I've talked to my mom about me being transgender before and she said she was Ok as long as I wasn't lesbian. But she has been looking for bible verses that talk about it. So I was talking to my brother about the difference between sex and gender. HE said so your gender is a boy but your sex is a girl. I didn't know what to say cause it was in front of my mom so I mumbled yes. Then she said that we are talking tonight and she found a lot of verses. I believe in the bible too, strongly, so I don't know what to say to her and how to explain it. We are going to counseling when we get money but I don't know what to do now. AND its been coming up a lot in school too. Any advice? Thanks
Sorry you had to read a lot...
The way I view the Bible is that it is open to interpretation. It's not as ridgid as many people believe and even the devil could use the Bible to prove his point (just as Nazis did).
Dr. Becky has something about Christianity, transsexuality and the Bible: http://www.drbecky.com/lynnmont.html (http://www.drbecky.com/lynnmont.html)
Religious tolerance.org also has some information: http://www.religioustolerance.org/transbibl.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/transbibl.htm)
One organization that might be helpful for you with balancing both your religious/spiritual side and gender while being supportive and accepting is the Unitarian Universalist church.
Thanks. Hopefully it'll help
The bible is about the soul and the spirit. If you feel at soul level you are male then its the will of God for you to go through the sex-change process.
It truly saddens me that people have manipulated the words of Christ in order to protect ignorance and hatred.
OK. I'M not trying to have a religious talk right now (cause I know that would turn out bad) but what about when someone says that God doesn't make mistakes and you were born this way for a reason? HAs anyone ever mentioned this to you guys?
Post Merge: May 11, 2010, 07:46:35 PM
Yeah. IT mentioned deuteronomy in that website.
If somebody were to say God doesn't make mistakes and that I was born this way for a reason I'd ask them if they've ever had any form of surgery (wisdom teeth removed, open heart, etc).
Here's also something to counter the typical interpretation of Deuteronomy 22:5
http://www.whosoever.org/v3i3/deut.html (http://www.whosoever.org/v3i3/deut.html)
K. THAnks guys. Here it goes
Post Merge: May 11, 2010, 08:13:55 PM
SHes gotten me with 1 Corinthians 6:9 :-\
I think God is romantic. "Male" and "Female" are forms of energy. One is creative and one is receptive. I don't think it has anything to do with genitalia. You can want to look like a woman and do female things and still be the "creative" form of energy at soul level. The bible is written to be read in VERY deep waters. Everything in it is a metaphor that should be read through your honest feelings and intuition. We are in the kingdom of God. God is invisible. The spirit is invisible. Ignorance tries to read the bible literally.
I feel bad for God. Ignorant people have manipulated his words in order to have power and then "outcasts" or "different" people who want to live through their honest feelings get turned off by the word of God just because people are preaching his words incorrectly. There are many anti-christs.
God makes no mistakes. The world does.
1 Corinthians 6:9 doesn't really have anything to do with being transgender...
It said homosexuality including transsexuals and sex changes is unrighteous.
Quote from: Charles321 on May 11, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
It said homosexuality including transsexuals and sex changes is unrighteous.
Like I said... I honestly believe "male" and "female" are forms of energy. One if receptive and one is creative. What is homosexuals really relates to two "male" energies being together? That has nothing to do with genitalia.
Quote from: Charles321 on May 11, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
It said homosexuality including transsexuals and sex changes is unrighteous.
Not exactly. Like with most of the Bible, it's open for interpretation.
It explained it underneath the verse. But anyways, I'm losing the argument with my mom. This is hard.
There's not much else I can tell ya.
Also, unless your mother's an orthodox jew, she shouldn't be looking to Deuteronomy or Leviticus for laws, anyway. Unless of course she also doesn't eat pork or shellfish, doesn't mix different linens in her garments, and follows other Jewish law. Arbitrarily picking and choosing laws out of the Torah to view as binding while ignoring others makes no sense.
yeah. well I'm done talking to her about so thanks everyone.
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 11, 2010, 08:53:38 PM
The Bible is, at best, a bunch of stories that give you a rough guide on how to be a good person. It is not to be taken literally and it should never be used as the absolute word of God, because it was written and interpreted by fallible men with their own agendas, then translated after that by fallible men who also had their own agendas.
That's why I like the jewish way of doing it. Start right from the original Hebrew-- none of this translation crap to wade through, and then it's perfectly acceptable to disagree with anyone else's opinion and Torah and Talmud commentaries are packed with the conflicting opinions of the great scholars of history, which is perfectly fine. Two jews, three opinions, as the saying goes. Sure, any individual will insist he's right and everyone else is wrong, but he's just as entitled to his stupidity as I am to mine. ;D
HAha. THat good. But were not Jewish.
I know I'm a little late to the party, but what version of the Bible was your mom using? Like NIV or NKJV for example.
I have always been under the impression that the New Testament was offered as a testament to supersede the old one. So if you're a Christian, go by the New Testament instead of the Old. But I don't know if that's right.
I am an atheist... And in that context, I realize that the Bible can be manipulated any way to fit ones desire. It is just a matter of wording. In reference to the Deuteronomy verse, one could simply say that because you are a man/ woman internally, wearing the clothing of the opposite anatomic sex does not violate this law. From a strong transgender view point, transgender individuals are the gender of the people that they identify with. In that sense, you are a not violating Bible and its word.
Also, one needs to recognize that you are never going to win against your family. Religiosity rarely has to do with scripture, instead it reflects the values of the group. For example, when I was a "Believer" a lady at church complained in a Deacon's meeting that the Pastor wears sandals every once in a while (I know, sounds ridiculous, and this was at a comparatively liberal church). The whole group started getting angry... And then one individual spoke up and said that, "Jesus wore sandals and their are verses commanding to wear sandals, so what is so wrong with this?" Everyone was still angry after that statement. It is not about written text, instead it is what reflects the word of the group as a whole. In that realm, your family may not be accepting.
If anything is explained under a verse in a bible, it has been interpreted by someone else and is not the view of the verse but the view of the interpreter.
Ex bible scholar who did as Devin said and went back to the hebrew and greek for original text.
Quote from: Charles321 on May 11, 2010, 08:08:35 PM
SHes gotten me with 1 Corinthians 6:9 :-\
I do not understand. From what little I might surmise from context, she has referred to the pronouncement that neither the malakoi(amounts to 'soft one,' or, in gay parlance, 'bottom'), nor the arsenokoitai(amounts to 'bedder of men,' or in gay parlance, 'top') could inherit the Kingdom. These words are sometimes translated as 'effeminate' and 'homosexual,' respectively, though these are very poor translations.
Would you explain her argument further?
- N
ACtually the bible straight up talked about transsexuals and sex change and how God made only man and women physically not just spiritually. In the new testament also. ANd It's a NKJV.
Quote from: Charles321 on May 12, 2010, 06:00:07 AM
ACtually the bible straight up talked about transsexuals and sex change and how God made only man and women physically not just spiritually. In the new testament also. ANd It's a NKJV.
Not in the one i have.
Quote from: Charles321 on May 12, 2010, 06:00:07 AM
ACtually the bible straight up talked about transsexuals and sex change and how God made only man and women physically not just spiritually. In the new testament also. ANd It's a NKJV.
You might want to cite verses for that - it's a pretty extreme claim.
Quote from: LordKAT on May 12, 2010, 06:40:49 AM
Not in the one i have.
or the one i have and believe me when i first came out as a lesbian 20 something years ago i scoured the bible for any references
OK. WEll then I might talk to her about it again. I think the bible is a new king james version. That's what my church uses. And most other people.
Quote from: Charles321 on May 11, 2010, 07:43:40 PMwhat about when someone says that God doesn't make mistakes and you were born this way for a reason?
I'm not a christian by any stretch of the word, but you know, one can twist that to make one's own point.
If god doesn't make mistakes, then he deliberately made you transgender. This might be because he wishes for you to do whatever it takes to be the real you, like a test of your strength.
It's not up to anyone to say why god made you this way or what he wants you to do about it, but a lot of people who believe in god believe that he speaks to you through your heart's deepest desires, and so, if you really, deep down, want to correct your body to fit the soul that god gave you, then maybe that's because god is telling you that that is what you have to do...
Or something to that effect.
Late to the party as well, but I don't see anywhere in my version either (Good News bible). It talks about "homosexual perverts" - which I read as just that; perverts who are wicked in other ways, guys who take advantage of other men for their own pleasure, or are willing to be used in that way where there's no love involved. (Not judging anyone here, honest - I don't want a flame war.) I'd be very interested to see what other verses have been brought into this discussion.
I can't stand it when people use God or His word like this. God doesn't make mistakes, damn right - I like Miniar's suggestion, and have a couple of my own:
- He wants to challenge society's narrow view of what should and shouldn't be
- He wants to use people like us, and the experiences we go through, in order to reach out to others in this situation. Bit like I'm doing now, in fact.
Want a bible verse to keep you going? Check my sig ;) There are plenty of others saying how we have no right to judge each other; another good one is where Jesus tells those about to stone an adulteress, "If anyone here is without sin, let him throw the first stone." And the stoning of adulterers was actually a law written in Leviticus - the same book that says man shall not lie with man :P
Good luck :)
I'll put the verses on here tonight. WOrd by word from the bible.
@Charles: You don't have to post them word for word, just the reference. Biblegateway.com has any version of the Bible you could possibly want, so we'll be able to read them in the NKJV since that's what you're using.
I do have to wonder if this should be moved to the Spirituality/Christianity subforum as this has kind of gotten away from being a ftm issue.
YEah I know its gotten more off ftm topic. But since it started here I was gonna put them here. IF anyone wants, I can put the verses on a new topic on the Christianity/spirituality section or I can forget about it.
Not sure if this would help... Matthew 19:12
"For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."
THat might help. I'LL show my mom it.
Whoa, I didn't notice that this wasn't in the spirituality forum. Charles, this really is a religious issue. I'm going to move it.
OK. GO ahead
When all else fails, basically tell her it's your life, you need to do what is best for you, and your choices are between YOU and GOD, period. And you'll have to answer to him on judgment day.
Trying to argue the Bible will be futile.
The Bible doesn't specifically say anything about transgendered individuals. And one line about homosexuals.
You could ask her if she thinks disobedient children should be stoned to death. And if not, why not, because the Bible says to.
Just saying.
Jay
Charles I've very sorry that you're mom is reacting like this.. every time I hear someone on here say how negatively their parents are to their transness it makes me that much more thankful for my own mom. I know I'm late to this, and others have said it.. but here are some bible verses that I used on a friend who wanted to pick and choose verses on me:
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
"Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)
The Bible itself states that you are not to nit pick what to believe in. It also says that "there is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you- who are who are you to judge your neighbor?" (James 4:12) Anyone who trys to pass judgment on another with Christianity is themselves being un-Christian. For "If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen ." -(1 John 4:20) I would also assume that all of this is of coarse troubling to you. Not only do you have to come to terms with your gender identity, but you have to weigh that against your beliefs. If your mother wants to quote Corinthians to you she should go to 2 Corinthians 1:3-4 first. It states that God comforts us in our troubles so that we can comfort those in trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. To me what she's doing is again un- Christian, because it's an attack rather than a comfort in a time when you're going through a personal trouble/struggle. You can quote verses all day. But at the end of the day the inspiration of the Bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it.
As Jay says, arguing the Bible is futile.
It's a book about interpertation.
Some of us see it as an historical record. As Christians, we take the words of Jesus to be paramount. Everything else is therefore compared to those. That tends to cancel out most of it. That doesn't deminish the significance of the Bible. It demonstrtates why Jesus was needed. between delivering the 10 Commandments and Jesus, so much of was added, generally for the convienence of those in authority.
Others choose to see it as a rigid statement. Contradictions are dismissed and suitable interpertations applied. So many different interpertations.
But there is little or no point in arguing with those that take the latter view. In any case, Jesus indicated that we shouldn't.
THanks Evan. That helps
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 11, 2010, 07:42:29 PM
Let's hope you mom doesn't find Deuteronomy 22:5...
A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.
Another good reason to ignore the Bible...
Not if you understand the science of textual criticism (which goes far beyond religious writings)
The above quoted verse is part of the Levitical law.
Which not even Orthodox Jews practice in it's entirety (when is the last time you heard of them stoning anyone, which is the prescribed punishment for many things including adultery)and no one else even claims to.
No thinking Christian (and conceded many of them are NOT "thinking" when it comes to the Bible) would claim that the Levitical law is applicable to the modern Christian.
There may well be reasons to ignore the Bible from your point of view, but the fact that it happens to record an ancient legal code that is in no way held to apply in our day isn't one of them.
Post Merge: May 15, 2010, 10:07:12 PM
Quote from: Charles321 on May 11, 2010, 07:43:40 PM
OK. I'M not trying to have a religious talk right now (cause I know that would turn out bad) but what about when someone says that God doesn't make mistakes and you were born this way for a reason? HAs anyone ever mentioned this to you guys?
I got that from a few folks, but I countered with an argument none of them have had an answer - from the Bible or otherwise - for.
which is as follows:
a great many babies are born in some way which we, as compassionate adults, try to correct or at least wish we could. cleft palette? Spina Bifida? Autistic? whatever....if we CAN correct a birth defect, we DO.
No Christian (except the fringe folks who think no human medicine should be used and prayer only is our resort) would argue that a child born with a correctable birth defect should NOT be corrected because "God made them that way and we shouldn't interfere"
Now, the person will come back and say "what's wrong with you isn't a birth defect"
But that doesn't disprove that these are children that "God made that way" (by THEIR logic) that we are all too happy to alter.
so right there the "if you were born this way (whatever way it happens to be) it's proof god wanted you this way and you should leave it alone" argument falls apart.
Furthermore, there are thousands of examples of things in the world being something other than what anyone can reasonably argue is the way God would want them (assuming here the Christian God described in the Bible)
Is it "God's will" that earthquakes or tornadoes or floods kill or cripple many? Are cancers and heart attacks and car wrecks "God's Will"?
or are they symptoms of a fallen world (again, assuming Christian theology here) as the Bible tells us?
and if indeed we live in a fallen world where bad things happen and people are sick or crippled or injured or dieing because things happen that are not God's will - then how can we argue that "since you were born female it MUST be God's will that you be a female" anymore than we can argue "since you have cancer it MUST be god's will that you die of cancer"?
Post Merge: May 15, 2010, 11:08:59 PM
Quote from: Charles321 on May 11, 2010, 08:08:35 PM
K. THAnks guys. Here it goes
Post Merge: May 11, 2010, 08:13:55 PM
SHes gotten me with 1 Corinthians 6:9 :-\
that verse has nothing to do with you.
I've already written what it said. It mentioned transsesvites and sex changes not just homosexuality.
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 16, 2010, 09:45:47 PM
CORINTHIANS 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
I see no mention of transsexuals or SRS.
If 'effeminate' is supposed to refer to trans women, then as a trans guy, you're safe.
I actually think it's generally agreed by people who study the original text that that pair (translated effeminate men and homosexual offenders) refers to gay bottoms and tops, respectively.
Quote from: Kvall on May 17, 2010, 01:09:26 AM
In the context of male temple prostitution and idolatrous worship.
Exactly.
In other words, they have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with trans men, unless you also happen to be a gay temple prostitute or a patron of same.
Except that letter was written to a specific community.
At a time when there were far fewer people around and practically no mass communications.
We can only speculate, of course, but it seems more likely that what was being emphasised was the specific traditions of that community, which should be respected.
Jesus taught us to respect the laws of man when they don't interfere with the law of God.
I'm pretty certain, in that same collection, there is a directive that men should pray with their heads uncovered while women must cover theirs, for example.
Rendering unto....
As Christians, our priority is the word of Jesus.
DO you think 1 Corinthians 15:44 would help? FRom what I've heard other people say about natural and spiritual body.
"it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:44
this just says that you are born in your physical body, but raised unto heaven in your spiritual body/soul... and says that if there is a physical body then it also has a soul, which many other passages throughout the bible also state. If you want to go this route, showing your mom that there is a difference between your physical and spiritual bodies, I would think that Ecclesiastes 11:5 would be a better choice:
"As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of the woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything."
It clearly distinguishes between the body and the spirit, says that humans don't know when (AND MOST IMPORTANTLY HOW) the spirit enters the physical form, and states that humans do not know how God works. To me this would be the best choice if you chose to continue down this path. Other than that maybe you should think about finding a gay friendly church in your area and talking to the pastor there, maybe even with your mom? because no matter what passage you use you're still going to lose charles. you'll find one in support, she will find one to refute yours.. it's a never ending cycle because there is no clear cut yes or no in the old or new testament about transsexuals. in my opinion your best hope is to prove that as a fact rather than to use the bible to prove that you're right. once you do that then maybe you can move on and deal with any personal issues with you being transgendered that your mom has. since the bible doesn't state that God has a problem with it.
temple prostitution and idolatrous worship
That pretty much sums up Modern American and Western culture and civilization.
I like the verse "There is no male or female".
Well if they would only follow their hymns
In Christ there is no East or West,
In Him no South or North;
But one great fellowship of love
Throughout the whole wide earth.
In Him shall true hearts everywhere
Their high communion find;
His service is the golden cord,
Close binding humankind.
Join hands, then, members of the faith,
Whatever your race may be!
Who serves my Father as His child
Is surely kin to me.
In Christ now meet both East and West,
In Him meet North and South;
All Christly souls are one in Him
Throughout the whole wide earth.
Alternatively, you could ask her how big a family gathering should be held when she is burned to death for wearing mixed threads in her clothing.
You can't cherry pick if you are going to be a literalist, which seems to be a movement which only started in the US in the 19th Century.