I would like to preface this post by saying that my relationship with my parents is very important to me. My parents have tried to be supportive of me despite themselves. They have even attended family therapy with me in attempts to work things out between us. If at all possible I want to be able to keep our relationship in tact (or even improve it from the facade it was before coming out to them) as I discover more about myself, and transition.
Last November I asked my parents if I could see a therapist; they asked why I wanted to see a therapist, and I told them it was because I felt like I was a guy. At first they didn't seem to react. Like they said they understood, but I think they were more in shock then anything. Later on I would come to learn the full extent of their actual feelings. My mom thinks my masculine identity may be an oppression by spiritual demons, and my father thinks I'm living in a delusional world of make-believe. Again, they have still been supportive of me despite their keep opposing viewpoints. But I've been getting asked these questions (in the spirit of "wanting to understand" according to my mother) that are very difficult to answer. For example...
"What makes you think you're a boy?"
"Can you give me an example of a 'Boy Thought' ?"
"Why should gender matter?"
...just to name a few. Months ago I might have said that gender didn't matter, because that was the coping method I had developed in order to deal with my sense of self not "fitting" my body (hint: ignoring problems do not make them go away). So as I come to grips with my (queer) masculine identity I have had to kind of re-think my ideas/views on gender. But years of conditioning oneself to ignore gender all together can't be un-done overnight, and there is a big part of me that has blocked out, or just plain forgotten how much gender affects so much of our lives. So I get really tripped up when asked questions like the above. Then I get things like...
"How can you expect us to accept this when you can't give us a reason why?"
Despite myself, I have tried to give some logical reasons, like my preference for male clothing/hairstyles/etc, my disdain for my physically female body parts (and *ahem* envy of the male body), and the comfort I feel presenting as male. I also have tried pulling on the emotional heart strings, the dysphoria I felt identifying as female, the major positive impact my masculine identity has had on me (I've had people comment on my drive/good moods), and not to mention that unquestionably "right" feeling I get when referred to as he/him/sir (and the converse pain that she/her/lady/girl brings). But for every reason I present, they have some reason why it's not a real reason (ie; "lots of women prefer men's clothes, that doesn't make them men").
I don't know if I'm just being impatient with them (and their ignorance), maybe I need to give them more time, or maybe I'm not doing a good job of helping them to understand?
Have any of you guys been asked these questions?
Have you had give your reasons for why you feel that you are guy?
Have you had to guide a parent/sibling/family member/friend/SO through understanding what is means to be transgendered?
Do you have any advice for my situation? Any stories to share?
Any thoughts/comments/etc?
Please discuss.
i once asked my girlfriend how she knew she was female and she said it was because she just was. She woke up in a morning looked in the mirror and saw herself; female to the stage where it didn't even cross her mind that she might be anything else other than female-the thought never entered her mind. the fact that we look in the mirror and question what we see, that we doubt the physical body we have been given, that where others look at us and see female our brains are screaming male; thats the answer i give when asked
You don't want to be a boy, you are a boy. You want to be yourself, right now things appear to disagree with you, you're fixing it.
You said yourself you tried to ignore it and couldn't. That was a big indicator for me. After the first time I tried to start transitioning and got really scared, I tried to be really female. I grew my hair down to my butt, started trying to add more inflection to my voice and use more female mannerisms (which I never really used before but now that I've established those habits it sucks trying to get rid of them) I even bought a few skirts which I only wore once or twice. But my feelings still didn't go away. I could hide behind my hair and wear my skirt and pretend to be female but the entire time I felt like a guy in a dress and it felt ridiculous. It didn't work. Maybe you could mention how you tried but it didn't work out.
When they pull out the whole - but lots of women like such and such, and that doesn't make them men... No it doesn't - the fact that you feel like a guy is what makes you different. If that weren't the case I doubt you'd be having the conversation?!! The difference is that those chicks still see themselves as women and female - you don't (I'm assuming).
No offense intended but your folks sound like a lot of people - they're stuck only seeing male and female. Male = masculine and a dick. Female = feminine and boobs. It isn't that simple - maybe you could introduce them to the gender SPECTRUM in place of the binary they're used to?? Might help them understand a bit - I dunno and of course I could be wrong...
I have similar thoughts now and again where I ask myself how I expect to be treated as the man I am when I fall back into habits I developed when I was living as female? I got so sick of having altercations in the ladies room at pubs and arguments in general with people who demanded to know 'what' I was - I began to laugh more feminine, touch when I talked to people and generally hold myself in a more feminine way to avoid those situations. Now I need to develop new ones and forget those!! It sucks!
As for an example of the way you think of things - like a 'boy thought'... Ask for an example of a 'girl thought'!! I don't think there is any such things! But I guess - are you emotional? Do you cry at the drop of a hat like those running on estrogen do? I hope I'm not coming across as sexist that is just biology! I'm assuming you have chatted to your folks before about all that is going on - have you told them what living with the dysphoria is like?
I painted a picture for my parents of a little boy, just like my brother, but this one had a girl's name, got stuffed into dresses and never felt like he fit in, who always felt wrong and strange. I tried to help them see that it is ME - that HE is ME and the ME they have always loved and adored. Not my body. They didn't love me because I was 'female' - and now they will not love me BECAUSE I am male. They just love ME!
Outline the fact it is a medical condition - treated by doctors and therapists and that there are many guys out there just like you. I offered lots of literature - of stories of guys just like us. My dad said he thought he was reading about me - that he could see me and my childhood mirrored in the pages of the books.
If you feel like a guy - dude, you can't hide from it. You can try - as I'm sure we all tried by ignoring it and hoping the feelings would go away. Other people don't question who they physically see every morning - we do. Tell them that.
I don't know if this is making any sense so stopping... now.
QuoteAs for an example of the way you think of things - like a 'boy thought'... Ask for an example of a 'girl thought'!! I don't think there is any such things! But I guess - are you emotional? Do you cry at the drop of a hat like those running on estrogen do? I hope I'm not coming across as sexist that is just biology!
Not even that is clear-cut, but then I always was awkward :P You see, some of us
do get more emotional and are more prone to tears. However, we also feel more naturally aggressive than the average woman, we're not
completely in touch with or like expressing our emotions and relate more to men than women. I don't pretend to be completely male - I just identify most closely with "androgynous man". Which makes the desire to be male even harder to explain to others - not to mention figuring out for myself what was going on.
It might be easier for some to explain why they feel this way than others. I do know that from living with two atypical men, there's no such thing as a "boy thought" per se. Everyone's different, after all.
Share these with your family. Sometimes having someone else do the explaining is helpful.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18250458/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18250458/)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26872503#26872503 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26872503#26872503)
Jay
"Why should gender matter?"
I just about cried when I saw that. If your mother woke up one morning with everyone calling her "he" and "sir" despite who she really is (or if the analogous event happened to your dad), then I suspect that gender would suddenly matter a whole heck of a lot.
I feel that, as a couple of other people have said, it's fundamentally about who you are, not what you like to do or wear.
Forgive me for being blunt, but your mother sounds hypocritical and ignorant. (Well, you yourself said they were ignorant.) Does she require evidence that someone is being oppressed by demons? If so, what evidence will satisfy her? If not, why does she require evidence that you are a boy?
Sorry, I'm just rambling and not making a heck of a lot of sense.
I have never had to deal with this scenario. I have not been in touch with my own parents for many years. I came out to my brother several months ago and had no real problems. My ex knew I was male-identified since the very early stages of our relationship. The people who didn't know tended to be liberal academics, so no problem when I came back out of the closet.
I have never had to justify my gender to anyone, and (perhaps irrationally), I am offended by the very idea, just as I would be if some well-meaning acquaintance were to ask me, "Gee, how do you know you are a secular humanist? Maybe you really aren't!" or "How do you know that you're gay? Why does it matter? Maybe you're really straight but confused!" It just seems obvious to me. This is who I am, this is what I believe, I didn't arrive there capriciously, take me as I am.
However, other people can't go inside my mind and see what is there. I guess it's reasonable to ask why you think you're a guy. And it's reasonable to feel that the response "Because I identify as one" or "Because I feel like one" is not a very satisfying or convincing answer.
If your parents are willing to do some reading, perhaps a couple of good trans autobiographies would help. Find a book or two that you like that seems to speak of an experience like yours. Then pass it along. But don't be surprised if there isn't much effect.
A therapist should be able to help. Have you started going? Do your parents support the idea? What's up with that?
Sorry if I'm not much help.
I realise I'm on the other side of the fence, but the questions are the same. Why do you think you're a girl? I don't, I am. Isn't it just an excuse to masturbate wearing pretty undies? J****s H C****t. What will your friends think? What friends? It's just a phase. I've been in this phase since I could hold a thought. Why would you want to give up your penis, don't you want to marry a woman and give her babies? What the Hell. I WANT MY OWN BABIES.
I think the truth is, is that people who are not TG, or trained in psychology etc have no idea what the hell every day is. Yet again waking up and looking in the mirror to the dead eyes locked in the flesh prison.
Sorry, I probably didn't help. Everyones Hell is different. Although I still think that FtMs Hell is worse. I admire my brothers so much. You help me make it through the day.
Hugs and feeling mushy :-*
Cindy
Quote from: CindyJames on March 07, 2010, 02:06:22 AM
Everyones Hell is different. Although I still think that FtMs Hell is worse.
If you don't mind my asking, how?
Why should gender matter
Okay, if gender doesn't matter, then they shouldn't care if you're a girl or a boy.
Quote from: Devin87 on March 06, 2010, 06:40:27 AMI could hide behind my hair and wear my skirt and pretend to be female but the entire time I felt like a guy in a dress and it felt ridiculous. It didn't work.
Ditto. It's just plain uncomfortable.
Quote from: jmaxley on March 07, 2010, 07:33:18 PM
Why should gender matter
Okay, if gender doesn't matter, then they shouldn't care if you're a girl or a boy.
Seconded.
Quote from: jmaxley
Why should gender matter.
If gender didn't matter why are you here? ;)
And expect responds like "If it doesn't matter then be a girl."
Quote from: SilverFang on March 07, 2010, 02:52:49 PM
If you don't mind my asking, how?
The extent and cost of surgery. Putting up with a menstrual cycle when it is definitly not wanted.
Quote from: CindyJames on March 07, 2010, 11:44:05 PM
The extent and cost of surgery. Putting up with a menstrual cycle when it is definitly not wanted.
Interesting.
Quote from: SilverFang on March 08, 2010, 01:06:24 AM
Interesting.
I apologise if I'm in any way I was rude. Every thing we feel and do come from our own perspectives; but as somone commented "the grass is brown on both sides of the fence"
Quote from: CindyJames on March 08, 2010, 01:29:42 AM
I apologise if I'm in any way I was rude. Every thing we feel and do come from our own perspectives; but as somone commented "the grass is brown on both sides of the fence"
No, not offended at all. Just want to know why you think so. From this side, the girls look like they have more to be frustrated with to me.
Quote from: CindyJames on March 08, 2010, 01:29:42 AM
I apologise if I'm in any way I was rude. Every thing we feel and do come from our own perspectives; but as somone commented "the grass is brown on both sides of the fence"
No apologies needed Cindy. I was interested to hear your answer also, because I think you ladies have it much rougher! Yeah, the monthly issue stinks, but I suppose no worse than your unwanted bits standing at attention unbidden!
Why I think you ladies have it worse is because society (in general) will never understand why you want to be women (not understanding that you ARE women), how society is hard on what they call 'sissy' men (which many think you are) and how you aren't as free to express your feminine side until you truly transition because of the negativity heaped on someone who is perceived as male trying to present as female (ie you're sick, a joke, etc). That would weigh harder on my psyche. You ladies are truly courageous, IMO!
Whereas guys like me can dress like men and express our masculine sides without most people thinking it being odd.
Jay
I was asked that question for the first time when I was in college. I went to this center which has people you can talk to about problems (not sure if they were therapists or social workers). I went there hoping I could get "the letter" from them, but the people there had no idea what I was talking about when I said things like "gender identity disorder" or "transgender." The woman I met with said she googled it right before I came in. The first question she asked after my nmae and stuff like that was either "How do you know..." or "Why do you think..." I ended up quickly asking her the same question but about being a woman. If you take away genitals how do you know?
For relatives there are a lot of books out there that might be helpful in explaining it...I feel like I'm crappy with using language so it's easier for me to take somebody else's words, point them out and say "this is how I feel." Read some books and see if there are any you relate to.
Quote from: Aussie Jay on March 06, 2010, 07:13:22 AM
As for an example of the way you think of things - like a 'boy thought'... Ask for an example of a 'girl thought'!! I don't think there is any such things! But I guess - are you emotional? Do you cry at the drop of a hat like those running on estrogen do? I hope I'm not coming across as sexist that is just biology! I'm assuming you have chatted to your folks before about all that is going on - have you told them what living with the dysphoria is like?
I'm not sure that's a good test. Most of us can't escape the fact that we
are (currently) running on estrogen - that's undeniable, and it sometimes shows. The hormones do their job regardless of whether you want them to or not. The difference, to me, is that the excessive teariness/emotional volatility is disturbing and foreign and incomprehensible. I don't know why I have these intense feelings, they come out of nowhere and make no sense to me and I can't name them or talk about them (and they're just as baffling when they occur in other people).
Actually, that might be a good example of a "boy thought."
Quote from: sneakersjay on March 08, 2010, 07:25:22 AM
Whereas guys like me can dress like men and express our masculine sides without most people thinking it being odd.
Mostly. Till you go into the women's restroom and are challenged or chased out, or hear people call you lesbo or dyke as if it were a bad thing (and I'm not! I'm gay!), or call you "it" and "that," or ask your partner (not you), "Excuse me! Excuse me! Is that a boy or a girl?"
And even with all of that, you're right, the social stigma tends to be much, much nastier for the women.
Quote from: sneakersjay on March 08, 2010, 07:25:22 AM
Why I think you ladies have it worse is because society (in general) will never understand why you want to be women (not understanding that you ARE women), how society is hard on what they call 'sissy' men (which many think you are) and how you aren't as free to express your feminine side until you truly transition because of the negativity heaped on someone who is perceived as male trying to present as female (ie you're sick, a joke, etc). That would weigh harder on my psyche. You ladies are truly courageous, IMO!
Whereas guys like me can dress like men and express our masculine sides without most people thinking it being odd.
Cindy:- this
Thanks Guys
I suppose I had never thought of it that way. I have to admit I'm no longer embarrassed by most of the crudities. I think people who have to support their fledgeling ego by being rude to anyone is pitiful. I have to be careful not to laugh or respond sometimes, in case I get physically attacked. I'm pretty sure I could no longer defend my self against a full physical onslaught by a guy. I'm not sure I ever could :angel: but now a days I don't feel the level of violence in me that carried through on those occasions.
I am cautious when I'm out. Which is something I never even thought about when acting male. Even in Liverpool (UK) where I grew up I was OK going to most places. OK there where and are someplaces any person with a brain should not go, and there were plenty of those in Liverpool :laugh:.
I think Susan's can be a dangerous place. We are use to talking to each other in a civil and indeed helpful and understanding manner. We forget that in the big outside not everyone is as understanding.
Sorry for distracting the thread.
Hugs to you all
Cindy
Quite true Cindy. You need thick skin when transitioning.
Quote from: CindyJames on March 09, 2010, 01:46:23 AMI think Susan's can be a dangerous place. We are use to talking to each other in a civil and indeed helpful and understanding manner. We forget that in the big outside not everyone is as understanding.
I could not agree with you more.
Quote from: CindyJames on March 09, 2010, 01:46:23 AM
Even in Liverpool (UK) where I grew up I was OK going to most places. OK there where and are someplaces any person with a brain should not go, and there were plenty of those in Liverpool :laugh:.
Cindy! You grew up in Liverpool? Me too. I don't know why I find this so amusing, but I do.
Sorry for being off topic, whoops ;D
another one off topic-my gf is from liverpool too-god i love the accent