything different than it was in the first place. It still fits the same definition. Whatever you view as the source of that privilege...whether desirable or not...it doesn't change what it is. It's still a privilege...with all the costs and benefits that accompany it.
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Frankly, I will agree that the source of much of male and female privilege is sexism. I don't see it as a desirable thing...from either end of the looking glass...but it is what it is.
However, the difference is that the status quo for men is one which grants them status and power in both the public and private spheres, whereas the status quo for women is one which limits their power to the much smaller, and more specific, domestic sphere.
While the wording of the above is quite slanted, again...it's different advantages and disadvantages...in different spheres. Just because you value the public sphere more...doesn't mean everyone does. If a man wants domestic considerations, and doesn't care about the public ones (reversal of situation)...the sexism is generally ignored. Though it is still just as much a privilege denied. I've felt that form of sexism...from women...my whole life. Sexism isn't just a one-way street. But that's getting way off topic here...the topic being "privilege."
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It doesn't cease to be a privilege simply because you throw the word "sexism" out there. I'm not going to pitty the poor feminist who thinks that any privilege they have is negligible...while every privilege they don't have is significant. The "don't look here"...."this isn't really a privilege"....without acknowleging what they do have to me is extremely dishonest. (All privileges come at a cost.) Using the same logic, I could completely deny that men have any privilege...simply because those privileges don't reside in the sphere to which I desire. Both extremes are similarly disingenuous.
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Yes, sexism is real. Yes, it is damaging to both men and women. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. But regarding privilege, I stand by my previous post.
Either way, most of this stuff is just the trivial foibles of the entitled affluent class who have the luxury of indulging in such pursuits. Minimum wage is minimum wage regardless of gender. The jobs you are talking about are in part reserved for people with high levels of education, and on an entire different level where sex makes a lot less difference than education and class do.
I'm fairly certain that as Tekla mentioned, some of our lives were never such that it honestly offered any great advantage to miss in its absence, but whatever. Endlessly arguing the point here offers no great advantage either. lol ;) But what about being female in a "man's world"?
From the unique perspective that we do share, the following are some of my own personal observations as a woman interacting with the public at large, and may very well not reflect anyone elses personal experience.
However, I have noticed that in general people tend to be nicer, more polite, and more open with women than with men, and this is especially true when interacting with other women. With men, people are nice enough but there is that sense that it is reserved, that they are holding back, that there is a degree of guardedness. As I said, women especially seem to be much nicer and more open to other women. For one thing, there isn't that unspoken acknowledgment that a man may be stronger, more aggressive, and therefore may present more of a potential threat than a women. I'm not talking about some anecdotal examples that might be given to the contrary, I'm saying that this seems in my experience to be the general way of things. Today at the doctor's office finishing up my pre-surgery tests (which took about 3 hours), I was well cared for by a female nurse and a female medical technician with whom between the tests I chatted about anything and everything, and I was made very much aware of that natural camaraderie that women automatically share simply because we are women. This is by no means the first time I've noticed this, and I find it fascinating.
Yes, the man on the phone calls me "dear" or even "sweetheart"; I'm quite sure he would never say such a thing to another man. Personally I like it as long as he isn't being too forward or vulgar. I thoroughly enjoy being treated like a lady, and I'm old-fashioned enough to appreciate a degree of chivalry (not chauvinism). I acquiesce when a man acts as though he thinks I'm dumb just because I'm female, for not only do I know better, but I know that all women know better. And if I can use that to my advantage, then who is really the dumb one here? Women share a common bond that men are completely clueless about, and it has to do with the shared experience of simply being female. Female bonding is something else again to which the male counterpart doesn't come close, what with mens perpetual hangups about being perceived as weak or somehow less than heterosexual. (To any guys reading this, well, present company excluded of course. You are reading in a transgender support forum after all ;))
Male privilege no doubt exists, in a man's world, where women still have to live and compete. But in a woman's world, things can be seen from a different point of view. To me feminism has never meant giving up my femininity to compete with men on their level, on a playing field created and dominated by men, and trying to "out-male" them at their own game. Men and women are fundamentally different, and until the glacially slow progress of social change brings about true equality of the sexes, meantime it is to our advantage as the underdogs of a patriarchal society to learn how to circumvent the silly rules by which men think they control us, and use them for our own gain without ever in any way resorting to behaving as they do.
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 14, 2010, 07:02:31 PM
Why do you think weakness and vulnerability are seen as feminine traits?
Because they are.
In the state of nature, those women who were physically capable of resisting the unwanted advances of men were naturally deselected. Thus, weakness and vulnerability in women became a dominant genetic trait.
That's also why there are no ugly or fat women. Oh, wait.
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 14, 2010, 07:02:31 PMWhy do you think weakness and vulnerability are seen as feminine traits?
Yet again, you misunderstand the comment I made, like the countless other times you have..
I wasnt even in the slightest bit suggesting that being weak and vulnerable should be a feminine trait, i was informing you of
what i personally think makes me feel girly :) This is another case of "just because you don't feel that way doesn't mean everybody else shouldn't" fortunately, you aren't going to dictate to me what can or cannot make me feel like a girl, lol. And I'm certain that a lot of girls in this world feel the same way :)
I strongly suggest you read slower, hon, don't just rush straight to the "reply" button in order to troll people faster, it only serves to make you look silly :) And you divert from the threads topic :police: (if you'd like to continue this, I strongly suggest you PM me instead)
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 14, 2010, 08:29:55 PM
Why does being weak and vulnerable make you feel more 'girly'?
Neurochemistry, of course ;D I know youre wanting to blame society, but its really programmed in our brains to be this way, our species evolved that way. I'm girly, therefore I am.
Allow me to stress the point I made before, that I only like it when I choose to feel weak and vulnerable. Being forced to feel such is rather scary.