I would be delighted if you would tell me any information about rib-cage (thorax) surgery. I am 88cm in circumference of thorax. I dream of being 75cm in circumference. I would be very happy if You gave me any information. I am sending you my deepest gratitude and love,
XXX
Dont mess with the ribs. Theyre there for a reason and you dont want to compress your internal organs to breaking point and develop god knows what else. As someone with a mild case of scoliosis ( that bent back thing) i know the appearence is a killer but you just have to accept it and get on with things.
Maybe theres another angle to take this at? like ƃuıxǝʌ said, try to target fat / muscle to lose some circumference.
Quote from: Metamorph on May 19, 2010, 04:52:21 PM
Dont mess with the ribs. Theyre there for a reason and you dont want to compress your internal organs to breaking point and develop god knows what else. As someone with a mild case of scoliosis ( that bent back thing) i know the appearence is a killer but you just have to accept it and get on with things.
Maybe theres another angle to take this at? like ƃuıxǝʌ said, try to target fat / muscle to lose some circumference.
Have to agree, don't mess with ribs!!!
By the way, I mean to offence when saying this.
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 19, 2010, 04:13:38 PM
Removing the 11th and 12th ribs can give a narrower waist, but the width of the chest is fixed.
Corsetry can also compress the lower ribs over time, but again, this only alters the appearance of the waist.
Is this something that can be done to MtFs to feminise them more?
I don't have much fat and muscles, the thing are BONES. My problems are bones, not fat, not muscles. If I were fat, or very masculine I wouldn't ask for a surgery. Removing 11th and 12th rib doesn't give absolutely anything apart of waistline. I'm talking about size and width of the thorax. I can't absolutely accept it. It's my biggest complex. I am taking hormones for about a year, I look like a woman, but I dress like a man, because of the thorax. If I dress feminine, I look absolutely tremendously unacceptable.
I heard about controlled breaking the ribs, and set the bone once again. I am not asking about reducing the circumference of rib-cage, I am asking about BREAKING bones.
A 34" (88cm) chest is certainly within the normal range for a gg. My so is a gg and her band is 36, and she does not look masculine at all. It sounds to me like you are chasing a feminine ideal that is unrealistic for most adult women, trans or otherwise.
I don't want to be an ideal person. I don't want the falsies, big mouth, big ass, etc. I just want to look normally. Does anybody know anything about such surgery?
I'm going to agree with Vexing on this one... It's unlikely you'd find a surgeon that would do this ethically.
I think a good custom corset would be a much easier way to fix big ribs. I plan on getting a good one eventually too.
Quote from: Veera on May 20, 2010, 08:18:56 AM
I don't want to be an ideal person. I don't want the falsies, big mouth, big ass, etc. I just want to look normally. Does anybody know anything about such surgery?
You have been told you are within the range of normal.
You have also been told that such surgery would be dangerous to the point where no licensed doctor could do it and keep his license.
Quote from: Veera on May 20, 2010, 08:18:56 AM
I don't want to be an ideal person. I don't want the falsies, big mouth, big ass, etc. I just want to look normally. Does anybody know anything about such surgery?
I understand where your coming from I have a 33" chest, but you also have to think about he size of your shoulders,If you have broad shoulders a small ribcage may make it more obvious.If you don't like the idea of tightlacing then maybe you should except your rib cage a lot of gg women have wide ribcages.
There are a lot of ways the body can be feminized, but some ways (like breaking bones and starving yourself to the point of consuming your own muscle to reduce your size) are not just dangerous, but can cause long-term harm.
Removing ribs by surgery is one way to make your waist higher and more narrow, but if the rest of your body structure doesn't match that effect, then you end up looking more like a freak of nature than more feminine. I've found that just having a flat tummy works wonders, esp. in jeans.
Find and consult with a body sculpting (plastic) surgeon, and get a professional opinion of what your best options are to get from where you are to where you want to be--safely.
I really appreciate your posts. But my goal isn't to pass as a woman. Everything looks "normal". The rib-cage doesn't fit my figure. I dream of having 75... I can even get rid of my lung. I'm desperated. The corset could be dangerous for me, because I am sure I will get very frustrated when I won't be able to wear it, because of the small size. Consequently I'll be tightening it, tightening til I faint. Psychologist won't give any effect. I wonder if I want to be woman with 88, and the thing is... No, I can't. I'd rather be dead, I think.
I decided to wait for bigger breast (they grow like 3-4 years, so will se what will happen), and leave longer hair. Maybe it will fix the problem, but I'm not convinced.
then therapy for body image would be, in my humble opinion, the best option to help with self acceptance (as in accept what can't change, work on what can).
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 19, 2010, 05:42:32 PM
Potentially, it will give the appearance a slightly narrower waist - provided that the person doesn't have any (or has very little) abdominal fat. For people with a belly, it would be pointless.
Hmm coming to think of it, such surgery would leave your skin looking horribly scarred and ugly anyway :\
Therapy body image? Haha. It's not like that I'm crying whole day "oh my ribs oh my ribs". I am frustrated and very hateful towards myself when I see my whole body in the mirror. It's just a horrible experience for me.
I will tell You why I don't need therapy. I have very big big hands, and I hate them, they are even bigger than some other males. I accept them because I know nothing can be done. However, I heard about controlled breaking the ribs in order to circumference were smaller. So I am living a hope.
Quote from: Veera on May 20, 2010, 04:02:09 PM
So I am living a hope.
and an unrealistic one at that
looking at images, ideals of beauty, that are unobtainable, is unhealthy at best, destructive at worst.
Quote from: Veera on May 20, 2010, 12:38:15 PM
I wonder if I want to be woman with 88, and the thing is... No, I can't. I'd rather be dead, I think.
I have seen many women who I think have a larger thorax than 88cm. Many Nordic, Maori and Pacific Island women are well-built. I suspect you're not happy with just 'being a woman' but rather you want to be a 'hot woman'... I have the same issues too, and I totally understand. However, what about all of those larger women? That doesn't make them any less female... most of us who have transitioned in our twenties or later probably have to accept that we're never going to be waif-like.
If you can't get over this, there are a number of things I think you can do.
1. It's unlikely that you'll be able to reduce your ribcage, so I think finding other ways to compensate would help. In particular, I believe getting fat transfers or PMMA injections (I know, some will say there are dangers to this, and I don't want to get into a whole discussion about PMMA with others about the risks, but I am tossing it out as an option, that's all. I am considering this, and have done a lot of research. Don't take this as an endorsement of pmma - do your own research) to your hips and buttocks would improve your hip to shoulder / hip to thorax ratio to more feminine proportions. Also, get breast implants to increase breast size.
2. If you really are desperate to have your ribs broken - and even I would not consider this - you might enquire with some doctors in China. I believe they do all kinds of crazy surgical procedures in Mainland China, although I don't have any details.
3. Wear dresses which are tighter at the top, with a cincher at the underbust , and which have a flare at the bottom.
The thing is with corset training is you don't tighten it it until you faint or pass out. If you get a good one that's the right size it should be fairly comfortable and only very slightly restricting. Over time your bones regrow and if you have been corset training they will regrow so they fit the corset. Then you tighten it a little (not so it's uncomfortable) and then repeat. It would be much cheaper than going through surgery and much easier to find a corset heh. Take some good body measurements or have a clothing designer do it so you can get just the right one. I think this is a realistic way to shape your body, and is way less scary than surgery :).
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on May 20, 2010, 08:10:12 PM
Getting fixated on numbers is horribly unhealthy.
I totally agree! That makes me a terribly unhealthy person. I measure my entire body weekly...
Quote from: Veera on May 20, 2010, 04:02:09 PM
Therapy body image? Haha. It's not like that I'm crying whole day "oh my ribs oh my ribs". I am frustrated and very hateful towards myself when I see my whole body in the mirror. It's just a horrible experience for me.
I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find a surgeon that will remove your ribs and promise a more curvy you. I've done some minimal research and have found some surgeons will do this in conjunction with an abdominoplasty. Let us know if you have the surgery, I think it's fascinating and would be curious to find out if the results are worth it. Although I probably wouldn't have it done myself.
Unrealistic one? I don't think so. I have seen on YouTube Nina Arsenault videos and she had such surgery. So I think unrealistic is a bad word. I am telling you hundred times, I don't want to be ideal, I have cellulit, I have spreads and many, many more! And I'm totally OKAY with it! My only complex is the rib-cage.
How can You call surgery, which will make me happy and more feminine STUPID? Well It's my choice, and if I am not happy with it, still feel like a man, and masculine, what's the problem? It's my choice. And I don't think it's stupid, I'm frustrated.
QuoteRemoving bone sections from your metacarpals and proximal phalanges will give you smaller hands.
Really? Who does do it?
Andream, I know that there are women with bigger thorax, but they have proportionally built body-parts. And there's one other thing... I don't want to be like them. I don't want to pass as a woman. I want to be happy with myself. I don't want to be fat-mumma with big tits, ass and thorax. I thought about the dresses which will optically change the proportions but... It's still not that. I want to feel proud and well when I'm looking at myself in the mirror naked.
Lightvi, it can sound strange but in my country don't exist ladies who do corsets :D I really tried to find in internet but no results.
Buixe(?), I am not crazy about numbers, I am crazy about the size, I told You numbers for you to try to imagine it.
BlackMamba, I'm not looking for surgeon who will REMOVE my ribs, just will remove proportionally some part of all ribs.
Hmm, well I know amazon.com has some and they ship internationally so you might check there. There's a great place in Portland, OR that does them but they are kind of expensive. Though if I'm going to be wearing it 24/7 I want it to be nice lol.
Quote from: Veera on May 21, 2010, 04:23:05 AM
I have seen on YouTube Nina Arsenault videos and she had such surgery.
I like Nina Arsenault too, but she didn't have the upper rib surgery you're talking of. She only had her lower ribs broken and bent in, which really only affects the mid-section. It was possible for her to do this because the lower ribs are 'floating' ribs. From what I understand of your post, you want to do your upper ribs. I want to do this too - I'm not happy with the upper section of my torso. The ribs of the upper thorax are connected driectly to your sternum, and form a critical part of your anatomy, and to break them and then fuse them together again in smaller dimensions would probably be so invasive that it would be VERY challenging for any surgeon to get it right, if it is even possible. There are so many variables involved - the organs, the cartilage, the flesh, the awkwardness of the dimensions. If you look at the anatomy of a skeleton, you won't be able to just break these upper ribs and reset them in a smaller circumference anyway. You'd need to remove slices of the ribs, and then have some form of apparatus - most likely a great metal thing which screws into the ribs themselves - to hold them fast while the bones fuse over the course of a number of months. There's no guarantee that the bones will fuse properly, and there's no guarantee that the apparatus will stay in place while the bones are healing.
As I said, if you want to do this then go to China, find the most egotistical doctor you can find, and present him with a proposal for this new procedure - they do all kinds of surgery there. I reckon you could get it done for free, if you're lucky; egotistical surgeons love to give surgeries for free to their guinea pigs, and even if he does ask you to pay it should be affordable - it's China after all where I hear you can get a blepharoplasty for $200. Tell us if you're successful and I will come. I'd love to reduce the size of my upper thorax, not to mention my shoulders. You may think I'm kidding about this, but I'm not. I mean it sincerely. If you have the resources, go to China.
Whereabouts on your thorax are you measuring 88cm anyway? Underbust? Under the armpits? Also, how tall are you?
The big problem with this whole concept is that over time the bodily organs grow to accomodate the chest cavity - if you suddenly placed them in a smaller capacity I'm not sure that they would react well.
In any case I dispute the idea that it is not possible to look normal with those measurements I have a bigger chest measurement than you and although I am at the "large" end of things there are plenty of women in the UK who are as big as me and indeed quite a few even bigger - including one or two who live quite close by.
So unless you live in a country where women are all midgets I think you may be being just a tiny bit prefectionist here.
I understand your point about this surgery being something which you feel would make you happy and of course that is what we would all say about our SRS. So I'm not in a position to criticise - but I do think that whereas SRS is thankfully practical and possible, your surgery would be difficult and may even be impossible. Be very careful about things you see on the net too - as an ex video editor I can tell you that such things are often manipulated and retouched. It may not be real.
Okay.
This thread is going in circles.
No surgeon will break the Upper ribs and reduce the size of your Thorax.
None.
Zero.
Nada.
Unless you go to a third world country and bribe a guy in a bar, and he'll just kill you.
This is the same guy as does the finger surgery.
Quote from: Veera on May 21, 2010, 04:23:05 AM
Really? Who does do it?
I'm actually super entertained by this response, because this is exactly what was going through my head when I read "I want to have surgery to make my chest smaller."
Quote from: Miniar on May 21, 2010, 06:24:00 AM
Unless you go to a third world country and bribe a guy in a bar, and he'll just kill you.
This is the same guy as does the finger surgery.
This place in Thailand does finger lengthening surgery:
http://thailand-plasticsurgery.com/plastic-surgery-prices.html (http://thailand-plasticsurgery.com/plastic-surgery-prices.html)
Scroll down to "Other Body Procedures" and you will see the finger lengthening surgery for $2,400 US. They even do toe-to-thumb transfers for $2,600 US. Amazing!
I don't think Thailand is third world...
Veera, dear, everyone here has sympathy for you, but can't, in good conscience advocate things such as bone-breaking that are medically unsound, and therefore dangerous to your health. Everyone has things they don't like about themselves and their bodies... that's life - nobody's perfect. IMVVHE broken, and even cracked ribs only hurt 2 times - every time you inhale, and every time you exhale. YMMV.
As was mentioned above, changing rib cage circumference does not change the shoulder width, so i guess then your next body mod project would be to get the scapula [shoulder blades] broken and re-set????? Go with the tightlacing idea, girl, corsets are sexy! :)
Wishing you all the best in your journey,
humbly,
hugs,
jannelle
'a lady in the drawing room, a wh**e in the bedroom.'
Thank you very much for the information andream! I will try to ask in sime chinese forums on surgery, maybe I will find something. Yea, 88 underburst.
You are still and still and still talking about women that have 88 and even bigger cimcuference. Don't I know it? Look, your goal is to pass as a woman in society, I don't want to be "oh, okay, it's normal, it's normal, yea, let's say it's a woman". I want to look like a woman in MY AGE. Normal, not fat, not very big, just 75/80 underburst.
As I told You... I have problem with my RIBS, not arms. My arms are small, and proportional to my height - 178. I want to do thorax, and that's all!
Miniar... look, I want to be happy with who I am. Actually, I'd rather not be woman with 88 in circumference, I think I'd rather be dead. Because I won't live this way. I will be thinking every second "did he notice that? did she notice that?! oh my god!" and second thing, when I'll be looking to the mirror, I will just take hammer and hit it as much as I can what I did many many times before.
I am very grateful for andream that she understands me. Thank you for the information and link! Maybe for others it's just horrible and unethical but... It's better than a suicide :) Thank You!
Quote from: Veera on May 21, 2010, 09:00:04 AM
You are still and still and still talking about women that have 88 and even bigger cimcuference. Don't I know it? Look, your goal is to pass as a woman in society, I don't want to be "oh, okay, it's normal, it's normal, yea, let's say it's a woman". I want to look like a woman in MY AGE. Normal, not fat, not very big, just 75/80 underburst.
I think I could find that mildly insulting if I wanted to :P For a start my own mother - who gave birth to me - and therefore WAS a natal female had an underbust of 96!
My underbust is very similar to hers - but I assure you that in nearly 30 years of living as a woman no one and I do mean NO ONE gives me a second look! That's because in the UK lots of women have dimensions ranging from 90 to 100 cm.
I may not be slim these days but I'm over 50 and, as those who have been on here for some while know, I have posted pics of myself when I was a young newly postop girl of 24 or so and back then I was far from fat - but my underbust was still well over 88 even then.
At the end of the day we are absolutely not going to fall out, because life is far too short to worry about such things, but I really do think you have a seriously distorted view of what constitutes the normal dimensions of modern womanhood.
Anyway let's agree to differ. I hope you find the solution you are looking for, but I do fear that the results may not bring you the peace you seek. :)
Quote from: Veera on May 19, 2010, 04:00:03 PM
I would be delighted if you would tell me any information about rib-cage (thorax) surgery. I am 88cm in circumference of thorax. I dream of being 75cm in circumference.
I think 88-cm chest circumference is normal for women here in my country.
Many men here have chests of > 100 cm circumference.
To my eyes, women with wide shoulder look more sexy if they have small waist. Women with narrow shoulder look weak and unhealthy to me.
When I was at 20's, I once fell in love with a girl. Her shoulder was very wide, and it seemed that her wide shoulder was a kind of stigma to her. As my narrow trunk had been a stigma to me, I envied her wide shoulder. Also, she envied my slim legs.
My trunk circumference is 78 cm, and I have never seen any man who has narrower chest than me. My narrower chest looked bizarre, and that had been the source of an untolerable sense of inferiority to me. I always wore baggy tees to hide it. However, once I started crossdressing, that suddenly became a valuable advantage in looking feminine.
Anyway, 88 cm is within the range of normality for women here.
Barbie~~
Thank you both for the answer, but You still don't get the point. I don't get how could you have complex of small thorax.
I don't like to repeat but I will do it to make it very clearly now.
I know that in the world are very different types of women, they are small, tall, fat, thin, 100 in circumference, and 75. I know that it seems to be normal. However, I just don't want to be that type of woman. I just dream to wear clinging shirts, that will show my tits, no big thorax as now. It won't be for me full-tasting of life if I can't wear what I would like to because of bone-structure. I want to make my dream come true... It sounds maybe idealistic, but NO! I don't want to be ideal. I just want to look as a girl in my age - Eighteen. I want to feel attractive, to feel well and comfortable with myself.
One of my friends, a cis-girl, has a bigger thorax than I do. Even bigger than you do.
She's 17.
88 isn't fat, it's not "not your age", it's Normal
Even for an 18 year old.
Quote from: Veera on May 21, 2010, 09:00:04 AM
I'd rather not be woman with 88 in circumference, I think I'd rather be dead. Because I won't live this way.
OK Veera, I strongly recommend that you seek professional psychological help, because this sort of thinking is
mentally ill (I speak from experience, autism). You've been told by nearly everybody here that your chest size is perfectly normal but you wont listen because your paranoia is creating a justification for you to butcher yourself.. There is nothing anyone can say to change your mind becuase you need to correct your frame of mind first.. :police:
Jenny ,can you re post those pics
Veera,I have a 83 cm underbust and my dream size would be 76 cm, but I'm at peace with it.What are your shoulder and hip measurements?
I am a ftm and Im 5'5" my ribcage is not 88cm not by along shot and im not on t.
I measured my ribcage and it was around 102cm at its smallest and at its widest was 105cm so ur ribcage is very small in my book. I am only 167 cm tall and I'm 16.
I dont even know how it is physicaly possible to have a ribcage of only 88 let alone 75. I dont think youd be able to breathe at 75.
You could also try losing weight ,I lost 8 pounds and lost half an inch from my under bust.
Quote from: tori319 on May 21, 2010, 03:29:11 PM
Jenny ,can you re post those pics
Veera,I have a 83 cm underbust and my dream size would be 76 cm, but I'm at peace with it.What are your shoulder and hip measurements?
Sure Tori - there you go - there is my favourite one of the 24 year old me. As you can see the biggest problem I had was not my chest and shoulder size but my tree trunk thighs which even today I dislike! So you see we all have things which are less than optimal...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3213%2F2731986516_c8fbdae9cd.jpg&hash=eef56b15b913f6f4d8da271ba964855613a55a2c)
It's MTF or Genetic Girl? Because she looks totally like a recycling for me from male to female. She can be genetic, but my big rib-cage isn't a complex because it's not feminine, just... I don't want to have such a big thorax. If this surgery is impossible, my life will be just horrible, thinking all the time about it, feeling bad... No everyone is supposed to be happy.
First of all I'll let the time work. I mean I will wait til breast grows, hair gets longer. I will try to optically fight with it.
Quote from: Veera on May 24, 2010, 05:45:26 AM
First of all I'll let the time work. I mean I will wait til breast grows, hair gets longer. I will try to optically fight with it.
Thats good, because what you need right now is
confidence not surgery ;D
I heard about this kind of surgery about 10 years ago where they cut a bit out of the lower ribs. But I haven't any data or feedback regarding who's actually had this operation or the outcome!
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on May 25, 2010, 06:58:22 PM
I heard about this kind of surgery about 10 years ago where they cut a bit out of the lower ribs. But I haven't any data or feedback regarding who's actually had this operation or the outcome!
Yea I think thats doable, but what Veera wants isnt to remove the bottom ribs, she wants to literally reduce the circumference of her rib-cage and make it smaller
Quote from: rejennyrated on May 24, 2010, 02:04:14 AM
Sure Tori - there you go - there is my favourite one of the 24 year old me. As you can see the biggest problem I had was not my chest and shoulder size but my tree trunk thighs which even today I dislike! So you see we all have things which are less than optimal...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3213%2F2731986516_c8fbdae9cd.jpg&hash=eef56b15b913f6f4d8da271ba964855613a55a2c)
Come on Jenny! Many of us would love to get that kind of exact female fat distribution in the thighs. My legs are so thin in comparison and I don't have the endomorphic body shape you have unfortunitely. Talk about making me envious!
Okay... I've read this from top to bottom here and I've got to simply state my piece:
Veera, first and foremost, we will always have to deal with the 'physical approximation' aspect of who we are as transsexual women (what the docs are technically shooting for on the OR table). Nothing will ever really make any of us as seamless as GG's unless we get on stuff early enough to head off some of the changes which happen to us (even then, chest cavity, shoulders, hands and feet seem governed by the Y chromosome). After that, it's cutting and grinding and sawing to get close enough to pass without issue for most but no matter what, you'll always see what you are feeling in that mirror, no matter what you look like.
No one has ever had what you are talking about. Many have hypothesized it and a few docs have looked into it but backed away when the implications were considered. The most common thing people do is remove the floating ribs but as already stated again and again, that's neither a good idea, nor what you're talking about.
The surgery that you're looking to do may not even be possible, first of all. There's no room under the ribcage to shrink stuff up very much. Want to find out how little room there is in there? Bruise a rib. The organs are pretty tight and compressing the heart-muscle is a terrible thing to do to your health. You want to take almost 10cm off. I've met people who have abnormally small torsos due to medical issues at birth. The result is a lifespan that's ~25 years shorter. You're 18 now and that seems like not such a bad deal, I'd wager but you'll feel different at 30, I can guarantee it.
Likely even the most adventurous docs in the world won't try this. You'd have to cut every rib and take pieces out of all of em then plate them back together while holding in all the chest stuff then wear a cast over your whole ribcage for a month or so. The results would also look silly if your shoulders are proportional to your ribcage and then you'd have to worry about THAT and I can assure that joints are a NO GO for cosmetic surgery.
Give yourself a few years to deal with this. If you're going SRS, that's a big step and an expensive one to get out of the way first and there's tons of other stuff that you can do. This procedure that you're thinking about will DEFINITELY shorten your life so I'm thinking that even if you find someone who would be willing to work with you on this, you'll be in a better position to deal with that decision a little later in life.
For the record, my chest is 88cm according to a measurement I just did and I can wear tight shirts fine (with many many MANY compliments). My favs are ones that are looong and tight so that they blend hips to chest without highlighting them as happens with male clothing. I just had to just get used to never being 'willowy', which is that impossible Gwyneth Paltrow look that I'd love to pull off but that's not in the cards for me and seems not for you. Acceptance of what is defines the difference between a kid and an adult, babe. You can find the way if you deal with things without the obsession that comes from over-thinking stuff like this. Feeling good about how you look is a direct result of feeling good about who you are and how you present yourself to the world.
Even with the wisdom that comes only from age an experience, this is a hard road to go through. Take time, forgive yourself for being human, find ways to cope.
With Love,
Victoria
If must, you can train your waist but also constrict ribcage as well with corsetry. Corsets have been around for quite a while and actually have resurfaced in the last 20 years. For some serious corsetters results are rather astounding and reduction is significant. Reduction does mostly happen in the waist area but while wearing a corset ribcage is also constricted. Just as girls point out though, properly functioning lungs are a vital part of a healthy body without it all sorts of complications arise. Try it Veera, you may like the results. Make sure though you get the right stuff!