I notice that many cis-women have a "limp wrist" that rests at nearly a 90 degree angle. This seems somewhat awkward to me. Is the natural limp wrist based on bone biology (like the wider female pelvis), or is it the result of carrying a purse for many years on the arm?
Does estrogen loosen up the wrist to make it feel more natural?
Wait, what do you mean limp? I have a female body (but have never ever carried a purse) and my wrist is perfectly happy to bend to about a 90 degree angle, up or down, so if that's what you mean, then yeah, that's normal flexibility. I can't speak to whether estrogen would make your wrists more flexible, but it's possible since it does affect connective tissue.
But if you're saying that cis women's wrists are actually limp (i.e. that they hold them bent at an angle, perhaps like the stereotypical portrayals of gay men?) that's not something I've ever noticed in them, and it's certainly not something determined by female biology (my wrists are ordinarily straight unless I have a reason to bend them).
mom's wrist and mine are pretty much identical O_o hers is a a cm (or a bit less) smaller though :D but hey, she is 13 cm shorter (or so!)
considering that for millennia the women have had to do all the heavy housework like wringing out the bearskin sheets and similar it is reasonable to assume that women's wrists would be more stiff than men who merely push a pen a few hours a day and then guzzle beer all evening...but in fact that 90degree things is one of the markers of femaleness...even though saying that really gets up the noses of practically everyone.
Quote from: lilacwoman on February 26, 2010, 03:20:13 PM
considering that for millennia the women have had to do all the heavy housework like wringing out the bearskin sheets and similar it is reasonable to assume that women's wrists would be more stiff than men who merely push a pen a few hours a day and then guzzle beer all evening...but in fact that 90degree things is one of the markers of femaleness...even though saying that really gets up the noses of practically everyone.
There is no wrist shape difference O_o
I still have no idea what we're talking about. Limp wrist? Anyone got pictures?
I'm very totally confused about this. Please clarify what you mean, otherwise, the thread might just descend into pure speculation. I agree... pics? Could this be something related to arm carry angle (asked to OP)?
As a supposed boy, hearing for years: "You walk like a girl!" and "You throw like a girl" with derision made me tighten up my body language. I could usually pass as a man, although it was never 100%.
Now, since I have loosened up and stopped pretending to be a man, I notice that my wrists are much more flexible. But I am sure it is just because I no longer constrain my movements.
It is really sweet to be free. :D
- Kate
I know what you mean and I've seen some cis-girls do it. I don't think its anything that has to do with bones or tendons but more to do with posture. I don't mean posture as in standing up but more that it is controllable akin to standing straight. I don't have the limp wrist simply because when my wrist is relaxed, so is my arm which is hanging at my side. That's how I see it anyway.
Female wrists, hands and fingers are naturally narrower and longer, and I believe are .... well, more feminine. In spite of a previous comment, pen pushing and beer can subduing were not a standard use of male arms and hands. Try plow pushing, axe swinging, weapon handling, hand saw useage, rope climbing, etc. None of these are great for dainty hands. Hand pampering and moisterizing helps as well.
That said, you do not need to engage in swishing behavior to compensate. I've always had, if not dainty, at least less than ham-like hands, and I worked my whole career moving things, boxes, luggage, steering wheels. I have done flexing and stretching exercises for years, which helps. It's all part of the study process. We watch women for walking, sitting and other mannerisms. Just watch their hands as well.
SusanKG
I've got to start carrying that protractor with me so that I can measure all the "angles" in women ::) Careful though, sometimes imitating women can result in becoming their caricature. No good.
The limp angle of my hand differs for each hand; my right doesn't hang as low as my left. I'm also right handed and spend a lot of time online (cupping a mouse). Back when I still used a cushioned mouse-pad, my right wrist got so stiff I could not move it more than 20 degrees or so either up or down. (Apparently, either the cushion was too resilient or I didn't apply enough weight or pressure to my hand, wrist, and arm to budge the gel.)
I only mention it because daily activity really takes a toll on all joints, anatomical inclination or not.
Quote from: Valentina on February 27, 2010, 05:55:27 AM
I've got to start carrying that protractor with me so that I can measure all the "angles" in women ::) Careful though, sometimes imitating women can result in becoming their caricature. No good.
The protractor isn't made that can measure all the angles in women! ::) That's one of the many things that make us soooo fascinating!
Actually, imitating to the point of caricature can be good training. The secret is dialing it way back down for "show time". So swish those limp wrists, sway those hips, bat those eyes, do the many, many mannerisms that most girls do when they want to; do it to practice.
SusanKG
Just be yourselves O_o that's the reason you started therapy. Not so you can be an actor or actress imitating someone or acting someone else.
There is no anatomical difference in the wrist.
Quote from: Myself on February 27, 2010, 11:21:42 PM
Just be yourselves O_o that's the reason you started therapy. Not so you can be an actor or actress imitating someone or acting someone else.
This.
It saddens me to see trans people cast off the chains of the gender binary, only to bind themselves in a new set of differently-gendered chains.
Some of us do not immediately fit in to the gender we really are and are working toward. We do not have naturally feminine features, we are usually taller than the average, we have many other non-standard features that are not consistant with our desired appearance. We don't have the wiggle and the jiggle and the giggle and other outwardly feminine aspects. So we have to get breast implants, wear wigs, maybe use heavier make-up, take marginally effective voice training, do a thousand other little things to achieve being as close to a reasonable appearing female as possible. No, it is not acting, I am not in training for the stage, I am trying to be a woman, not exchange some sort of theoretical "chains" to fit your plan - I'm following my own plan, thank you very much! If being a woman is only having a vagina it would be much, much easier (and cheaper); you don't believe me, ask any woman!
SusanKG
I just don't see the point of trying to adhere to feminine stereotypes, that's all. I'm trans, thank you very much, and I chafe with rage at people trying to force me to toe the gender-binary line. I can understand passing for physical safety, but a lot of transwomen come off to me as hyper-gendered parodies of womanhood. That's not what I wanted when I started taking estrogen, and I was anxious for a long time that I would end up getting shoved into that box by medical professionals or the world at large. Thankfully, I haven't been
Please don't get me wrong, I don't mean this as a personal attack. I just can't help but wonder when I see transwomen trying so hard to pick up all the baggage that so many cis women work all their lives to cast off. What's the point? Why not take all that energy spent trying to capture the elusive (and nonexistent) essence of womanhood and redirect it towards just pursuing whatever makes you happy, doing what you enjoy? I see no reason for us to mold ourselves to fit society's definition of womanhood. Who cares what angle other women's wrists dangle at? Dangle your wrists however makes you feel happiest.
Quote from: K8 on February 26, 2010, 05:22:23 PM
"You walk like a girl!" and "You throw like a girl"
Yes that's me... I could never ever catch a ball or play table tennis but then I never liked sport and never played football in my life.
However I think this "walk like a girl" is due to toe in and "throw as a girl" is due to the angle between upper and lower arm when your palm is pointing outwards.
There is a fact that oestrogen also soften the connective tissue in the hip so after being on oestrogen for a while the hip might tilt forwards so the possibility that oestrogen also soften the connective tissue in the wrists might be possible.
I find it somewhat ironic how aggressive people become about issues pertaining to gender binary and gender social standards.
The normal world by and large believes in a gender binary and accepts no gray, and the trans world by comparison by and large believes in gender spectrum and accepts no black and white, which puts you in a VERY awkward and often untenable position if you you're both trans and believe in a gender binary and not much gray. But neither group accepts both viewpoints as valid, only their one. And in that regard, both are pretty much just as unaccepting as each other.
Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 28, 2010, 01:31:56 AM
I find it somewhat ironic how aggressive people become about issues pertaining to gender binary and gender social standards.
The normal world by and large believes in a gender binary and accepts no gray, and the trans world by comparison by and large believes in gender spectrum and accepts no black and white, which puts you in a VERY awkward and often untenable position if you you're both trans and believe in a gender binary and not much gray. But neither group accepts both viewpoints as valid, only their one. And in that regard, both are pretty much just as unaccepting as each other.
I really wish the whole trans community rejected the gender binary, but that's not been my experience at all. I find that a lot of trans people try very hard to conform to gender stereotypes.
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 28, 2010, 01:36:07 AM
I really wish the whole trans community rejected the gender binary, but that's not been my experience at all. I find that a lot of trans people try very hard to conform to gender stereotypes.
And I really wish the whole trans community just let people have their own positions without trying to impose their own.
The gray area non-binaries can go do their thing, the binary conforming and/or accepting trans can do theirs.
What's so wrong with that idea? ::)
I don't deny achieving physical features which one desires, How could I! I mean, I went to a surgery when more than one people told me not to.
But what I mean is, when it comes to "poses" and how you "carry" yourself, just be yourself, relax, be natural, it will all come to you.
If you are a woman or a man, then you are a woman or a man. BE YOURSELF, trust yourself, you'll get there. You don't need to look at women or men all around you and learn to imitate them.
SURE. There ARE disadvantages/disabilities like VOICE and APPEARANCE which sometimes require INTERVENTION for example SURGERY or VOICE THERAPY and I am ALL FOR IT. I just think people here are looking WAY TOO MUCH and are seeing things WHICH ARE
NOT THERE.
I don't mean this as any offense, but seriously. Pose like whatever you want to but don't make it artificial. Don't over do it, be natural, be yourself, be unbound. This is the reason people here go through this, to be themselves. I don't see why anything beyond voice and appearance is required, if you are not the type which sways or giggles or bounce then why force yourself to be one?
If you feel like giggling, GIGGLE! if you feel like bouncing, BOUNCE! if you feel like swaying, BY ALL MEANS SWAY! but don't do it just because it is a stereotype.
Be confident that you are who you are and that you don't need to answer to things which are not really there.
I hope the bolds will help people see my opinion and prevent people coming at me saying I am against their goals. My point is in here, be yourself - this is the reason you came here.
Post Merge: February 28, 2010, 02:06:37 AM
Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 28, 2010, 01:38:53 AM
And I really wish the whole trans community just let people have their own positions without trying to impose their own.
The gray area non-binaries can go do their thing, the binary conforming and/or accepting trans can do theirs.
What's so wrong with that idea? ::)
Everyone should do what they want and what they feel comfortable with.
I just think people shouldn't do things just because it's stereotypical.
Quote from: Myself on February 28, 2010, 02:03:31 AM
I just think people shouldn't do things just because it's stereotypical.
I agree, that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm more annoyed by the people who so reject social norms and the gender binary to the point where they're aggressive towards people who don't.
Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 28, 2010, 02:23:44 AM
I agree, that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm more annoyed by the people who so reject social norms and the gender binary to the point where they're aggressive towards people who don't.
I don't like that either, I don't think I ever implied anything as that too. My first posts were to imply that there is nothing with the wrist, later I came to say that people should be themselves and not look too much just to "imitate" and in addition, there is still nothing in the wrist.
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 28, 2010, 01:36:07 AM
I really wish the whole trans community rejected the gender binary, but that's not been my experience at all. I find that a lot of trans people try very hard to conform to gender stereotypes.
We have a trans binary too. Funny, eh? I like that people challenge the binary, even if I personally don't. I'm just on the wrong side of that imaginary binary division.
As for the wrist, no, there is no difference in bone structure. Only habit.
Hmmm ... I think it's pretty much stating the obvious that most women sometimes let their hands hang loosely at an angle to their wrists in a way most men don't, and that they angle their feet (eg when their legs are crossed, just letting their shoe dangle off a toe) in a way men don't.
There's certainly a physical component to this, in the sense that women, by and large, have more flexible joints than men ... and a social one in that these postures are seen and read as more feminine.
But one could look at it the other way and say that the pressure is actually on men to maintain the appearance of strength, rigidity and masculinity (and thereby escape the apparently terrifying threat of appearing effeminate or gay) by keeping their entire bodies much more tense and inflexible. Hell, 'limp-wristed' is a classic insult thrown by macho homophobes at any male who dares to even hint at femininity.
I am still male-bodied, but I quite often find myself, when alone, holding my hands in a 'limp-wristed' way ... I don't know whether this is because I am preparing myself for my imminent transition ... or because it comes naturally to me as someone with Gender Incongruity ...
... but I have another suggestion: maybe it's just much more comfortable and relaxing that way! :)
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 28, 2010, 01:36:07 AM
I really wish the whole trans community rejected the gender binary.
really? i really wish the whole trans community rejected the trans "spectrum".
funny how that sounds when it doesn't apply to you, don't cha think?
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 27, 2010, 11:49:25 PM
This.
It saddens me to see trans people cast off the chains of the gender binary, only to bind themselves in a new set of differently-gendered chains.
I'll go along with Harry Benjamin's idea of a true transsexual having a female brain in a male body...so naturally that brain will control the body and once freed by starting transition it will cause the body to behave in a female manner..
And if that upsets all the non-transsexuals i don't care.
Best not to exaggerate the 'limp wrist' thing. Just use gender appropriate gestures which you will probably find come naturally the more you present as female. If genetic women do indeed have more flexible wrists, those of us who were born with male genes cannot do much about it other than excercises to loosen up the wrists. There are some DVDs out there which advise mtf on feminine deportment and these have some excercise regimes which might help. Just google "feminine deportment" and you will find the site which produces them, run by a lovely genetic female lady from California - sorry her name escapes me right now, but I still have and occasionally use her DVDs.
QuoteAnd if that upsets all the non-transsexuals i don't care.
Yer gettin kind of hardcore there sweety. I usually quietly agree with you on most things, but there's no reason to be off-putting.
It could just be the musculature of the forearm. I know the strength of my grip and the power in my arms and shoulders has dropped dramatically, and I also have found myself more limp wristed. I think it's just from musculature changes, not my true female brain taking over...however validating that idea might be.
Really, it's habit. I have really weak forearms and I don't do the limp-wristed thing. Some gay guys do, and they're completely male-bodied.
Quote from: lilacwoman on February 28, 2010, 05:54:00 AM
I'll go along with Harry Benjamin's idea of a true transsexual having a female brain in a male body...so naturally that brain will control the body and once freed by starting transition it will cause the body to behave in a female manner..
And if that upsets all the non-transsexuals i don't care.
Well, if Harry Benjamin can rise from the grave and give me an exact, rigorous, scientific definition of the so-called "female brain," and a philosophically rigorous defense of why this brain type is intrinsically "female," and what, for that matter, "female" really means, I'd love it, because it would lay a lot of my nervousness around gender to rest. But there's been plenty of time for brain experts and psychological professionals of all types to come up with these things, and they best they can come up with is that the "female brain" is a collection of the most common characteristics found in brain scans of bio women. That the brains of women tend to diverge somewhat from the brains of men is not especially surprising, because women are socialized differently, encouraged to go into different occupations and develop different skills, etc. I just haven't seen an iota of evidence the two binary sexes are
born with two different brain types.
Look, we're all indebted to Harry Benjamin for the valuable work he did - but I'm with Judith Butler on this one. And lest you forget,
I'm on estrogen too. I, too, am contemplating surgery. I, too, have worked very hard to be who I am. I have also been beaten unconscious for it. I just don't see myself as a gender-binary person, and I don't want to stir up a turd storm here, but I
am hurt when people deny me my trans-ness and say "okay, you're a woman now, start acting like one - here's a handbag and a pair of high heels."
I understand that some trans people feel very strongly about the gender binary and feel that non-binary people likewise hurt them by denying their identity - and that's valid. But I do think there's room - plenty of room - for people whose gender identity is close to the binary norm.
There's nothing wrong with it. That doesn't mean that others have to pretend they're close to the binary when they're not, though.
Sigh.This is one of those "interfaith" things, isn't it...
Quote from: lilacwoman on February 28, 2010, 05:54:00 AM
I'll go along with Harry Benjamin's idea of a true transsexual having a female brain in a male body...so naturally that brain will control the body and once freed by starting transition it will cause the body to behave in a female manner..
And if that upsets all the non-transsexuals i don't care.
I agree with this, and am not attributing to you Lilacwoman any position I am responding here.
My only point that started the big-time digression here and which got lost in the fog in my transition-affected mind is that a birth female has certain general physical characteristics they have always had. They walk, talk, move, and act because of both those characteristics and because of the socializing that girls give and get. Some trans-gendered people also have and get at least some of these cross-gender phyisical and social benefits, or as it's been called here, "stereotype" behaviors. Without that lifetime of gender "stereotype training", as some here seem to be on a crusade to denounce, many of us are self-diagnosed as deficient in those behaviors and appearance. I'm sorry if wanting to "wiggle, jiggle and giggle" to feel more within my determined gender presentation goes against anyone else's transition plan that I'm supposed to sign on to, but, too bad.
And to clarify: I am not in any manner wanting to be confused with Marilyn Monroe. I do not delude myself that the Miss America contest awaits me, the life of a Dallas Cheerleader does not appeal to me although I also think it would be nice to be percieved as their loss. If it works for me, why are some here determined to put it down?
SusanKG
Post Merge: February 28, 2010, 03:28:26 PM
Additional added after reading PanaramaIsland's last post -
I believe I didn't attack you or your right to hold transition plans and beliefs that work for you. No one should, that is your plan and your right. Hopefully, no one is pretending, although I've pretended to be male for 63 years. I do wish you continual good luck and green lights in
your progress toward
your gender plan.
SusanKG
For god's sake, can someone please explain what this limp wrist thing is in the first place? I'd love to prove you all wrong but first I need to know what you're wrong about! >:-)
As someone who came out in support of a gender binary viewpoint, I want to reiterate again that by gender binary I am NOT talking gender stereotypes.
Just because you don't think women should have to wear dresses and heels and stupid stuff like that, doesn't mean you don't believe that when you really get down to it, everybody pretty much falls into one side or the other.
If I had to be honest, and I'll probably get attacked for saying this, I don't believe there's any real thing as a true gender spectrum. I don't believe that there's a "third gender" or anything like that, I just don't, and I can't make myself believe it. It doesn't mean I don't respect the rights of other people to identify that way, and to the best I can I'll support people in that, but I personally don't believe in it.
That doesn't mean I believe in rigid stereotypes either and that there isn't a world of gray in between the options.
Oh and I still don't really understand what this wrist angle thing is, lol.
I get really tired of all these petty arguments, why can't everybody just let everybody else have their own beliefs even if you don't agree with them. These arguments are futile and invariably dissolve into attacks. Why can't I just say I don't believe in a gender spectrum, and other people can say they do, and just leave it there and take it no further?
Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 28, 2010, 06:20:06 PM
As someone who came out in support of a gender binary viewpoint, I want to reiterate again that by gender binary I am NOT talking gender stereotypes.
Just because you don't think women should have to wear dresses and heels and stupid stuff like that, doesn't mean you don't believe that when you really get down to it, everybody pretty much falls into one side or the other.
If I had to be honest, and I'll probably get attacked for saying this, I don't believe there's any real thing as a true gender spectrum. I don't believe that there's a "third gender" or anything like that, I just don't, and I can't make myself believe it. It doesn't mean I don't respect the rights of other people to identify that way, and to the best I can I'll support people in that, but I personally don't believe in it.
That doesn't mean I believe in rigid stereotypes either and that there isn't a world of gray in between the options.
Oh and I still don't really understand what this wrist angle thing is, lol.
I get really tired of all these petty arguments, why can't everybody just let everybody else have their own beliefs even if you don't agree with them. These arguments are futile and invariably dissolve into attacks. Why can't I just say I don't believe in a gender spectrum, and other people can say they do, and just leave it there and take it no further?
You just denied my existence as a genderqueer person. That's not petty - that's
very important. I come here for support, not to be denied and swept under the rug. I don't mean to squabble, but there's a reason why I bring these things up. I expect my identity to be embraced, here of all places. I can't be held responsible for upholding the illusion of a gender binary, and I'm not going to deny my own identity to do so.
This afternoon I spent a few hours mothersitting and watching Death on the Nile and then some modern audience participation stuff and I have to say the difference between male and female body and face language was so marked as to be unmistakable. OK.. maybe the actresses in the film were exaggerating a bit but in the other stuff there were ordinary people doing things and again the difference was chalk and cheese...especially the hand and wrist actions of all the females...the men in the old films and the modern show looked to be practically paralyzed by comparison...if you're female you'll be loose jointed and supple...
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 28, 2010, 06:28:29 PM
You just denied my existence as a genderqueer person. That's not petty - that's very important. I come here for support, not to be denied and swept under the rug. I don't mean to squabble, but there's a reason why I bring these things up. I expect my identity to be embraced, here of all places. I can't be held responsible for upholding the illusion of a gender binary, and I'm not going to deny my own identity to do so.
Nobodies telling you you don't exist. You have every right to identify as genderqueer, and I'm fine with that. My personal beliefs don't accommodate it as an equal identity to male and female, but why do you care what I believe? They're just my opinions and I feel I have every right to have them without being condemned and judged for it. Just as you should have every right to have yours too.
But I see no difference in being aggressive and hostile towards people who accept a gender binary to people who are aggressive and hostile to people who do not. They're both intolerance and I wish it would stop.
I didn't deny your existence as a genderqueer person, I denied that I personally view that there is any other gender other than male and female. Those are my personal beliefs, would you prefer I lie to you and tell you they're not? Or just say nothing and let you rant about people like me who believe in a gender binary? Because to be honest, neither sound very fair or appealing.
You have every right to believe what you want, and I'm fine with that, but people should try to accept that we don't all agree and that that's perfectly fine.
Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 28, 2010, 06:54:32 PM
Nobodies telling you you don't exist. You have every right to identify as genderqueer, and I'm fine with that. My personal beliefs don't accommodate it as an equal identity to male and female, but why do you care what I believe? They're just my opinions and I feel I have every right to have them without being condemned and judged for it. Just as you should have every right to have yours too.
But I see no difference in being aggressive and hostile towards people who accept a gender binary to people who are aggressive and hostile to people who do not. They're both intolerance and I wish it would stop.
I didn't deny your existence as a genderqueer person, I denied that I personally view that there is any other gender other than male and female. Those are my personal beliefs, would you prefer I lie to you and tell you they're not? Or just say nothing and let you rant about people like me who believe in a gender binary? Because to be honest, neither sound very fair or appealing.
You have every right to believe what you want, and I'm fine with that, but people should try to accept that we don't all agree and that that's perfectly fine.
You tell my you accept me and then in the same breath say that you don't believe people like me exist. Fuggedaboutit. I'm not going to argue about this any more.
I think we've gone about as far as we can on this subject.
Topic locked.