Title really says it all, i was just thinking today... what is really the big deal??? I can't think of any reason why?
Maybe because it's not the norm? But who really cares, life is it short, you should be living it how you want to....
I don't know, there's a sort of feeling of "life is meaningless if I live it like this" feeling that comes with it. I wonder the same. Either way, I'm under enough stress that it's worth my time to find a solution.
Just another thing..... It's not like we are chosing to live as the other gender..... we were not born in the right boidies so what is the big deal.....
Quote from: justme19 on May 21, 2010, 01:57:54 AM
Just another thing..... It's not like we are chosing to live as the other gender..... we were not born in the right boidies so what is the big deal.....
And that makes it a big deal. As I always say "No one in their sane mind would go through this on purpose"
Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 21, 2010, 02:03:54 AM
And that makes it a big deal. As I always say "No one in their sane mind would go through this on purpose"
Yup. All I know is that it's real.
Ya got me. I dunno.
Exactly. I wish a day would come where everyone was accepted as they presented, no questions asked. :)
I'm gonna view it from the perspective of the people who aren't transitioning. Why is it such a big deal to them? Because we're changing who were are, at least in their eyes. Human gender and sexuality are such fundamental things, that if you mess with that, people simply find it hard to deal with. It forces them to question that which is fundamental to who they are. People don't like to be forced to question their life. By transitioning we become a walking statement against the status quo, whether we like it or not. That's why arguments such as gender, politics, religion etc are so heated, because these things involve the fundamentals of human mind and existence.
Quote from: SilverFang on May 21, 2010, 01:57:04 AM
I don't know, there's a sort of feeling of "life is meaningless if I live it like this" feeling that comes with it. I wonder the same.
That's how I always felt. Since about age 11, there was never a point to anything. No matter what I did, it didn't matter because I had to do it as someone else. Until now of course. Now it just feels good to be alive.
Quote from: andream on May 21, 2010, 03:22:51 AM
I'm gonna view it from the perspective of the people who aren't transitioning. Why is it such a big deal to them? Because we're changing who were are, at least in their eyes. Human gender and sexuality are such fundamental things, that if you mess with that, people simply find it hard to deal with. It forces them to question that which is fundamental to who they are. People don't like to be forced to question their life. By transitioning we become a walking statement against the status quo, whether we like it or not. That's why arguments such as gender, politics, religion etc are so heated, because these things involve the fundamentals of human mind and existence.
I agree with this. And the status quo is so important to so many people because of the simple fear of the unknown. The unknown is unmalleable, you can't control something you can't see or don't understand. It's an issue of control, and the need for control relates to fear.
The fact that gender is so fundamental to identity is also the very thing that makes it such a big deal to us too. It's one of the main components of the foundation upon which we build our lives. If the foundation is thrown off, everything else is thrown off with it.
Quote from: Jen on May 21, 2010, 04:47:25 AM
And the status quo is so important to so many people...
Actually I always prefered Dire Straits to Status Quo! :laugh:
(sorry - yes I'll get my coat - TAXI!)
although before I go a bit more seriously I think it is in part because a lot of people derive part of their own identities from who they are in relationship to us... therefore when you change yourself you also change a bt of them, and that can feel a bit like a rape of the personality.
I got something of the same feeling myself when one of my friends suddenly came out and transitioned. This was someone I had known for some while without any inkling that we were fellow travellers in that way! It felt a bit weird - like she was invading my territory! :embarrassed: (although I know of course that she wasn't...)
Quote from: rejennyrated on May 21, 2010, 05:03:20 AM
I think it is in part because a lot of people derive part of their own identities from who they are in relationship to us
In a way, this goes back to how gender is such a fundamental component of who we are and who we are perceived to be.
If somebody asks why would it have been so hard to just suck it up and live as the gender we were born with, the answer is it's been so hard for us to live in that guise for the very same reason it's so hard for them to see this "new person" as the same person we've always been. It's like, "This is me, and you can't see me as being this person. Can you see the problem?"
Gender is a big deal.
I think it really all goes back to tribalism. Our brains are hardwired that way, and living in larger communities doesn't seem to have caused us to evolve away from that...yet. We've only been living in larger groups (with more people than we personally know) for a few thousand years, really. I am curious to see what happens in the next ten thousand years. Or even five.
Oh, I forgot. I probably won't live that long. Bummer.
Quote from: Jen on May 21, 2010, 01:58:41 PMIn a way, this goes back to how gender is such a fundamental component of who we are
The big deal to me is because that "other gender" is not who I am. So to me it's not about living as the "other" gender (male), it's about living as MY gender (female). If I were male,
then it wouldn't be a big deal to live as one. But being female and trying to live as a male is just not healthy in any way. Hope all that makes sense.
I've given a lot of thought to this notion over the years.
There us a part of us, as a society, that refuses to view past wasy of living as being intrinsically incorrect.
We have cars for transport, but these only replace transport that we previously used. We have telephones, TV, medicines and so on. Each updates of what we previously had.
But fundimental preconceptions remain. What is is to be a man or a woman. Homosexuality.
If I had lived, say 100 years ago, or 200, 300, 400 years ago, would I have managed to survive any better than I am now?
I have to conclude that, in the past, I probably wouldn't have made it to adulthood.
If I consider the sources of my own difficulities with daily life, my innate effininacy, my sexuality, my continuing attempts to act out a part. The last of these, which has more or less, defined my own life, would have made it almost impossibe to function within the ordered existance of working class people in a society dominated by a social elite.
As someone born in the post WW2 world, I have been able to take advantage of the social breakdown of the old orders. The needs of an economy that could no longer cushion its limitations with the production of Africa and Asia meant that it became an imperitive to expand the entrepunerial pool to include those born in the lower classes. The priveledges of the social elite needed to be broken. Most of them seem to have retired into a sort of self imposed social exile. Living out their own pretensions, financed by their control of the profits from which they skimm their living.
This is a virtual mirror of the aristocricy, of course, many of whom have been living this way since the 17th century. Though, of course, they did so with the full agreement of the suceeding generation of social elite.
The opportunites are there for us. They aren't easy, nor are they free. They are certainly not an easy option.
We can reject a telephone, we can reject a car, a TV, electricity. We can reject the opportunity to change our gender.
But the question is, why?
I think the fundamental base for our hardship is in the need to be accepted, as many of you have already stated, in the societal structure. It isn't of who we are or who we aren't but how we are perceived by others, those with close ties and those totally inconsequential. It is all in introverted life perception which makes for our anxiety, we have a black whole of a brain which sucks in all the information surrounding us and calculates our position within. So for instance I just read one post here about passing with no intention, and this event was of magnificent happiness, of course it was but scientifically why was it so grand when the person inside is still the same person who was there ll along even when not passing! We are a sponge of human emotion and unfortunately can not separate other than building a concrete shell around our sole, but everyone here knows bit about this. We want to be free of negative and full of positive and that goes for our appearance because it is the first dimension of human existence within a group. Almost to the point that nothing else matters as much as projecting a appropriate female character. We do not want to be judged but just pass thru life with feeling of assigned purpose. For us, part of that purpose is to be a woman.
Before starting my transition my feelings were more like;
My life is not worth living if I live this way. I have to make my life worth living and be myself, not be scared anymore.
Low and behold, my whole outlook on life has changed dramatically since starting HRT 2 months ago (25th or March ;) ) I am now a much more positive person, and actually care about myself, and care more for people around me. ^_^
It's a big deal to others who are not like us, mainly because most of them will never question themselves as we all have. They do not nor can not understand our existence. Because they don't understand it they fear it, fear leads to hate and hate leads to suffering. Human kind destroys what it fears and hate thus my most people hate us and wish harm upon us.
Quote from: Nero on May 21, 2010, 04:00:05 AM
That's how I always felt. Since about age 11, there was never a point to anything. No matter what I did, it didn't matter because I had to do it as someone else. Until now of course. Now it just feels good to be alive.
Cool to see I'm not alone. Well, I don't want anyone to really deal with problems but it makes me seem a little less alone.
Look at it from a cultural/media studies point of view, the big deal comes from the fact that the gender binary is the dominant discourse in our society. Because what we go through and do is in opposition to this discourse makes it a big deal. Most people don't even think about the whole gender binary thing, to them it is merely natural and logical that men are men and women are women, but then that is the whole point of a dominant discourse, it naturalises a certain way of thinking. We know differently however and just by being ourselves we force people to question what they believe about the world and maybe even re-evaluate themselves in relation to those beliefs.
Basically what we need to do is change the dominant discourse and naturalise it to the point that it achieves the status of myth that the whole gender binary thing enjoys in western society. The only way I can see of doing this is by getting Jenny elected as galactic president I'm sure we'd see some changes then. hehe
So the moral of this is vote Jenny for Galactic President!
Society, whatever that is, and I would love a definition, does not accept people outside of that society. For example religious intolerance, racial intolerance, habit intolerance, sexual intolerance, I just don't like you intolerance. These are prime societal factors and have been throughout evolution, in all animals. We are perceived as different, therefore we are rejected by the majority. Why? Because we are different and therefore an evolutionary hazard to the majority in that society.
Cindy
The philosophy of General Semantics points out that people's image of themselves can be very fragile, and if anything affects their Self-Image they take it as a threat to their actual existence. They confuse image with reality.
By inference the people in question regard anything that they can observe, that changes without their approval, as a threat to that self image. Even if it is not. Effectively they want to have a veto over everyone they have contact with. If you change, then maybe they will change, and they won't be them any more. It in many ways is a question of ego, and the wish to control.
For me, it wasn't about living as the "other gender". It was about living in my correct gender, female. It was before transition when I was living "in the wrong gender" because everyone saw "a bloke" and that was the biggest lie that ever existed. I was never a bloke in spite of what my physical appearance showed. Now my outside is female and matches what I've always been on the inside. So for me transition and GRS were a way to affirm my real gender not "changing" it.
Quote from: justme19 on May 21, 2010, 01:44:52 AM
Title really says it all, i was just thinking today... what is really the big deal??? I can't think of any reason why?
Maybe because it's not the norm? But who really cares, life is it short, you should be living it how you want to....
i have no idea, people just are raised to believe that "toying" with your gender is a capital crime.
The most difficult thing for me was to accept myself. One of the tools I used to keep this part of myself hidden was to convince myself how bad it was.
Once I got past that, the occasional person that takes issue is easier to deal with. (And it only took a little over 50years!)
People are raised to think that boys have penises and girls have vaginas.
Since that is true, most of the time, people can't imagine that it's possible for a boy to have a vagina or a girl to have a penis. They think we should just get over it because they are comfortable with their bodies and don't realize it doesn't work that way.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 21, 2010, 02:03:54 AM
And that makes it a big deal. As I always say "No one in their sane mind would go through this on purpose"
OMG, I think I said this exact thing to my therapist last week. I wouldn't wish this on anyone.
(Hypothetical)
My parents had a son.
My friends see me as one of the guys.
My wife married a man.
My children know me as dad.
When I change that I mess it up. It is painful for them - like losing someone they loved. I know, having transitioned I've seen the pain in their eyes. Call it societal bias, but it doesn't change the pain it causes them.
Most men want to marry a GG and are repulsed at the idea of marrying someone who doesn't fit that mold. Call that homophobia, but it doesn't change the reality of we are attracted to those whom we are attracted to.
or maybe because gender is viewed as a major part of our identities, and people shun someone who is changing theirs, because they feel like it makes them a bigger person, when really, they can't be feeling to confident in their own identities if they have to seek people like us out, and torment.
Quote from: interalia on May 23, 2010, 09:42:37 AM
(Hypothetical)
My parents had a son.
My friends see me as one of the guys.
My wife married a man.
My children know me as dad.
When I change that I mess it up. It is painful for them - like losing someone they loved. I know, having transitioned I've seen the pain in their eyes. Call it societal bias, but it doesn't change the pain it causes them.
Most men want to marry a GG and are repulsed at the idea of marrying someone who doesn't fit that mold. Call that homophobia, but it doesn't change the reality of we are attracted to those whom we are attracted to.
Do they see the pain in
your eyes?
I still am waiting for the first person from my past ask me about
my feelings. All anybody wants to talk about is how this will theoretically affect everybody else. I put myself through so much misery vainly trying to play the role I was assigned because I cared about these people's feelings. When I reached the end of my rope and had to start caring about mine, however, I found out nobody was willing to return the favor.
I won't make the same mistake with these people again, and I certainly am not going to be worrying myself with the feelings of people that feel repulsed by me, for goodness sakes. I find such people repulsive in their own right.
I am a girl. I always was a girl and now that I am living as one I feel natural and at peace. Many people don't understand that our condition is not chosen but hard wired and since they are happy in their physical gender they cannot understand why others are not so it is a big deal to them. I think it is a man issue because every woman I know is very supportive of my transition. Fortunately times are changing and although there will always be those who dislike us things are much better now.
Pam
My family is fairly religious, with both my parents having been raised as Catholics. My Wife's family is even more so, with her grandfather being a (now deceased) ultra-conservative protestant minister (the type where Bush part deux was too liberal). For all of them, this will be a huge huge huge deal. My mom already knows, and has for about a decade but went into total denial for a really long time. For all of these people, it really comes down to screwing with God's work. (of course they don't know that my wife was a lesbian before we met. How ironic.)
For me, I'm hoping to correct God's mistake. Growing up, my mom always said "when it came time to get in line for common sense, you got in the wrong line." Turns out I got in the wrong line for a vagina too.
Quote from: Jen on May 23, 2010, 04:42:34 PM
Do they see the pain in your eyes?
I still am waiting for the first person from my past ask me about my feelings. All anybody wants to talk about is how this will theoretically affect everybody else. I put myself through so much misery vainly trying to play the role I was assigned because I cared about these people's feelings. When I reached the end of my rope and had to start caring about mine, however, I found out nobody was willing to return the favor.
I won't make the same mistake with these people again, and I certainly am not going to be worrying myself with the feelings of people that feel repulsed by me, for goodness sakes. I find such people repulsive in their own right.
I didn't say they were right or wrong, but the OP wanted to know what the big deal was about changing sex - I listed a few very poignant reasons why someone might be against it.
EDIT: As for me, most of the people in my life are keenly aware of my feelings. I could be at a party, suddenly get down from my GID and start to shy away from others. No sooner than that happens than a friend will come sit down next to me and ask, "Hey, Alex, are you alright? Is your GID getting to you again? Wanna talk about it?" I'm lucky though to have surrounded myself with such people - but then again I've always been considerate of them and they are equally considerate of me.
Quote from: interalia on May 23, 2010, 09:29:11 PM
I didn't say they were right or wrong, but the OP wanted to know what the big deal was about changing sex - I listed a few very poignant reasons why someone might be against it.
I already gave an answer to the OP's question. I was addressing
your post, where I saw a familiar line of reasoning that has been used in many conversations that left me in tears.
I am just so finished with hearing about how I'm hurting people by just being myself. I think it's only fair to weigh that supposed pain against my own. I'm pretty sure the truth about me isn't taking anybody to the dark places it has taken me.
Anyway, yes I guess it struck a nerve with me is all.