I have a large Catholic family that I have been sort of estranged from for the past few years. My cousin is getting married this weekend and I have been under a lot of pressure from my parents to go. Part of me wants to go because I think it would be nice to my kids.
My sister told me I should dress like a girl because "the wedding's not about me". I cannot do that. I want to wear a nice suit and be myself. My family is on the verge of disowning me anyway, so maybe I should just go with it? The other option is to dress down a bit with something a bit more andro. I'm tortured over this because I don't want to ruin my cousin's wedding.
Edit: I don't mean to jump into your area, boys... I just dealt with this issue myself, so I thought I'd let you know my thoughts. :)
That's a really tough call.... On the one hand, you shouldn't have to present as something you're not. On the other hand, you *definitely* don't want to cause any drama at someone else's wedding. I guess the compromise to yourself is probably to go completely andro. Good luck... It is a hard situation.
If it were me, I'd go in men's clothing or not at all. For you though, you probably need to decide which option you'd regret the most, which you'd be the most okay with.
1) Go in drag (girl's clothes)
2) Go andro
3) Go as yourself (men's clothes)
4) Don't go
When you read that list, really listen to how your inner voice responds to each option. Which option does it scream "hell no!" and which option is your conscience quietly (or maybe not so quietly) trying to "convince" you to pick?
Mentally walk through how you'd feel about the result of choosing option 1, right through to any follow up and lasting effects. Do the same for option 2, 3, 4. Compare how you'd feel a month later, with each of the choices having hypothetically been made.
For you, not going may be the worst option that would make you feel the most uncomfortable. Going in drag may be the worst. Going as yourself and having to face your family's responses may be unbearable. Consider each honestly and patiently, and soon you should be able to figure out which option is really the best for you.
Hope you find a satisfactory option, good luck. :)
Seriously look at my photo. Can you see me in a dress? That would be pretty unconvincing drag. I could try to look andro but that would mean being conscious of and altering everything about myself... I don't think I can do that and make it look real anyway.
Meh.
I have a newish suit. I'm going to go have a good time as the man that I am.
If it were me. I would go in a suit. Or at least nice slacks, button up shirt and a tie. If THEY start drama then it's your turn to say 'It's not about me..it's about the bride and groom...why don't you focus on them instead of the choice I made in what I'm wearing. What I'm wearing isn't going to make it where they can't get married anymore, let it go and enjoy the damn wedding, hypocrite' But then...I'm a real blunt guy..
Its your cousin's wedding, ask her.
i barely know her.. and she's super religious. She would say no. I don't think I could ask that without making it an even bigger deal.
No. If they want to disown you, let them disown you. If they're gonna freak over you being trans, imo, they're not understanding enough to really call family. Wear a suit. Sure, it's your cousin's wedding. But you gotta do what makes you comfortable.
Quote from: DamienR on June 18, 2010, 01:49:01 PM
I have a newish suit. I'm going to go have a good time as the man that I am.
Sounds like a good choice, good on ya for not wanting to change who you are for someone else's comfort. :)
I went to a wedding last week, and I compromised. I wore a very andro shirt and pants. I felt (mostly) comfortable and it made everyone happy so the focus was on the bride and groom and not on me. Would I rather have been in a suit and tie like all the other guys? Of course. But sometimes we just have to compromise until we're full time passing as male when wearing a dress would take all the attention off the happy couple.
Why even think about going to an event when the people there wont even acknowledge that you exist regardless of what you decide to wear?
If it was me then I would not go, I would not include anyone in my life that don't see me as me :)
If I was in a situation where I "had" to go then I would go as me and "f%ck im" what they say! ;D
"I don't want to ruin my cousin's wedding"
No, only your cousin/family can do that, they are the ones with the problem and not you.
Quote from: DamienR on June 18, 2010, 01:31:59 PM
My sister told me I should dress like a girl because "the wedding's not about me".
If your family are the types who would make a spectacle of you for dressing like a guy then I can see where that might detract from the overall atmosphere of the wedding. However if they aren't, then the wedding not being "about you" is a perfect reason why NOT to be the only person at the wedding who's forced to wear clothes that make you feel humiliated.
Well if he's not out to his family, him showing up in a suit will most definitely cause a disruption. Does he want his cousin's wedding to be remembered as the his cousin's wedding or as the day everyone found out Damien was transgendered?
I'm with Devin on this one. If it were me I would go in nice slacks, a button-up shirt that doesn't scream either male or female (silk is a great choice) and no tie. But then, only you know your family and how much of a fuss it will make among them.
Don't go. It's not your day, it's the brides. If you want a day like that, be a girl, find a guy, have your own wedding. Really, didn't anyone learn basic manners?
I agree with those guys. Dress pants, button down shirt, loafers, and I'd skip the necktie. You would look hot. I bet you won't be the only guy wearing this type of outfit, lots don't wear suits to weddings.
I don't think you could pull off a dress either, it would make you look like someone who is really uncomfortable wearing a dress just to appease others. In other words, out of place. Too many other options out there.
A low waist-ed pair of slacks is common for women, so this choice may be androgynous whether its intentional or not. I don't particularly like the trend, but it's the trend nonetheless.
Quote from: tekla on June 18, 2010, 10:02:38 PM
Don't go. It's not your day, it's the brides. If you want a day like that, be a girl, find a guy, have your own wedding. Really, didn't anyone learn basic manners?
WTF?? I don't get what you're trying to say at all.
Quote from: DamienR on June 18, 2010, 11:47:40 PM
WTF?? I don't get what you're trying to say at all.
Basically, it's not your wedding(I don't mean that in a jerkish way.) It's taboo to out dress the bride, right? It'd probably be just as taboo dress as you are around someone who probably doesn't accept you the way you are. Andro dressing could work, but the least conflicting way to go about it would be to not go at all.
If you choose to dress in a suit and they react badly, it's on you. I'm not sure it'd be wise to rock the boat in this situation. That doesn't mean you should wear a dress, but one has to pick and choose their fights.
@Vexing - It's not cis-privilege at all. It's the same as if a gay man isn't encouraged to bring his partner (as is happening to a friend of mine) or a guest wants to turn up at a formal wedding wearing spiked multi-coloured hair, a ripped black dress held together with safety-pins and fencing wire, and shoes that play a tune when moved.
Wedding guests are just that - guests - and guests should have a certain respect for the people who invite them somewhere.
@DamienR, having said that, I think the smart casual menswear option sounds reasonable if you are comfortable with it. If all the options make you uncomfortable, best to stay at home IMHO.
Minniemouse, Damien isn't suggesting he turn up for the wedding in some sort of bizarre fancy dress, just an outfit which he feels appropriate to his gender identity.
Sorry, my remark was addressed to Vexing. I'll edit it to make the meaning clearer. It was the point about cis-privilege I was addressing. Apologies for the confusion.
I would go andro or not at all. You are "sort of estranged" from your family. You barely know the cousin. You don't want to ruin your cousin's wedding. I'm not sure why this would be nice to your kids.
I've been to a few weddings of large Catholic families. There is potential for a lot of drama, especially when part of the family isn't talking to another part of the family. If your family is not accepting of you being a man, your cousin's wedding is not the time to force the issue. JMHO
- Kate
I agree with James' suggestions, and my answers would depend on whether I was out or not to extended family members.
I would go as me, but might tone it down a bit, ie not suit and tie but slacks and a dress shirt. I should clarify that by saying if I were only recently out, maybe passing inconsistently, I would do that. Now that I'm 2 yrs on T, fully out, and sporting a beard, I would not shave or consider going andro at all. I'd go as me. And if all other men were wearing suits and ties, so would I.
That said, I did go to my BIL's wedding in black jeans, a sweater, and nice work boots (the sweater was feminine; I was not out at that time) when every one else F was in a dress and heels. It was a night wedding in the middle of an ice storm. I was being practical! (and avoiding a dress like the plague!!)
My sister shaved her head (severe buzz cut) right before my father's wedding and she was bride's maid.
I think most weddings have some sort of drama attached, no matter what.
Do what is right for you, even if it means staying home.
Jay
You know your family best but i'd wear a suit but then I have a family who really wouldn't care if a 'girl' wore a mans suit.
If attending the wedding came with a requirement to cross-dress, I would respectfully decline to attend.
I'd simply state; "I'm sorry, I can't do that." and leave it at that.
To be honest, I don't see the point of inviting extended family you don't know at all to a wedding anyways.. other than "more presents".
Thanks to everyone who gave their opinion, especially Turtle... thank you.
I went shopping last night and bought a nice pair of black pants, a short sleeved button up shirt and a tie. It's a summer wedding so I don't need to wear a jacket. When I was in the dressing room looking at myself in the outfit I had a wave of euphoria. I looked really really good to myself.
Not over the top, just me.
When I said I was estranged from them for the most part.. We actually used to be very close when we were children. When I came out as gay later on I was excommunicated from family for all but the most important functions, and even then I mostly chose not to go because of my own discomfort.
Because of this my kids have missed out on some fun things, like dancing with their daddy at a wedding, meeting other kids in the family, etc.
My sister said to me, regarding this wedding.. "Damien, if you accepted yourself more, other people would realize that they couldn't treat you as badly as they do." And it's true. I'm not asking for special privledge or to try to make a scene.. I am coming to try to make peace and trying to have confidence about it so that I can catch up with myself.
I'm really tired of hiding. If I know my family the wedding itself will be fine, it will be afterward when the dust has settled that the shaming will come.
I'm going, and I'm going as me.
Quote from: Miniar on June 19, 2010, 09:53:05 AM
To be honest, I don't see the point of inviting extended family you don't know at all to a wedding anyways.. other than "more presents".
I'm not sure how it is in Iceland (shorter distances may explain some of this), but here in the States, aside from nuclear family (parents + siblings) and aunts/uncles/grandparents, extended family aren't often a regular part of your life unless they live in the same town as you. (and if those live far away, you may not even know them very well.) Weddings, Funerals, and the occassional family reunion are about the only time you see these people. I know when the invites for my wedding were going out, there was a lot of pressure from my parents to invite the entire extended family. It's not just seen as "the happy couple's day"...it's also often seen as one of the few times extended family gets together. (And depending on the family...leaving out great-uncle-X can often have the result of hard feelings and some vicious family feuding.) We eventually ended up inviting a few more people than we wanted to, simply to avoid the drama that was sure to come.
= = = =
As for the OP:
Glad you're going as you Damien. Best of luck with your family.
Damien, your outfit sounds very tasteful. And I agree with your sister. If you dress nicely, go there and behave in a respectful manner, you'll be above reproach. It is how anyone ought to behave at this kind of function. If anyone hassles you, it's really their own bigotry in action.
I do have to say that I am absolutely with Vexing on this one.
If someone wants to invite ME to anything, wedding, funeral or whatever then they have to invite ME and not some fantasy that they hold as to what I might have been if I had been the person that they would have liked me to be.
I am the only me on offer. There simply never was and never will be a plan B.
I may, as a mark of respect, tone down my style or perhaps, as I have done with my muslim friends, adopt the style of dress appropriate for a woman in their culture, but I never have, and never will, deny my female core identity. End of!
And that is said by someone who voluntarily dresses quite andro or even masculine at times - the difference is when I do so I do it by MY choice, and not because someone else is using an invite to try to FORCE me to conform against me will.
Ps - I once went to a cousin's wedding where one of the guests, an old girlfriend of my father's, very pointedly refered to me as "IT" all day - that was fun! Didn't stop me from going as me though.
I think a lot of it depends upon whether you are out to your extended family or not. If you are at the point in which you have told them, I am now known as "X" and wish to be treated as (male/female), then by all means, if they invite you, they should expect you to show up as "X". However, somebody else's wedding is not the place to come out to extended family, especially without consulting the bride and groom.
have any of you guys ever been bashed? I almost was last night. hanging out with a friend at her party, never met her husband. He invited me out back to look at his car and bitch about his wife and he was super drunk. Long story short when he figured me out he freaked and I had to get the hell out of there fast. How long will it take for me to be comfortable in this situation? He pushed me and I didn't fight back, I ran.
Has anything like this ever happened to you guys?
Damien, that sucks, I'm sorry that happened to you bro. Hope the wedding goes ok though!
Vexing: That's disgusting. You're in Wellington then? Remind me not to go to San Fran bathhouse. I'm in Auckland.
And I can't believe some of the crap in this thread. Comparing it to someone telling a gay man not to bring his partner, as if that's ok? Totally not. I know weddings are YOUR DAY or whatever, but it's no excuse to tell someone not to be themselves. If they choose to draw attention to it and make a drama, that's their problem. Sorry not being very succinct right now uhhhghghg
An invite is not a mandate. You're always free to not go. I guess I'm lucky, as most weddings are on Saturday, and that's the most common day for me to work, so hundereds of dollars or a wedding, I always take the one that comes with me getting a check, not the one that requires a gift.
Quote from: elvistears on June 20, 2010, 06:35:50 PM
Damien, that sucks, I'm sorry that happened to you bro. Hope the wedding goes ok though!
Last night made me lose confidence in going to the wedding but I think I'm still gonna rock it. And about the fight thing.. I think I just need to work out more and build my confidence so I can take on dicks like that.
Quote from: tekla on June 18, 2010, 10:02:38 PM
Don't go. It's not your day, it's the brides. If you want a day like that, be a girl, find a guy, have your own wedding. Really, didn't anyone learn basic manners?
While I wouldn't have used this particular turn of phrase, Telka's point is valid. This is not an opportunity for you to revel in a personal odyssey; this is a woman on her wedding day, and she has invited someone to the wedding who does not exist. You may either deceive her by masquerading as the invited guest (a fictional female relative of hers) or you may take advantage of her error to turn her wedding day into a spectacle for your own purposes.
You are not the invited party; you have no business at the wedding. Within the bounds of civility and seemly respect, you may either speak to her directly and explain the situation, offering the opportunity to issue an invitation to you, or you may respectfully refuse the invitation.
- N
Quote from: DamienR on June 20, 2010, 10:38:46 AM
have any of you guys ever been bashed? I almost was last night. hanging out with a friend at her party, never met her husband. He invited me out back to look at his car and bitch about his wife and he was super drunk. Long story short when he figured me out he freaked and I had to get the hell out of there fast. How long will it take for me to be comfortable in this situation? He pushed me and I didn't fight back, I ran.
Has anything like this ever happened to you guys?
That sucks. I'm glad you got out unscathed.
Quote from: Nimetön on June 21, 2010, 02:34:54 AM
While I wouldn't have used this particular turn of phrase, Telka's point is valid. This is not an opportunity for you to revel in a personal odyssey; this is a woman on her wedding day, and she has invited someone to the wedding who does not exist. You may either deceive her by masquerading as the invited guest (a fictional female relative of hers) or you may take advantage of her error to turn her wedding day into a spectacle for your own purposes.
You are not the invited party; you have no business at the wedding. Within the bounds of civility and seemly respect, you may either speak to her directly and explain the situation, offering the opportunity to issue an invitation to you, or you may respectfully refuse the invitation.
- N
What the heck are you talking about? I was invited, and I am me, whether I am wearing female clothing or male clothing. My soul is the same. And I am part of the family. I already explained what I was wearing, which is in no way offensive. If I was a butch lesbian I might wear the same thing. Anyways, I'm me no matter what, and I doubt that in a crowd of 200 guests I am going to be too under the microscope.
I am with others in believing it should be up to the bride's opinion and, btw, if she has a bigoted opinion I don't think you should go anyway. If she knew about your sitch before inviting you, I think that means it's fine to go as yourself. If not, I would ask her for her thoughts before going.
I would not go dressed as a woman when you're a man though, unless you and the bride/groom are very close and it's super important to be there for you.
Definitely a gray enough area that whatever you decide is right :).
Quote from: DamienR on June 21, 2010, 09:54:45 AM
I doubt that in a crowd of 200 guests I am going to be too under the microscope.
lol! If only this were true!! How many weddings have I been to feeling that exact same way only to walk away knowing that this not the way that it is!! The thing is, this is probably the most important day of your cousins life. She'll get all the gossip, talk to every person (for a long time, well after the wedding), get all the details and probably will pay more attention to this day then any other she's ever had. Trust me, you will be noticed and scrutinized.
Btw, I think you're outfit is totally appropriate.
I think on her wedding day, the bride has more important things to worry about than what one person is wearing. Usually during a wedding, (or at least all the weddings I've attended) you can't keep your eyes off the bride and groom. If the guests can't keep their eyes off of Damien, that's their problem.
Quote from: LucienOctopus on June 21, 2010, 03:25:57 PM
I think on her wedding day, the bride has more important things to worry about than what one person is wearing.
So the last wedding I was invited to (200+), I decided to skip the ceremony and just go to the reception. I figured the same thing; how would they even know? Do you think the bride let it slide? Noooope. How the heck did she know I was wasn't at the ceremony?? It's a keen 'marriage day' sense or something, idk!!!
Edit: Doesn't anyone here watch Bridezilla? :P
Just thought of something. Have you considered calling or contacting your cousin and asking her what she might think about it? Explaining to her your dilemma?
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 21, 2010, 06:14:19 PM
IMO, Damien would look f**king stupid dressed at a woman and would cause more of a furor in a dress than a suit.
I agree. I think it would be ridiculous for them to demand that you wear a dress when you are clearly a man. The outfit you've described is far from distracting or inappropriate, so I say go for it.
On a side note, I've been to a few weddings in the last few years, and I didn't wear a dress to any of them. I'm not even out, but I hate dresses and everybody knows it. Nobody has had a problem with me wearing clothes similar to the ones you've described, so I really don't think it ought to cause any huge drama or detract from the bride's special day in any way.
Quote from: ƃuıxǝʌ on June 20, 2010, 04:44:18 AM
Which is bigotry and hetero privileged.
If said person always wears spiked/coloured hair, then asking them not to is a bit off - likewise if they always dress in a non-conventional way. Noisy shoes, however, are just irritating.
You might as well say "You shouldn't go to a wedding unless you are white. If you're black, you should whiten your skin and pretend to be white - otherwise don't come and be black."
I am not disagreeing with you on this one, although you seem to think I am. I'm not saying that it's right to expect someone to deny themselves in order to "be eligible" to attend some family occasion. My original point was that it's not something as specific as cis-privilege: it is the split between being the inviter and the invited at such occasions. To a greater or lesser degree, being a guest (i.e. accepting an invitation) imposes certain conditions. At a wedding, one of those conditions is generally that one plays second fiddle to the bride and groom - it's their day, after all.
Do I think my gay friend should be able to bring his partner to his cousin's wedding this year? Damn right I do. Do I think it was appropriate for a transman friend of mine (who presents as a woman but who would never wear a dress) to turn up at a formal wedding last year, impeccably turned out in three-piece pinstriped suit, cuff-links, tie-pin, slicked back hair, the works? You bet I do. The difference between the two occasions is that in the first, the whole family would probably have a fit of mass hysteria (he comes from a strongly Catholic country) and in the second, the bride and groom and their families were loving, non-bigoted people. (White bride, black groom, for the record.)
Personally, I think weddings are a huge waste of resources but if couples insist on them it behoves their guests to help make their day a good one. There's a time and a place for everything.
Quote from: minniemouse on June 21, 2010, 11:44:38 PM
There's a time and a place for everything.
Yeah. And it's the time and place for me to be myself. I'm not calling and asking if I can wear a button up shirt and a pair of black pants.. that would be ridiculous. If you want to be in the closet with your family go ahead but I'm not living in one anymore, and I think making a big deal about it with a simpering "Can I come to your wedding even though I'm not going to look like a girl?" phone call would be much much worse, not to mention slightly pathetic. I'm going as myself, and I'll let you guys know how it turns out. Wedding's Saturday.
Post Merge: June 22, 2010, 12:15:40 AM
By the way, it's not a "personal odyssey". It's how I live every single day of my life.
Quote from: blackMamba on June 18, 2010, 10:47:22 PM
I agree with those guys. Dress pants, button down shirt, loafers, and I'd skip the necktie. You would look hot. I bet you won't be the only guy wearing this type of outfit, lots don't wear suits to weddings.
Absolutlely agree, infact my own wedding in August I must take note of what typical guys are wearing, just go for pants and button down shirt, most people won't even notice, infact all attention will be on the blushing bride.
p
I do not see how Damian would be making a "spectacle" of himself, or how it would be a personal odyssey of his, either. Why is it that all of a sudden, a trans person dressing the way they do every day and identifying as the gender they identity with is wrong, unusual, and should be repressed? How is it an odyssey of any sort, if he's just being himself? He's not trying to draw attention to himself, or challenge people, he's merely going as himself, and what he's wearing sounds respectful and modest.
Also, completely against not allowing gay couples to go to weddings, either. That is not anymore acceptable than, as it was said, disallowing black people.
Quote from: V on June 23, 2010, 07:06:32 PM
I do not see how Damian would be making a "spectacle" of himself, or how it would be a personal odyssey of his, either. Why is it that all of a sudden, a trans person dressing the way they do every day and identifying as the gender they identity with is wrong, unusual, and should be repressed? How is it an odyssey of any sort, if he's just being himself? He's not trying to draw attention to himself, or challenge people, he's merely going as himself, and what he's wearing sounds respectful and modest.
Also, completely against not allowing gay couples to go to weddings, either. That is not anymore acceptable than, as it was said, disallowing black people.
I agree and was sort of surprised by how many people expressed transphobia in this thread. Fellow ->-bleeped-<-s telling me to hide in the closet? What the heck??
Hi Damien,
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Sorry, but I think it's a mischaracterization to call most of those comments transphobic.
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It wasn't particularly clear at the outset how 'out' you are exactly to the family. People were concerned that perhaps you either weren't out, or that you were only out as gay....with your family having no knowledge of you being trans...and it coming as a big surprise at the wedding.
A lack of knowledge of the situation can cause some misunderstandings.
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The concern was about showing respect to the people that invited you. About not distracting from their day with a big reveal that they and your other relatives would be blindsided by. I personally don't think you should go as anything but yourself. But if this was the first time they were all finding out about it...in deference to the marrying couple...overshadowing their happy day with your news would not be appropriate or polite to the courteous invitation they extended to you. (This is generally expected of any big news...not just being trans. Basic rule of thumb: Don't steal their thunder. It's considered very rude.)
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I have a similar situation coming up next year. I was invited to not only be at my cousin's wedding, but she wanted me to be the photographer for the event too. She doesn't know I'm trans. She doesn't know that I'm on hormones. A year from now, people are going to notice the changes...it can't be helped. I'll probably be out by then too. I made up an excuse as to why I couldn't do it for her, because it would have been very disruptive to her wedding. People should be focusing on the married couple...not rubbernecking at the photographer and whispering among themselves about something they find surprising/shocking. Even though I wanted to help her out, it would have been very rude of me to accept her request knowing what's coming next year. Showing up with a "Surprise! This is me. BTW how do you like my new dress? Let's take some pictures!" situation, would have been terribly inconsiderate of me.
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If I'm out by then, and I probably will be...and my cousin wants to invite the *real* me that she doesn't know yet...then I'll come to the wedding. Right now, she only invited the empty shell of a man that she knows. If I'm out...and I can't go as me though...then I won't go at all. It's her day...her invitation...her decision on who comes and who doesn't. It's her party, and as the hostess...regardless of whether I like or agree with her decision...she deserves at least that much respect.
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Someday I won't have to make fake excuses. Someday, I'll be able to be myself 24/7, and people will know me for me, and invite the woman they expect to come. Someday showing up in a dress won't be shocking to my relatives. Yes, I deserve to be shown respect for who I am. But respect is a two way street. And next year, I will have to respect her decision, just as she will have to knowingly respect who I am if she wants me there.
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Honestly, it sounds like it shouldn't be much of an issue for you at the wedding anyway. Even if you weren't completely out as a man, and were only out to your relatives as a 'butch lesbian', going in a suit isn't much of a stretch in the realm of acceptability. (Heck, my coworker wore a suit to her own wedding.) Me going in a dress if people thought I was gay would be another matter completely though. ;) As long as respect and consideration is being shown both ways, there shouldn't be a problem.
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Anyway, I hope you enjoy the wedding,
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Kay