Susan's Place Transgender Resources

One of the ways discriminated against groups used to minimize prejudice is to formulate new terminology to describe them, even if it's just one word.

- Queer was changed to gay.
- Negro to Black to African American.
- ->-bleeped-<- to crossdresser.
- Some immigrants even changed their last names when coming to the US.

No doubt, there's a negative stigma attached to transsexual, ->-bleeped-<-, and even transgender, but maybe to a lesser degree.  I, for one, would love to dump transsexual and come up with something that better describes it.  X-Gen is already taken.  Maybe "Gendual" (dual-gendered).  ::)

So, if you were given the job to come up with a new term for crossdresser, transsexual, transgender... what would it be?

woman

We don't need anymore words for transsexual/transgender IMO. There are way too many used already.

I'm not sure, but it needs to be fewer syllables and to sound like it's not some sort of illness.  As it stands, people think that we're either pretentious or sick.  This will not do.

I'm totally with you on this idea, and have been trying to think about a new term for a while.  And while woman would be nice (or man if you're FtM) that's a pipe dream.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I thought there was a difference between ->-bleeped-<- and cross-dresser. What I had learned, incorrectly perhaps, was that a ->-bleeped-<- was a person who gets sexual pleasure in dressing in clothes of the opposite gender whereas a cross-dresser just likes wearing the clothes for the sake of wearing the clothes.

Again, what I learned might have been wrong, but I'd learned that all ->-bleeped-<-s are cross-dressers, but not all cross-dressers are ->-bleeped-<-s.

Quote from: Sandy on March 27, 2010, 08:04:50 AMwoman

That would be great Sandy if...
- We weren't ever read to be trans
- We could completely change every single piece of identification, including credit history, job history, vital records, etc to our chosen name and gender - and there was no record of the former name or gender
- We could erase any memory of  being of our birth gender from the minds of those who know us

Quote from: Dianna on March 27, 2010, 08:40:27 AMWe don't need anymore words for transsexual/transgender IMO. There are way too many used already.

The intent is to dump all the names and terms that have negative stigmas so there wouldn't be all those names.  Then to bring a fresh face to the terms used for those born in the wrong physical gender.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 27, 2010, 09:54:42 AM
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I thought there was a difference between ->-bleeped-<- and cross-dresser. What I had learned, incorrectly perhaps, was that a ->-bleeped-<- was a person who gets sexual pleasure in dressing in clothes of the opposite gender whereas a cross-dresser just likes wearing the clothes for the sake of wearing the clothes.

In time it may become just a clothes thing but initially, from everyone I've talked to, there's a sexual arousal component to CDing.  But there was a time all crossdressing men were called ->-bleeped-<-.

I know what you mean. The terminology seems to cause a lot of confusion even among people like us, so you know it must be confusing for everyone else. I disagree that there are too many terms, though, or that they can be simplified into one. That isn't true.

The terms "->-bleeped-<-" and "transsexual" are clinical terms created by medical and psychology professions. "->-bleeped-<-" has long been considered a "disorder" that is to be "cured". I never use it it to describe myself or anyone else. "Crossdressing" simply describes an activity. A person can cross dress for any number of reasons.

One thing I hate about these terms is that they often overemphasize one aspect of a person, diminishing everything else. Why should a fashion choice characterize a person's entire identity? I'm a whole lot more than a pair of feet wearing high heels. Even if your entire gender identity is as a women (not the case for me) your identity goes way beyond gender.

When you call some a ->-bleeped-<-, you skip over everything else about them. A women who likes to wear pink isn't considered a "pinkvestite". A man who builds his muscles isn't a "bulkvestite".

The real problem with these labels is that there aren't really enough of them to cover all the ways of being they attempt to describe. While a "transsexual" is considered a person born one gender, but feeling she/he is another, this is not a simple matter. There are more than a dozen intersex situations that can affect this, as well as situations that seem to originate with the mind alone. To place all such persons under the same term is about as valid as calling everyone with shoulder length hair a "woman" because most people with shoulder length hair are.

Here's an idea: Don't use a label at all. Just be Julie. I'll be Lyric. If someone wants to understand us better, they can get to acquainted with us as they would anyone else.

Lyric

duo animus Latin for two spirit.  Covers both us girls and the guys too

IDK. I was pondering this with Julie today when we spoke about it. Trans woman isn't bad, but I agree that it does conjure up some negative things for some people. I've heard of 'gender gifted', but then again, this is not really a gift that I would have wished for. My wish would have been to have been born gg, but somehow with the knowledge and insights that I now possess for having gone through this process of introspection and enlightenment.

I guess in the end, I'm just Julie. My birth certificate reads female, and I've done everything possible that I could do to redo that which I felt needed correction. I do wish, however, that there were no other records that would put my birth certificate into question.  I still maintain, that due to computers and record keeping, that our medical record ( and psychological record) is the only one that employers get to see durin the hiring process. I don't think it's fair. Can you imagine the outrage and calls for change if every heart condition, drinking problem or psychological issue popped up someplace while you were interviewing and applying for a job?

I guess this is a little off the beaten path, but I believe that we should have the right to only be  known as the gender we now belong to, and by our chosen name. Period.

To Sandy's point, I'm just Julie--female.

I don't really mind the current terms all that much, although it would be nice if the difference between transsexual and transgender could be easily understood from the difference between sex and gender. The main thing for me is to have a complete set, with similar terms for those who are not trans. As long as there are well-established terms only for us, the non-trans majority will simply consider themselves normal... :P

  Nfr

LGBT means we are last but at least we are in there.

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 27, 2010, 10:10:04 AM
In time it may become just a clothes thing but initially, from everyone I've talked to, there's a sexual arousal component to CDing.  But there was a time all crossdressing men were called ->-bleeped-<-.

Well, that's just because you haven't yet talked to me!  ;)

And, yes, ->-bleeped-<- was the original term for a cross-dressing man. Susan Styker asserts in her book Transgender History that this term is now descriptive of a sexual fetish and that cross-dresser is more of a gender presentation rather than a sexual fetish. This has been my experience as both a ->-bleeped-<- in my teens through early 30's, and now as a cross-dresser in my late 30's. Cross-dressing, for me, no longer provides any sexual satisfaction or excitement these days.

"Trans"gendered implies a journey across, from point A to point B or from somewhere were not to somewhere we want to be whereas "cross"gendered, aside from the same connotation as above, can also denote conflict, a static short circut or signal mix up (of social cues?). . .

Something that, on the surface of it, is really quite simple and easily correctable?

Hrmm.  Well, the largest problem with coming up with new terminology, is making it relevant enough for the general public to use.  The main problem being, that most people don't understand even the most basic parts of the relationship between sex and gender.  Until they are able to understand them as separate concepts, coming up with viable new terms that are meaningful is going to be difficult.  It's the same sort of problem you get with the alternate pronouns (hir, zie, etc...)  They're certainly viable words, they're generally short and simple combinations of current gendered pronouns...but they don't have much meaning outside of certain websites or internet based groups.  In the context to which you're referring (creating new words for broad social usage), such new terminology doesn't mean much when the public is unable to apply it.
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Some of this is going to take time.  Time for society to change their biased and incorrect philosophy on the matter of sex and gender.  As with races years ago..."Negroid" "Mongoloid"  These are ways that society used to classify races, often reflecting their prejudice.  (ie.  "Mongoloid" was long associated with down syndrome). 
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Negative stigma:  This is a big one.
I honestly think that these issues being included in the DSM does not help us.  Classifying a group as "mentally disordered" greatly stigmatizes them.  We can create all the new terms we like, but as long as those terms are associated with "mentally disordered," it's going to be difficult to create the fresh new meaning that you're looking for.
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Ok...enough with the naysaying and difficulties.  What can we do?
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If we take a page from different races, we would be looking to find a different wording that physically describes us or where we came from.  (Black, Negro, African-American etc)  If we do this, we're pretty much confined to "sex", "gender" and their synonyms or variations thereof.  As society often confuses sex and gender, if they even realize that there is a difference...along with the stigma that sexual topics carry in this society, this probably isn't the best way to coin a new term.
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If we take a page from gays, we would be looking to co-opt a word that relates positive imagery, but doesn't focus on the matter at hand within its verbiage.  (ie. gay used to only mean "happy, flambouant, etc 100 years ago.  Today, people generally don't use it that way without first considering its dual meaning.)
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For things that often can't be overtly seen like sexual preference or gender identity, this may be a better way to go.   But then the question is...what term to use?
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And here enters the difficulty of having such a broad community to define. 
"Transgender":  Whether it be about overt sexual markers (from clothing concerns and adornment to self image and body image) or about matters of mental/emotional expression, it's a vast and varied group of people to attempt to define within one word...while relating any meaning with that word other than "different from the norm."  I think Transgender works well for now in that rather broad capacity...though it's about as specific as saying "people" with all of the variation contained within that community.
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Part of the problem is how we currently look at the community, when we define the smaller Trans-sub-groups.  Often, we're defining based upon intent or motivation, which isn't something you can see...and, unlike homosexuality, the origin isn't seen as a constant within the sub-groups.  This makes creating acceptable words for the sub-groups more difficult.
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In short:
When someone says "I'm gay."  We don't ask..."how are you gay?"  It's understood: "Oh, so you like men.  Got it."
When someone says "I'm trans."  It's not so cut-and-dry.

I'm dressed as a man/woman (or something else society can see)...
...because I am one.
...because I was born with a birth defect.
...because it better reflects my gender.
...because I don't agree/identify with this society's rigid stereotypes.
...because I'm not a man/woman, but something else.
...because it makes me feel comfortable/relaxed.
...because it makes me feel horny.
...because its forbidden, and gives me a rush.
...because I think it's a lark/fun.
...because I'm a performer.
...etc...etc...etc...

To bring to quick summation, there really isn't any way to make a single word for all of trans individuals that will bring the clarity of meaning that is desired.  Unlike the relatively simplistic subjects that define "gay" or "black", it's just too varied of a group if we follow the current philosophy of delineating that group based upon intent/motivation.  (Perhaps we shouldn't?)
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So...lets look at a specific subgroup (my own): transsexual. 
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Personally, I don't care for the term.  Just as metrosexual has nothing to do with sexuality, transsexual is likewise misleading. 
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How to define the group though?
Some only want to be seen as men/women.  Any term at all, no matter how benign, would identify them as something else.
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Trans? = In between or Changing.  While perhaps accurate, "in-between" is something that many don't want to be seen as.  Perhaps more because of the lack of social acceptance, rather than the simple act of being.

Dual? = Both.  Accurate in some respects, but misleading in others...especially with the general ignorance about the relation of the subjects of sex and gender.
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I imagine that the term "gay" could have arose from watching 'flaming' effeminate gay men.  If you've ever had a gay friend like this, you know exactly what I'm talking about.  (Obviously it wouldn't work as well for all gay men, but I digress) I can't think of a word that would sum up a large amount of  transsexuals though, as even within that subgroup our experiences..and temperament...vary widely.  Some have arrived at a place that they are finally comfortable...while others are either just beginning, or on their way toward the same.  'Gender refugee' doesn't quite float my boat though. ;)
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Hrmm...still haven't gotten very far with coming up with a new name though.  It is a difficult quesiton. 
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Currently, I tend to prefer "Transgender" over transsexual or other similar terms.  Even if I have to explain what I mean, the term....to me...is not quite as misleading.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on March 27, 2010, 10:17:12 AM
duo animus Latin for two spirit.  Covers both us girls and the guys too

Yes, and everyone in between~

I am supposedly paranoid schizohprenic. But anway the voices I hear sometimes call me a Trans-section and a sheman. They are not my ideas. Sometimes I wish I could put a face to these voices I hear and then I could make up terminolgy for them. Darn voices I wish they would shut up.
May the Force be with you. Thats right they may be midichlorians speaking to me.

"Female".  Full stop, end of discussion nothing less and nothing more.  I never was "Trans" anything, never was and never will be, or as Sandy said, "Women".

Yes I realize, that in some of my posts I say "I changed my gender", why?  I do so for clarity in what I am trying to say to others and I do not use derogatory terms and I avoid using the "trans" prefixed words as much as possible.

I have always been a female and I always will be.

Kind regards
Sarah B

I just had a rant at my mum over a bank that changed it's name following getting caught being stupid.

I don't agree that changing your name is the right approach.
The foreigners that changed their names when they came to America did so to hide their past, hide where they came from.

I'm not going to hide my past, hide where I came from.

No title is gonna change that this man, me, came into his physical masculinity differently than his blood brothers. I can never undo the facts of the first 20 years of my life.
I choose to accept them, and live with them. (It may be hard sometimes, but I'd rather accept all that I am than anything else.)

I don't think that changing our "title" and distancing ourselves from those who were hated in the past and those that are hated now, is the solution really. I'd rather see people work to increase understanding and acceptance thought the spread of information.
Seems more likely to have a genuine effect.

Cause you know, as soon as people realize what the new term means, they'll just go "oh.. a ->-bleeped-<-" and the new term will then be just as useless as the old one.

When I had GRS 30 years ago, transsexual was the word used, I will always use that word.

Quote from: Miniar on March 28, 2010, 07:19:24 AM
I don't think that changing our "title" and distancing ourselves from those who were hated in the past and those that are hated now, is the solution really. I'd rather see people work to increase understanding and acceptance thought the spread of information.
Seems more likely to have a genuine effect.

Cause you know, as soon as people realize what the new term means, they'll just go "oh.. a ->-bleeped-<-" and the new term will then be just as useless as the old one.

+1

Additionally, from a 'I'm not a transsexual' standpoint I kind of fancy the current umbrella definition of 'Transgender', and so 'err' at the suggestion to turn it into 'Female/Male'. Awww.

Human being.

Quote from: MMarieN on March 28, 2010, 12:23:15 PM
Human being.

As in 'bean there, done it'?

I served my time in prison (gender, that is, about 46 years) and have been paroled for life! :police:

How about the term, "FREE" ?

The problem as I see it is this - at some point in your post transitional life (clarification) you will most likely run into someone or something that will out you or discover your birth gender.  At that point the person with that information will label you (if they already didn't know and already hadn't labeled you).  It's a fact of life.

The term we use could be something like HALCYON, calm and peaceful, tranquil.  So many of us talk about the inner peace we experience once we come to be ourselves.  And the word has positive imagery attached to it and if properly marketed we could create positive imagery of those who do not fall into the gender binary concept.

I'll take that over any of the terminology used today.

I don't see anything wrong with the words "transgender" and "transsexual." They are usually accurate: transcending culturally-imposed, sex-determined binary gender, in the first case, and transitioning or transforming one's physical sex in the second.

I've not had any experiences that would lead me to believe that "transgender" is a bad word that must be discarded. Certainly, "transsexual" has been stigmatized, but unlike other words - "he-she" and "->-bleeped-<-" come to mind - it's usually accurate, embraced by most of the people it describes, and respects the distinction between psychological gender and physical sex. In this sense, "transsexual" just refers to people who transform their bodies and physical presentation for gender reasons: taking hormones and hormone blockers, getting top surgery and genital surgery, undergoing electrolysis, et cetera.

Certainly, "transsexual" has an image problem. It tends to conjure up a trivializing, condescending and negative image of MtFs, which harms FtMs and genderqueer/gender-variant folks as well, simply by ignoring that they exist. It also tends to be extremely gender-binary, and the concept of "transsexuality" can enforce gender-binariness on trans people (I tend not to use it on myself for this reason). However, the solution to this is wider education, and visibility for trans people who do not fit the stereotype.

I've never seen any problem with "transgender," though, or heard it used in a pejorative way.

When I found out about the word "transsexual" from an article I was reading over 31 years ago.  I did not like the term then and I detest the term now.

The article from a 'mens' magazine showed a picture (drawings of different stages) of a boy/male changing into a girl/female.  That article and that article alone told me that I was a girl/female.

The terms "HALCYON, calm and peaceful, tranquil" to describe us is ridiculous, because any "sentient human being" can have  those labels.

Kind regards
Sarah B

I think if the whole brain intersexed thing becomes accepted as the 'cause' there could be some good names to fall out of that for the 'condition' rather than who we are.

But then maybe there is a danger I might become a man with an intersexed brain condition rather than the woman with an intersexed body condition.

We could go with a word that does not in itself describe the condition, just names it assomething.

Call it 'The Nicki' lol. I'm a woman with The Nicki.

(Not that I am advocating a new word, just adding to the mix)

I think to Julie's point, it would be nice to come up with a term akin to 'gay'. It should be a positive type of expression.

I understand and appreciate the halcyon term, though I was digging deep into the online thesaurus around the concepts of:

*one who has journeyed, or gone on a passage or returned to a homeland
*a person who has found completion, integration and peace
*one who has conquered or overcome, a winner
*a person whose condition is one of matching body, mind & soul

The best thing, I think of course, it to live our lives with dignity-showing others 'in the norm' that we are healthy, interesting, talented, contributors to society. Our change should be viewed with respect, and not anymore controversial than one who has emigrated from another place or one who has changed their philosophy or religion.

Braintersex. :P

Transbrain

Kind regards
Sarah B

Yes the Indians had it right calling us TWO SPIRITS

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on March 28, 2010, 05:09:10 PM
Yes the Indians had it right calling us TWO SPIRITS

Perhaps, for those of you who are androgyne/bigendered or identify as two-spirits. For those of us who don't in any way identify with our birth sex/gender, though, it doesn't work.

I know I personally have an extremely uncomfortable relationship with women/femaleness because there just isn't a female part of me, no matter what everyone else sees. There's an effeminate side to my personality, but that's different.

As far as terms: I just use "trans." People can hear "transsexual" or "transgender" or whatever term "trans" evokes, and that's fine, but I don't care to specify, or to divide myself from other people with trans* experiences. I don't need a perfect word that describes me precisely and in detail; as long as the word isn't giving false impressions (like two-spirit) it works just fine. I figure if someone's really interested in the specifics of my particular gender situation, they're going to give me more than one word to describe myself.

Quote from: kyril on March 28, 2010, 05:34:23 PM
Perhaps, for those of you who are androgyne/bigendered or identify as two-spirits. For those of us who don't in any way identify with our birth sex/gender, though, it doesn't work.

I know I personally have an extremely uncomfortable relationship with women/femaleness because there just isn't a female part of me, no matter what everyone else sees. There's an effeminate side to my personality, but that's different.

As far as terms: I just use "trans." People can hear "transsexual" or "transgender" or whatever term "trans" evokes, and that's fine, but I don't care to specify, or to divide myself from other people with trans* experiences. I don't need a perfect word that describes me precisely and in detail; as long as the word isn't giving false impressions (like two-spirit) it works just fine. I figure if someone's really interested in the specifics of my particular gender situation, they're going to give me more than one word to describe myself.

Opps i didn't mean to be saying we all have to be seen as two spirits and i know how you feel, i also felt like you 5 or so years ago..   :embarrassed:

Quote from: kyril on March 28, 2010, 05:34:23 PM
as long as the word isn't giving false impressions (like two-spirit) it works just fine.

?

Quote from: ativan on March 28, 2010, 08:36:51 PM
?

I mean that as applied to me (in other words, I don't think two-spirit works as a general term because it leaves out a lot of trans* people, including myself). Two-spirit obviously works fine as a specific term for the people it describes.

I was pretty sure thats what you meant.....
I wasn't sure if Two spirit was wrong, works for me. And I see your point completely.
Thank you

I maintain that I am a woman, with a transsexual condition.  Just like I could be a woman with a diabetic condition.  Or a woman with a broken arm.  Or a woman with a good heartbeat.

One describes a condition of my mind, while the other describes a condition of my body.

However, whether we use "halcyon" or "cinnamon toast", unless the public buys into it, it really won't go anywhere.  Though while I do kind of like halcyon, it implies to me that it describes those of us who have completed transition.  There are those of us who are in the midst of coming to themselves or have stalled in transition that are anything but tranquil.  We have all been there!

-Sandy

Sadly, once we venture out into the world, it doesn't matter what any one of us individually wants to be called or how we see ourselves.  The world will see you as it deems fit and call you what it wants.  And the labels it attaches to people it sees as different sometimes carry a stigma.

Inside our community, we will get a lot more acceptance than outside it.  But there's a faction within the gay and lesbian community who views TGs negatively.  And once you venture out into that great big world, the numbers increase dramatically.

Like it or not, transgender, transsexual, crossdresser, intersex, androgyne, genderqueer and every other terminology we use has a negative stigma attached to it.  And once your birth gender is known, that stigma will be attached to you and there's little you can do about it.  It could be an employer, your local politician, a religious leader or your neighbor, and when that stigma is attached to you, it could result in an having adverse effect on your life.  Too many of that have experienced that first hand.

Look at the resistance there's been against same sex marriage, DADT, and ENDA.  That's because of the negative stigma.  And the TG stigma is so bad ENDA proponents initially wanted to leave it out of the bill because they feared TG would kill it.  And they're supposed to be our friends!

When the opponents of same sex marriage, DADT and ENDA speak, they use the term "homosexual agenda", not "gay agenda".  They like "homosexual" because it has a more negative stigma and, for their followers, creates a higher level of fear.  The gay community recognized the negative stigma was not going away anytime soon so they came up with the term gay to identify people who were sexually attracted to those of their own gender.  And, as far as lessening the stigma, it worked.

"Gay" had nothing to do with same sex attraction.  The word was chosen because it meant happy and carefree.  They were sending a message, "We're not flawed, we're not miserable, we don't want to be changed, we're happy being just the way we are."  And most people got it.  Along with that movement came pride.  I don't ever remember hearing "Homo Pride" or "Homo Pride Parade" back before the term gay was used.  But we see "Gay Pride" a lot today and now, practically every big city has a Gay Pride Parade.

And that's why I feel we need to find a word that has nothing to do with gender, changing or sex.  The word simply has to send the message we are happy with who we are, at peace with who we are and we don't want to be changed or fixed.  The reason I like the word halcyon is because it conjures up images of peaceful, happiness, content, serene, non-violent, non-aggressive and it's not a commonly used word that wouldn't get as much resistance as more commonly words would.  It is a lot like "gay" in those respects.

Along the way we can educate those who will listen that the gender binary is a myth, it's a gender spectrum, and it's harmless.  It is simply a fact of life.  We can let them know sex isn't why we are who we are.  It's all in the marketing.

Sure, there will be those who will resist, say it's stupid, etc.  I'm sure there were plenty, both within and without the gay community who reacted that way.   Change always brings about resistance.  But as long as there's perseverance and a positive marketing campaign, it will eventually take hold.

The question is, "Is there enough of us out there who have what it takes to make it happen?"

I love the way you explain your thoughs here Julie. Maybe we should just call ourselves "HAPPY" because we are much happier doing what we do than being told we should be happy the way we are / were.

EX:
Happy people tend to go through some form of gender identity reversals.

We happy people have come to realize that we are strong people.

There are a lot of happy people living true to their selves.

Everyone has a variation in them that relates to them being described scientifically as a happy person.


WERE NOT GAY WERE HAPPY!! :laugh:

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 29, 2010, 10:38:21 AM
Sadly, once we venture out into the world, it doesn't matter what any one of us individually wants to be called or how we see ourselves.  The world will see you as it deems fit and call you what it wants.  And the labels it attaches to people it sees as different sometimes carry a stigma.

Inside our community, we will get a lot more acceptance than outside it.  But there's a faction within the gay and lesbian community who views TGs negatively.  And once you venture out into that great big world, the numbers increase dramatically.

Like it or not, transgender, transsexual, crossdresser, intersex, androgyne, genderqueer and every other terminology we use has a negative stigma attached to it.  And once your birth gender is known, that stigma will be attached to you and there's little you can do about it.  It could be an employer, your local politician, a religious leader or your neighbor, and when that stigma is attached to you, it could result in an having adverse effect on your life.  Too many of that have experienced that first hand.

Look at the resistance there's been against same sex marriage, DADT, and ENDA.  That's because of the negative stigma.  And the TG stigma is so bad ENDA proponents initially wanted to leave it out of the bill because they feared TG would kill it.  And they're supposed to be our friends!

When the opponents of same sex marriage, DADT and ENDA speak, they use the term "homosexual agenda", not "gay agenda".  They like "homosexual" because it has a more negative stigma and, for their followers, creates a higher level of fear.  The gay community recognized the negative stigma was not going away anytime soon so they came up with the term gay to identify people who were sexually attracted to those of their own gender.  And, as far as lessening the stigma, it worked.

"Gay" had nothing to do with same sex attraction.  The word was chosen because it meant happy and carefree.  They were sending a message, "We're not flawed, we're not miserable, we don't want to be changed, we're happy being just the way we are."  And most people got it.  Along with that movement came pride.  I don't ever remember hearing "Homo Pride" or "Homo Pride Parade" back before the term gay was used.  But we see "Gay Pride" a lot today and now, practically every big city has a Gay Pride Parade.

And that's why I feel we need to find a word that has nothing to do with gender, changing or sex.  The word simply has to send the message we are happy with who we are, at peace with who we are and we don't want to be changed or fixed.  The reason I like the word halcyon is because it conjures up images of peaceful, happiness, content, serene, non-violent, non-aggressive and it's not a commonly used word that wouldn't get as much resistance as more commonly words would.  It is a lot like "gay" in those respects.

Along the way we can educate those who will listen that the gender binary is a myth, it's a gender spectrum, and it's harmless.  It is simply a fact of life.  We can let them know sex isn't why we are who we are.  It's all in the marketing.

Sure, there will be those who will resist, say it's stupid, etc.  I'm sure there were plenty, both within and without the gay community who reacted that way.   Change always brings about resistance.  But as long as there's perseverance and a positive marketing campaign, it will eventually take hold.

The question is, "Is there enough of us out there who have what it takes to make it happen?"

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on March 29, 2010, 11:26:32 AM
WERE NOT GAY WERE HAPPY!! :laugh:

Maybe we're GAPPY!  8) "as in filling the gender gap, happily"

How about this...
Butterflies

It is a symbol adopted by the trans comunity long ago. People have positive asociation with butterflies.

(I know kinda gay...)

Well, this gay boy approves of butterflies  :icon_cute:

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on March 29, 2010, 11:26:32 AM
Maybe we should just call ourselves "HAPPY" because we are much happier doing what we do than being told we should be happy the way we are / were.

Oh, dear. Not long ago, someone suggested a new term for atheists/skeptics: bright.

So now I'm bright, happy, and gay.

Somebody shoot me. :o

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Post Merge: March 29, 2010, 03:42:28 PM

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Quote from: cynthialee on March 29, 2010, 02:25:49 PM
How about this...
Butterflies

It is a symbol adopted by the trans comunity long ago. People have positive asociation with butterflies.

(I know kinda gay...)

I've always liked the chrysalis as a metaphor for transition, but with all of the reading I've done, I never knew that trans people had adopted butterflies as a symbol. Do you know where I can read up on this? It's cool.

I don't know where it came from, but it does seem to be in common usage.

So much so that Dr McGinn calls he clinic the Papilion Gender Wellness center.  And were I to get a tattoo, I would definitely opt for a butterfly.

-Sandy

Thats funny and does work for me LOL

Quote from: juliekins on March 29, 2010, 02:04:50 PM

Maybe we're GAPPY!  8) "as in filling the gender gap, happily"

I don't like any of our labels, and male to female transsexual is a gd mouthful.  I would really love it if we could find a cute simplified term.  I suppose I can tolerate how some of the current terms sound abbreviated or combined- like TS woman or transwoman.  Maybe that would be the simplest way to go.  Although, etymologically speaking, post transition, I don't believe trans-[anything] works.

I dunno, I just don't think there will ever be a label I'll be satisfied with, much less one that EVERYBODY will be satisfied with.  Honestly, if somebody can actually find a term that satisfies all of us, they really should consider using their genius in more constructive ways, like curing cancer or something.

Like others, I think I just prefer the term "woman."

Having read the other posts after mine, I agree with 'woman' for myself.  As for the guys how about 'man'.

I think that society should give up the labels, they would n't like having another label than 'man' or 'woman'.

Maybe they're jealous of us because we are happy. We don't need them to tell us what we need to make us happy.

Gennee

:)

Quote from: Janet Lynn on March 29, 2010, 04:31:13 PM
Having read the other posts after mine, I agree with 'woman' for myself.  As for the guys how about 'man'.

Still a boy here, working on some day becoming a man.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on March 29, 2010, 04:31:13 PM
Having read the other posts after mine, I agree with 'woman' for myself.  As for the guys how about 'man'.

I think that society should give up the labels, they would n't like having another label than 'man' or 'woman'.

We'd be hard pressed to get the mainstream to go along with that, at least not now.  The long range plans would be just that but for now I think we'd have more success moving a step or two away from the stigma riddled terms we now use.

As for finding the perfect term, no one term will be considered perfect by all, not ever.  But, just like "gay", you take a term and create positive imagery around it.  In time most will adapt and even embrace it.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on March 29, 2010, 04:31:13 PM
Having read the other posts after mine, I agree with 'woman' for myself.  As for the guys how about 'man'.

I think that society should give up the labels, they would n't like having another label than 'man' or 'woman'.

and the genderfluid, androgynous, bi-gendered, and so on?

I am pretty much okay with transsexual and even prefer that over transgender. Transgender is too broad of a term to adequately describe me. The other day I saw an article somewhere that referred to a woman as a post-op transgender. Talk about confusing people! What the hell does post-op transgender mean? :)

Quote from: Miniar on March 29, 2010, 08:11:33 PM
and the genderfluid, androgynous, bi-gendered, and so on?

Sandwich
How many kinds are there?  Theres specialty, homemade, traditional, made up, Dagwood, the usual, the unusual, national, international, simple, plain, toasted; made with sliced bread, buns, w/out bread of any kind.......what was the other one?
And the discussion continues......

Personally, I think Julie Marie is on the right track with something like "Halcyon." 
.
Now...I'm not particularly enamored of that term specifically, it definitely needs to sound a bit less bookish (or perhaps a bit less Star-Trekish..."The Halcyon people from Numera Prime"  ;)  )...but I like the direction she's taken.  Positive meaning, good thought behind it...not a bad first pitch.  Not bad at all.
.
"So now I'm bright, happy, and gay."
Heh.  Arch...that is just too funny.  :)

Quote from: Kay on March 29, 2010, 10:46:20 PM
(or perhaps a bit less Star-Trekish..."The Halcyon people from Numera Prime"  ;)  ).
...
"So now I'm bright, happy, and gay."
Heh.  Arch...that is just too funny.  :)

Sorry, Kay, but yours beat mine all to heck and back. I'm still laughing, which is pretty scary because my voice still breaks when I laugh. I sound not unlike one of those Disney hyenas.

Thank you Janet Lynn, Thank YOU.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on March 29, 2010, 04:31:13 PM
Having read the other posts after mine, I agree with 'woman' for myself.  As for the guys how about 'man'.

I think that society should give up the labels, they would n't like having another label than 'man' or 'woman'.

After thinking about this for best part of a day, this morning I had the same thought just like Janet has.  It does not matter what name or label you come up with its just another 'bloody' label.  Label and names are used to group people.  Northern Jane said it best "Human beings are social creatures and sooner or later everybody wants some kind of connection with others of a similar experience".  However the main group name or label that I wish to associate with first and foremost is Yes you guessed it FEMALE.

I will discuss, offer my experiences or suggest my advice to other people who, for the want of a better way of saying it "have a medical condition".  Sandy said something similar and I will rephrase it "I am a woman with a diabetic condition, a woman with a broken arm or even a woman with [insert a medical condition].

I belong with the group called females, that is what I want to be labeled as, nothing less and nothing more, I do not want any other tag, label or name whatsoever.

Kind regards
Sarah B

Halcyon is not a word I would support.
I'm not sure how to pronounce it and it just seems too "sci-fi" sounding for my tastes.

Quote from: Miniar on March 30, 2010, 09:18:00 AM
Halcyon is not a word I would support.
I'm not sure how to pronounce it and it just seems too "sci-fi" sounding for my tastes.

I agree with this statement.

Quote from: Sarah B on March 30, 2010, 02:20:07 AMIt does not matter what name or label you come up with its just another 'bloody' label.

Would it matter if your employer labeled you and then fired you?  Would it matter if your family labeled you and walked out of your life?  Would it matter if people voting on your rights labeled you and denied you of the same rights as everyone else?

The idea isn't to create a new label, it's to detach ourselves from negative labels and the only way to do that in a society that depends on labels is to come up with new, less stigmatized terminology

Quote from: Miniar on March 30, 2010, 09:18:00 AMHalcyon is not a word I would support.
I'm not sure how to pronounce it and it just seems too "sci-fi" sounding for my tastes.

The exact word is unimportant so long as it conveys positive imagery.  When gay was chosen, it seemed to me a very outdated word (it was for my generation) and just not right.  I doubt today anyone will say that.   

No matter what word would be chosen, how it relates to the gender continuum, TG, etc would, in time, be defined and relayed to the general public.  The primary purpose is to move away from any terminology to which the general public has attached negative stigmas.

To me, finding a word that conveys peaceful, content, serene, calm, happy (even euphoric) would be the focus.  Mainstream has to know we're okay with ourselves.  Halcyon satisfies that criteria.  If possible, it should also be something simple.  Halcyon fails there.  But it can't be too common a word and it probably shouldn't be something made up.  Halcyon has fallen out of use over the years so younger people might think it sounds funny.  To me, it is a word used often in beautiful poetry.  The first one I was introduced to was Walt Whitman's Those Halcyon Days

Personally, I would stay away from anything that had a direct reference to GID, sex or changing genders.  The general public will immediately attach all those stigmas we are trying to escape.

So, any more word nominations?

The problem I see with the term "transsexual" is that the terms "heterosexual" and "homosexual" are in common usage to describe the gender one is attracted to. Sexual attraction has nothing to do with gender identity, thus the term "transsexual" inappropriately throws them in with the other two terms. "Transgender" more clearly describes a situation in which one seeks to go over to the other gender without confusion about sexual orientation.

Lyric

I knew it sounded iffy to me for a reason (by the by)
Wikipedia says;
- Halcyon (Stargate Atlantis novel), a novel by James Swallow
- Halcyon, the fictional capital city of the Thran civilization in the Magic: The Gathering universe
- Halcyon (role-playing game), an indie role-playing game
- Halcyon (console), a video-game console

I'd suggest something of mythological origin that resembles the phoenix mythology, but I can't think of anything.

Quote from: Dana Lane on March 29, 2010, 08:25:51 PM
I am pretty much okay with transsexual and even prefer that over transgender. Transgender is too broad of a term to adequately describe me. The other day I saw an article somewhere that referred to a woman as a post-op transgender. Talk about confusing people! What the hell does post-op transgender mean? :)

The main problem I have with "post-op transgender" is the "post-op" part. Frankly, why the hell is it anyone's business what "op" I might or might not have had? And it focuses attention on what's between my legs, which is really not something I want people speculating about. If they must, I'd rather they speculate about what's between my ears.

I want a broad, even vague term. I like "trans." To me, it's an advantage that it doesn't say much. It's my hope that it puts the focus on everything else about me.

Consider "woman": there are approximately 3.4 billion woman on the planet. But almost a billion are under the age of 13 -- hardly what you'd call "real women"! Should we specify "3.4 billion woman, but only about 2.5 billion post-menarche women"? I think that would be exceedingly dumb. You know what I mean when I say "3.4 billion women" -- it's simply half the world population.

The point is, specificity is necessary only when you're talking about something very specific; otherwise it's a red herring. I don't think "black" is a necessary modifier for "woman" when I'm talking about a black woman, unless race is the topic at hand (as in this sentence); similarly, I don't think "trans" or anything like it is a necessary modifier for "woman" when talking about me, unless non-normative gender experience or history is the topic at hand. And I don't think "post-op," "pre-op," or "non-op" are ever useful, except in a hospital setting. The only time outside a hospital setting when my surgical history is relevant is when I'm discussing surgery. And then, I'll specify what surgery I'm talking about.

But whatever you do, please don't call me a "transwoman." I really hate that. When I see it as one word like that, it seems to imply I'm something other than a woman, a "pseudowoman." No: I'm a woman, and I'm trans: I'm a trans woman.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on March 30, 2010, 11:23:13 AM
The main problem I have with "post-op transgender" is the "post-op" part. Frankly, why the hell is it anyone's business what "op" I might or might not have had?

I'm post op... post eye surgery op.  :angel:

Quote from: Alyssa M. on March 30, 2010, 11:23:13 AM
But whatever you do, please don't call me a "transwoman." I really hate that. When I see it as one word like that, it seems to imply I'm something other than a woman, a "pseudowoman." No: I'm a woman, and I'm trans: I'm a trans woman.

I hear 'ya, that's why almost everything in the wiki was changed to what I called the "trans_space_person agenda". that is, using the term trans to describe people in the state of transition, and not some sort of "special" class of person due to medical or legal issue of gender identity.

I suppose there could be a better way of describing people in transition, but for now i suppose trans <whatever> is good enough for now since it avoids the kneejerk reactions to the words sex and gender.

There's another word that's been used here that means peaceful and tranquil, it's... tranquil! It even has the "tran" part for the purists. "Oh it's just awful about all those tranquils pushing their tranquil agenda..." just doesn't have the same bite, does it? And it has the added benefit of having the initial "T", so "LGBT" wouldn't even have to be changed! ;)

Personally I think finding a less stigmatic word is a noble idea, but I still prefer simply "woman" for myself. And I'm pretty much a "One Spirit" kind of girl...

I know I am female. But for the rest of my  life in certain circumstances I will be trans. Dr. visits, and sex come to mind imediatly. I imagine it must come up other places I am not thinking of. So no matter what there will always be a label needed at some point.

How about just simply; 'Trans.'

Hi Miniar

Another one for the list and an absolute classic.

The Halcyon Drift (Hooded Swan, series) by Brian Stableford

Kind regards
Sarah B

Quote from: FairyGirl on March 30, 2010, 12:29:11 PM
There's another word that's been used here that means peaceful and tranquil, it's... tranquil! It even has the "tran" part for the purists. "Oh it's just awful about all those tranquils pushing their tranquil agenda..." just doesn't have the same bite, does it? And it has the added benefit of having the initial "T", so "LGBT" wouldn't even have to be changed! ;)

Lol, prolly my favorite so far.

But I'm with Alyssa, "trans" is about as simple as you get.  If you want to specify sex, just tack it on the end, much like gay man, etc.  So much easier than male-to-female blah blah blah.  For goodness sakes, when you come up with a label for something you have to consider peoples' chipmunk-like attention spans.  A label shouldn't sound like a darned run-on sentence.

I think once transition is finished, and you've traversed sexes, then trans doesn't much apply, but honestly I won't be a fan of any labels other than woman when I reach that point anyway.  Um, not that I'm a fan of them now either lol.

PS- I don't feel transgender describes me in the least.  My gender has always been static, and I'm certainly not in the process of crossing from one gender to the other.  Between the ears I've always been a girl.  I suppose for some transgender would be at least technically accurate, but not me.

Regarding the word "trans"... Does it have any negative stigmas attached to it?

Quote from: FairyGirl on March 30, 2010, 12:29:11 PM
There's another word that's been used here that means peaceful and tranquil, it's... tranquil! It even has the "tran" part for the purists. "Oh it's just awful about all those tranquils pushing their tranquil agenda..." just doesn't have the same bite, does it? And it has the added benefit of having the initial "T", so "LGBT" wouldn't even have to be changed! ;)

You have some great points.  I guess, having used the word in my earlier posts might indicate I need to look under my nose next time.  :eusa_doh:

And I really like the term "tranquil agenda"!  I'd love to hear the phobes use that in a negative campaign against us.  :D

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 30, 2010, 06:34:11 PM

And I really like the term "tranquil agenda"!  I'd love to hear the phobes use that in a negative campaign against us.  :D

Yeah, "tranquil agenda" does have a great ring to it.

So, how did the last set (or the one before that) work out for us?  Yup.

It's not the words, words are just a collection of letters in a particular order.  It's how people perceive the words, what they come to mean, that matters.  Granted working on that is harder than inventing a new vocabulary, but it does produce real change.

Personally, I prefer to have no word.
Y'all can choose whatever word you like though.

Quote from: tekla on March 30, 2010, 06:47:35 PM
So, how did the last set (or the one before that) work out for us?  Yup.

It's not the words, words are just a collection of letters in a particular order.  It's how people perceive the words, what they come to mean, that matters.  Granted working on that is harder than inventing a new vocabulary, but it does produce real change.

^^^This.
Granted, people will avoid the words they don't like anyway. Still, there's no substitute for real change.

Language is what we do. There's no "right" answer, but each culture and each generation creates a different semantic environment for people to live in. This happens in every field of thought and human experience -- politics, music, sex, religion (or lack thereof), every academic field -- especially mathematical ones -- and more. So, no, it isn't of earth-shattering importance, but it is something that naturally happens, and it's best when it happens in a comparatively civil and positive manner, like this thread, rather than some of the slugfests that have happened around here before.

Hi Julie Marie

You said:

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 30, 2010, 10:53:59 AM
Would it matter if your employer labeled you and then fired you?  Would it matter if your family labeled you and walked out of your life?  Would it matter if people voting on your rights labeled you and denied you of the same rights as everyone else?

These three questions are red herrings in this debate.  Your topic "A New Term for Transgender - Any Ideas?" requires only new labels, not consequences of those labels.

People will always will have labels attached to them and the way other people say those labels or terms with other words or emphasis can and do imply negative connotations.

Kind regards
Sarah B

Since the term "gay" has been mentioned here.
The thing is, it's not used at all in my country. We use "samkynhneigður" (homosexual) or hommi/lesbía (self explanatory), and there's extremely little anti-gay sentiment over here.
Whereas, Gay is used over in the US a lot, and anti-gay sentiments are, well, "common" doesn't quite cover it.

Changing to the term Gay doesn't seem, as far as I can tell, to have stopped the abuse at all.

I don't believe a label update really will affect change either, but if I'm going to be labeled, I'd prefer one that didn't make me shudder and moreover was at least easy to say.  I don't think "trans" has any negative connotation to it, at least not any more than whatever new label we might take on would inherit.  All it means is to cross, basically.  Another thing I like about it is that it unifies all the different subcategories, which I think is good because, while there are differences in all of our experiences, we are all dealing with something very similar.

I don't believe that updating terms was a major factor in bringing the modest level of acceptance gays now enjoy, either.  For them, this tolerance was obtained through decades of visible activism, which eventually opened the door for certain pop culture phenomena like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, which brought gays into mainstream living rooms, where most people finally realized that gay people were just people after all.  Fear of the unknown is usually behind hatred and discrimination.

Honestly though, I just can't see our community making big dents in society like that, simply because of how few trans activists exist.  The reasons are many, not the least of which is that even under the biggest umbrella we're such a tiny minority.  Also, most transpeeps, especially the least scary among us (from mainstream peeps perspective), would very much prefer to blend seamlessly into conventional society- something not possible for an openly gay person, i.e. a passable trans woman can live openly as a female without overtly upsetting conventions.  And I don't feel there is anything wrong with that either, in fact I'm sure that's the route I'll go if I can pull it off- being the wallflower that I am :icon_flower:.

Kay as sort of nailed the problem -- while the number of known TGs is relatively small compared to G, L, and B, it actually covers many distinct groups of people.  The definition of TG is a reflection more of what one is not (gender is not congruent with the body) rather than what one is.  A more positive term is desirable, but there are multiple distinct affirmations to cover, and this seems to necessitate having many terms.

I'm somewhat inclined to support the idea of people simply being women/men/androgyne/whatever.  If you happen to be transsexual, that can offer a descriptive detail (and in unpleasant company, you may be forced to provide one), but male/female/androgyne/whatever remains the primary.  I don't know if "transsexual woman" is really satisfactory for a MtF, but the last word emphasizes what you want out there, and you can revert to this term when "woman" does not please your audience (without having to include "man" or "male" in it).

Modifiers (may use none or multiple): Transsexual, transgender(ed), trans-, intersexed, crossdressing, androgynous, gay, bisexual, straight, pansexual, asexual, etc...

Base words: Woman, man, androgyne, two-spirit, etc...

Syntax: [Modifier, Modifier, ...] [Base Word]
Example: Androgynous straight man

Maybe it's the different location and all... but does "transgender" really have that much of a negative stigma? I mean, enough of one that people are more biased against the word itself than the group they are refering to with it?

No, it's not 100% accurate from our expert perspective - but it's not deliberately offensive, it's not sexual, and it's not painting us as deviants or otherwise insane. I think we could do a lot worse.

Like others here, I also don't think the word "transgender" accurately describes my situation. However, when "Joe Bloggs The Government Paperwork Jockey" wants to know why my title is Mr, I look like a man, but my birth cert says "female", it's a handy 3 second explanation that gets enough of my point across for him to be satisfied without me having to tell him my life story.

To people I know and care about, I can always just explain my situation without using any "trans" or "GLBT" political terms at all.

I don't think terms matter all that much beyond diagnostics, and finding other people sharing similar experiances (in the community) - and we have many more refined terms for that sort of thing.

The main people that hurl hatred at us are rightwing control freaks, and they'd still hate us regardless of what we were called. Hell, they still say gay like it's a bad thing! :laugh:

Quote from: Kaelin on April 01, 2010, 05:38:29 AM
The definition of TG is a reflection more of what one is not (gender is not congruent with the body) rather than what one is.

This may be what transgender has come to mean, but the prefix "trans" has very little to do with congruence.  It means across, through, between... things like that.  Things which (for me) don't apply to my gender, which is and always will be fixed, and that is why I have always felt like that word is often a misnomer in the way it is used.

I may be crossing into a new gender role that fits my gender better, but I don't want to be called a transgenderrole, do you?

There are other nitpicky problems with the word, but I'll spare you those :).

I just shorten it to Trans and say trans people.  That way, I'm being respectful of both transsexual and transgender people, without distinguishing them (unless it's necessary).

One thing that irks me a little, I think I'm alone in this though, is transman/transwoman.  I don't really have a beef with it, but I think there's too much emphasis on the trans and not enough emphasis on the man.

Transman sounds sort of like Trans Am, which is fairly macho as far as cars go.  I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing (unless you see people using these cars to... compensate for something).

When I was pre-operative & transitioning, I used to refer to myself as a -woman in transition- but now that I'm post-operative & done with transition, I'm only a WOMAN, GIRL, and FEMALE (take your pick), nothing else.

Why go through all the pain and agony of laser, electrolysis, FFS GRS, SRS, BA, therapy, depression, with the possible loss of friends and family, financial loss and loneliness.

You do most of all the above to become a female no less and you still want to be called 'trans' or whatever label you like after all of that?

I have read all the comments and there is a strong indication that nearly everyone identifies as a female.  That is the way it should be.  The only time we need to refer to our past is in the medical sense.  Everything else should be referred to the gender that we identify with.

Why do we have to display anything about ourselves?  Just live your life the way you want to live your life.  Who cares what anyone else thinks so long as you are happy with the decision you have made in the end.

Sarah B
Kind Regards

I, of course, can't speak for other people & they can identify themselves as a pot of tea for all I care.  But speaking for myself, I'll be damned if I ever call myself trans-anything after having transitioned fully.  I'm female & that's all.

I was trans for a long whilst, and I'm quite tired of it.  If there comes a time when I've got to reveal my medical history, I'll just say that I'm a woman with a transsexual past.  If people don't like it, it's their problem not mine.

Ideally, at least from this girl's opinion, the term should encompass the entire gender continuum, that is, everyone who doesn't fit into the gender binary.  That's a lot of people.  And by making it so encompassing, you can make it more acceptable.

What we know as a transgender person today would just be another person within the gender continuum.  Also included in that would be the straight effeminate man or the tomboy girl.  This would break down the gender binary concept and help open people's minds to the fact that gender binary is really a myth.

As you know, the only term and label I will ever use in or put up with is Female.  I suppose thinking about this labeling issue probably gives me one of the reasons why I never was really involved with the 'community' before.

Over 21 years ago I started to change my gender, and believe you me I was totally ignorant in relation to what I was undertaking, operation, hormones the community, even the fact 'I did not know then 'I was a female' at that time.

In the begining I mixed with the community and even then I knew instinctively I hated the terms 'trans...', that were being used liberally.  So I avoided the community, for several reasons, one because my life could have been exposed, I am a very private person and with those terms and labels beiing used around me, I would not have been able to work effectively or productively (a result of being exposed) and on several ocassions at the time I heard that once the operation was completed some girls just wanted to go out into the suburbs and become housewives.  When I heard that, I knew what I wanted with all my heart and as they say, the rest is history.

As for my thoughts on gender binary issues, well this is a much bigger can of worms than the 'trans' label issue we are currently discussing, for example do we get rid of gender identificatin at birth, what happens with the structure of our language and of course we must never foget those in favor of and those against changing the gender binary, the biggest problem in both these issues.

Kindest regards
Sarah B

Quote from: Julie Marie on April 02, 2010, 03:08:04 PM
Ideally, at least from this girl's opinion, the term should encompass the entire gender continuum, that is, everyone who doesn't fit into the gender binary.  That's a lot of people.  And by making it so encompassing, you can make it more acceptable.

What we know as a transgender person today would just be another person within the gender continuum.  Also included in that would be the straight effeminate man or the tomboy girl.  This would break down the gender binary concept and help open people's minds to the fact that gender binary is really a myth.

Well, then the term you're looking for is "not a stereotype"?

Unique.

Tranette or tranetta!  ;D

Transista - give it that left-wing/fashionista edge?

Quote from: tekla on April 03, 2010, 03:11:24 AM
Transista - give it that left-wing/fashionista edge?

Let's be equitable here...

Transista  for the mtf's

Transbro for the ftm.

I'm still geeky enough to get a bit of a chuckle out of the term transistor.

But if I called my self a transistor, I'm sure someone will identify as a capacitor, and then things start getting silly...

-Sandy

Quote from: Miniar on April 02, 2010, 04:49:31 PM
Well, then the term you're looking for is "not a stereotype"?

If you think about it, how many people that you know well are totally male or totally female?  No pretense, no hangups (like overly macho or girly), totally at ease with society's gender stereotype?  If a new term was created to include every person who isn't totally comfortable fitting in today's societal gender stereotype, eventually that stereotype would be replaced with a new one, and it would step outside the accepted gender binary rules.

We have to think outside the box, the trans box that is.  If it has trans in it, only those who are comfortable with being labeled trans will accept it.  Hell, there are gays and lesbians who totally cross the gender lines who run from the trans label!  We may be comfortable with it but that's partly because it's better then she-male, freak or pervert.

People who cross gender lines but have never been labeled trans want nothing to do with that term.  So trans-anything is out.

Quote from: Julie Marie on April 03, 2010, 08:20:14 AM
If you think about it, how many people that you know well are totally male or totally female?

Zero.

I can't think of any person I know that is in no way at all outside the stereotype.
So it seems you want a term so broad in it's umbrella meaning that it refers to the whole human race.
Why not use "human" then?

Quote from: Sandy on April 03, 2010, 07:50:28 AM
Let's be equitable here...

Transista  for the mtf's

Transbro for the ftm.

I'm still geeky enough to get a bit of a chuckle out of the term transistor.

But if I called my self a transistor, I'm sure someone will identify as a capacitor, and then things start getting silly...

-Sandy

Nah, I'm a transformer :)

Oooh, ooh, can I be a semiconductor? 01001110101010

Only if I can 'transmit' those numbers.

Kind regards
Sarah B

Quote from: PanoramaIsland on April 03, 2010, 12:14:34 PM
Oooh, ooh, can I be a semiconductor? 01001110101010

As they say in computers, "It's all just ones and zeros..."  BTW 01001110101010 = 13aa (hex) 19170 (dec)

And back on to the main topic, it does not matter what term we come up with.  As long as society is entrenched in the idea of a gender binary, there will be no acceptance of those who are not.

The term gay, or black, or Hispanic, did nothing for society except provide a consistent label by which those of that group can be identified that was non pejorative.  We can do the same (and to my mind that is what the term transgender is turning into), but I don't think it will have any real impact on society to cause it to think outside of the gender norm.

We here know that gender is a spectrum, not a binary.  And that it can be fluid not solid, but we are the few that understand that.

I think greater understanding of the issue will come as people outside of the norm gain greater visibility.

This has been echoed some number of times, but most people are actually outside of the norm, in spite of the great amount of advertising that seems to suggest to the contrary.  I don't think you can draw a strong conclusion here in general necessarily, but you can offer it up as an example that sometimes society is wrong about gender, and if it can be wrong on gender roles, it might mess up in detecting someone's gender (even when we've got bits leading us to believe something).  It doesn't break the gender binary, but it might put another crack in it.

For anyone who thinks transgender people are treated fairly, you might want to read this:
http://transequality.org/Resources/NCTE_prelim_survey_econ.pdf

It supports one of the primary reasons I feel it's in our best interest to adopt a different term and one that does not conjure up any thoughts of trans anything.

I don't think anyone believes we're being "treated fairly".
The disagreement is over what can be "won" by changing titles, especially in comparison with what can be won by working on changing opinion and knowledge.

And also on just how all-encompassing a term can be without being rendered pointless.

Well that's why humans invent so many different words, some broader, some more narrow.  Depends on who is using them and why.  I suppose a classic example is how the  Eskimo-Aleut languages have several words for 'snow' while the Mayan cultures (where snow was very rare) had only a few.  Even in English someone born, raised and having always lived in Florida might only have one word for snow, while ski bums and bunnies have a handful.

Or, we have 'engineers' - but there are some huge differences between a mechanical engineer, a sound engineer, an electrical engineer and the guy driving the train who is also called an engineer.  Sometimes you need to distinguish, you're not going to get much help from any of the sound engineers I know if you need to move the train. 

There are people who are 'artists' - a very broad definition.  But within that group of people doing arts, there are people who do 'fine arts' but a further breakdown will show that a dancer is not the same as a sculptor.  They do different things, with different tools, for different audiences (though they may overlap, hence the coverage of both as 'artists').

Though it's possible to use such 'labels' to the point of irrelevance, they can also serve a very real purpose too.  So you have to be careful in using language.  And at times understand that it may not even suit your purpose.  The famous art quote - one of them anyway - is that: Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.  That one can never really be used to capture or describe the other.

The Inuit languages do not actually have any words for snow, because they don't have any words. They are polysynthetic, hyper-agglutinative languages, in which word-expressions are composed on the fly from morphemes. The "words for snow" are simply different ways of combining those morphemes to refer to snow, and there are indeed a great many of them. They are not, however, "words," and there can't be any way of having a fixed number of them, because the language is so open to improvisation.

Sorry, my language nerdity got the better of me.  ;D

Well English works that way too, but German is even worse, combining words until they are almost sentence length in and of themselves, and at that, you have to read to the end to find out what they are doing.  Always hated that German deal of sticking the verbs at the end.

But fine, they have differing combinations that very specifically describe the particular characteristics of the snow itself, and not just 'snow' qua snow.

Believe me, if you hate German, you'd barf just trying to parse a single sentence of Inuktitut.  :D

But yes, thank you. My inner langnerd has been satisfied.

Thanks I've already had to learn two different languages (three if you want to count engineer speak as a totally different language, which it is).

Well if you are gonna be serious about this you need to stop throwing out every sugestion out of hand. There have been some good ideas thrown out by some of the others. I do not know what you are looking for because everything that would be a good fit is dismissed.

Quote from: tekla on April 04, 2010, 12:08:49 PM


Or, we have 'engineers' - but there are some huge differences between a mechanical engineer, a sound engineer, an electrical engineer and the guy driving the train who is also called an engineer.  Sometimes you need to distinguish, you're not going to get much help from any of the sound engineers I know if you need to move the train. 

There are people who are 'artists' - a very broad definition.  But within that group of people doing arts, there are people who do 'fine arts' but a further breakdown will show that a dancer is not the same as a sculptor.  They do different things, with different tools, for different audiences (though they may overlap, hence the coverage of both as 'artists').

Gender Engineers       Gender Artists

Quote from: cynthialee on April 04, 2010, 01:23:07 PM
Well if you are gonna be serious about this you need to stop throwing out every sugestion out of hand. There have been some good ideas thrown out by some of the others. I do not know what you are looking for because everything that would be a good fit is dismissed.

"Homosexuals" avoided homo-anything when they adopted "gay".  "Negros" avoided negro-anything when they adopted "black", and from there they avoided color when they adopted "African American". 

In each case, the intent was to shed a negative stigma.  And while a portion of the stigma may have survived, much of it was shed by the simple process of choosing and staying with a new term.

Many of the suggestions here include transgender or allude to the term.  For the same reasons other discriminated against minorities have avoided certain terms, we need to do the same.  As I've said before, trans-anything has to be avoided.

If my memory serves me correctly, "halcyon" and "tranquil" are the only terms suggested that avoid the trans thing.

Ataraxia

Ataraxia (ἀταραξία "tranquillity") is a Greek term used by Pyrrho and Epicurus for a lucid state, characterized by freedom from worry or any other preoccupation.

For the Epicureans, ataraxia was synonymous with the only true happiness possible for a person. It signifies the state of robust tranquility that derives from eschewing faith in an afterlife, not fearing the gods because they are distant and unconcerned with us, avoiding politics and vexatious people, surrounding oneself with trustworthy and affectionate friends and, most importantly, being an affectionate, virtuous person, worthy of trust.

I disagree that the word trans can not be anypart of a new term.
And actually go through the posts there were a few more propossed beyond the two you listed....

Quote from: Julie Marie on April 04, 2010, 10:44:11 PM
"Homosexuals" avoided homo-anything when they adopted "gay".  "Negros" avoided negro-anything when they adopted "black", and from there they avoided color when they adopted "African American".

Ofcourse, "African American" is only used in the US really.
I know a brit that got referred to as such during his vacation to the US and got rather irritated, going "I'm not African, and I'm not American! I'm a f-ing BRIT!"
I lol'd.

And like I've said before.
The term-changes are more a US thing.
"Homosexuals" are still "Homosexuals" in Iceland, and they've got more equality here than over there.
So in the end, what will changing titles change that working on changing public opinion won't do better, and quicker?

YAY! Miniar!!! I am sold. Ussaage terms geting changed is senseless if it does no real good, which a new term for our condition would  be. Lets take Iceland as an example there is no need to change terms. Just peoples hearts.

I'm with Miniar on this. Still, I wouldn't mind being called an "ataraxid." That's probably just me, though.  :laugh:

Quote from: tekla on April 04, 2010, 12:08:49 PM
Well that's why humans invent so many different words, some broader, some more narrow.  Depends on who is using them and why.  I suppose a classic example is how the  Eskimo-Aleut languages have several words for 'snow' while the Mayan cultures (where snow was very rare) had only a few.  Even in English someone born, raised and having always lived in Florida might only have one word for snow, while ski bums and bunnies have a handful.

Or, we have 'engineers' - but there are some huge differences between a mechanical engineer, a sound engineer, an electrical engineer and the guy driving the train who is also called an engineer.  Sometimes you need to distinguish, you're not going to get much help from any of the sound engineers I know if you need to move the train. 

There are people who are 'artists' - a very broad definition.  But within that group of people doing arts, there are people who do 'fine arts' but a further breakdown will show that a dancer is not the same as a sculptor.  They do different things, with different tools, for different audiences (though they may overlap, hence the coverage of both as 'artists').

Though it's possible to use such 'labels' to the point of irrelevance, they can also serve a very real purpose too.  So you have to be careful in using language.  And at times understand that it may not even suit your purpose.  The famous art quote - one of them anyway - is that: Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.  That one can never really be used to capture or describe the other.

I think this is precisely the point. Avoiding the perceived ickiness of the word "transsexual" or "transgender"  and any resulting increase in discrimination is of secondary importance, and very unlikely to be effective. However, helping the language evolve is useful because it allows us to more clearly express our ideas; this can eventually have political implications, but mainly it's just convenient. The words we have right now obviously don't work that well. Probably, an improvement in the political climate around gender-variant people of all types will defuse the emotions that the words bring up. So changing the language will probably be the result of political change, not the cause.

I have lots of words and terms for snow, by the way: Powder, depth hoar, surface hoar, corn, neve, firn, sastrugi, wind slab, sun crust, slush, mashed potatoes, blower, etc.

Quote from: Miniar on April 05, 2010, 08:05:03 AMSo in the end, what will changing titles change that working on changing public opinion won't do better, and quicker?

If this country was filled with reasonable, open-minded people, willing to learn, I'd say yeah, let's educate them!

But that's not the case.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of people who think that what was, is and always will be - things don't change.  And when it's something that doesn't directly effect you, you tend to believe gossip because it's easier and, since everyone else believes it, it must be true.  So changing public opinion becomes a lot harder than starting fresh.

Changing public opinion requires education.  Look at all that the gender continuum includes.  It's a very complex and involved subject.  Unless it touches your life, what's the motivation to take the time to learn about it?  So "those people" can have a better life?  That's a tough sell.

Let's say we use the term Berdache.  Few people know it or that it came from Native American tribes and that it, in effect, meant transgender.  And few people know the Berdache were highly revered, so much so that they often were given highly regarded positions within the tribe.  The term once had a very positive image.

So, we start using Berdache to define anyone who is uncomfortable living within the gender binary.  And we put that explanation out there.  Over time we explain it further, add to it and "engineer" it (good word, thanks Kat), so ultimately the term will be seen in a positive and nonthreatening way.  History shows it is more effective and much quicker than trying to redefine something that has negative stigmas attached to it.

Ussing Berdache although I like it would be apropriating a self identification that belongs to some of our trans sisters who are Native American.

Only, it won't be "starting fresh".

We can not "start fresh".

We are known to exist and we are hated. We can't undo that by changing terms.

And changing terms won't educate anyone.

The hard work is hard, yes, but it takes hard work to create real change.

Ussing Berdache although I like it would be apropriating a self identification that belongs to some of our trans sisters who are Native American.

That, and a lot of them find the world offensive, as it's not their description of themselves, but rather some anthropological (from the French I think) label that others (outsiders) stuck on them.

As I understand it, yes, early North American explorers used Berdache but Native Americans prefer Two Spirit.

I once read the Two Spirit were revered in all native tribes except the warring tribes.  Interesting.  We like war over here and look how gender fluidity is seen.

I didn't use Two Spirit in the example because, for this purpose, it's more of a poly spirited thing.

I would rather not be known as two-spirit or poly-spirit for the simple reason that I am not "two", nor "many", I am a singular individual, a single spirit in a single body. There's just a glitch involved there.

Originally members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were called Mormons as a slight against them.  They've since taken the word, adopted it, and turned it into something they own.

Maybe we could do the same?

The 'freaks' did it with the word 'freak'. 

I did it with my middle name.  My class mates in school would call me Louise.

I'm now quite proud of it.

-Sandy

Quote from: Miniar on April 06, 2010, 02:08:27 PM
I would rather not be known as two-spirit or poly-spirit for the simple reason that I am not "two", nor "many", I am a singular individual, a single spirit in a single body. There's just a glitch involved there.

This isn't just about you, it's about us.  The term (whatever it may be) would represent a group, which you can or not choose to identify with.

It is hard to give a general term to each of the types given ie: Crossdresser, Transsexual, Transgender, because each one may have a faucet of the other or may not, depending on the person.  I know of persons that are CD only.  Meaning they get sexual gratification from dressing as a female or male and in that aspect makes them feel feminine. In their outside lives they are of their born gender and the crossdressing is only an aspect of their sexuality. While there are Transgendered ppl that cross dress as part of their RLT or that they live as females/males even tho they are not post op.  Then there are Transsexuals that are post op that are legally female/male, so  in that aspect, are they CD??? Imo, no, because they are now female or male and that is societies norm of how that specific gender should dress.  To me it is the  person using these terms that doesnt use them in the proper context that confuses ppl that do not yet understand what makes each  one different, and how some can be combined depending on where the  individual is at in their  progress of transition, or where they want to be.  Some merely want to stay a CD and there is nothing wrong with that, while there are others that use crossdressing as a part of their  transition into becoming totally female or male.  Only words that bug me or i find insulting are "He She" or "->-bleeped-<-".  They are terms that are generally used in a derogatory fashion. 

Quote from: Julie Marie on April 06, 2010, 03:08:43 PM
This isn't just about you, it's about us.  The term (whatever it may be) would represent a group, which you can or not choose to identify with.

I know it is not about just me.
Technically it's not even about "us" but about what we can do to improve understanding and acceptance.
BUT, for a term to hold any value, it has to have people backing it, and I was offering the reason why "I" would not back it, and would in fact keep from using it at all. I can't speak for anyone else, but I sincerely doubt I'm the only one of this specific reason for not wanting to use this specific term.

Mind you, I think that the problem isn't whether or not any of us agree with the term you choose, but then, I've explained so, repeatedly.

A new word won't allow us a fresh start.
As soon as we explain what we mean by it, the response will be "Oh, you mean you're a ->-bleeped-<-" where applicable.

I'm late to this thread,and apologize for not having read all of the responses.  If this has been mentioned then please just ignore.  Gender Gifted?  I have used it myself, it presents us in a positive light, it doesn't have baggage already attached so we can flesh out the word with our choice of ideas, it doesn't specifically reference one segment of the transgender spectrum.  Or maybe not.

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 27, 2010, 08:02:02 AM
One of the ways discriminated against groups used to minimize prejudice is to formulate new terminology to describe them, even if it's just one word.
So, if you were given the job to come up with a new term for crossdresser, transsexual, transgender... what would it be?

One of the ways...even if its's just one word.
So, if you...what would it be?

Original post. A simple statement and a simple question.
Everyone knows the arguments and complications.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Does it have to be so damn serious?

I still think it's "ataraxid" or nothing.

Al this hullabaloo from people who tend to not like labels. Its telling in its own way.

Frankly it doesn't bother me, away from this forum these terms never get used or enter my head in my daily life.

Quote from: LordKAT on April 07, 2010, 12:19:39 AM
Al this hullabaloo from people who tend to not like labels. Its telling in its own way.

Heh. You have a point.

Quote from: LordKAT on April 07, 2010, 12:19:39 AM
Al this hullabaloo from people who tend to not like labels. Its telling in its own way.

As I said in an earlier post, we live in a world of labels, like it or not.  I don't know anyone who likes labels.  Titles, maybe, but labels, no.

The fact is, this didn't start with us labeling ourselves.  The medical community creates a word and defines it.  Society takes that word and either accepts the definition or makes changes to it so it works for them. 

The words created for those who don't fall within the gender binary have suffered the fate most social taboos do, they are redefined negatively.  And the words intended to be used for medical purposes soon evoke emotions that often lead to prejudice, discrimination and hatred.

This isn't unique to TGs, it has happened through human history and it still happens today.  But there are proven ways to deal with this stigma.  One is using a new word and redefining it.  Transgender is a relatively new word and there was some success in lessening the negative stigma simply by introducing a new word to society and defining it. 

There's no reason why it can't be done again and be just as successful, if not more.  It's a lot easier than changing the minds of billions.

Friend of mine made a comment the other day that feels like it goes here.

When gay became a word for homosexuals, homosexuals weren't any more accepted, gay just became a "bad word".

I'm usually the gloomy gus, but I think you are wrong, miniar.  The term Gay for homosexual never became a "bad" word, at least in US.  Jerry Falwell and his ilk, who were big at the time, couldn't quite tarnish the word and label.  Taking control of the label didn't produce instant acceptance either, I will admit that.  It did give a focal point to gays, who were then able to direct the narrative.  Sure, some people, maybe 15-20%, will ALWAYS hate us.  It is that 60% in the middle that are pliable with the right arguments and words and easily led.  Unfortunately, most people are sheep, looking for the ram at the head of the flock to lead.  Words and labels can be used to make the haters look less like leaders and more like the coo-coo for cocopuffs wackos that they are!

Ataraxid has so much potential to be a bad word.

I've been thinking this issue over, heres some of my (slightly contradictory) thoughts:

The problem with 'transgender man/woman' is that the word puts the majority of the emphasis on what you were, not what you are. It basically says "was once a man" or "was once a woman" instead of stressing what you are NOW.

When people move on from something that they were, they often get the title "ex" or "former" prefacing their old title - i.e. ex-cop, ex-girlfriend, ex-friend, former teacher, former manager, etc. The majority of these have a positive connotation.
Some things do not get an "ex" or "former" applied to them - you don't get ex-murders or ex-rapists. It seems when something is really bad, you're never allowed to move on from it.
The exception to this is ex-convict, which shows that you may have moved on from offending, but still references your bad past.

However I don't think 'ex-man' would help any more than 'trans woman' since it still places the emphasis on what I used to be, which isn't positive.
So how do we refer to people in new roles or positions? New employee? New manager? New person? Or just plain newbie?
As trite as it sounds, 'New Woman' or 'New Man' have far better connotations for me than 'trans woman' (ex man) or 'trans man' (ex woman).
'Neo Woman' or 'Neo Man' might also be an option and it mirrors the proclivity to call post surgical vaginas 'neo vaginas'.

Anyway, those are my current thoughts on the subject.

Quote from: casorce on April 08, 2010, 07:58:04 PM
As trite as it sounds, 'New Woman' or 'New Man' have far better connotations for me than 'trans woman' (ex man) or 'trans man' (ex woman).
'Neo Woman' or 'Neo Man' might also be an option and it mirrors the proclivity to call post surgical vaginas 'neo vaginas'.

Whoa. I'm having a moment of deja vu. I once said, jokingly, that I wanted to be referred to as a "novelty." Dumb joke, but I was combining the prefix "nov" for new with "t" for testosterone and, obliquely, "t" for trans. I also liked the association with "novel," since I read and write a lot.

Playing off Casorce's suggestion, how about Nova Man and Nova Woman? Or is that too Planet of the Apes?

P.S. Regarding "ataraxid," I used to take a medication called Atarax. It made me sorta sleepy. :icon_sleep:

Quote from: Arch on April 08, 2010, 09:03:14 PM
Playing off Casorce's suggestion, how about Nova Man and Nova Woman?

I have to admit, 'Nova' appeals strongly to my sci-fi inclinations. I have visions of a star exploding and a sparkling entity of light emerging.
At any rate, it removes the emphasis on what the person was and stresses what they are.

Quote from: casorce on April 08, 2010, 09:12:50 PM
I have to admit, 'Nova' appeals strongly to my sci-fi inclinations. I have visions of a star exploding and a sparkling entity of light emerging.
At any rate, it removes the emphasis on what the person was and stresses what they are.

Yeah, I like the way you're going with this. And the astronomical connotation has some interesting possibilities.

Quote from: Arch on April 08, 2010, 09:03:14 PM
P.S. Regarding "ataraxid," I used to take a medication called Atarax. It made me sorta sleepy. :icon_sleep:

LOL!  Just looked that up......so much for that one? I guess? Sounds like they have it for dogs even, lol.

I like Nova.....
Nova
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A nova (pl. novae) is a cataclysmic nuclear explosion caused by the accretion of hydrogen onto the surface of a white dwarf star, which ignites and starts nuclear fusion in a runaway manner. Novae are not to be confused with supernovae or luminous red novae.

Luminous Red Novae.....has a ring to it

So instead of "I am trans," one would say, "I am nova." Or maybe "I've gone nova." LOL.

Arch, that is the best one  have heard here yet .    NOVA !!

Lets have a Poll and get this thing sorted.

Quote from: Arch on April 08, 2010, 10:26:36 PM
So instead of "I am trans," one would say, "I am nova." Or maybe "I've gone nova." LOL.

LOL 

And the legendary 'Super Nova'? (couldn't resist)

Poll time, why not. Start it up there Dianna!

I better leave the poll up to Julie Marie, she's been leading this thread.  ;D

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on April 08, 2010, 06:30:26 PMThe term Gay for homosexual never became a "bad" word, at least in US.

Er, people have used the term "gay" as an insult, as a threat, and to describe things that are "stupid" or pointless or generally disliked.

And it has, if anything, become more common.

Have you never heard people go "That's so gay!" and refer to things that are stupid/ridiculous?
_

QuoteNova

That's a cellphone company up here ya know?

I drove a Nova for awhile. Not the best car I ever had.

Quote from: Miniar on April 09, 2010, 03:30:50 AM
That's a cellphone company up here ya know?

There's a trans cellphone company up there? Very progressive.

Quote from: ativan on April 09, 2010, 08:40:46 AM
There's a trans cellphone company up there? Very progressive.

;D you have no idea!

Quote from: Dianna on April 09, 2010, 01:58:01 AM
I better leave the poll up to Julie Marie, she's been leading this thread.  ;D

"Nova" seems to have a positive reception.  The car is gone and probably forgotten in most people's minds.  The cellphone company isn't well known outside of Iceland.

As far as the poll, let's see - from memory - we have Nova, Halcyon, Gappy, Trans, Tranquil.  What have I missed?

Is Ataraxid out? I missed Gappy. Seems there were a couple more? Nova is kinda hanging in there for me.

Quote from: Julie Marie on April 09, 2010, 11:42:39 AM
The car is gone and probably forgotten in most people's minds.[/color][/font]

I don't want to talk about my old Chevy Nova. As in "no va." Like, "It won't go."

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on April 09, 2010, 02:11:19 PM
I don't want to talk about my old Chevy Nova. As in "no va." Like, "It won't go."

That's why the car didn't sell in countries where Spanish was the national tongue...

My family had a horse named Nova. The Spanish stable hands thought that was too funny.

Quote from: Arch on April 09, 2010, 02:24:37 PM
That's why the car didn't sell in countries where Spanish was the national tongue...

also known as an urban myth.

Quote from: LordKAT on April 09, 2010, 03:05:30 PM
also known as an urban myth.

Yeah, but it's still funny.

Quote from: LordKAT on April 09, 2010, 03:05:30 PM
also known as an urban myth.

Actually, my father once told me that the car wasn't even called a Nova in Spanish-speaking countries. I don't know if that's true.

But I do remember how much the senores laughed when they were herding the horses out to pasture and calling, "Nooooo-vaaaaaaaa!" Especially funny since Nova had apparently set a record in barrel-racing in our little community long before my family owned him.

yes still funny and caribe as an alternate name is still part of the myth

Quote from: LordKAT on April 09, 2010, 04:35:41 PM
yes still funny and caribe as an alternate name is still part of the myth

Wow, I didn't even know about that one...El Caribe is one of the two hotels we stayed in before we got permanent housing...and then we bought a horse and called him Nova. I wonder if it was my father's idea.

Anyway...are people serious about coming up with a new name for transgender? Because I don't think it will ever come off. But it's fun to play with ideas.

Quote from: Arch on April 09, 2010, 05:22:19 PM
Anyway...are people serious about coming up with a new name for transgender? Because I don't think it will ever come off. But it's fun to play with ideas.

Well, it would be pretty wild if something really came from it. I do think it has been fun to throw some stuff out there. Maybe a new thread that states something to that effect? A just for fun?
I think if people took it as that, it would be fun.

I have been thinking the last few hours that maybe we are trying to include too many people under one umbrela.
We have some groups that are similar enough to lump togather but other groups that only have a marginal conection to eachother.
Maybe accepting that we all do not fit into a single definable word is the key.

The only reason it wouldn't happen is if it loses momentum.  Watch how the Traditional Values Coalition runs with the "Dirty 30" campaign.  They came up with something that would appeal to their supporters, had the titillating word, "dirty" in it and rhymed it to a number, even though they define it as "30+".  They will continue their campaign and the term will catch on.

It's a tried and true method.  No reason we can't do the same.  With limited funds, it might take longer but if we waged a campaign and persisted, it will catch on, much to the chagrin of the "Dirty 30" crowd.

What a shame, we're not using Nova.

Well, something akin to Neo or Nova would work well for transsexuals in particular because our transformations give us a new life. I like Neo, but it reminds me too much of the Matrix movies, which I just don't like. But I think Casorce's onto something good with the concept of newness. What about the word for "new" in other languages?

Somebody mentioned that the concept of the chrysalis was popular once in trans circles. I thought briefly about "Chrysalid," but that smacks of the John Wyndham novel The Chrysalids (not coincidentally titled Re-Birth in the U.S.). But still, how many people would even think of that? On the other hand, the word is pretty unwieldy.

I dunno, but it's fun to speculate.

I agree! It's fun to speculate.

Quote from: Dianna on April 09, 2010, 07:48:12 PM
What a shame, we're not using Nova.

Hey girl!  Don't count it out!  It's the best (from this girl's eye) suggested yet.

That's good then.   I think people don't like letting go of the older words.

Julie Marie you said:

Quote from: Julie Marie on April 09, 2010, 11:42:39 AM
As far as the poll, let's see - from memory - we have Nova, Halcyon, Gappy, Trans, Tranquil.  What have I missed?

It does not matter whether you have a poll or not there will be no consensus on this issue, because the gender spectrum around here is wide and varied.  However, I suggest the following option in the poll when it is put up 'none'.

As I said before I will not use any new term, because as Miniar said, the word 'gay' is used as a derogatory and negative connotation and I constantly hear the word 'gay' plus many others mentioned in a negative way.

Kind regards
Sarah B

I could say "you're a great person" in such a way that you'd feel obligated to shower after I said it.  It's not the word, its the implications behind it.

Quote from: Sarah B on April 10, 2010, 12:52:15 AMAs I said before I will not use any new term, because as Miniar said, the word 'gay' is used as a derogatory and negative connotation and I constantly hear the word 'gay' plus many others mentioned in a negative way.

You can stand in defiance against anyone using a label to define you but you cannot stop them from doing so.  Labeling is as old as humans.  It isn't going away any time soon. 

If you can't beat 'em, manipulate 'em.

Instead of abandoning the word for it's negative connotations, lining up a new word to be treated as negative as well, I still think the solution, in the long run, must be to do the hard thing, and change minds.

Yes, catchy phrases can be used, but most of the work is merely being "loud" enough.

People don't differentiate between hearing something said often, or hearing something said by many people, so all we got to do is find a way to tell the truth in a catchy manner and then tell it over and over and over and over until it sinks in.

Well, I'm in a situation where I can correct the person that says anything derogatory and that includes words that are far more insulting than just the 'gay' term and as you say, "If you can't beat 'em, manipulate 'em".  Well I have been doing that for the last 5 years.

One of the solutions to the problem and this will not happen over night, is to treat each person with the dignity, kindness and respect they deserve and the best way to do that is to lead by example. 

Standing in 'defiance' to another label to define me and others, yes you are right, I am standing against the 'new label'.  I did not go through all what I have been through to have another 'deogratory' term applied to me and others, to define who we are.  We have a derogatory term that is applied to us constantly and that word is 'Female'.

You cannot stop people from taking opposite sides, doing so is as old as humans and taking sides isn't going away any time soon.

Kind regards
Sarah B

I had a conversation about my transition today with someone who has, in his own slightly inept way, been very supportive of me. It's not something I generally talk about, but there was a particular reason for it today. During our conversation, he mentioned that he had recently (and by complete coincidence) spoken to a therapist who works with gender issues, and that the therapist had been able to speak about trans issues much more eloquently, not only because of his knowledge and familiarity, but also because of the language he used, the words, the vocabulary. My friend had a great deal of trouble even talking to me (for example, about other people he knew about dealing with the same issue I had), without tripping over his words.

Coming up with clear words that effectively express what we need them to express in some way that feels natural helps us if only because it helps our allies. Changing minds is important, but we can't do enough of that alone. We absolutely need allies. And we need to give them the words that they can feel comfortable using in repeating the message.

We have a serious problem with the ways we describe gender-variant people of any sort, including the most binary-identified ones, whose history at least is certainly gender-variant in the perception of the broader culture. It's always easier (linguistically speaking) for the bigots, but we need to give our allies a fighting chance. The old words fail, not because of the connotations bigots have attempted to attach to them, but because they don't feel natural to our allies.

As I've mentioned above, I like "trans" as an umbrella term. I also "gender-variant" and "gender-variant identities" as an even broader umbrella, to include even people who don't necessarily identify as trans in any way, but transgress the bounds of societal gender roles. For specific people, descriptive phrases, especially verb phrases: "she transitioned when she was twenty"; "he is not medically transitioning; only socially"; "he sometimes wears pleather miniskirts to parties"; "she is not trans-identified, but her sexuality is very masculine."

These are all things I've actually said about people I know. I'm not being not catchy; just clear, respectful, precise, concise, and stylistically simple. Okay, perhaps I'm overstating my case. In any case, those are things we should be looking for in how we discuss trans issues. For that reason, I'm not really sold at all on the various neologisms floating around.

Alyssa, I do agree with you to a point but there's an acronym sales people use when teaching the newbies how to make a sale - K.I.S.S. - keep it simple stupid!

It's not intended to be insulting to the trainee but rather to drive home the message that most people need to be spoon fed little tidbits if you want to keep their interest.  Give them too much at one time and you'll lose them.

Those of us in the community have had a lot of time developing our own vocabulary, complete with, sometimes, very precise definitions.  The need to be so precise is indicative of how complex this subject is.  Gays & lesbians get confused.  Therapists get confused.  Even we sometimes get confused.  So for those who know nothing about it, we need to walk them through this taking baby steps.  Using words and terms we've developed over time with someone who knows little or nothing about the subject will only result in most people becoming confused, and we'll lose them.

Simply put, there is no such thing as a gender binary - male & female with nothing in between.  It's a myth.  Yet billions of people believe it's very real.  To most, it's all about the genitals.  But it doesn't take a lot of brain cells for someone to grasp the concept that there are many people who are not happy trying to fit into gender stereotypes.  Question them enough and I'll bet most people will eventually say they don't like this or that about the stereotype they are supposed to fit into.

This certainly won't happen overnight.  It will take decades, unless we have a lot of resources behind the effort.  But if each and every one of us took the time to explain, in the simplest of terms, that we are all unique and part of our uniqueness comes in the form of gender variations.  However, to get them to begin listening to us, we have to first defuse the bomb, the thing that brings about confusion, fear and anger, e.g: she-male, ->-bleeped-<-, transsexual and even transgender.  And one simple way of doing that is creating and defining a new term that is perceived as harmless and therefore nothing to fear.

A conversation starter, so to speak.  Maybe those who are uncomfortable with certain definitions will take the step to ask 'yeah, just what's up with that?'. To be able to use a word or description that is that step away. Just one of the many different ways to bring enlightenment. There is no description, word, magic potion, etc. that will work. None. But a few or more different approaches just may work, and doing nothing has already failed. It's not an attempt to take trans anything away from being used. The words are valid for what they are, no real reason to stop using them. But adding something that may open the door of enlightenment, even a little, is much better than keeping it locked so those who haven't a clue, can't come in and do harm.
In my humble thoughts, does such a word exist? Anybody have an idea? Aww, what the hell, anyone want to throw out a term, word, description? Who knows what might happen?

Well, Venus, the Roman Goddess, was known to take on several different forms.  As Venus Felix she was the bringer of good fortune.  As Venus Victix she was the bringer of victory.  As Venus Genetrix she took on the role as the mother of the founder of Rome.  As Venus Vericordia she was the protector of chastity.

But she also dabbled in gender stuff too.  As Venus Barbarta she was a bearded crossdressing Venus who is called on to repel unwanted husbands and suitors.

And as Venus Castina she was called upon by men who feel they have a woman's spirit housed in their body.

Of course any derivation of Venus, Barbarta and/or Castina would have to lose the female identity associated with Venus if it were to apply to both MTFs and FTMs.

It was Venus Castina who is said to have changed an army of Sythicians who had pillaged her temple into women. 

That Venus was quite the little minx, wasn't she?  >:-)