Ever passed in a situation that made it way worse than being seen as female would have been?
This morning on my way to work, I had about 10 minutes between busses, and went into a convenience store/gas station for coffee and cigarettes. The girl at the register starts to hand me the pack, then looks at me again and decides to ask for ID. In my ID picture, I'm wearing glasses with my hair about chin length. Last week I got contacts, and my hair is a tiny bit longer than in my profile pic now.
She stares at my ID for a few seconds (its from Illinois and I'm living in Vermont right now), does a quadruple take back and forth between me and the card, and eventually another employee comes over and starts looking at it as well. Meanwhile, the line behind me is up to 4 or 5 people. So the two employees are scrutinizing my ID, asking for the address and my birthday and other random questions. I almost laughed out loud when one of them pointed to the card (I'm guessing to the F) and says "I guess it could really be her" "you think so? I can't tell". Finally they sold the pack to me, and I just barely made my second bus.
For the first time in years, I honestly wanted to be seen as a girl so I could get the hell out of there.
ETA: The fact that I'll be 26 in less than a month made the whole thing even more ridiculous.
My visa got demagnetized.
I tried to use it at the grocery store. I look like a hippy with stubble in my DL picture. I was wearing a low cut black cami with an asymmetric bob cut.
One visit to the fraud department later, when they came back going "uhm." I just told them I used my debit card and to give me my ->-bleeped-<- back.
My ex was more upset than I was (we were buying ice cream and mixers.)
wow kyle, they really thought you were under 18? LOL, not that you look 'old' or anything, you actually look younger than your actual age, but still. not every store even checks for id even if you are young so i guess you just were at the wrong store at the wrong time haha
at least you know you must be doing a good job, kyle! lol
Maybe it's about time to spring for a new ID?
Welcome to the "Sometimes passing's a problem" club!
Quote from: Miniar on April 28, 2010, 09:51:14 AM
Welcome to the "Sometimes passing's a problem" club!
hey, nice, you like Nietzsche too!
Quote from: jimmymot on April 28, 2010, 10:04:17 AM
hey, nice, you like Nietzsche too!
^^ Yup.
Hard not to with my social circle.
One of my best friends wears a shirt with "Nietzsche thinks you're weak!" written on it, my partner is a solipsist that strives to become free from morals and such, and I.. well.. I don't really believe "I" exist.
Quote from: Devin87 on April 28, 2010, 09:39:36 AM
Maybe it's about time to spring for a new ID?
I'm working on it. Just waiting on a paycheck so I can get my license un-suspended. It's turning into a huge expensive hassle. 4 years ago I sold my car before I moved to Chicago, and with all the craziness of packing and selling it I completely forgot about a $5 parking ticket I got on the last day I owned the car. Didn't know about it till I tried to renew my licence, and was told It was suspended till I pay over $200.
Quote from: Miniar on April 28, 2010, 10:20:37 AM
^^ Yup.
Hard not to with my social circle.
One of my best friends wears a shirt with "Nietzsche thinks you're weak!" written on it, my partner is a solipsist that strives to become free from morals and such, and I.. well.. I don't really believe "I" exist.
ha. how awesome. what is your explanation for your perception then, if not existence. just curious.
i am amoral myself, but i have to be practical, for my sexual tendencies can gravitate towards things which are unquestionably destructive, and i need to keep a reign on them. but i agree that morality is not absolute and merely a social construct. necessary though, to some extent. pragmatism is a strong value to me. guess its my love of science.
Post Merge: April 28, 2010, 10:38:22 AM
Quote from: kyle_lawrence on April 28, 2010, 10:26:09 AM
I'm working on it. Just waiting on a paycheck so I can get my license un-suspended. It's turning into a huge expensive hassle. 4 years ago I sold my car before I moved to Chicago, and with all the craziness of packing and selling it I completely forgot about a $5 parking ticket I got on the last day I owned the car. Didn't know about it till I tried to renew my licence, and was told It was suspended till I pay over $200.
the dmv is no picnic by any means.
Quote from: jimmymot on April 28, 2010, 10:37:11 AM
ha. how awesome. what is your explanation for your perception then, if not existence. just curious.
i am amoral myself, but i have to be practical, for my sexual tendencies can gravitate towards things which are unquestionably destructive, and i need to keep a reign on them. but i agree that morality is not absolute and merely a social construct. necessary though, to some extent. pragmatism is a strong value to me. guess its my love of science.
Perception doesn't prove that "I" exist, only that "perception" exists.
Even if I exist, then by the time I've perceived myself, I've changed, so that the I that I perceive is gone, and thus no longer existent, and thus "I" don't exist.
That happens to my best friend all the time. He just moved down here from Utah with my brother his id picture looks nothing like him and it's a Utah I.D so that on top of the fact he looks younger then me causes him a lot of problems when it comes to anything from buying cigarettes to getting his medication from the pharmacy. As far as the cigarettes go it's kind of sad because he's going to be thirty in May and people still think he's fifteen or so.
I discovered today that apparently now that I look more masculine and am passing reasonably well I also look older. When I was still trying to be a girl I used to go out for walks in the afternoon and almost always got stopped by a cop thinking I was skipping school. -_- I just got back in from a walk just now and about two cops passed me and didn't even give me a second glance. It probably helps that I'm usually so tired I almost always have undereye circles and I have a reasonably nice tan which has always made me look a bit older.
I've had that happen. But when they said her, I would've corrected them....just to screw with them.
My licence does not have a gender marker. It has my (male) legal name on it, and a current photo. I get asked for it every time I go to buy smokes.
Beginning of this week I was in a full suit, buying smokes at lunch and still got asked for it. We had a laugh and the lady said I was like her brother - just had a really young face.
I've also gotten "Wow... are you really THAT old?!" (26 for reference). We had a good laugh over that one :laugh:.
Never wished I didn't pass, but always wish I pass "better".
I have noticed that when you pass (ie, read as male) some people such as dentists won't be quite as light handed working on you - you're a man so you can take it ;)
Quote from: Miniar on April 28, 2010, 12:38:50 PM
Perception doesn't prove that "I" exist, only that "perception" exists.
Even if I exist, then by the time I've perceived myself, I've changed, so that the I that I perceive is gone, and thus no longer existent, and thus "I" don't exist.
Ah, the old Heraclitus thing. "You can't step into the same river twice."
I agree with that, but at the same time I don't consider "self" to be a means of establishing existence.
Sense of self to me is a combination of different functions that together create consciousness, which we perceive as "self", so to discount the perception as insubstantial based on the transient nature of self only points out to the fact that it is a function to me, rather than an object.
So while we can establish that "I" is merely a convenient cluster of mechanisms that is un-capturable, we still can't rule out that the function actually exists.
So, I guess what I'm saying is, you can't step into the same river twice, but the river is there all the same.
Unless of course what you were postulating was exactly that, that the self is a concept and in that sense non-existent. I was assuming you were questioning existence as a whole based on the absence of self, when to me existence is self-evident enough to assume, even if it cannot be verified.
When I was still smoking, I went in to buy a pack and the lady wouldn't let me. She thought my license was fake. I had to show her my very old military ID to prove my identity lol.
Granted, I was only 19 (looked about 15) and the picture the DMV took was very washed out. But my hair was still roughly the same length or could conceivably be me. My military ID looked absolutely nothing like me and was taken when I was about 13. How that worked for her, I could never figure out.
Quote from: Teknoir on April 29, 2010, 04:24:52 AM
My licence does not have a gender marker. It has my (male) legal name on it, and a current photo. I get asked for it every time I go to buy smokes.
How did you manage that (the no gender marker)? I would love it if I get just get the F off my license. I've learned to deal with my birth name for now, but the F gets me every time.
I just need a back up plan in case I can only change my name and not my gender marker this summer.
Quote from: jimmymot on April 30, 2010, 07:21:31 AM
Ah, the old Heraclitus thing. "You can't step into the same river twice."
I agree with that, but at the same time I don't consider "self" to be a means of establishing existence.
Sense of self to me is a combination of different functions that together create consciousness, which we perceive as "self", so to discount the perception as insubstantial based on the transient nature of self only points out to the fact that it is a function to me, rather than an object.
So while we can establish that "I" is merely a convenient cluster of mechanisms that is un-capturable, we still can't rule out that the function actually exists.
So, I guess what I'm saying is, you can't step into the same river twice, but the river is there all the same.
Unless of course what you were postulating was exactly that, that the self is a concept and in that sense non-existent. I was assuming you were questioning existence as a whole based on the absence of self, when to me existence is self-evident enough to assume, even if it cannot be verified.
It is more a case of the simple fact that perception is always a little bit behind so even if existence is self evident, we will never experience it as it is.
Thus, all we see is always gone before we see it.
Including the self.
That and the fact that "I" as a person, as a being, am too close to myself to view myself objectively, and others are too removed from me to view me accurately, ultimately results in the person "me" not only being gone before it is perceived, but it can never be perceived accurately. "I" am but an idea, one that has limited basis in reality even, that is, even if we presume reality exists.
Quote from: Teknoir on April 29, 2010, 04:24:52 AMI have noticed that when you pass (ie, read as male) some people such as dentists won't be quite as light handed working on you - you're a man so you can take it ;)
Augh, I wish you hadn't said this. Pre-transition, I had a bad dental experience. Now I'm working up my nerve to find a new dentist. I actually have a couple of cavities now, so I can't put it off much longer. Nobody clocks me, but my insurance still has me as female. And I still vividly remember the drill when it nicked my nerve...:icon_eek:
Post Merge: April 30, 2010, 12:27:29 PM
Quote from: Adio on April 30, 2010, 11:42:47 AMHow did you manage that (the no gender marker)? I would love it if I get just get the F off my license.
He's not in the U.S.
omg you are so right about the dentist. When I came out to her, her technique got alot gentler and she paid attention to my reactions. Before that back in boy days she would just strong arm me and get it done without much empathy.
Quote from: Adio on April 30, 2010, 11:42:47 AM
How did you manage that (the no gender marker)? I would love it if I get just get the F off my license. I've learned to deal with my birth name for now, but the F gets me every time.
By being Australian :)
Apparently it was actually a transwoman that took up the issue with the government, saying that it was discriminatory (and possibly dangerous), and irrelevant since our photos are on there anyway. It's been like that as long as I can remember, so that story might not be accurate.
We also can remove or change our title on any government systems at will, regardless of gender marker (except the tax office, where you can only change it).
However - to change the gender marker we do need to be post top surgery and hysto... so it's not a perfect system.
Quote from: Arch on April 30, 2010, 12:26:00 PM
Augh, I wish you hadn't said this. Pre-transition, I had a bad dental experience. Now I'm working up my nerve to find a new dentist. I actually have a couple of cavities now, so I can't put it off much longer. Nobody clocks me, but my insurance still has me as female. And I still vividly remember the drill when it nicked my nerve...:icon_eek:
If you find a good one, it'll still be better than going to a bad one looking female.
I know where you're coming from. I went to a dodgy one with a huge cavity and it turned into a botched root canal. I have no idea how something can still hurt when you take the nerve out... but some days it feels as though the nerve is still exposed (it was a BIG cavity). I'm working up the cash to get someone competent to look at it.
Quote from: Miniar on April 30, 2010, 12:00:47 PM
It is more a case of the simple fact that perception is always a little bit behind so even if existence is self evident, we will never experience it as it is.
Thus, all we see is always gone before we see it.
Including the self.
That and the fact that "I" as a person, as a being, am too close to myself to view myself objectively, and others are too removed from me to view me accurately, ultimately results in the person "me" not only being gone before it is perceived, but it can never be perceived accurately. "I" am but an idea, one that has limited basis in reality even, that is, even if we presume reality exists.
Oh, well I completely agree with that. In fact, I used to trip on it so much I got excessively nihilistic about all pursuits, including that of gender. It wasn't until I got into science, particularly mathematics, that I began to understand that even though there is no evidence we exist outside our minds at all, there are still ways to verify what the mind perceives as being truth, even if the question of consciousness dictates that the truth cannot be 100% absolute.
An interesting example to me is video recorders, for although a recording still only captures things within the limit of our perception, it does reveal that reality, despite being subjective, has some consistent properties that the rational mind can perceive.
I don't Pass very often as fully male. I think people are just not sure what I am and don't want to ask. However my ID is from three years ago. before I came out, so even though I'm in a sort of genderless state, it looks nothing like me.
Going back home to visit the parentals though, I had no eyeliner on was tired frumpy and wearing a non discript hoodie and jeans and I was bound.
The guy who makes sure you arn't getting on the plane under someone elses ID looks at mine, looks at me, looks at it again and goes...
"Well that wasn't what I was expecting....could have fooled me." more to himself then me. Looking back I wish I'd said something.
Quote from: jimmymot on April 30, 2010, 11:39:21 PM
Oh, well I completely agree with that. In fact, I used to trip on it so much I got excessively nihilistic about all pursuits, including that of gender. It wasn't until I got into science, particularly mathematics, that I began to understand that even though there is no evidence we exist outside our minds at all, there are still ways to verify what the mind perceives as being truth, even if the question of consciousness dictates that the truth cannot be 100% absolute.
An interesting example to me is video recorders, for although a recording still only captures things within the limit of our perception, it does reveal that reality, despite being subjective, has some consistent properties that the rational mind can perceive.
Unless the recording's perception is equally subjective and flaws.
I have solved it differently. I simply work under "conscious operating assumptions". That is to say, I consciously decide to operate as if reality is real since if it is real, then I'm right to treat it as such, if it's not real then either it has a function that I won't realize by treating it as not real, and there's also the possibility of treating it as not real leading to enlightenment and subsequent blinking out of existence, and I'm just not ready to put away the legos yet.
So.. meh.. I treat it as real for now.
Quote from: Miniar on May 01, 2010, 10:06:40 AM
Unless the recording's perception is equally subjective and flaws.
I have solved it differently. I simply work under "conscious operating assumptions". That is to say, I consciously decide to operate as if reality is real since if it is real, then I'm right to treat it as such, if it's not real then either it has a function that I won't realize by treating it as not real, and there's also the possibility of treating it as not real leading to enlightenment and subsequent blinking out of existence, and I'm just not ready to put away the legos yet.
So.. meh.. I treat it as real for now.
This has been more my way of thinking since my search for god ended with nothing. Long time past now.
Quote from: Miniar on May 01, 2010, 10:06:40 AM
Unless the recording's perception is equally subjective and flaws.
I have solved it differently. I simply work under "conscious operating assumptions". That is to say, I consciously decide to operate as if reality is real since if it is real, then I'm right to treat it as such, if it's not real then either it has a function that I won't realize by treating it as not real, and there's also the possibility of treating it as not real leading to enlightenment and subsequent blinking out of existence, and I'm just not ready to put away the legos yet.
So.. meh.. I treat it as real for now.
I do the same, exist on the presumption that existence is real, only I've resigned to the belief that there is no true
enlightenment in the sense of transcendence. I guess the difference would be that I see consciousness as limited by the mind only as the result of the way the brain functions .
By proposing one could blink themselves out of existence, are you suggesting you discount the aspect of biology as part of the illusion of "reality"?
I haven't encountered someone so committed to metaphysics before! its interesting. :)
Quote from: jimmymot on May 01, 2010, 10:20:30 AM
I do the same, exist on the presumption that existence is real, only I've resigned to the belief that there is no true
enlightenment in the sense of transcendence. I guess the difference would be that I see consciousness as limited by the mind only as the result of the way the brain functions .
By proposing one could blink themselves out of existence, are you suggesting you discount the aspect of biology as part of the illusion of "reality"?
I haven't encountered someone so committed to metaphysics before! its interesting. :)
If all reality is an illusion, then this is illusionary as well.
But my inability to alter that illusion via conscious decision to do so means I'll just go with it. *shrug*
I don't really feel committed to "anything", physics or metaphysics or pie!
... well... maybe the pie...
I am committed to pie... mmmm...
Quote from: kyle_lawrence on April 28, 2010, 10:26:09 AM
I'm working on it. Just waiting on a paycheck so I can get my license un-suspended. It's turning into a huge expensive hassle. 4 years ago I sold my car before I moved to Chicago, and with all the craziness of packing and selling it I completely forgot about a $5 parking ticket I got on the last day I owned the car. Didn't know about it till I tried to renew my licence, and was told It was suspended till I pay over $200.
Have you tried getting a VT license? I managed to get a WI driver's license despite having unpaid parking tickets in IL. (I didn't even remember them until I applied for a loan and discovered they had turned me over to a collections agency. :embarrassed: )
Quote from: Jamie-o on May 02, 2010, 12:18:02 AM
Have you tried getting a VT license? I managed to get a WI driver's license despite having unpaid parking tickets in IL. (I didn't even remember them until I applied for a loan and discovered they had turned me over to a collections agency. :embarrassed: )
I am trying to get a VT License. Unfortunately the parking ticket and fines are from VT, before I moved to Chicago. I never drove in IL at all.