It would be helpful to know what depth is possible to achieve through the surgery itself and post op care. Afterwards can you increase it or only maintain? It seems like such an unknown to us going into the surgery. When I and another petite girl asked Dr. Brassard, he says well you are small girls both in frame and size, so that will affect the depth. During the consultation he told me I could expect around 5" or so.
Looking at my dilator markings today measuring from the top down, I visually translated my length to be currently 5" with 5 1/2" to nearly 6" when measuring from the side of the labia.
Here are some questions for possible discussion:
1) What are the factors that will determine your vaginal depth?
2) Does depth change over time?
3) If it changes, does it increase or decrease?
4) Does dilation schedule or technique affect it?
5) What is the best way to measure depth/length?
6) How important is it to you?
Note: One very tall girl (over 6'5") who was my hospital roommate having surgery the same week as I, reported depth well over 6". She was able to surpass all the dilator markings. And she says she had a very small penis to work with. She was very happy with her result. That makes me think that pelvis size is a factor ...i.e. how much area there is between the bladder and rectum. She thinks her skin was able to stretch much further than her penis size.
Quote from: Valeriedances on May 06, 2010, 11:09:26 AM
4) Does dilation schedule or technique affect it?
My guess is dilation period will affect depth which is why every surgeon is adamant about it
Quote
6) How important is it to you?
Depth is important to me even though I'm not really interested in pursuing a relationship of any sort. I would be happy with 5-6 inches and I would work diligently to maintain it just in case.
Quote
Note: One very tall girl (over 6'5") who was my hospital roommate having surgery the same week as I, reported depth well over 6". She was able to surpass all the dilator markings. And she says she had a very small penis to work with. She was very happy with her result. That makes me think that pelvis size is a factor ...i.e. how much area there is between the bladder and rectum. She thinks her skin was able to stretch much further than her penis size.
Pelvis size is definitely a factor. I recall reading of a unique case where a surgeon was unable to construct a neo-vagina due to the patients pelvis being far too narrow--an absolute first in the history of srs
1. How much raw material you had to start with.
2. How elastic your skin is (my inital bits were TINY but luckily I had exceptionally elastic skin).
3. How good your surgeon is/was.
4. How diligently you dilate.
Anything over 5 1/2 inches is considered good.
As I can lose the entire dilator up to the hilt so that it is difficult to grip and pull out I conclude that I have rather more than that probably around 7 to 7 1/2 inches.
Is it important?
Well as most men would require a depth of at least 5 inches to avoid "bottoming out" 5 1/2 inches is the magic figure if you want to have heterosexual sex without any difficulties - so yes it's important to that extent. The extra inches are actally a liability - they make dilation more tricky, the top of the vagina becomes impossible to probe with the finger to check for any problems - and it makes hygine more important. Also you need a big man to please you!
Adequate girth is probably just as important though.
How difficult is it to maintain - just have a regular sex life and dilate about once a week to make sure - 26 years - no loss of depth.
Quote from: Valeriedances on May 06, 2010, 12:45:34 PM
How tall are you Jenny? do you think your frame was a factor in achieving such a wonderful depth? Yaay for elastic skin. I'm guessing having surgery at such a young age helped there. For me, my poor old skin has challenges now, heh.
Going to the end of the dilator, wow, amazing.
Not really - as I say it's actually a bit of a liability. And like an idiot I lived for 26 years with a result that cosmetically looked a bit like a nasty accident in a butchers shop - because he used so much time and material creating all that depth that my labia and other bits were incredibly basic. Fortunately the surgeon who did my revision managed to rectify matters pretty well by borrowing material from the wider groin area.
I'm just under 5 foot 8 inches in my stockings. I do have a fairly wide and deep pelvis but I read somewhere that there is a fixed size sack of space inside the body where the surgeon can locate the vaginal canal so I guess mine was just big.
I don't think frame per-se is the factor - its rather more a case of how your guts are arranged internally because obviously they can't get too close to the intestines for risk of a fistula.
I know when I was healing the one big problem I had was that for about three months I had agonising pain about 20 or 30 minutes before having to pass a "number 2" My doctor said it might be indicative that there was some internal adhesion but luckily it settled down.
Bottom line is if you have anything over 5 inches don't worry - the average man is not much more that 8 inches when errect and you lose 3 inches in the space between the two bodies - so 5 inches or above is pretty safe.
Quotec. Surgical technique
probably just a note on my part since I'll be stuck with whatever I get (average to less working materials) and I'm a med student, is the way it's done.
a straight inversion (like in this old bellringer pic) will make less with the same materials
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transgenderzone.com%2Flibrary%2Fsrs%2FImage18.jpg&hash=94ba76dfe07647e755d52baac90536b19920e6e2)
while suporn can get more with the same (since less material goes the way of the biohazard bag)
supposedly dilation will gain a little bit, but probably from what the material can stretch to rather then magic gains.
from other threads I
think the only real gains/losses are dilation related.
not that I care about depth, but i'll be measuring by grasping the stent at the furthest point in, and measuring the stent from tip to thumb (using a construction tape measure).
It would seem to have a lot to do with one's internal structure more than anything else.
I have had 4 to 5" for 36 years (starting with VERY minimal material!) It increases slightly with vigorous sexual activity but not much. Since my current boyfriend is .... shall we say .... "above average" I talked to Montreal about improving depth and was told there isn't much they can do since the maximum normally attainable by surgery is about 5".
That's what they told me and I assume they know more than I do.
In discussing "depth" with GG's on-line, the general suggestions seemed to be practice and find a different position.
Quote from: Northern Jane on May 06, 2010, 04:56:46 PM
It would seem to have a lot to do with one's internal structure more than anything else.
I have had 4 to 5" for 36 years (starting with VERY minimal material!) It increases slightly with vigorous sexual activity but not much. Since my current boyfriend is .... shall we say .... "above average" I talked to Montreal about improving depth and was told there isn't much they can do since the maximum normally attainable by surgery is about 5".
That's what they told me and I assume they know more than I do.
In discussing "depth" with GG's on-line, the general suggestions seemed to be practice and find a different position.
I'm just 'curious' but when ur intimate with him does he have problems I guess 'inside'? sorry for be personal.
Quote from: Northern Jane on May 06, 2010, 04:56:46 PM
I talked to Montreal about improving depth and was told there isn't much they can do since the maximum normally attainable by surgery is about 5".
That's what they told me and I assume they know more than I do.
I would seriously talk to them again - sadly I can't post photos as they would be seriously indecent but a dilator is about 8 inches long and I can lose pretty well ALL of it - honestly I am NOT exagerating here - with a bit of effort the maximum diameter dilator goes in to within a finger width (about 1 centimeter or less) of the very end. So much so that on occasion when it has been covered with lube I have had difficulty pulling it out.
I am living proof that more than 5 inches IS possible and I can absolutely prove it photographically (in private) if required.
I'm sooo slow lol. How do you know how much depth you have? are there like numbers on the dilator? haha ???
Quote from: MsGiselle on May 06, 2010, 05:59:57 PM
I'm sooo slow lol. How do you know how much depth you have? are there like numbers on the dilator? haha ???
to be honest I'm not sure. I've seen straight stents with depth markings and one with nothing. mine has dimples and nothing more to indicate size.
I'll measure and edit this post.
edit:
soulsource stent set
#1 about 8.5" long, markings per half inch starting at 3.75" to 5.75"
#2 is same as #1 but wider
#3 is oddly 1/4 inch shorter overall with the same markings as #1
#4 is "normal" size, same markings
Basically you mark the point at which the dilator protrudes - you then measure the overall length of the dilator and measure the distance that is protruding subtracting it from the overall length.
What remains is the depth of the vagina. As flan says most dilators are about 8 inches long. so if you have a half inch left protruding that implies a depth of seven and a hlaf inches. Simple.
Quote from: Valeriedances on May 07, 2010, 12:30:00 AM
Well, 'enamored' is definitely not how I feel about it. It's a bloody, painful mess still is what it is, pretty much an open wound. I've lost 1/2" or more since the start of dilation, hence the simple question. Unfortunately, the nurses did not go over it well enough.
Which I think you will find comes back when everything ceases to be swollen. Just keep dilating...
I found that it all "constricted" and tightened inside at one point and then one day, almost overnight, suddenly it loosened up.
As to where you measure from I don't know the answer. I measure from the top.
I return however to my original point which is that anything over 5.5 inches is pretty much irrelevant as most men will never need it.
Quote from: MsGiselle on May 06, 2010, 05:03:56 PM
I'm just 'curious' but when ur intimate with him does he have problems I guess 'inside'? sorry for be personal.
No problem. He is a bit over 8" so he "hits bottom" in some positions and he can feel it. Lacking the elasticity of a GG, that's as far as she goes.
Never thought of including a length limit on my "must have" dating list LOL! It has never been a problem before. :o
Quote from: Northern Jane on May 07, 2010, 04:35:29 AM
No problem. He is a bit over 8" so he "hits bottom" in some positions and he can feel it. Lacking the elasticity of a GG, that's as far as she goes.
Never thought of including a length limit on my "must have" dating list LOL! It has never been a problem before. :o
I'm very curious as well. Is this painful for you or him hitting bottom? Does it happen every time or only occasionally.
My cousin is a GG and she says that she has had guys bottom out on her.
Quote from: rejennyrated on May 06, 2010, 06:39:19 PM
Basically you mark the point at which the dilator protrudes - you then measure the overall length of the dilator and measure the distance that is protruding subtracting it from the overall length.
What remains is the depth of the vagina. As flan says most dilators are about 8 inches long. so if you have a half inch left protruding that implies a depth of seven and a hlaf inches. Simple.
Okay gotcha thank you..
I would say that I'm about 5". I've never had a problem, and I've been with a few guys who were bigger. It doesn't hurt me when they bottom out (did at first, but after I got used to it and liked it). A lot depends on the position your in. It happens to GG's too.
That's what I kept trying to tell you. I don't know why mine is so far off the norm - but it really doesn't carry any advantage.
Glad you feel reassured now. :)
1) http://ts-si.org/files/FeminizingGenitoplastyInAdultTranssexualsEarlyAnd.pdf (http://ts-si.org/files/FeminizingGenitoplastyInAdultTranssexualsEarlyAnd.pdf)
2) http://www.springerlink.com/content/5f0drrqq7lt13llu/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/5f0drrqq7lt13llu/)
I am 5' 9" and, according to my second wife, had smallish-normal male equipment (she had lots of experience to compare it to), but I think she may have meant girth rather than length.
I started out with about 6½" and am now down to about 6". (I can usually barely see the top dot on the Soul Source dilator when I use a mirror and flashlight, looking along the top of the dilator into my vagina.) Bowers claims that you can never get more and can get less depth through neglect. I think that I lost the ½" on the trip home when I didn't dilate mid-day.
One of my surgery partners was a tiny woman (size 0 dress). She said she started with only 4".
According to several of my GG friends, penis girth is far more important than length. If all that stuff down there ever stops being sore, and I can find a cute, clean man who is attracted to older, slightly masculine women, I'll let you know. >:-)
- Kate
Soon size #10 will be wanted ;)
Size #10! :o :o :o
One of the nurses said to give the dilator a little twist back and forth toward the end to get deeper. It seems to give me another quarter inch. (I just wiggle it in a twisting motion, about an eigth inch in each direction. Then I hold it in with light pressure.)
Now if the dilator was covered with skin and had a nice man attached to it...
- Kate
Quote from: K8 on May 14, 2010, 07:23:13 AM
Size #10! :o :o :o
One of the nurses said to give the dilator a little twist back and forth toward the end to get deeper. It seems to give me another quarter inch. (I just wiggle it in a twisting motion, about an eigth inch in each direction. Then I hold it in with light pressure.)
Now if the dilator was covered with skin and had a nice man attached to it...
- Kate
easy, go to club, take off pants in middle club, and lay down
Quote from: K8 on May 14, 2010, 07:23:13 AM
Size #10! :o :o :o
One of the nurses said to give the dilator a little twist back and forth toward the end to get deeper. It seems to give me another quarter inch. (I just wiggle it in a twisting motion, about an eigth inch in each direction. Then I hold it in with light pressure.)
That's basically what my dilation manual says:
Quote from: Papillon Center Dilation ManualAs you are dilating, pretend you have come to a closed door, and are checking to see if it is locked. THIS is the same twisting/pushing motion that works best. Gentle twisting is important to keep the dilator on course, but always keep the white dots facing the ceiling....
The area most prone to shrinking is the ring where the scrotal graft is attached to the inverted penile skin. If you experience difficulty dilating this area, try more lubrication along with a twisting motion, while firm inward pressure is applied.
so I guess that means it's better to have a boyfriend who can dance lol
Quote from: FairyGirl on May 17, 2010, 09:19:03 PM
That's basically what my dilation manual says:
so I guess that means it's better to have a boyfriend who can dance lol
ooooouuu you went to the Pappillon center? Do you think mcginn is hot? I kinda got a crush on her hahahh **whistles
yes she's quite beautiful, very hot I guess if you like girls lol
Quote from: FairyGirl on May 17, 2010, 10:41:36 PM
yes she's quite beautiful, very hot I guess if you like girls lol
I like guys but she is really hot in admiration
yes hon I was just teasing you and I agree :P She's also very intelligent, witty, compassionate, and dedicated to excellence in her craft. After meeting with her I had no doubts about going with her as my surgeon.
sweet ps i love that shirt your wearing in the pictures, its like a 70's style and I think the era as arose again
I really wanted to go see Mcginn for my revision work as she sounds excellent and it would have given me the perfect excuse to vist the US and Canada for a holiday.
Sadly on her website it stated very firmly that she won't deal with anyone over a BMI of 30 and I am, just outside that range. So even though my own doctor agrees that, in my case the figure is missleading and describing me as obese is wrong, I couldn't take the risk of turning up and having Mcginn turn me down!
Worked ok though Bellringer did a good job too.
Quote from: rejennyrated on May 18, 2010, 07:11:19 AM
Sadly on her website it stated very firmly that she won't deal with anyone over a BMI of 30 and I am, just outside that range. So even though my own doctor agrees that, in my case the figure is missleading and describing me as obese is wrong, I couldn't take the risk of turning up and having Mcginn turn me down!
That is kind a funny in a way. I had a 28" waist but wieghed 185. A doctor at the time wrote obese in my med records. Grrr.
Quote from: rejennyrated on May 06, 2010, 12:32:42 PM
1. How much raw material you had to start with.
2. How elastic your skin is (my inital bits were TINY but luckily I had exceptionally elastic skin).
3. How good your surgeon is/was.
4. How diligently you dilate.
Anything over 5 1/2 inches is considered good.
As I can lose the entire dilator up to the hilt so that it is difficult to grip and pull out I conclude that I have rather more than that probably around 7 to 7 1/2 inches.
Is it important?
Well as most men would require a depth of at least 5 inches to avoid "bottoming out" 5 1/2 inches is the magic figure if you want to have heterosexual sex without any difficulties - so yes it's important to that extent. The extra inches are actally a liability - they make dilation more tricky, the top of the vagina becomes impossible to probe with the finger to check for any problems - and it makes hygine more important. Also you need a big man to please you!
Adequate girth is probably just as important though.
How difficult is it to maintain - just have a regular sex life and dilate about once a week to make sure - 26 years - no loss of depth.
I concur with this answer.
I would agree that the space in the pelvic floor, the penile, scrotal, and other grafted material that is used are factors, as is your surgeon's ability and your adherence to good post surgical after-care.
I just had my surgery on Wednesday, two days ago and Dr. Bowers informed that while everything went exceptionally well, she couldn't get me quite as much depth as she had expected. She said while I had sufficient penile material, she had run out of scrotal material :P So I can expect about 5.5 inches at best. ;/ I was dreaming of 7 inches. oh well.
For me it was not that i did not have enough material, because i did, Dr. Mcginn did not want to push the envelope due to me being diabetic and diabetics usually have less blood flow in that area and thus slower healing, my diabetes has been under control for many years and i healed as if i never had it, i got about 4", but you know what, i am not unhappy, it looks like a vagina plus it is not a penis.
Paula
Not sure if this should be a new thread or not, but I'm curious about how many genetic girls have the same issue. I know their vaginas are more flexible, but not sure about the depth issue. I had a male friend tell me that he and his girlfriend had some issues with this because he is a bit long, and she would fill pain if he was not careful (trying not to be to graphic).
If the male partner is longer than the neo vagina depth, is it a case of experiencing pain if forced, or more of just not going any further? I guess I'm trying to understand how big of an issue this is and how much it affects intimacy.
Anyone who got 5" of depth approx and kept it and is pain and complication free should be thankful!
This 'inch greed' is like OCD in trans women.
These sex starved ladies just need some real action instead of counting increments.
There's this " bloke I knew", who had comments from partners about hitting bottom. Apparently it wasn't painful, but was a bit uncomfortable. :-\ So I guess I have no worries on that count :laugh:.
It is good to hear other's stories, as it is reassuring that what I am planning to do is the right thing. Despite being Les, I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a strap on that is too big! :o
Karen.
Maybe one point. If one 'bottoms out' with a gg, one 'knocks' the cervix --- and that is most often painful. The name for doing so repeated time is: "wombing".
If a gg has a hysterectomy it be a bit more similar to a tg but I would say still some more flexible. Hitting 'bottom' will not displace and pull on the uterus muscular 'suspension' so it be different. Though I never asked.
With a tg there is an anatomical depth that varies from person to person's male skeleton/pelvis. I'm told when the initial opening is made for the vj channel, the surgeon uses his fingers to go in as deep as is possible. In fact will then find a firm resistance if maximum depth is reached.
So in some cases it be only 4" - 5" in others it may be some more like 6" - 7". It seems to depend more on one's internal pelvic configuration then anything else.
GGs by having a different pelvic (more bowl) shape will be deeper, IF aroused and no other problems be present. Normal gg depth is also only about 4" (up to the cervix). You don't need to be a doctor to actually know THAT.
My current understanding,
Axelle
I believe, I could be wrong. Your weight has a lot to do with it. I've GAINED A LOT of weight since my surgery. i've now JUST GOTTEN to 4 inches of depth.
Quote from: Hayley Rivka on September 09, 2011, 07:19:42 AM
I just had my surgery on Wednesday, two days ago and Dr. Bowers informed that while everything went exceptionally well, she couldn't get me quite as much depth as she had expected. She said while I had sufficient penile material, she had run out of scrotal material :P So I can expect about 5.5 inches at best. ;/ I was dreaming of 7 inches. oh well.
So as it turns out, now that I've started dilating, i'm actually 6-6.5 inches in depth. Horay! Right? Well not so fast! Apparently she said she was able to get me a bit wider so she started me on the second size stent but when I insert it, I feel it actually hitting my hip bones in my butt!!! I dont think I will ever be able to graduate to the next size stent!!!! She's having me come in tomorrow morning to check but the pain or discomfort I feel doesn't primarily come from the stretching of the vagina, rather its pressing against my bones on either side on the inside!!! Ouch!! I can't shift or move and there's no where else for the thing to go. I may just be stuck at blue.
I am married to a woman so we theoretically dont have to worry much about a penis size but you never know when a penis might present itself........ It would have to be so thin! :(
To be honest, I had dreams of handling a huge...um....yeah. (some friends of mine have boyfriends that are that endowed and its difficult not to be a bit jealous.)
It took me several months to gain to full width, and even then I didn't get sufficiently "stretched" until I started having sex with men. In my opinion they make the best dilators EV-ER (maybe it's the dynamic action lol). I was most diligent to not lose any depth however, as that was most important to me. I also still have the depth I started with so haven't lost any.
Dynamic cis-dilators are being THE best, eh ---- girls, where will I get one of these?! Help!
Eish ;-)
Axelle
Thinking about the 3 factors that apparently makes a difference for depth (amount of skin, size of pelvis, surgeon's ability), I wonder if one has more weight than the other?
Honestly I'm kinda pissed off that I had about 6'' of penile skin (stretching it) but I ended up with less than 4'' depth. I'm quite tall (6'2'') and not really over weighted (before the surgery I had about 185 Lbs). And I have no idea about my pelvic size ::)
I know the technique used on me had no grafts, was a flap only, and I'm really really disappointed (I cry every time I dilate when I see I cant reach the minimum number on the scale on my dilator - 4''). I have been dreaming that the swelling could be interfering with that, but maybe that's just me being in denial. I have a checkup tomorrow and I will inquire my surgeon about it
Flavia
Quote from: missF on September 15, 2011, 12:17:09 PM
(I cry every time I dilate when I see I cant reach the minimum number on the scale on my dilator - 4'')
I'm sorry you had such disappointing results!! Did your surgeon have anything to say about it?
Well, she said the muscle inside can be quite swollen, which can mask the results. Her speculum went through quite well, but, hmm, it's a bit thinner than the size 1 dilator I have. However she ensured me I won't have problems with most of men, and even if they hit the "end" - or botton, or...?(i don't know if this is the correct way to say, english is not my 1st language) it wouldn't be a big deal. She said it with such confidence that at least made me feel a bit less miserable :)
I actually can now reach something between 4-4 1/2'', maybe it's also about proper insertion of the dilator...
There are some areas in the entrance of my vagina that are a bit "scratchy" (again, damn poor english!), I can actually feel when I clean it and they advised me to not dilate yet. Like I said somewhere in some other post, here in Finland they want the wounds to heal well before starting dilation. Since no grafts are used, there is a less tendency to lose width and depth (on the other hand, max depth that can be achieved is very limited as well).
Um, that sounds a bit scary!! Part of the point of dilation is that your vagina is now like an open wound and is constantly trying to close up. Dilation is meant to keep it from "healing" shut!! If you wait too long it could be gone!!!
Quote from: Hayley Rivka on September 26, 2011, 11:33:13 AM
Um, that sounds a bit scary!! Part of the point of dilation is that your vagina is now like an open wound and is constantly trying to close up. Dilation is meant to keep it from "healing" shut!! If you wait too long it could be gone!!!
Well, not this wound ;) I know it sounds scary. I was as well before hand. Talking with other girls who did the surgery all of them said they had no problems starting the dilation later. Like I said, usually the technique used here uses mainly flaps only, so despite the risk of losing width and depth still exists, it's much lower than graft techniques.
And since yesterday I noticed I am reaching 5'' with #2 :icon_dance: I guess the early bad results were mainly due swollen tissues and muscles...
Is tehre any website where I could read about the different techniques, their pro and cons?
Quote from: FairyGirl on September 15, 2011, 02:19:16 AM
It took me several months to gain to full width, and even then I didn't get sufficiently "stretched" until I started having sex with men. In my opinion they make the best dilators EV-ER (maybe it's the dynamic action lol).
Thats absolutely true, I have a set of dilators I seldom use, Im now married to a well endowed guy, he's my dilator, Iv about 6 inchs depth, sometimes my vagina feels tight when he's fully errect, but when he bottoms out and relaxs, the best ditator is with a real man, I love the intimacy, its times like this I just love being a woman.
p
Quote from: Bird on September 26, 2011, 04:38:27 PM
Is tehre any website where I could read about the different techniques, their pro and cons?
http://www.x-girls.com.cn/presentation.rar (http://www.x-girls.com.cn/presentation.rar)
This is non-inversion technique, all penile flap is used to construct the external appearance, only the skin graft is used to construct the vagina. External appearance and sensation on the lips are the most important, whereas the vagina only concerned depth, so this method make the most sense.