Last night I wondered a bit about the visibility of the androgynes and that lead to a realm of ponder. There's ->-bleeped-<- as a minortiy in the world with transsexuality as its 'poster child', and then there's androgyne as a minority in the transgender community. So I figured that the above statement makes androgyne an invisible mini-minority in the world.
It made me think how important is it really for androgyny to become more visible/more understood/recognised in the world. If I look at history it seems to me that the effectiveness of advocation relies on by what extend the subject is feared/met with agression - or in general unlocks an emotional reaction. Thus, if you take the part of androgyne being an invisible mini-minority then a call for recognition will likely fall to deaf ears.
And I realised a yay-factor to this... If an androgyne is invisible they are less likely to be victimised in terms of discrimination. They may be discriminated but then mostly as something else (mainly as homosexual when perceived as such or simple as a weirdo or freak when perceived highly eccentric). In comparison; stating you're androgyne unlikely will get you punched in the face, stating you're transsexual might get you punched in the face and much more. Of course an androgyne could also be perceived as a transsexual (gender expression) and then might face the same discrimination/fears/agression etc.
So all-in-all I wonder, is this invisibility really a bad thing? Surely, there's the argument that there is a desire to be seen/recognised as who you truly are, but that's probably not accompanied by a desire to become target practice at the same time.
It's just something I wondered about and I'm interested in the thoughts of other folk on this, especially those who think it is important that androgyny be recognised in the big bad world. ;)
Ah, and add to that the recognition in official channels (in terms of possibly treatment) whether it should be accompanied by overal recognition.
is invisibility a bad thing?..
well if you want to blend in, it isn't.
but if you want to be seen as you and not as something you are not, then it matters.
I think that telling someone that you are an androgyne will just get you a strange look. Most people don't have any idea what you are talking about, and they have never heard the term.
Once you explain it, THEN they will think that you are a freak or wierdo, out on the fringe. Everyone is either a boy or a girl, right? How can you be both, or neither, or switch back and forth between the two?
Somehow i doubt that violence will be involved, because androgynes typically don't threaten anyone's sexual identity. We are a mostly peaceful group, arguing over fruitcake and winnie the pooh's gender :D
But yeah, as a group we are pretty much well hidden and unknown, even among the transgender community. I don't know if that's a good thing, or a bad thing.
I concur with Riven
People have always thought I am a weirdo.
I don't know if this is a factor, but, being who we are, many of us probably choose open minded or intelligent friends to begin with. I've known some real troglodytes but didn't hang out with them or feel it necessary to discuss anything other than whatever excuse I needed to use so I could get away from the person without hurting their feelings.
Yes, I care about how Trogs feel. :laugh:
I dont know about that. Both Sevan and I are in the androgenous phaze of HRT. People stare and look uncomfortable. Sometimes they refuse to even look at us. I have seen disaproving glances and one woman who literaly came to a stop in shocked pause when she first saw me then she carried on like she didnt just make an ass of herself.
I do not see how you can think androgynes are invisible. Personaly I will be glad when I no longer look like an androgyne.
Maybe it is just because I live out in the country where my nearest neigbor is a horse.
I don't know... the less likely to be victimised thing is pretty good, obviously. But even though greater visibility might mean greater danger, I reckon that society's becoming a lot better able to cope with us wierdos anyway. And I think it would probably be seen as a less 'extreme' state than full transsexualism, so I'm not sure it would provoke quite the same degree of reaction... maybe I'm just being optimistic?
But I feel awkward enough when I have to explain "I feel that I am androgyne" without then having to go into the several-minute-long defining the term schtick. It would be good if everyone just knew what I was on about in the first place! Of course, you'll still get some people who dive straight in asking personal questions, but... it comes with the territory. :o
Also, I think that if a lot more people knew there were alternatives to the whole male/female divide we'd have quite a few more people in this section of the forums. I mean, I'm pretty internet-literate (read: spend a ridiculous amount of time on the internet) and it still took me probably about 3 years of researching to even discover such a thing existed? Because of course, you research stuff about transgendered feelings, you get stuff about full transition, and that wasn't me. So I think for that reason alone greater visibility is a good thing. Problem is, unless they get an androgynous character on the mainstream media (eg. as a character in a soap or popular movie) I don't know HOW exactly this invisibility cloak will be lifted. I suppose one day I'll find out!
Post Merge: May 15, 2010, 10:09:05 PM
Quote from: cynthialee on May 15, 2010, 10:02:27 PM
I do not see how you can think androgynes are invisible. Personaly I will be glad when I no longer look like an androgyne.
I think no_id meant invisible as a seperate identity, not invisible in public. Or literally invisible. Mind you, in these parts of the forums, you can never be sure...
I kinda took it that way too, but I was bringing up the reaction of others because I apear androgynous at this time. I can't even imagine how they will react when the fact that Sevan is an androgyne is made known.
People do not like that which they consider as 'other'. I just don't think getting the idea that we are unnoticed or socialy invisible is a safe way to operate. People notice the weird ones. I have been the wierd person all my life, I have seen it enough.
my instinct is that being androgyne isn't percieved by most people as even being a part of ->-bleeped-<- or "deviant sexuality" at all.
it's simply seen as "non-conformist" at most, or overlooked (i.e. misreading the person as homosexual) altogether.
I would guess that 70-80% of people who don't know something of the subject from personal experience would be no more or less offended/shocked/troubled/whatever by an androgyne than by a heavily tattoed person or someone with tons of piercings or even your average seriously presenting emo or goth kid.
I'm not sure what the implications of that are in terms of what the androgyne community would like to achieve - frankly I don't think any of us will live to see a world in which "non-conformity" becomes an irrelevancy in terms of how everyone else reacts to you, human nature being what it is.
but I don't really think that, whatever most uninformed folks think of the androgyne in their midst, that they think this person is transgender.
Quote from: cynthialee on May 15, 2010, 10:02:27 PM
Personaly I will be glad when I no longer look like an androgyne.
?
Some of us are stuck at the "looking like an androgne" phase - because we are androgynes.
Quote from: cynthialee on May 15, 2010, 10:02:27 PM
I do not see how you can think androgynes are invisible. Personaly I will be glad when I no longer look like an androgyne.
Quote from: Fenrir on May 15, 2010, 10:06:34 PM
I think no_id meant invisible as a seperate identity, not invisible in public. Or literally invisible. Mind you, in these parts of the forums, you can never be sure...
Cynth, like Fen explains; I didn't mean invisible in the sense of expression/appearance. I meant as in: AG being an invisible/not recognised identity; the public in majority not aware of its existence. Hope that explains it a bit. :)
Like some folk point out; 'I'm already seen as a weirdo' or 'They'd think I'm just a weirdo'. Androgyne is currently a none-charged word to the public which allows it to be replaced by such terms 'weirdo' 'freak' 'gay' as perception seems fit and the treatment that go along with those. I'm just wondering what kind of charge 'androgyne' would get if it were more known to the public and would it be a positive or a negative one...?
Quote from: Laura Hope on May 15, 2010, 10:24:26 PM
my instinct is that being androgyne isn't percieved by most people as even being a part of ->-bleeped-<- or "deviant sexuality" at all.
it's simply seen as "non-conformist" at most, or overlooked (i.e. misreading the person as homosexual) altogether.
I agree, the androgyne identity isn't perceived as part of ->-bleeped-<- due to often seen as simply 'androgynous' (gender expression) while an androgynous gender expression isn't even what all androgynes carry. This, also adds to my statement that the androgyne identity is mostly invisible.
QuoteI would guess that 70-80% of people who don't know something of the subject from personal experience would be no more or less offended/shocked/troubled/whatever by an androgyne than by a heavily tattoed person or someone with tons of piercings or even your average seriously presenting emo or goth kid.
Based on the above I'd think you're talking about people's reaction towards an androgynous presenting individual... I'm not sure if that reaction is on par with the possible reaction to an androgyne identity if this became more well known/recognised to a wider public.
I mean, it's kind of a hard subject since we're still mostly fiddling with the definition of 'androgyne' ourselves, in fact, we're still trying to be completely recognised in the transgender community as an identity rather than the incorrect assumption that it is an expression (due to androgynous). Although I have to say on that last point that things have definitely improved over the last few years. Androgyny isn't completely understood by everyone in the TG community but it is more likely accepted as an identity. That took a few years... Likely it will take a whole lot more to present a non-binary model to the general public. I'm not sure it would ever been seen as a an identity rather than gender expression...
I think the key point is 'non-binary'. Until people can accept that ther is a spectrum and not two sides, the label will be difficult to defend.
Quote from: LordKAT on May 16, 2010, 03:19:53 AM
I think the key point is 'non-binary'. Until people can accept that ther is a spectrum and not two sides, the label will be difficult to defend.
I definitely agree, and I think what I wonder about in this thread is whether it's worth to 'force' that non-binary understanding upon the general public and defend it - if it will not have a much more adverse effect.
I also wonder if it would be best to feed it in small doses or just clobber them with it. One may be gradual but causes people after a while to say enough already. The other cause a big hullabaloo and will either get it out and open or totally dumped into the realm of idiocy.
I'd say yes, I didn't learn about the gender spectrum until after I came out as transgendered. Realising that gender is a simple binary has helped me understand my own feelings a lot more and my own place in the world.
I don't know what good it would do forcing a non-binary understanding on the public, I guess a lot of people would shy away due to lack of understanding or possibly just denounce the whole thing entirely...probably using god as an excuse. I think most people would have trouble getting their heads round it, simply because they fit neatly into a binary, and that would go for trans or cis gendered people alike. You're more likely to question the gender binary if you're already questioning your own place in that system...much like I was.
Well that's a bit like the old myth that all full on transsexuals had big hands and feet, adams apples, low voices and wore makeup and skirts all the time.
This clearly isn't true but while people were out looking for all those "obvious signs" which the media had so kindly drummed into the UK population to expect I found that I could achieve a pretty well 100% pass rate by almost deliberately playing against the stereotype.
I almost never wear makeup even on evenings out, I wear dresses and skirts only rarely, I have tiny hands and small feet, no adams apple and my voice is naturally fairly high. I do have some, to me, obvious signs as to my biological provenance, like the fact that I am 5 foot 8 and my hips are not really as wide as they probably should be for my height, but no one seems to noice them.
So personally I guess that being invisible and letting people assume what they want to assume regardless of whether they are right or wrong is a pretty smart strategy if you want an easy life.
Quote from: LordKAT on May 16, 2010, 03:19:53 AM
I think the key point is 'non-binary'. Until people can accept that ther is a spectrum and not two sides, the label will be difficult to defend.
I would argue that we are so "wired" as a species towards the gender binary, and that it is so ingrained into our cultures, that there will NEVER be a human society which starts with a non-binary view of gender.
There may well come a day - in the distant future - when society is so open minded that they shrug and say "dif'frent strokes" about those who can't or won't conform to the binary...but the binary will always be the default assumption, IMO.
While it can be painful at times to deal with invisibility, it can also be dangerous for androgynes to not clearly present as either binary gender. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
As far as telling other people, I generally use transgender, since they already know that term, and then elaborate about my individual situation from there. Most people are pretty understanding.
Z
I have to say, that as I have been slowly and gradually rachetting up the femme parts of my expression I have found more and more people telling me that I am an androgyne, without me having to do much work at all. This shows me that we are not invisible as individuals - but maybe we are as a group because we are not much of a group - we have no club or uniform or newspaper - even toy train modellers have that...I think this invisibility is not such a terrible thing, as long as we realise we are voiceless because of it - would we all want to say something similar if we had a voice anyway?
A stone's throw from 50, I no longer have the spit and fire of years gone by. I am content to be invisible, to finally be at peace with myself and to leave the fight to the young.
This was (and probably will continue to be...) the biggest issue in coming out. While friends and aquaintences really had no real care or concern...my family has been a big issue. Not only did I tell them I'm different (and doing something about it...) but I'm different in a way they've never even HEARD of!
I seriously gave extensive thought to just telling my parents I'm FtM because I really thought it would be easier and in the long run I'd be taken mroe seriously....but that's not who I am..so having them accept me as their son with male pronouns would suck for me just as much. (if not more..)
While I don't see any real way to be less invisible (especially considering all those who don't WANT to be visible) when we can't fit nicely into the binary (as some have already said..) It's a rather open wound for me at the momenty....as someone else said (Z?) Damned if we do...damned if we don't. *sigh*
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 16, 2010, 05:58:41 PM
I think this invisibility is not such a terrible thing, as long as we realise we are voiceless because of it - would we all want to say something similar if we had a voice anyway?
I think that is an interesting question and my first reply/answer is 'No, unlikely'... At the same time I'm reminded of Nero's topic now 'Why do Androgynes have such a mild temperament' - I suppose you can only fight/rebel when you know what you are fighting for; a thing that seems to be lost in the androgyne dessert where each goes their own way to find some source of water...
If there were any collective answer it would probably be 'We are here', but I'm unsure if that's something worth striding for considering the absolute vagueness of that statement. ???
Interesting conversation. Perhaps we are a minority but we are also part of the whole, one of the threads that make the cloth.
I had an interesting encounter this winter. My wife, Geige plays a lot of golf with a group of women. This year a new girl was introduced to the group. Geige shrared her experiences and conversations with me about the woman whose name is Robin. Jill thought she was a "butch lesbian. We finally met a few weeks ago and it was so strange. Geige had told her about me and she told me about Robin. When we met she looked at me with a bit of surprise and so did I. She is either a FtoM or an androgyne or both. We got along just OK. She may have a crush on Jill.
They played more golf and Geige shared that Robin was totally expecting a manly man not a man with an obvious feminine presence. Geige responded that I had a similiar comment about her. I finally decided by sharing our conversations that Robin is an androgyne. I would love to ask her but I know I never will. So for me she is part of the obscure "mini-minority".
I'm constantly clocked as gay or Trans It is strange feeling to have someone unexpectedly question if you are a boy or girl but I like it a lot more then if I'm asked if I'm gay or bi depending on the situation. asked by taxi driver vs asked by a group of giggling teens I will tell them something to say that what I wear is me not on expression of my sexuality but an expression of my gender also I've given up on using androgyne as a label for me even in "queer" places I say that the most common term for people like me is genderqueer. I prefer "intergender Androgyne" for myself but any time I've used it I get a WTF or a pls explain. I'd love to be able to say this is what I am so as to give people an Idea of my struggles If I say "Transgender" they believe Girl in boys body and can accept that but I believe my self to be an Alien and I want to look like one then it would be more accepted then to hear a word they have never heard of. To be accepted as who I am without supplying a whole stack of paperwork to say that I'm not the only person like this would be great.If there was some publication that I could give to shrinks & family & friends so they would believe that being in the middle is acceptable It would have made life a lot easier and probably would have started positive steps toward being me much sooner rather then thinking I was just too different
Yeah, people don't know much about ->-bleeped-<- anyway and just assume it is a 'gay' thing, I've found. Every person but one I've told about my gender identity (not very many, but still) has responded with "so... you're a lesbian?" >.< Even the people who immediately clock that something's up with how I act will always go for the "are you a lesbian?" route without gender even crossing their minds! Heck, I reckon that even my mum reckons I'm a lesbian. She keeps saying stuff about supporting lesbianism and all that. I find it quite funny, but I am going to have to explain soon. :P (Rant over, you can look now)
And I also tend to say 'genderqueer' if I'm explaining it to people. I, personally, prefer the term androgyne but if you typed that into a search engine or into YouTube it would be more likely to bring up people who look androgynous, rather than referring to the gender identity. The term 'genderqueer' is just a lot more commonly used online in general, so should they wish to do some research themselves there are a lot more resources there.
And I reckon us androgynes would say more-or-less the same thing in one respect: gender is a spectrum! The world would be so cool if more people understood that...