Ive been thinking (risky i know) and im struggling to figure how the trans community will ever get accepted into mainstream society. Transwomen want to be treated as women and trans men want to be treated as men (thats kind of the point) but this leads to most cis-gendered folk only seeing the trans people who dont pass as those who do tend to try and distance themselves from their past. It all boils down to what is best for the individuals not being best for the community.
I dunno if i have explaiend what i mean very well but ill leave it open to discussion
I think it'll take time but eventually is won't be so hard for people to accept us. It's worked for many other communities, our time will come.
Quote from: El on May 11, 2010, 05:51:12 AM
Ive been thinking (risky i know) and im struggling to figure how the trans community will ever get accepted into mainstream society. Transwomen want to be treated as women and trans men want to be treated as men (thats kind of the point) but this leads to most cis-gendered folk only seeing the trans people who dont pass as those who do tend to try and distance themselves from their past. It all boils down to what is best for the individuals not being best for the community.
I dunno if i have explaiend what i mean very well but ill leave it open to discussion
This is a peculiar comment, I don't understand the basis for these statements.. How do you
know how society will change? Society's opinion on specific kinds of people are always changing, for example women.. Also, homosexuality was once considered illegal and then a "disorder" at different points in time - now theres nothing wrong with homosexuality ;D
Societies morals change as the society evolves
yes but gay men and women have no problem being visible and productive in society, when a trans person gets to a certain point in transition they often go under the radar, leaving the only members of the community for lay-people to see being the extravagent, too much make-up sequined dress drag queens, streetworkers and showgirls. Before i started my transtion i had never knowingly met a transgendered person, only seen negative stereotypes on the TV.
I never said i know how society will change btw.
Post Merge: May 12, 2010, 04:00:51 AM
Oh and you must be blind to think that homosexuality is totally accepted today, sure its a hell of a lot better than it was, but when i was in school (not that long ago) the most common insults were "gay" "poof" "->-bleeped-<-got", and in my local town i would say 75% of the alcohol serving establishments would not be a safe place for 2 men to kiss.
I dunno I think the more successful people they see living happy fullfilling lives, the more they will try to accept it. Here's to hoping? :)
Wait for old people to die. If you look at attitudes towards gays and gender gifted individuals by age, then those 6o+ tend to hate us. They were brought up that way, they have never met an openly gay person, they tend to follow church teachings, they are resistant to change. Unfortunately they have a record of voting in high numbers. As you drop down in age groups you start to see major changes in attitudes. These people are more resistant to religious blandishments, open to new ideas, and have seen "Will and Grace" and other positive gay role models. They tend to vote in fewer numbers however. Those in their 20's and early 30's hardly care. BUT, they don't vote so much. Now, who do politicians like to court? People who vote, i.e. old bigoted people. So, the lesson is this, the day before an election: go out and kill some old people, take their voters cards, and vote for them, the way you see fit.
Quote from: El on May 12, 2010, 03:57:09 AMOh and you must be blind to think that homosexuality is totally accepted today
Wow was it necessary to insult me? Saying things like that makes you come across as an aggrissive person, you ought to learn how to be compassionate and patient like a woman because such masculine rage made you completely misunderstand the point I made in my comment..
Allow me to enlighten you on what I meant in my comment about homosexuals:
Quotehomosexuality was once considered illegal and then a "disorder" at different points in time - now theres nothing wrong with homosexuality ;D
The comment said the following statements:
(1) Homosexuality was once considered illegal - In 2003 homosexual activities were made legal in America nationwide (thanks to the bible belt for making things difficult!), for UK and Canada, homosexuality was made legal in 1969.
(2) Homosexuality was once considered a disorder - In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association declassified homosexuality as a mental disorder. The American Psychological Association Council of Representatives followed in 1975.
(3) Homosexuality is now considered perfectly natural - I don't care about homophobia anecdotes, for bigoted people are only a very small fraction of society as a whole.
I was saying that (1), (2) and (3) are all true, imposing these facts onto transexuality and suggesting that transexuality would eventually be declassified as a mental disorder..
That was my contribution to the topic, have I proven myself to you yet?
I think the problem is that on this site we all come from different countries.
Those of us in the UK are fortunate in that over here most things are pretty widely well tolerated. Even as someone who was openly trans in my 1960's childhood and who finally had SRS in the early 80's I have had very little hostility in my life on account of my history. Consequently through I did pretty well adopt stealth in my early postop years I have since come back out again as there seems to be little point in hiding something which is so well accepted.
However some people on this site live in countries where even being gay is still considered a major issue, and from what I hear on this site in some parts America being trans is still pretty darned difficult.
So the problem with this type of discussion is that it becomes a classic YMMV situation, where our situations and experiences will vary so widely as to make some level of misunderstanding inevitable.
I think from what I have gathered that El is in a country where there is some strong religious influence still involved in society, in a way that we in the UK simply don't experience. Here in the Uk the religious crowd have been pretty comprehensively removed from any serious influence and are widely regarded as pretty irrelevant by most of british society.
Hence the differences in perception. Little Dragon is certainly correct from a UK perspective - over here homosexuality is a real non issue and being trans is getting to be the same way very rapidly indeed. In other parts of the world I gather that it still has some way to go.
Quote from: rejennyrated on May 12, 2010, 12:51:09 PMHere in the Uk the religious crowd have been pretty comprehensively removed from any serious influence and are widely regarded as pretty irrelevant by most of british society.
As it rightly should! :)
Quote from: rejennyrated on May 12, 2010, 12:51:09 PMHere in the Uk the religious crowd have been pretty comprehensively removed from any serious influence and are widely regarded as pretty irrelevant by most of british society.
That's pretty much the attitude in Australia too, one of the reasons I love it here so much. :)
Quote from: rejennyrated on May 12, 2010, 12:51:09 PM
Here in the Uk the religious crowd have been pretty comprehensively removed from any serious influence and are widely regarded as pretty irrelevant by most of british society.
That sounds like heaven to me. (pun intended ;D)
Quote from: Little Dragon on May 12, 2010, 12:23:45 PM
Wow was it necessary to insult me? Saying things like that makes you come across as an aggrissive person, you ought to learn how to be compassionate and patient like a woman because such masculine rage made you completely misunderstand the point I made in my comment..
I can see you were upset when you posted this - but this statement is massively prejudiced. Men are equally capable of being compassionate and patient as women, and women are capable of rage as much as men.
Quote from: rejennyrated on May 12, 2010, 12:51:09 PM
Hence the differences in perception. Little Dragon is certainly correct from a UK perspective - over here homosexuality is a real non issue and being trans is getting to be the same way very rapidly indeed. In other parts of the world I gather that it still has some way to go.
I live in a very liberal area of a large city in the uk. I would agree that homosexuality is not much of anissue where I live, but there are many areas where it is far from tolerated. I grew up in a conservative suburban midlands town, two men kissing in a town centre pub there would be lucky to make it out in one piece!
Hell, 100 years ago women were seen as decidedly inferior to men. It too two world wars, the suffragettes, the 60's and 70's to even start making headway in that.
Generally things are getting better, I certainly remember how attitudes have changed towards homosexuality, it's pretty much a non event in the UK these days...of course there are always bigots, but then bigots don't really need any excuse to be bigoted, just some small or perceived difference to latch onto to be bigoted about.
Change will come, it'll just take time. Anyway, as soon as scientists code into our DNA the ability to change our sex at will just by thinking about it, gender will become a non-issue.
Quote from: saint on May 13, 2010, 01:47:56 AMI would agree that homosexuality is not much of anissue where I live, but there are many areas where it is far from tolerated. I grew up in a conservative suburban midlands town, two men kissing in a town centre pub there would be lucky to make it out in one piece!
I'm sure that most homophobes keep their intolerance to themselves and you only hear about the few people who choose to express their intolerances through physical violence.. When I think about it, it is kind of annoying to get frowned at whenever I kiss my boyfriend in public :S There must be a lot more homophobia than what there appears to be. I just hope for a future where society accepts homosexuals as perfectly normal people, then hopefully transexuality shall swiftly follow suit ;D
I've never never experienced transphobia, however, only homophobia and..... longhair-phobia :(
Does being harassed for confusing gender appearence count as transphobia?
Quote from: Little Dragon on May 12, 2010, 12:23:45 PM
Wow was it necessary to insult me? Saying things like that makes you come across as an aggrissive person, you ought to learn how to be compassionate and patient like a woman because such masculine rage made you completely misunderstand the point I made in my comment..
Woh, wasnt meaning to insult you, calm down, i was just trying to say that there is still huge amounts of prejudice towards gay people in some places. Im not disputing its a lot better than it was.
Im not an aggressive person lol, if you are actively looking for a fight, look elsewhere, ill just back down XD
Quote from: El on May 13, 2010, 10:42:56 AM
Woh, wasnt meaning to insult you, calm down, i was just trying to say that there is still huge amounts of prejudice towards gay people in some places. Im not disputing its a lot better than it was.
Im not an aggressive person lol, if you are actively looking for a fight, look elsewhere, ill just back down XD
Sorry T_T I was having a PMS day...
no worries :), friends lol?
For the trans society to get accepted into mainstream society? First, it needs to be taught that gender is not completely physical. That is, teach that there is such a thing as gender identity early on in school, in which one has the option change to the opposite sex if that is how they really feel inside. And give these children the option of delaying puberty/ ect. This will greatly help the trans culture. Secondly, keep on being present in the media, not as freak shows like on the Jerry Springer, but as real life people. That is how we really are, and it is time to show the story to the world. Thirdly, we need to let the laws of America reflect our 'gender diversity'. By this I mean that the laws of the United States need to represent trans-culture by; in general requiring insurance to cover HRT, SRS, and FFS; prevent discrimination in law, the workplace, or the real world; and allow us to marry our preference (whether it be our same gender or opposite gender.
Quote from: El on May 14, 2010, 03:23:23 AM
no worries :), friends lol?
Of course! <3 ;D <3
Quote from: forallittook on May 14, 2010, 03:46:43 AM
For the trans society to get accepted into mainstream society? First, it needs to be taught that gender is not completely physical. That is, teach that there is such a thing as gender identity early on in school, in which one has the option change to the opposite sex if that is how they really feel inside. And give these children the option of delaying puberty/ ect. This will greatly help the trans culture. Secondly, keep on being present in the media, not as freak shows like on the Jerry Springer, but as real life people. That is how we really are, and it is time to show the story to the world. Thirdly, we need to let the laws of America reflect our 'gender diversity'. By this I mean that the laws of the United States need to represent trans-culture by; in general requiring insurance to cover HRT, SRS, and FFS; prevent discrimination in law, the workplace, or the real world; and allow us to marry our preference (whether it be our same gender or opposite gender.
All very good ideas! Education is the proper way to combat ignorance! :) I hope transsexual groups start making these suggestions! People like Stonewall.
There is a problem with the stealth people, as being the most successful in some ways, they are also the least visible, so our best examples are unseen.
Quote from: tekla on May 14, 2010, 10:23:19 AM
There is a problem with the stealth people, as being the most successful in some ways, they are also the least visible, so our best examples are unseen.
An interesting thing I just remembered, there was a UK big brother season where a MtF transexual was the winner :) Hows that sound for community acceptance? ;D
Portraits in the media hardly qualify as community unless your talking about the entertainment industry.
Quote from: tekla on May 14, 2010, 08:55:18 PM
Portraits in the media hardly qualify as community unless your talking about the entertainment industry.
Huh? At the end of the Big Brother season, the UK public phone in to vote who they want to win. Nadia (the transexual in question). I thought her winning meant that the majority of the UK public who phoned in wanted her to win ;D
Sigh, I guess that doesn't say anything about the people who didn't phone in :(
It's like Dancing with the (sort of) Stars here. I can pretty much predict who is going to go on by matching the sort-of star, with the base of people who are watching the show - ex 'boy-band' guys do well because a lot of the women who watch are 20-30 and were fans of that band (or those kind of bands) when they were a lot younger. Considering that one segment of it runs opposite Monday Night Football, it's hardly a representative audience.
What I think needs to happen, is that the myth of the gender binary is eliminated. What would be healthy, is for society to realize that gender exists on a continuum, much like sexuality. Society now gets the reality of racial blending, and may some day understand that we all aren't Ken and Barbies. Only through education and example will society's views begin to change.
It will mostly take time I agree with that, but with that in mind not all people will accept. There will always be one person who does not agree with things.
Two things that helped mainstream gays: There is a growing understanding that one is born gay, and gays became "one of us" – the person next door, the co-worker, the church board member, the business owner – rather than "the other" – a freak who lurks in the night, someone you would never know personally.
The same thing can happen for trans people. The more people who know us as their neighbor, their co-worker, the helpful person at church, the friend of a friend, the more accepted we will be. The more people who realize this is not a choice or a lifestyle, the more sympathy we will garner for just being ourselves.
Therefore, to gain acceptance we need to be visible and part of the mainstream. If everyone you know knows that you are trans, that helps. If you look and act like a 'normal' man or woman, that helps. I'm not saying that you need to be out if it is not safe for you. And I'm not saying that you have to conform to some artificial standard of maleness or femaleness. But the more of us who are out and fit into society in our real gender, the more mainstreamed transsexuality will be.
- Kate
Try being trans or gay in the Deep South...
You would think doctors would be more open-minded but they've been condescending, bordering on rude and hostile to me. People I've told or tried to talk to about trans issues...well, I won't even post what they've said. I dread having to transition here.
The deep, deep south? No wonder you get a lot of heat down there :P ;).
(Sorry, reminded me of Little Nicky ::) :P)
Driver license ca be changed in many states without surgery.
Start with Wisconsin, You are sposed to present a letter form your therapist. that is all. I didn't even do that. They looked at me and asked if I wanted it changed when I changed my name.
Edit: it turns out that some states have different rules for MTF Than for FTM.
arizona, arkansas, california, connecticut, etc,
just google DMV gender marker change