There's something that's been eating at me lately. There's a transfellow I know who's been making himself my problem. He up and said behind my back that it hugely bothers him that I occasionally wear makeup (I wear lipstain and once in a while, eyeliner) and 'am gay'. (I'm pansexual.) In his own words,
'If you want to wear makeup and like guys, why become a man.'
Apparently the combination of these three things (wearing makeup, liking guys, being a man) don't compute in a way that infuriates others. What I don't understand is, it may be brow raising for some, for a cisguy to wear makeup and 'be gay', but it doesn't usually beg the question of 'why do you bother being a man, anyway?'... Does it? I've had similar arguments made to me by others; i.e., 'if you want to be a man, why do you sleep with guys/wear eyeliner/like Hello Kitty/insert arbitrary ->-bleeped-<- here?' For the record, I pass well enough; and whether or not I get called 'bro' or 'sir' or 'fella' by strangers seems more directly linked to the sound of my voice than whether I curled my eyelashes that morning or not.
What are your opinions on this? Does the idea of other transguys being 'femme' and NOT WANTing to help it piss you off? And what about those of you who DO like or use cosmetics or sleep with other guys? How do you feel about it, and how does it relate to your gender performance/identity(or not)?
If more guys knew the power of a little eyeliner, more would wear it. :laugh:
While I personally dislike makeup on myself, I have no probs if others, male or female, like it and wear it. Some guys look great in it when it's done right. BTW I am gay. :-*
I think it's just that they don't get the trans thing. I guess they see a cismale in makeup and think oh, he's feminine and likes feminine things, and is probably gay, but don't see why you, as someone born with an F body, wants to be a guy, who then likes makeup and feminine things. Kind of like, you're already F, so why can't you just be F and like makeup and girly stuff?
They don't get the gender identity thing at all.
Jay
I totally get where you're coming from. Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead with makeup on, (outside of Halloween makeup, of course!) but I was confused because I liked guys, and figured that meant I was a normal female. I've since learned that gender identity does not equate sexual orientation, so now it all makes sense to me.
QuoteWhat I don't understand is, it may be brow raising for some, for a cisguy to wear makeup and 'be gay', but it doesn't usually beg the question of 'why do you bother being a man, anyway?'
Exactly, it just doesn't make sense. So no, it doesn't bother me at all if a trans guy wants to wear makeup and be feminine. Everybody's personal tastes are their own.
Quote from: Cairus on May 02, 2010, 08:44:54 AM
What are your opinions on this? Does the idea of other transguys being 'femme' and NOT WANTing to help it piss you off? And what about those of you who DO like or use cosmetics or sleep with other guys? How do you feel about it, and how does it relate to your gender performance/identity(or not)?
Seems he doesn't understand that gender identity, gender expression, and sexual orientation are all separate things. It also appears he hasn't gotten out of the high school mentality of talking about someone behind their back (forgive me if you are still in high school :P).
There's nothing wrong or weird about being a femme gay/bisexual/pansexual transman. Being transgender has nothing to do with wearing some eyeliner and sleeping with guys. It's about who you really are on the inside.
Guys who wear makeup (trans or not) don't piss me off. I don't really like makeup on anyone, but that's my personal preference.
If I thought I could wear a little foundation and get away with it, I would though. My skin is so messed up because of T lol
The day I pass well enough to get away with a bit of makeup will be the happiest day of my life :P
boys in eyeliner are sexy :D
yeah that always bothered/confused me. like, don't you think that with all this (liking guys, wearing makeup, etc) that it would be more simple to 'stay female'? well since i dont stay 'this way' aka looking female, that should be more reason to show i am really male. huh, sorry if that don't make sense, i don't think i can quite explain what i am trying to say, maybe though. anyone understand?
I love eyeliner on guys. I love eyeliner on me. I am sexually attracted to men.
Trying to be a heterosexual woman was a miserable failure for me. If all it took was liking makeup (I do) and liking men (I do) I should be comfortable and happy by now.
I am not okay with having breasts. I am not okay with having a fertile (and bloody) womb. I am not okay with having a high female voice.
What I wear, or you or anyone else wears is a social invention. We're not born wearing pink skirts and lipstick, or blue pants and tighty whities. All I can do is roll my eyes at people who don't understand this.
Quote from: M.Grimm on May 03, 2010, 09:40:28 PM
What I wear, or you or anyone else wears is a social invention. We're not born wearing pink skirts and lipstick, or blue pants and tighty whities. All I can do is roll my eyes at people who don't understand this.
I wonder why so many people seem to not comprehend this. It's ridiculous, because it's so basic. That's just how hardwired stereotypes are.
I agree with Adio: Gender and orientation are 2 separate things.
I am attracted to women, but I don't feel confident with them because I don't feel like a lesbian, I feel like a male.
How is that any different with someone attracted to the same-sex when they change their gender?
It's only different if you don't believe homosexuality as a valid orientation.
If you feel like a man (or a woman) inside, it doesn't matter what sex you like, you won't probably feel confident when you act on your attraction.
Frankly, if you're pan-sexual, its even more valid to me, because you're internally wired to like both sexes no matter what gender you are, so in someways your sexuality isn't even an interference. Where in my case I had to ask myself if I just didn't want to be a lesbian, etc.
Another thing that's true for me, is I hate wearing makeup as a girl but I think as a male I'd enjoy it, because it wouldn't be me as a female wearing it.
I totally understand man.
I wear makeup sometimes.. and I am VERY gay lol.. I dont wear "girl" makeup.. its just, guyliner, and some punk stuff..
and it pisses me off when my friend gets mad at me for wearing it.. he says "you look like a girl, you wont pass with that on"
well, I want to be ME.. if I dont pass, then oh well, I only pass half the time anyway, why give up things I like?
Quote from: M.Grimm on May 03, 2010, 09:40:28 PM
I love eyeliner on guys. I love eyeliner on me. I am sexually attracted to men.
Trying to be a heterosexual woman was a miserable failure for me. If all it took was liking makeup (I do) and liking men (I do) I should be comfortable and happy by now.
I am not okay with having breasts. I am not okay with having a fertile (and bloody) womb. I am not okay with having a high female voice.
What I wear, or you or anyone else wears is a social invention. We're not born wearing pink skirts and lipstick, or blue pants and tighty whities. All I can do is roll my eyes at people who don't understand this.
Absolutely correct. Points to my pic. I like my eyeliner. And I'm not going to give it up for anyone, Trans or otherwise who has a cookie cutter idea of what 'a man' is. I also would like to know what the hell is so different from me or any other trans guy whereing a little makeup, then a cisgendered male.
Just cause I was born in a body I didn't choose I have no right to eyeliner? WTF? thats absoulte stupidity.
Also, when I wear eyeliner and do my hair, I pass more then if I did the "man thing" and tossed on a hat and no make up. When I do that I get read as a lesbian...yet that is the "man thing to do"
I'd rather get read as a Gay man with my eyeliner. Then a lesbian woman with no eyeliner.
Quote from: GothTranzboi on May 03, 2010, 11:49:38 PM
Absolutely correct. Points to my pic. I like my eyeliner. And I'm not going to give it up for anyone, Trans or otherwise who has a cookie cutter idea of what 'a man' is. I'd rather get read as a Gay man with my eyeliner. Then a lesbian woman with no eyeliner.
Here, here!
I'm glad you agree! Guys who have blue and green eyes look very striking in eyeliner too. :D
Yes, sexual orientation, gender identity, and expression, are all separate things- I think I remember a user on here even starting a thread about that at some point previously. Another thing this thread and conversations with others about this has lead me to wonder about, is the reverse- while men are expected to Not Wear Makeup as part of their 'manly duty' (and of course, seeing as to how FtMs are expected to be caricatures of masculinity 'otherwise why bother going through all that trouble of being a man in the first place', we get our special breed of bull->-bleeped-<-) women are expected to WEAR it because they are women.
I've noticed more than a couple of transwomen who have said wearing makeup is part of their transition 'to be a woman'; that they 'have to', otherwise they 'aren't trying hard enough to transition', or even not transitioning at all. (???) A close friend of mine was talking like this at one point, and I was confused, as I wear some makeup and it most certainly did not denote a 'journey into womanhood'. Apparently women get the same bull->-bleeped-<-, but in reverse. A cisgendered girl I've been around the last couple of weeks mentioned that she was reprimanded for not wearing makeup to work. She was told that she is 'supposed to' because it looks better, that without it she doesn't look as presentable. This would *never* have been said to her if she were a he.
You know... I bet that for every guy who wishes he could wear makeup without everyone giving him ->-bleeped-<- for it (me. me. me.) there's a girl who wishes she DIDN'T have to wear it all of the time.
Ironically I didn't care much for makeup as a girl and wore very little, 2 to three things on a really fem day lol. I guess because I felt it only enhanced the person I wasn't who seemed fake and female. Now it's part of who I am, and I like it.
I love wearing eyeliner, but I am so paranoid that people will think of me as a girl makes me think twice. I love my pink hair, my flamboyant outfits... It's things I'm abstaining from at the moment.
If it was so easy to be a female, to like make up, to like men, I would be happy and comfortable. There is so much to being male, physical and mentally. Who you are and what makes you comfortable in your skin is all you. I would love to be able to pull off my more femme stuff... I feel like I've killed off a part of who I am. I never mention anything 'gay' or 'girly' I like in public. No musicals, no Kitty-chan, no make up. (I have a pink bag and pink hair, though. I think I'd go insane if I went completely against myself, I'm way too open of a person.)
Although, on my opinion of makeup, I prefer the people under the make up, but I love someone who can wear it well. I will always prefer to fall in love with the person underneath the foundation rather than the perfect guy he shows to everyone else :)
I understand trying to do less because you want to be seen as male. I'm looking forward to T for that reason. As for loving a person for what's underneath, that is sweet and awesome. I wish everyone thought that way, LBGT or not.
Quote from: Cairus on May 04, 2010, 01:27:24 AM
I've noticed more than a couple of transwomen who have said wearing makeup is part of their transition 'to be a woman'; that they 'have to', otherwise they 'aren't trying hard enough to transition', or even not transitioning at all. (???) A close friend of mine was talking like this at one point, and I was confused, as I wear some makeup and it most certainly did not denote a 'journey into womanhood'. Apparently women get the same bull->-bleeped-<-, but in reverse. A cisgendered girl I've been around the last couple of weeks mentioned that she was reprimanded for not wearing makeup to work. She was told that she is 'supposed to' because it looks better, that without it she doesn't look as presentable. This would *never* have been said to her if she were a he.
I've heard that as well (about transwomen having to wear makeup or else they aren't really "trying hard enough"). Even some therapists think that, which is very sad to me.
Not all women wear makeup and, apparently, a good number of men do. I never wore makeup when I was presenting as female. I also never got in trouble for it. Questioned maybe, but no one ever gave me crap about it. I imagine it would different if I tried to do it now.
I guess there are a lot of shades of femininity in the male spectrum. I always considered myself moderately effeminate because my social group - my standard for comparison - was always lower-middle-class blue-collar American straight cis guys, many of whom are/were in the military. Put me up against your average city guy and it becomes obvious that the only thing that makes me seem feminine is the fact that I have a fairly small upper body and look 14. My childhood love of glitter is nothing when Robert Pattinson is heteronormatively sparkling all over the big screen. And my desire to wear pink shirts as a guy is kind of meaningless when they're selling them at Abercrombie.
That being said, I am gay. I'm actually visibly gay now - my husband and I are read as a same-sex couple when we walk down the street arm in arm, which I assume has to be odd for him. But it's something I'm proud of. I own my gayness in a way that I never owned being a straight girl. And anyone who says that I (or you, or anyone) can't be both gay and trans can stick their opinion where the sun don't shine.
If your friend has an open enough mind to read some stuff by a successfully-transitioned effeminate gay trans man (or if you want to read it yourself - this guy has a ton of good stuff to say) check out Not Aiden's blog here: http://www.notanotheraiden.com/ (http://www.notanotheraiden.com/). I'm particularly fond of these posts:
http://www.notanotheraiden.com/archives/life-of-a-gay-stealth-transman (http://www.notanotheraiden.com/archives/life-of-a-gay-stealth-transman)
http://www.notanotheraiden.com/archives/ftm-101-sex-sexuality-gender-gender-expression (http://www.notanotheraiden.com/archives/ftm-101-sex-sexuality-gender-gender-expression)
http://www.notanotheraiden.com/archives/internalized-transphobia (http://www.notanotheraiden.com/archives/internalized-transphobia)
Ah I've read his stuff. How awesome that your husband is so loving and supportive. That rocks. I'm glad you said that they can stick it as well, because I'm tired of the whole "Transguys Can't _________ because we were not born physically male.
It irks me when people, especially other gay people or trans folk pull the "if you're gonna be a man" card. I saw an exceptionally hot straight man the other day. He had long, rough hair, black eyeliner, red eyeshadow around the ey es, black and red nail polish....I dig that kinda thing. i'm gothic myself, so when I feel like it I wear black eyeliner or eyeshadow. Mostly when I'm performing, but sometimes just if I feel like it. There's nothing wrong with it. People are just trying to find ways to devalidate us as what gender we know we are inside. Ignore them. I try not to act too "gay", even at teh bar cause most of teh bar knows I"m trans so when we act gay...we usually get bitched out..."if you're gonna be a man"...why can't I be a gay man? eh?
Exactly, sometimes I feel like I am denied rights cause I wasn't born with cisgender parts. Oh red and black eh? thats funny I just did that a few days ago. I want to add red to my hair as well. Anyway thanks for posting!
I can't wait to grow some facial hair, so I can wear a bit of mascara when I go out. I was trying to explain this to my friend at school, she found it quite the conundrum. I have really long eyelashes and when I wear mascara they get so long they look fake. I like lots of body hair and glitter.
Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on May 04, 2010, 02:48:17 PM
It irks me when people, especially other gay people or trans folk pull the "if you're gonna be a man" card.
my stepdad did this to me once.. he told me to go shop at a certian store.. and I said the clothes there were ugly.. and he says "well, 'GUYS' don't care how they look" and I replied.. "WELL, I AM a guy, and I DO care how I look."
Quote from: Elijah on May 04, 2010, 08:04:26 PM
my stepdad did this to me once.. he told me to go shop at a certian store.. and I said the clothes there were ugly.. and he says "well, 'GUYS' don't care how they look" and I replied.. "WELL, I AM a guy, and I DO care how I look."
Not to be rude but....Honestly has he never seen a well dressed man before? Just because you don't want to look like a slob doesnt make you less of a man.
Quote from: GothTranzboi on May 04, 2010, 08:08:59 PM
Not to be rude but....Honestly has he never seen a well dressed man before? Just because you don't want to look like a slob doesnt make you less of a man.
Yeah, I bet he jumped at the first chance to do something like this to irritate you/deny your identity.
Elvistears: I have sideburns. And I still get called out sometimes, in spite of those. Even my drag dad who has massive sideburns and a bunch of facial hair got called a dyke in the men's room at a gay bar....which enrages me to a point I'd like to beat someone. Facial hair doesn't always change how people percieve you. But when people call me a...yeah...I just point to the sideburns like look here...person....
Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on May 05, 2010, 03:12:18 PM
Elvistears: I have sideburns. And I still get called out sometimes, in spite of those. Even my drag dad who has massive sideburns and a bunch of facial hair got called a dyke in the men's room at a gay bar....which enrages me to a point I'd like to beat someone. Facial hair doesn't always change how people percieve you. But when people call me a...yeah...I just point to the sideburns like look here...person....
No offense, but there are a lot of girls with sideburns and facial hair. Just because you or you drag dad has facial hair doesn't automatically mean you pass. I'm sorry he got called a dyke. But getting that angry about it can cloud your insight into the real reasons why people are misgendering you.
Meh, I don't see the issue with make up.
I don't use it because I look yet even more feminine than i do (read: i don't pass worth a flying->-bleeped-<-, and i know this lol)
But the 'if youre gonna be, you gotta do X, Y, Z", seriously? I reconize not acting like a girl, but there are so many feminine guys out there who aren't misgendered because of it. What's the deal?
yep, I have two words....Emo guys. But noooo Trans guys arn't allowed.
Quote from: Adio on May 05, 2010, 06:09:17 PM
No offense, but there are a lot of girls with sideburns and facial hair. Just because you or you drag dad has facial hair doesn't automatically mean you pass. I'm sorry he got called a dyke. But getting that angry about it can cloud your insight into the real reasons why people are misgendering you.
Wow, Adio, where do you live? I don't think I've ever seen a woman with full on SIDEBURNS or a 'beard' that was anything more than the wispiest peach fuzz who wasn't transidentified, to my knowledge. Certainly not with regularity? (Not that there's anything wrong with it, but I'm surprised to hear it considered 'common'.)
Thanks for the links, Kyril, read and bookmarked.
@Cairus: In the south. The deep south. I have no idea why these women don't shave it off. But it's very noticeable and certainly not just peach fuzz. One of my best friends my freshman year of college had a very dark mustache, some sideburns, and light (but still visible) chin hairs growing. I can't tell you how many times I wanted to tell her to shave/wax it off. I was also very envious lol.
But there is another girl who I see at the hospital sometimes and wow. That is a sight to see. It's not even just sideburns but a beard coming in. And, no, she isn't trans.
So I can understand people saying "she" even when they see masculine traits like facial hair. Because some women have it too. I just noticed that he (zombies) expresses a lot of anger about getting misgendered (not just in this thread but in others as well). And I thought he should be aware that more than just men can have facial hair/sideburns, that there might be other factors into why he isn't passing.
Quote from: Adio on May 07, 2010, 11:47:10 PM
@Cairus: In the south. The deep south. I have no idea why these women don't shave it off. But it's very noticeable and certainly not just peach fuzz. One of my best friends my freshman year of college had a very dark mustache, some sideburns, and light (but still visible) chin hairs growing. I can't tell you how many times I wanted to tell her to shave/wax it off. I was also very envious lol.
I'm in the south too, and there was a girl in my class with sideburns, and another girl with a very visible and rather thick mustache... im not talking huge mustache, but it was wayyy more then peach fuzz... and I agree, why dont they shave it? They cant possibly look in the mirror and think "ok all good here.." lol wtf
I personally am loving how the gender roles are meshing more and more as time goes on, particularly in the arena of fashion. The fact that guys can wear bright colors, skin tight clothes, and makeup is a beautiful thing.
It does not dismiss gender identity at all to me, if someone wants to wear make up as a trans-man.
Even if someone wanted to dress as a woman, as a trans-man, it wouldn't make a difference.
The whole point of being trans, is you identify with a different gender.
If you still want to be a man, even as fashion is becoming more and more unisex, it is simply making the point that gender is something separate from the cliche societal roles that people tend to define it as.
I don't personally wear it, but I did a lot as a teen, and was mistaken as a boy more often. lol