Does this seem to annoy anyone else as well? I first realised it when I was coming out of a hotel with my girlfriend. A guy held the door open and said ladies first, but I went through as well after and said thank you. I thought that the guy wouldn't have held the door open for me, because i'm a boy. What's wrong with being polite to everyone regardless of gender? Basing it off of gender is stupid. You could argue that girls are generally weaker, although would the same thing happen with a small guy?
Another thing that irritates me is the concept of that boys can't hit girls. When I first say this to other people they say that i'm a woman beater, but i'm not. I think it's unacceptable to hit anyone without a good reason, but I will defend myself if it came round to it. There are abusive women out there. I also hate women that take advantage of this and slap the ->-bleeped-<- out of boys, because they know they won't get anything back.
Amy x
Physical violence is truly the last resort of the terminally incompetant!
The thing about not hitting women is obviously based on the generalisation that men are, on average, stronger than women. But I agree, whilst the principle may be laudable, in practice it is often horribly abused and not just in physicallity.
When you factor in that most women have a larger vocabulary and superior linguistic flexibility it means that denying men any recourse of physical response can seem a bit like condemning them to endure years of clever and waspish provoccation without expecting any come back.
I don't approve hitting people, but neither do I particularly like my sex's chosen weapon which is the tongue.
The brainless moron who first said "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm me" probably should have tried growing up openly transgender in the 1960's and going to school, whilst legally male, wearing a skirt. I did it, and I continued to do it, but if am being honest for once, I have to admit that there were times when it took and incredible amount of will power and emotional resilience to do so.
I'm in San Antonio (mildly conservative by US standards), and it's rare for anyone to say "ladies first." I can't even recall someone saying it the past five years. People generally hold doors on the merits of the situation (they hold it to keep the door from hitting someone, or for someone who has a hard time moving around).
Violence is not all that common in my circle, so I may have a skewed result, but I think there is a greater tendency to consider more the physical ability of the participants involved rather than focus on the gender, and a lot of discussion actually deals with the "merits" of violence (who did what leading up to the confrontation, their mental states, how offensive/defensive were the participants, etc). Granted, some people will bring attention to the fact that a female is strong relative to other women if she hurts a male who is weaker than her, and some people may still speak with some flavor of the old ways, but the prevailing attitudes are much better than they were historically. It may "help" that much more of serious violence is weapon-related (which can strip away some if not all of a physical advantage) and that men overall do not possess the same physical advantage they did in the past (exercising is more egalitarian today, so social factors do not contribute as much to physical disparity).
But language is a powerful weapon, and while social factors seem to contribute towards women developing it, it's wielded by men as well. There are quite a few people who make a living out of using language as a weapon, and it's generally legal.
Leave chivalry alone!!!! But seriously, I totally love it. When I was living as a male I always treated women with the utmost respect and holding doors, offering my seat, etc was standard for me. Perhaps it is from me growing up in the south.
Women have to put up with the testosteronial (new word) urges and actions of guys so why can't they offer to hold a door for us?
Quote from: Dana Lane on June 05, 2010, 11:17:25 AM
Leave chivalry alone!!!! But seriously, I totally love it. When I was living as a male I always treated women with the utmost respect and holding doors, offering my seat, etc was standard for me. Perhaps it is from me growing up in the south.
Women have to put up with the testosteronial (new word) urges and actions of guys so why can't they offer to hold a door for us?
lol totally agree with you Dana, though I also agree that politeness should extend to everyone regardless of gender. Being courteous and polite is free, but the good will it generates is priceless.
Quote from: Dana Lane on June 05, 2010, 11:17:25 AMso why can't they offer to hold a door for us?
Why can't it happen regardless of gender?
Opening door for women is not tradition here, but it was not bad when some guys opened the door for me when I was in the U.S. A few of them even saluted me :o
I believe offering favor is always nice.
Barbie~~
Quote from: Amy on June 05, 2010, 11:56:32 AM
Why can't it happen regardless of gender?
It does where I live.
my brothers were all taught by my dad that gentlemen hold the doors for ladies carry their bags and always walk on the outside of the path. guess it filtered thro to me as well cos thats how i've always treated ladies
Quote from: Amy on June 05, 2010, 11:56:32 AM
Why can't it happen regardless of gender?
I am totally happy with the way it is now. You are more than welcome to not be happy with it. :)
I don't hit women...
BECAUSE THEY HIT BACK AND THEY DON'T FIGHT FAIR!
...
Where I live polite people like me hold the door open for anyone. That's how we roll.
I think the women hitting men one is a real toughie. It all depends on the situation. I won't go into too much detail, but I was in an abusive situation before I transitioned, with a straight cisgendered male. He was an abusive alcoholic, who used to wind me up and degrade me until I flew into a rage and started bashing him. Then he would try and make me feel guilty about it and make out like it was no big deal if he'd hit me, because in the past I had hit him. Even though he was bigger and stronger than me.
Bad times. Even though I'm not a woman, I feel pretty strongly about this.
Most doors are of a size that one adult can walk through at a time. Common courtesy means that people give way to others. If some one is infirm, disabled in movement, heavily pregnant or carrying a heap of stuff (etc) it should be clear that they cannot afford being hit by a swinging door. And also in some cases need clear passage. You hold the door open and make sure they are safe. If boys and girls are out together for a date Yes I expect the 'boy' to show courtesy to the 'girl'.
In normal life people are equal, I suggest that common courtesy by all genders is to allow people clear access through doors without being hit or tripped. Who holds the door open is the first to reach it, does it have to be held open for everyone? No just pass the way through. But if you are the last through and a person coming needs help you wait and allow them passage.
I think the rule is simple, it's the rule of life. Treat others as how you wish to be treated.
As for violence. All violence is bad. Sadly in family situations females usually receive the worst deal. Most men are physically stronger than most females. They can punch kick and dominate the physical situation. And then they can rape.
Cindy
Common courtesy and genuine politeness make for a more pleasant world. With regard to doors, whoever hasn't got their arms full should be happy to do the job regardless of gender.
Violence is a crime, regardless of gender.
Also young people are expected to be polite towards elderly. As living woman I have somehow realized that even more. I do not know why but it has been come very much more visible for me when I have been lived as female. ???
Quote from: darklady on June 07, 2010, 06:06:03 AM
Also young people are expected to be polite towards elderly. As living woman I have somehow realized that even more. I do not know why but it has been come very much more visible for me when I have been lived as female. ???
Whether they should be respected individually depends, but I think it should be expected to hold the door open for them and to offer your seat.
I understand totally about the boys hitting girls thing. I remember once on Jeremy Kyle (yes I watch it lol) everyone was on this guys side until he said he had hit his girlfriend and they all hated him. Im not saying you should hit women but I know a lot of abusive women who smack their boyfriends all the time and everyones fine with it. If the lad smacks back everyone is digusted. I'm sorry but if I was getting beat up by a girl i'd push her back.
Girls shouldnt hit guys
Guy shouldnt hit girls.
Quote from: MRH on June 07, 2010, 01:16:51 PMIm not saying you should hit women but I know a lot of abusive women who smack their boyfriends all the time and everyones fine with it. If the lad smacks back everyone is digusted.
That's something that really bothers me as well. I saw a video once where these people did an experiment. They had a couple sit on a park bench and have the guy start "hitting" the girl in front of passersby, which led to much commotion and anger. Then they had the girl start whaling on the guy, which either triggered no response or actually led to people cheering her on. (These were separate occurances, with different people, so they didn't see it as her 'fighting back' in response to his 'hitting.') It just struck me as really sad. Even in highschool, I'd see girls hitting their boyfriends with immunity because "boys shouldn't hit girls." Even though girls are generally not as strong and less likely to hurt guys, it's really disrespectful at the least.
I'm also all for politeness and holding the door for people who need it and those coming in close behind me, but if I'm approaching a door and a guy goes out of his way to get there first and open it, I'm just going to get annoyed. (I've always been this way, even before my dysphoria properly set in, so it's not just that...)
^ this also goes for girl on girl fights, that's why people (mostly guys) cheer them on, cause it reminds them of sex, all the facial grimaces, huffing and puffing, sweating, clothes torn etc. Crude, but true. So public displays of females fighting anyone is a real crowd pleaser. ::)
IMO, I don't think anyone should be hitting anyone else, except when it's in self defense. When girls hit they can hurt, some more than others, but generally speaking, guys pack a powerful punch and can knock a girl out in one hit. That would be very rare incident, visa versa.
The hitting thing drives me completely nuts. I've seen a disgusting amount of girls slapping and hitting and generally blatantly abusing their boyfriends but heaven forbid if they so much as give them a shoulder shove back, it turns the boyfriend into the insta-super-villain of the situation.
Gender equality should work both ways.
Quote from: Jeatyn on June 08, 2010, 05:09:54 AM
The hitting thing drives me completely nuts. I've seen a disgusting amount of girls slapping and hitting and generally blatantly abusing their boyfriends but heaven forbid if they so much as give them a shoulder shove back, it turns the boyfriend into the insta-super-villain of the situation.
Gender equality should work both ways.
And when you say this to people they label you as a women beater. I hate it.
I agree with Jeatyn: Gender equality should work both ways.
I don't mind a guy holding a door for me at all, as long as he doesn't mind me holding it for him :laugh:
The hitting girls part I have a problem with tho... not in theory, 'cause self defense i'm totally ok with... just when a girl hits me I really can't hit back. My body just won't let me. I'll just take it or walk away...
Guess I'm just programmed or s'thing...? Or maybe it's because I know my strength and don't wanna end up in jail or with a law suit.. :police:
Post Merge: June 08, 2010, 06:20:25 PM
Just thought of something that happened to me last week at work, curious to know what you guys think:
My former manager warned me about getting coffee for my current manager, cause apparently he might read it as a "submissive female" act..
T o t a l l y w e i r d !!!!
You see to me, coffee is a warm black drink that keeps me awake, and I like to drink it during meetings, so whenever I meet with ppl I bring them a cup along with my own..
I really don't see anything submissive in being nice to others and don't distinguish between peers, managers, or the cable guy when I pour them a cup.
Anyway... am I naive or was I right in telling my former manager that his warning is totally sexist, and that he should get unstuck from his 1950's attitude?
Quote from: Jeatyn on June 08, 2010, 05:09:54 AM
The hitting thing drives me completely nuts. I've seen a disgusting amount of girls slapping and hitting and generally blatantly abusing their boyfriends but heaven forbid if they so much as give them a shoulder shove back, it turns the boyfriend into the insta-super-villain of the situation.
Gender equality should work both ways.
The thing is, physically, cisguys and girls at least, are not equal. I know, because when I was still a "girl" and I had an abusive partner I could hit him til the cows came home and although I left some nasty bruises, he was never scared of me. He was in control. When he held me down so I couldn't move and threatened to beat the living sh*t out of me, it was terrifying. I actually couldn't move. He wasn't a big guy, but that just drove the point home that he was physically stronger than me. It was horrible.
It's just that 90% of the time, girls hitting guys are not in the same catagory as guys hitting girls. I am not denying that there are abusive women out there. However, the victims of physical abusive, and other types of domestic abuse are largely women.
If you're a decent man and yr girlfriend starts slapping and hitting you for no good reason, the right thing to do is to remove yourself from the situation. Say you're not going to engage in that kinda stuff. A guy's minor smack can really hurt a girl. You don't know your own strength.
I also think people choose to ignore the reasons girls might hit guys. It usually comes from a place of helplessness and desperation rather than power. What I've seen at least. And I've seen a lot.
Quote from: Amy on June 08, 2010, 04:58:07 PM
And when you say this to people they label you as a women beater. I hate it.
Huh? ??? If a girl hits her boyfriend, he should leave. If a guy hits his girlfriend, she should leave. What is so hard to understand?
For some unknown reason you're giving the impression that guys have to put up with a girl hitting him. No way! So if a guy starts hitting back
he is a woman beater.I think holding doors open and giving up a seat is a kind gesture. No one should expect it, but it's a kind thing to do. :)
Holding doors for people is just polite, I don't see a gender deal in it as much anymore as simple common courtesy.
I don't really mind people holding doors open for me; I consider it an act of kindness. Unless they say "ladies first", in which case I turn a bit childish. I stand outside the door and tell them to go first, most of the time they won't, but I refuse to budge an inch until they go through the door. It'd be funny if I wasn't insulted. :D
And I'm not even going to get into the whole "I don't hit girls" thing. It's just ridiculous.
Quote from: tekla on June 08, 2010, 11:08:08 PM
Holding doors for people is just polite, I don't see a gender deal in it as much anymore as simple common courtesy.
Absolutely, it is common courtesy and it should not be a gender deal, but sometimes its nice if your on the receiving end, only yesterday I hailed a cab, the cab driver actually got out of his cab to hold the door for me, I thanked him as my hands where busy with bags, he just replyed ''no problem, he always held doors open for ladies, just the way he was reared'' I thought it was really nice and super sweet, I guess he was just Being a Gentleman.
p
*Nods* Indeed, Vexing!
And in the NL, a true lady does the same. ^_^
As for hitting back: I've had an abusive childhood. As a 'male.' From that, I've learnt only one thing: If you intend to hurt me, I'll hurt you a hell of a lot more. Mind that this is after years and years. I think that if a weaker person willingly attacks a stronger person, then Darwin awards should be handed out, don't you agree? If a stronger person is the aggressor, then of course the weaker person must be protected. If the stronger person is the defender, then I think the idiot who started the attack will just have to reap what they sow.
There are other ways of solving a dispute than violence. Violence is only a last resort action, and only then in a situation where you have to defend yourself from physical harm.
Yes, I have, in my past, knocked out some women, as a born male. But if I get attacked, I will defend myself.
I'm sorry, but I too feel very strongly about concerns like this. At age 26, over a decade of my life has been nothing but violence.
And now I'll just shut up, because I'm starting to tear and tremble. Sorry if I was a bit too strong about this.
i wont associate with a male who goes all Victorian era on me. if i hit you, i expect you to hit me back..because then we got an excuse to WRASSLE YALL...:icon_boxing: :icon_rockon:
maybe that's just cuz im a redneck though.
I am also of the opinion that gender shouldn't matter in matter such as opening the door for someone. I'm gonna go off on a bit of a tangent here though.
I've noticed a lot of my older male teachers tend to concentrate more on their pretty female students, even to the point of sometimes outright flirting with them and outright ignoring male students. I wonder sometimes, are they just being polite and acting the way they were raised to (as in guys don't need help, while girls need all the help they can get)? Or do they actually think that if they keep trying they will get in these girls' pants? Either way it's disgusting behavior for a teacher.
Quote from: Hauser on June 15, 2010, 07:47:58 PM
i wont associate with a male who goes all Victorian era on me. if i hit you, i expect you to hit me back..because then we got an excuse to WRASSLE YALL...:icon_boxing: :icon_rockon:
maybe that's just cuz im a redneck though.
Me too! Redneck, born and raised. One of my guy friends and I like to spar with lightsabers, wooden poles, broomsticks, etc. and I was getting annoyed because at first he wouldn't hit me back, just barely tap me. Kept giving me the "I don't hit girls" line. Well, I got him to change that up after I gave him a bloody lip. :D
Note- I'm not a violent person, but if I'm messing around play fighting I expect to have some fun with it and not be treated like a 2 year old or the heirloom gravy boat, because that's just not any fun at all.
Quote from: Coppélia on June 16, 2010, 01:38:55 AM
I am also of the opinion that gender shouldn't matter in matter such as opening the door for someone. I'm gonna go off on a bit of a tangent here though.
I've noticed a lot of my older male teachers tend to concentrate more on their pretty female students, even to the point of sometimes outright flirting with them and outright ignoring male students. I wonder sometimes, are they just being polite and acting the way they were raised to (as in guys don't need help, while girls need all the help they can get)? Or do they actually think that if they keep trying they will get in these girls' pants? Either way it's disgusting behavior for a teacher.
It is totally inappropriate and should be reported to the Principal. I teach at University level in Australia and anyone demonstrating that sort of behaviour would be out damn quick, and should be as well IMO.
Cindy
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 15, 2010, 06:38:00 PM
A true gentleman holds the door open for other gentlemen as well, not just ladies.
I agree with that quote, absolutely, common courtesy, not a gender thing, cab driver said it, just a nice moment, he even offered to carry my bags, as my Mother use to say, its nice to be nice, common courtesy costs nothing.
p
Quote from: Nathan. on June 05, 2010, 12:52:08 PM
It does where I live.
It's how it happens here too. And it's how I behave aswell. You do it for anyone.
Quote from: elvistears on June 08, 2010, 06:58:42 PM
The thing is, physically, cisguys and girls at least, are not equal. I know, because when I was still a "girl" and I had an abusive partner I could hit him til the cows came home and although I left some nasty bruises, he was never scared of me. He was in control. When he held me down so I couldn't move and threatened to beat the living sh*t out of me, it was terrifying. I actually couldn't move. He wasn't a big guy, but that just drove the point home that he was physically stronger than me. It was horrible.
It's just that 90% of the time, girls hitting guys are not in the same catagory as guys hitting girls. I am not denying that there are abusive women out there. However, the victims of physical abusive, and other types of domestic abuse are largely women.
If you're a decent man and yr girlfriend starts slapping and hitting you for no good reason, the right thing to do is to remove yourself from the situation. Say you're not going to engage in that kinda stuff. A guy's minor smack can really hurt a girl. You don't know your own strength.
I also think people choose to ignore the reasons girls might hit guys. It usually comes from a place of helplessness and desperation rather than power. What I've seen at least. And I've seen a lot.
Amen.
I think we'd all like to believe that both sexes are equal in strength, but the amount of testosterone running in their bodies plays a huge part. A cisgender woman doesn't have the same muscle density, even if the guy doesn't work out.
It depends on the situation, but in most cases you should flee a physical fight no matter who you're facing.
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 17, 2010, 12:45:22 AM
Nor does a transgender woman who has been on hormones for a couple of years.
Yep.
I once saw this girl coming down the hall in high school, so I grabbed the door and held it open for her. As she came through she bumped into me, hissed 'watch where you're going!' and strut off in a huff. Is that twisted or what?! haha I always liked those traditional 'boy' rules of being a gentleman, mostly because they feel like something that sets us apart you know? I suppose, though, it would be right for everyone to be polite to everyone else. I feel a little bit like being a 'gentleman' to women is ours.
Yikes. Next time I'll let ya get the door yourself, if you really want to o.o
Being polite is about being polite. If anyone is using good manners to score 'sexual points' they are no longer good manners, they are just blatant sexism and not welcome by any respectful person. Possibly James-Allen you have found a really good technique for alienating girls. Sad that.
Cindy
QuoteThe thing is, physically, cisguys and girls at least, are not equal. I know, because when I was still a "girl" and I had an abusive partner I could hit him til the cows came home and although I left some nasty bruises, he was never scared of me. He was in control. When he held me down so I couldn't move and threatened to beat the living sh*t out of me, it was terrifying. I actually couldn't move. He wasn't a big guy, but that just drove the point home that he was physically stronger than me. It was horrible.
It's just that 90% of the time, girls hitting guys are not in the same catagory as guys hitting girls. I am not denying that there are abusive women out there. However, the victims of physical abusive, and other types of domestic abuse are largely women.
If you're a decent man and yr girlfriend starts slapping and hitting you for no good reason, the right thing to do is to remove yourself from the situation. Say you're not going to engage in that kinda stuff. A guy's minor smack can really hurt a girl. You don't know your own strength.
I also think people choose to ignore the reasons girls might hit guys. It usually comes from a place of helplessness and desperation rather than power. What I've seen at least. And I've seen a lot.
Quoted for truth
Sometimes some folks just need to calm down in my opinion lol. Women who generally must accept lower salaries to their masculine counterparts in the same occupational field is an instance of sexism. The assumption that women can't be mechanics or drive a decent airplane is an instance of sexism. Blaming women for dressing provocatively or walking in the wrong part of town after they had been raped is an instance of sexism. Excuse me for my ignorance but crying sexism when someone opens the door for you in a hallway just sounds ridiculous to me - perhaps I'm reading folks statements wrong. We don't want the word sexism to become as overused and deluded as the word racism is starting to become. That kind of stuff erodes the significance and meaning from the word.
Most men generally think about sex four or five times a day according to a study conducted by the Kinsey institute. Do men open doors to score sexual points? Absolutely. They will usually proceed to stare at your ass as you walk by. I know I might be playing up stereotypes, and I know this is the wrong forum for that, but really - Having thoughts and feelings like this is typical and normal in men. It's not alarming or creepy. I think a lot of FTMs on T can vouch for how horny it makes you. I think it would be unfair to expect otherwise.
All in all, If I ever see a girl who gives me an attitude for being polite because they've got it in their head that by being courteous I'm actually being misogynistic I might think her cheese had slid off her cracker.
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 18, 2010, 01:13:36 AM
You mean benevolent sexism - and yes, you can keep it; put it in a box in the attic and leave it there.
Ah Vexing, I think your little hard on James, I think that girl had an attitude towards James.
Quote from: James-Allen on June 18, 2010, 01:10:38 AM
I always liked those traditional 'boy' rules of being a gentleman, mostly because they feel like something that sets us apart you know? I suppose, though, it would be right for everyone to be polite to everyone else. I feel a little bit like being a 'gentleman' to women is ours.
I understand what you mean, and you are a Gentleman, your can open my door anytime, my Dad was a real traditional Gentleman, treated my Mother like a lady, treated me like a lady when my transition was complete, when a guy opens a door for me, it makes feel feminine, everybody deserves respect, but I like a guy who has respect for a woman, I do like a Gentleman.
p
Thinking someone opening a door for you signifies inferiority seems like a personal issue. I'm not a raging sex machine, in fact, I'm not even straight. There's no oggling going on, it's just nice, especially since women actually acknowledge you. opening the door for a guy is polite I suppose, but mostly just awkward. maybe it's because I live in a conservative town where having a ->-bleeped-<- open a door for you is actually worse than doing in yourself, but that's the result. You're not being oppressed because I pulled the chair out for you at the table, you're being oppressed when you can't wear pants or vote. I don't understand with all the big issues in the world why manner etiquette so heavily threatens your feelings of strength as a woman. If you as a person don't like it, tell the guy in the wrong that you don't appreciate his offer. Don't cry 'woman hater'.
You're taking this issue WAY too far. Comparing holding a door open for you to rape is just insanity. Personally, with all the delinquents and jerks in the world right now (I ride public transit a lot so I meet plenty of them), teaching them some semblance of manners is a step up. I'd rather guys held doors open for women then slapped their arses like they did in High School. You might as well wear a sign around you neck that says how men shouldn't treat you, like a set of pool rules, then men will be 'better next time' and not try to care about you.
I agree with Vexing. Door holding seems harmless, but the idea behind it is definitely sexist. I think most people can see the difference between common courtesy door holding - my school has swipe card access of every door, so if you see someone a few meters behind you, of course you'd hold the door, male or female - but chivalrous practices like that are different. Some women do enjoy it, as seen on this thread, but it doesn't mean all do. It can be tricky though, because I will help anyone with their bags, or the door, male or female if they appear to be struggling. But that's totally different to being a "gentleman".
I think practices and attitudes like this subconsciously help keep sexist attitudes attitudes alive. As a trans man I feel a responsibility to be non sexist and will be keeping my attitudes in check once I start T. Being hornier or whatever is not an excuse for me to be creepy towards women. I've been a feminist since forever and I intend to keep it that way.
sex·ism (sěk'sĭz'əm)
n.
Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.
While it MAY be a sexist trait...it isn't a BAD one unless other avenues go with it. I've always lived by the rule of thumb: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...
But then..how do you know if the male that's opening the door for you is being sexist or if he does it for men too? Stop and ask? I was brought up in the south and that's just how we are...you say hello to everyone you see, smile and yes, hold doors open. I like doors held open for me even...if I see someone going through a door and they know I'm behind them and they just walk through, I think them rude...
And I truly don't think holding a door open for a lady and smiling at her makes her frail or weak. And I certainly don't THINK that either...Not all men run around thinking women are weak in this day and age anyway, from what I've seen. In fact, we see them as very strong when they want to be...but then you DO have them weak women and/or those women that take advantage of a man's position as well...there's sexism on all sides...to say a man is holding a door open is sexist, is sexist in itself...At least that's how I personally see it.
And the occasional stranger you never seen before and never will see again?
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 19, 2010, 02:58:34 AM
I don't judge random strangers; until proven otherwise, I assume that they hold doors open for everyone - regardless of gender.
What, did you think I get my RAGE helmet on every time a man holds a door open for me?
That's a little...out there to ask..Actually..I didn't think anything. Was trying to get to the bottom of..'Holding a door open for a woman is sexist' thing...Trying to wrap my brain around your brain so I can understand where you're coming from. I don't make assumed thoughts on how another thinks...So, there has to be an actual path and observation stage before they're considered a 'sexist'? That I can hang with...from how the conversation was going, it was starting to sound like all men should never ever hold a door open for a woman or they're a sexist pig.
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 19, 2010, 03:41:31 AM
These statements are contradictory.
No, one statement was based on the way you thought I thought of you PERSONALLY. The other statement was based on how the conversation was swaying for me to come to a theory on what's being discussed. Not contradictory at all. I had not come up with any personal views on yourself or anything you do in your life...whether you wear a rage helmet or not is irrelevant to me. But, I was trying to get a better understanding of the topic at hand, hence the other part of the statement...the conversation was leaning to this or that understanding of said conversation
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 19, 2010, 04:09:05 AM
We will have to agree to disagree on that point.
I think we will all just have to agree to disgree on what is sexist, personal opinion and personal experience, my own personal experience and opinion on men opening doors for ladies its not sexist but just good etiquette.
Sexist is bad and threating behavior.
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 18, 2010, 04:27:58 PM
The origin of door-holding is 'chivalry' (modern chivalry, not the knightly stuff). Chivalry expresses the idea that women are weak, frail, delicate and beautiful, while men are strong, robust, durable and handsome - therefore men, being the stronger, more robust of the sexes, should perform certain duties for women, since women are so frail and delicate that they couldn't possibly cope with such activities on their own (like carrying things for them, holding doors open for them and putting their coat over puddles, since women are so mentally fragile they might have a conniption fit if they get a spot of mud on their frock).
That's sexism.
Is the above sexism, now I wouldnd describe myself frail or delicate and my boyfriend doesn't put his coat over puddles, but he does carry heavy things for me and always open and hold a door for me, Im not embarrass to say it but I probably would have a conniption if I got mud on a gorgeous expensive frock.
2weeks ago we where both at a 40th Birthday, when it was over it was absolutely pouring rain outside, all I had on was a black lace dress and light jacket strappy heels, no hat nothing, boyfriend insisted on bringing car to the door from the carpark, he got soggy wet, but got an unbrella for me so as I didn't get wet, gosh when I think about it now he probably would have put his coat over the puddles so that my feet would stay dry, but he didn't lol he did open the car door and held it till I got in, such a relief to get in from the awful rain.
Anyway when we both got into the car I thank him, he kiss me and said ''your worth it sweetie'' that made me glow, yes I am worth it, Im a woman, he treats me like a lady, he spoils me, he's a real Gentleman, theres nothing sexist in that, just my 2cents.
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QuoteIt doesn't matter what 'scale' it is on; be it victim blaming after a rape or a man holding the door open because someone is a woman - it's still sexism. Trying to downplay a kind of sexism because you think it isn't as serious and because you think it 'erodes' the term is borderline misogyny.
I completely agree with you - only what sucks is that you completely mis-read my position, which means we're going to have to engage in the much loathed internet back&forth.
I didn't name those instances of sexism to imply that some forms of sexism are more critical than other forms. What I was trying to do was demonstrate what
was sexism and what
wasn't. In short, as far as door holding is concerned, I simply think that you're reading way too into it.
QuoteThe origin of door-holding is 'chivalry' (modern chivalry, not the knightly stuff). Chivalry expresses the idea that women are weak, frail, delicate and beautiful, while men are strong, robust, durable and handsome - therefore men, being the stronger, more robust of the sexes, should perform certain duties for women, since women are so frail and delicate that they couldn't possibly cope with such activities on their own (like carrying things for them, holding doors open for them and putting their coat over puddles, since women are so mentally fragile they might have a conniption fit if they get a spot of mud on their frock).
I come from the school of thought that if you're going to offer courtesy to someone, it wouldn't make any sense not to offer that same courtesy to someone else for any reason based on class, gender, race, or what have you. Having said that, no one who holds the door for anyone does so with the
personal intention to demonstrate any inherent weakness, or to imply that women are actually too weak to open doors on their own. I also don't think it makes any sense to judge folks by standards that were defined in the middle of the 5th century. Furthermore, I don't think simply
acknowledging the sexes equates to unequal treatment.
I've heard the chivalry bit coming out of feminists before. I appreciate feminists and their perspectives. However, it really sounds as if the real beef here is a stereotype that would suggest an assumption that woman directly equates to femininity. The characteristics you've outlined - fine and delicate - are all part of the very definition of femininity - But no one ever made the implication that these were somehow inherently negative. You seemed to make this implication by being offended that someone would treat you as something that had feminine characteristics.
By extension, if you were offended that someone would treat you as someone that had feminine characteristics, then it sounds like you would have a problem with femininity to begin with. Personally I love being treated delicately - because I'm under no illusion that being delicate in and of itself is inferiority to masculinity. The irony is that you tend to play to the stereotype that masculinity is superior to femininity by being offended when folks treat you and respond to you as something synonymous with feminine characteristics. All this in the pursuit to empower women.
Again, I'm not trying to offend - I'm just trying to understand. I would say that being offended when folks throw you what is ultimately a kind gesture is a dysfunctional way to respond to it. Folks who open the door for women are about as sexist as golf caddies are military men. [Look that up on your own time].
So holding the door open for someone equates benevolent sexism. I'm sorry vexing. I just can't say this with a straight face.
To summarize my perspective on the article, it goes on to suggest that typical feminine traits [nurturing helpful and warm] equate to lower social status and should not be reinforced. I think the only thing that's sexist here is A) the premise that those traits were inferior to begin with B) Those traits are only suited in the domestic arena and C) somehow it is implied that by having those traits you simply can't be independent or ambitious or have any masculine traits at the same time.
If it makes sense to you then that's fine, but you know what you could do to really empower women? You could refrain from passionately playing the victim role for one thing I think.
:police:
All right. Can we agree to disagree and let this go? You both are getting too personal. (See rule 15.)
:police:
- Kate
I didn't intend for this conversation to go sour. I thought it was fascinating while it lasted - I was trying to make a point but if I came off as insulting then I apologize. To keep things simple, maybe there is stuff about your position that I don't 'get' - and maybe you have insights into the subject that I simply don't have. I just thought your views were awfully strange to me.
Having said that, if what I said to you was so bad why do you think it's fair to question the validity of my femininity as you've done so in a PM you sent me solely on the basis that I hold opinions that you don't.
By the way, I respected you for being passionate about what you believe [which is more than what most folks can say] and I do see where you're coming from, but after all that, yeah, I don't like you either.
The end. Topic locked.
- Kate
PS: Reminder - report inappropriate PMs to the moderators.