Ladies, can you please share what it means to you to be a woman? How do you define your womanhood and femininity?
It's the tendency to see oneself reflected in other women. It's a sense of identification similar to what one feels with one's family. It's the same kind of instinctual identification that links us all together as humans, the immediate, very nearly instinctual, very deeply implanted ability to recognize any other human as "one of us," but it's just the next layer on top of that.
For me your question is akin to asking "why is water wet".
I just know. I look at males and I look at females and I can come to no other conclusion, I am definatly female.
Quote from: cynthialee on July 12, 2010, 08:11:40 PM
For me your question is akin to asking "why is water wet".
I just know. I look at males and I look at females and I can come to no other conclusion, I am definatly female.
I think I'm asking you to describe the water, which I think is no easy task. Tonight I asked my brother what it means to be a man, and he was with a loss of words and said something like "men are just men." Then he added that being a man means treating a lady nice - that gave me a warm fuzzy.
Hard to describe. For me, it is just a sense of who I am. Doesn't take makeup; doesn't take slinky clothes. Doesn't even take putting on hair. Whenever I look in the mirror, soak in the tub, snuggle with my husband, all if feel is right.
Robyn
10 years postop
for me, it means just feeling right finally. That was something missing all those years. Now it feels complete.
Not sure how to put it in words, but the other night, I was at a Rihanna concert with my bestie and we were dancing so hard and having a blast and during one of the video intermissions we settled down for a minute and the biggest smile came across my face. I was having so much fun that I'd lost all inhibitions that I have trying not to look to girly or w/e and I was just happy and I finally felt like a girl. Even though I'm pre hrt and pre op and everything. I just felt like me. It was amazing.
Oh yes that was one of those questions beloved of 1970's gender shrinks back in the day when the current trend amongst trans folks was describe ourselves as a woman trapped in a mans body and all that kind of bull!
Inevitably they would then ask the hapless patient what they thought it felt like to be a woman? And then, if you were foolish enough to attempt an answer, they would have you trapped because thereafter they could waste endless sessions getting you to evaluate and rethink every one of your responses oft times choosing a natal female who did not appear to fit with your model.
That is why pre-operatively I deliberately never justified my need to change in terms of my personality, but instead stressed the dysphoric fact that I found the physical sexual characteristics of my body disturbing. I'm sure the likes of Lawrence and Blanchard would have had me pegged as an autogynophile, but to my mind that just shows how shallow and rubbish their thinking really was.
My point is that I cant know how it feels to be anyone by myself, so I have no valid yardstick or means of comparison. All I can say is that I like my body better the way it is now, and I like the way that other around me treat me better now. I feel there is less of a mismatch between their expectations of me and what I feel able to deliver as a person.
I feel like a don't really know for sure what it means to be either a man or a woman. I've found that many of my emotions and thoughts are shared with some of the women I know, yet I've never had an overwhelming desire to dress like a woman or to cut off my male genitalia. Yet, given the opportunity, I think I would dress more feminine (something I was not allowed to do as a child). I was always told, boys don't wear that or boys don't do that. I recall playing with play dishes and a doll house when I was very young - I assume that is rare for little boys, but who knows. I was a first born child in a military family, you can get the idea of the strict environment.
I don't have any attachment to my male genitalia, in fact, I am developing some aversion to it. I don't want to get into the sexual orientation discussion again (don't want to keep getting scolded), but if not for sex, I personally don't have a need for any particular genitalia. I feel like who I am is inside.
My desire to have women parts is not so much just for me, but how I want to relate to men. Without getting graphic outside of the sexuality forum, I want to be cherished by a man and to please and give myself over to him, which I think is a more feminine feeling. My brother told me that he feels somewhat aggressive during sex, and I feel the opposite, though of course it varies.
If I was never going to have sex again, I think I would just prefer to have no genitalia. Yet, just recently after seriously considering the possibility of SRS and talking with you good folks in this forum, I have felt a sense of inner peace and less anxiety.
I suppose the only way to better understand womanhood is to live as a woman for a while, but I don't have the opportunity to do that now - nor the nerves.
Still, asking other women about their womanly feelings has helped me, though I find it is a difficult thing to describe.
Now that I am full time and soon to be complete it simply means I feel happy and right. I feels quite natural and many times I forget my birth sex.
Pam
Womanhood is conforming to one of two socially acceptable gender roles. It's 100% superficial and is only experienced through the expectations of others. It's existence depends on the exclusion of men and vise versa.
I am a human being before I am a woman and live as a woman because there really is no alternative as far as presentation goes. Do I feel like a woman? No. Do I indentify with women? Not anymore than I do with individuals.
I know I am a woman because I've lived as a man and as a woman. I always had to work at being a man. It was like I was playing a game whose rules I didn't understand. I don't have to try to be a woman – I just am. For the first time in my life I can relax and just be myself.
I had thought that this was mostly a social construct, but I've found for myself that it is far more. For me it includes my presentation and how people interact with me, but that is only the tip of the iceberg. I feel a deep sense of relief that my body matches my soul. It isn't for sex or for any other reason than this core comfort of being whole at last - congruent within myself.
Early on, when I mentioned to my daughter that I didn't know exactly what it was to be a woman, she said that Simone de Beauvoir wrote over 500 pages trying to explain it and never came to any real conclusions so don't worry about it.
- Kate
Quote from: K8 on July 13, 2010, 07:19:37 PM
I know I am a woman because I've lived as a man and as a woman. I always had to work at being a man. It was like I was playing a game whose rules I didn't understand. I don't have to try to be a woman – I just am. For the first time in my life I can relax and just be myself.
Kate, now that you say this it does seem like I've had to work hard at being a man too . . . don't be so shy, speak louder, don't be such a sissy, be more assertive, don't be so sensitive, toughen up boy! Goodness.
Maybe I can get the courage to be myself and see where it takes me. I thought I was doing that when I came out as gay, but I think I started conforming to another set of expectations.
Having lived as a "male" for so many years, I can definitely say without a doubt that it is NOT what I myself am. I always felt uncomfortable, I never knew how to stand, sit, talk, act or react. I always felt like I was trying too hard to be a "man" and it just didn't feel right.
I always had more female friends than male friends. Around women I could relax and be myself. Women empathize more than men do. It was ok for me to be sensitive or emotional around them. I wasn't thought weak, I wasn't belittled, I wasn't put down or rejected.
For me, being a woman is just what feels right for me. It's where I'm most comfortable. I'm no longer acting; I don't have to try to be a woman like I did when being a man. I just relax now and do what I do naturally without much thought. Friends of mine tell me they don't see a man when they see me, even if I am dressed as a man. I take that as a compliment. They see me for who I am, regardless of clothing or body shape.
Being a woman is just something I know, feel, and believe. I can't prove it or describe it, it simply is.
Quote from: rejennyrated on July 13, 2010, 06:44:36 AMThat is why pre-operatively I deliberately never justified my need to change in terms of my personality, but instead stressed the dysphoric fact that I found the physical sexual characteristics of my body disturbing. I'm sure the likes of Lawrence and Blanchard would have had me pegged as an autogynophile, but to my mind that just shows how shallow and rubbish their thinking really was.
Damn jenny I wish everyone could have a slice of your wisdom.
I've been really trying to explain this to them that physically begin a guy is painful to me makes up about 80%+ of the discomfort. But they don't get it otherwise tolorent family rag on me for begin "insincere" about my emotions because I've not done alot of my social transition and I don't prance around in a dress and I try to explain to them it's hard when you have facial hair!
To me, being a woman is being the superior sex, biologically. You live longer, you are less irrational, you manage emotions much better over the long-term, and you are generally less likely to snap and murder a bunch of people.
Being a woman, to me, means having a great deal of responsibility and power. It means having strength and self-assurance, and fighting doubt. It means solidarity with other women. It means a lot to me.
Okay, sorry.
To me, being a woman is being the superior sex, biologically. You live longer, you are less irrational, you manage emotions much better over the long-term, and you are generally less likely to snap and murder a bunch of people. Being a woman means being the master race, really.
Really, you know who else used notions like 'master race?' And, of course, being female isn't even a race, but why let facts get in the way of fantasy eh?
As pure WARBLGARBLE goes it's pretty good. Wrong, but funny as hell.
generally less likely to snap and murder a bunch of people
As Camille Paglia once noted: "There is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the Ripper." So, it's a two edged blade for sure.
Quote from: Omika on July 15, 2010, 11:18:08 AM
Okay, sorry.
Just keep in mind many of us have men (and androgynes who identify partialy male) in our lives we love fiercly.
Quote from: tekla on July 15, 2010, 11:23:30 AM
To me, being a woman is being the superior sex, biologically. You live longer, you are less irrational, you manage emotions much better over the long-term, and you are generally less likely to snap and murder a bunch of people. Being a woman means being the master race, really.
Really, you know who else used notions like 'master race?' And, of course, being female isn't even a race, but why let facts get in the way of fantasy eh?
As pure WARBLGARBLE goes it's pretty good. Wrong, but funny as hell.
generally less likely to snap and murder a bunch of people
As Camille Paglia once noted: "There is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the Ripper." So, it's a two edged blade for sure.
I'm pretty sure there is no female Mozart because historically women have been kept as little more than domestic animals (that can talk and make babies!) in most societies, so comparatively, we've had a lot less time to churn out any notable talented figures. That and history itself was recorded by the patriarchy, so who even knows?
The "master race" comment was definitely pure WARBLEGARBLE. Not meant to be taken seriously! I should use more emoticons...
Quote from: cynthialee on July 15, 2010, 11:30:00 AM
Just keep in mind many of us have men (and androgynes who identify partialy male) in our lives we love fiercly.
So do I!
We women are better, we just can't prove it because men kept us down. So, where is that superiority? I mean if a bunch of stupid guys managed to do that to all the women and still have time left over to invent ESPN, where exactly does that superiority come into play?
Quote from: tekla on July 15, 2010, 11:51:55 AM
We women are better, we just can't prove it because men kept us down. So, where is that superiority? I mean if a bunch of stupid guys managed to do that to all the women and still have time left over to invent ESPN, where exactly does that superiority come into play?
It's a combination of exploiting fear and basic instincts, in addition to the world at large, for a very long time, being an extremely hostile place. With eyes on the future, we're looking at a coming age where the increased complexity of society, and the very real, very severe existential risk posed to humanity by the existence of WMDs and modern technology, is going to need a "woman's touch". That is to say, if we go on building societies around posturing, dick-measuring, male dominance/delusion/ego, then the human race has the life expectancy of about another half-century.
If feminine thinking (note, that isn't just women, that is what is characterized as "girly" thinking) starts to become more pervasive, we have a better chance at maintaining peace and stability as a race. The answer is empathy, sharing of feelings and emotions, being able to truly feel and understand one another, things femininity and feminine thought strive towards.
Traditional male behavior is toxic to the world at this point. It has a lot less to do with men and women than it does with male and female modes of thought.
Edit: Note to the OP, that is what femininity is to me! :D
Sigh. This makes me unpopular among some of my friends, but I hate sexism just as much when it's complimentary to women. Especially when the "compliments" consist of taking the same old tired stereotypes that have been used against women for millenia, turning them around, and saying "No, it's a good thing that women are weak/soft/emotional/etc etc etc".
Quote from: Omika on July 15, 2010, 12:13:37 PM
It's a combination of exploiting fear and basic instincts, in addition to the world at large, for a very long time, being an extremely hostile place. With eyes on the future, we're looking at a coming age where the increased complexity of society, and the very real, very severe existential risk posed to humanity by the existence of WMDs and modern technology, is going to need a "woman's touch". That is to say, if we go on building societies around posturing, dick-measuring, male dominance/delusion/ego, then the human race has the life expectancy of about another half-century.
If feminine thinking (note, that isn't just women, that is what is characterized as "girly" thinking) starts to become more pervasive, we have a better chance at maintaining peace and stability as a race. The answer is empathy, sharing of feelings and emotions, being able to truly feel and understand one another, things femininity and feminine thought strive towards.
Traditional male behavior is toxic to the world at this point. It has a lot less to do with men and women than it does with male and female modes of thought.
Edit: Note to the OP, that is what femininity is to me! :D
I think this is a pretty good summary. I'd like to add that this empathic "feminine" approach to the world's problems is the biggest threat to masculinity because it means less power, violence, and dominance. In a civilized society people have equal representation regardless of their size, lineage , or sex. That is why as women throughout the world are gaining a voice, there are crazies who want to go back to a time when it was easier to control and dominate others rather than meeting the demands that result from having rights.
As Omika stated, this is all femininity and masculinity thought processes and in my opinion has nothing to do with sex. I don't think the world can advance with old-fashioned destructive thought processes typical of "masculinity". There should be a combination of the positive masculine and feminine traits. Assertiveness without violence, confidence with respect, consideration without passivity, adaptivity without submissiveness, independence while being a team player.
Quote from: kyril on July 15, 2010, 01:16:16 PM
Sigh. This makes me unpopular among some of my friends, but I hate sexism just as much when it's complimentary to women. Especially when the "compliments" consist of taking the same old tired stereotypes that have been used against women for millenia, turning them around, and saying "No, it's a good thing that women are weak/soft/emotional/etc etc etc".
*claps* ^.^
I'm not sure that this is a male/female argument as much as a tribal/global argument. And if so, then it is getting off track.
- Kate
It's apples and oranges, Mars and Venus. Feminine energy is very different than its male counterpart. We are the chalice, the vessel, the receptive yin principle representing passive strength, like the flowing waters that wear down the great mountain, or the patient and steadfast root that grows through and breaks the solid rock. We are the graceful willow that bends with the wind and so outlasts the storm, while the stolid (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stolid) and stoic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stoic) oak lies broken on the ground. If men are the swords, women are the sheaths that cover and contain them. Everything about being a woman is different. I don't have to resort to traditional male behaviors to prove I'm strong or capable. In softness (like water) I am stronger than mountains, and in my cry baby heart lies the intuition that unfailingly guides me along the paths I should walk. Viewing as weakness a woman's softness and greater capacity for emotion is a fool's mistake.
edited to add: I don't believe women or men are cookie cutter cut-outs. What a woman is, is me. The things I do are the things women do because I'm a woman and I do them. We are all simply ourselves, not stereotypes.
Very beautiful and well put, Fairygirl. I like the image of the receptive chalice.
Quote from: Robertina on July 16, 2010, 11:31:16 AM
Very beautiful and well put, Fairygirl. I like the image of the receptive chalice.
Ditto. You're a lovely poet as well as artist, Chloe.
I like the image of the receptive chalice.
It's not exactly her novel idea, matter of fact its the basis for The Da Vinci Code, which is almost as great a bit of plagiarism as the early books of the Bible are from the Babylonian text of Gilgamesh .
But, if you find that fascinating - and many do - read the original (particularly the first half, which is beyond brilliant):
The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future by Riane Tennenhaus Eisler
Always try to find the real thoughts, not the pale replica.
Yes woman as the chalice is an ancient idea. My imagery is inspired from my reading of the Tao Te Ching, which aspects apply well to the idea of strength in softness. What it means to be a woman is to simply be one.
Beautiful poem Fairy Girl. :)
I think our western society could learn a thing or two about balance from Taoism.
I don't want to breach any rule (if I am, please delete mods) but the chalice imagery also brings to mind the time when in church, the priest raises the chalice above his head in adoration, then places it on the altar and genuflects, kissing the altar. I'm not a church goer anymore, but I am still a bit attracted to some of the ritual (even if I read non-patriarchal things into it).
Quote from: kyril on July 15, 2010, 01:16:16 PM
Sigh. This makes me unpopular among some of my friends, but I hate sexism just as much when it's complimentary to women. Especially when the "compliments" consist of taking the same old tired stereotypes that have been used against women for millenia, turning them around, and saying "No, it's a good thing that women are weak/soft/emotional/etc etc etc".
Thank you!
Quote from: FairyGirl on July 17, 2010, 07:14:27 AM
Yes woman as the chalice is an ancient idea. My imagery is inspired from my reading of the Tao Te Ching, which aspects apply well to the idea of strength in softness. What it means to be a woman is to simply be one.
I couldn't agree more. Even from an androgyne point of view. Wish I could have understood that more when I was younger. Strength in softness, to simply be.
Isn't it nice that the image of the chalice is strong enough on it's own regardless of where it came from?
Quote from: kyril on July 15, 2010, 01:16:16 PM
Sigh. This makes me unpopular among some of my friends, but I hate sexism just as much when it's complimentary to women. Especially when the "compliments" consist of taking the same old tired stereotypes that have been used against women for millenia, turning them around, and saying "No, it's a good thing that women are weak/soft/emotional/etc etc etc".
Amen to that!
--
Kat, so if I hated "The DaVinci Code," will I simply loathe "The Chalice and the Blade"? ;)
Oh no, completely different stuff, you'll really like the first 1/3-1/2 of C&B which is all about the feminine centered nature of pre-Christian societies around the world, the 'future' part, that's more a matter of taste.
For me it simply means feeling "right" and not having to pretend, as I did as a man.. I'm still pre-everything and yet I feel more and more "right" as the days go by..
Pre-
Christian? Do you mean that in the sense of conquistadores -- i.e., pre-colonial? Otherwise, wouldn't you have to go back further? If my smattering of recollections from high school world history serves me, I thought patriarchy was pretty well entrenched in Western civilization by the time Jesus got around to being born -- certainly in Greek, Roman, and Hebrew culture, and even (I thought) in ancient Egyptian and early Mesopotamian civilizations.
Elsewhere, that's a different story, though I patriarchy was pretty well established in China by the Han dynasty, too, as reflected in Confucianism -- or did Confucianism become more patriarchal with time?
(I don't mean to hijack -- I think this is relevant to the OP because it's about how our current notions of "what it means" came to be.)
I'm not sure about this chalice-and-blade business in general. I was being flippant about Dan Brown (my problem was mainly with the repetitive structure of his book -- cliff-hanger / narrow escape / not-so-shocking revelation, repeated ad nauseam), but I do tend to get a bit touchy about traditional gender constructions. Since I defy gender conventions for a living, since I work with a lot of men who don't even seem to notice what an exclusively male culture my work environment can be, and after seeing so many women get turned away from my field by various social pressures, I tend to hear statements of traditional gender roles as something of a threat.
I guess what's bothering me is this:
Quote from: FairyGirl on July 16, 2010, 06:27:14 AMI don't have to resort to traditional male behaviors to prove I'm strong or capable.
I agree -- neither do I. But there's something important missing for me: I don't have to
avoid traditional male behaviors to prove I'm a woman. If I did, couldn't call myself my mother's daughter. When I do traditionally male things, I'm usually just following in her footsteps.
Hi.
To be a female & a woman is some what different than some think . you can be a female or born one . you grow in to a woman just one major detail i see missing here ,
tho no mention of having your womb . that to me is a very important part of being a real woman i am not because i can not have & give birth to my child.
Does every woman have that very hard wired detail going on inside of them . no of cause not yet most do & a time clock goes with that there is a time before, being ready a time to have or give birth. & a time when that is over .
That says more to me as a person first & then as a woman proper .
Im wired with that or was . yet still have my other side not as a true male just some of my wireing so i come with both sets of being both male & female / woman .
do i live in a fantisy land thinking im a female / woman & my body says different or did .
for some yes & im tolarated, im not a girle girl ,
yet my friends wont fully understand of cause they have accepted who i am, why i am & have accepted my self as a woman with a male background thats the best part ,being accepted .
For my self i know what i am who i am . just not why i am. & that does not matter .
So can i say with out a dought im a woman , yes, with the proviso of, some parts missing ,or not complete ,
One detail for my self is i can express my self in a way that is becoming of a woman or leading up to, & that has allways been there.
...noeleena...
I really don't think one gender is better than the other; they are just very different and society needs both. I knew I was very different when I was young because "normal boys" don't like wearing their mothers underwear or putting on their makeup. Even when I was caught and scolded I cound not stop the feelings even though I supressed them until I was older. Now that I am living as a woman, full of estrogen and my T is supressed I feel right and can be feminine all the time outwardly rather than feeling feminine inside and living outwardly as a man. I love all things feminine and think and act like a woman. I can wear skirts and get my hair and nails done, shop for clothes, shoes and purses; things I longed to do but could not do as a male. Being a woman is very normal for me so I guess it means freedom. I can't wait to have SRS so I can stand in front of a mirror and see the vagina that should have been there all along.
Pam
Quote from: Robertina on July 12, 2010, 06:51:19 PM
Ladies, can you please share what it means to you to be a woman? How do you define your womanhood and femininity?
I think everyone will give you a different answer to what a woman is. There are many different people and they all are unique and shaped by their lives.
For me a woman is grace, compassion, mystery, beauty, gentleness, seductiveness, love, and wisdom. The more i see myself as a mom the more I feel complete as a woman. To my man i give love, compassion, gentleness and devotion, along with a good helping of mystery and seductiveness (wink). When you think of your mom taking care of you when your sick, smiling when you show her you can tie your shoes on your own, and reading you a bed time story, that is my idea of a woman. Someone who is strong on the inside but has a gentleness to the soul. Someone not afraid to show her emotions, and the strength to stand by convictions.
Your question is easy to answer because well all know what it feels to be a woman, difficult to explain since the words escape us, and they are different for everyone else. The best way to put it is, when i a lie in bed with my man's arms around me, i can hear his heart beat as he whispers how much he loves me, and that being with me like this is the only thing wants for the rest of his life. I cant help but be moved as he kisses me on the forehead goodnight, while i am in his arms. At the moment i feel a complete woman, he is raw power, and i am the gentleness and wisdom, that tempers his strength and gives him peace.
Quote from: Izumi on July 23, 2010, 12:39:25 PM
I think everyone will give you a different answer to what a woman is. There are many different people and they all are unique and shaped by their lives.
For me a woman is grace, compassion, mystery, beauty, gentleness, seductiveness, love, and wisdom. The more i see myself as a mom the more I feel complete as a woman. To my man i give love, compassion, gentleness and devotion, along with a good helping of mystery and seductiveness (wink). When you think of your mom taking care of you when your sick, smiling when you show her you can tie your shoes on your own, and reading you a bed time story, that is my idea of a woman. Someone who is strong on the inside but has a gentleness to the soul. Someone not afraid to show her emotions, and the strength to stand by convictions.
Your question is easy to answer because well all know what it feels to be a woman, difficult to explain since the words escape us, and they are different for everyone else. The best way to put it is, when i a lie in bed with my man's arms around me, i can hear his heart beat as he whispers how much he loves me, and that being with me like this is the only thing wants for the rest of his life. I cant help but be moved as he kisses me on the forehead goodnight, while i am in his arms. At the moment i feel a complete woman, he is raw power, and i am the gentleness and wisdom, that tempers his strength and gives him peace.
Lucky guy. I want a woman like that!
Quote from: Nero on July 23, 2010, 01:30:52 PM
Lucky guy. I want a woman like that!
His friends dont know I am TS, neither does his family, he doesnt plan on telling them. Everyone thinks he hit the woman jackpot, I cook for him (because i enjoy it, to make sure he is eating properly, weight loss, and i like his compliments about my cooking), i do his laundry and my own, and i always say how much i love and appreciate him, because i do. He works in construction, hard back breaking work, I make sure when he comes home he gets a chance to rest, after all he gives me all his money so i can get my SRS faster and we can get married, but i wont stop pampering him after ^_^. On top of that i like guy stuff like video games, anime/manga, airsoft, surfing, working out, and football. Our personalities match too, which is the icing on the cake. He thinks hes lucky to have me, i think the same of him.... funny how things change when only 2 years ago i just wanted to die, now i love ever single day of my life even when it gets difficult.
On a side note, hes also easy to train, like a puppy, i recently got him to take the stuff out of his pockets before i do laundry. I did it the sneaky woman way too and didnt nag him to death about it... ooooo such power.... wahahahahhahahaa
Quote from: Izumi on July 23, 2010, 12:39:25 PM
Your question is easy to answer because well all know what it feels to be a woman, difficult to explain since the words escape us, and they are different for everyone else. The best way to put it is, when i a lie in bed with my man's arms around me, i can hear his heart beat as he whispers how much he loves me, and that being with me like this is the only thing wants for the rest of his life. I cant help but be moved as he kisses me on the forehead goodnight, while i am in his arms. At the moment i feel a complete woman, he is raw power, and i am the gentleness and wisdom, that tempers his strength and gives him peace.
This what finally gave me the strength to accept that I am a woman.
Quote from: Robertina on July 12, 2010, 06:51:19 PM
Ladies, can you please share what it means to you to be a woman? How do you define your womanhood and femininity?
Uh, shoes!! DUH!
Seriously. And whatever Izumi said.
Quote from: pamshaw on July 23, 2010, 11:29:13 AM
I knew I was very different when I was young because "normal boys" don't like wearing their mothers underwear or putting on their makeup. Even when I was caught and scolded I cound not stop the feelings even though I supressed them until I was older. Now that I am living as a woman, full of estrogen and my T is supressed I feel right and can be feminine all the time outwardly rather than feeling feminine inside and living outwardly as a man. I love all things feminine and think and act like a woman. I can wear skirts and get my hair and nails done, shop for clothes, shoes and purses; things I longed to do but could not do as a male. Being a woman is very normal for me so I guess it means freedom.
Pam
I can relate to all that, being feminine is freedom, just doing all them womanly things.
Quote from: Izumi on July 23, 2010, 01:54:49 PM
His friends dont know I am TS, neither does his family, he doesnt plan on telling them. Everyone thinks he hit the woman jackpot, I cook for him (because i enjoy it, to make sure he is eating properly, weight loss, and i like his compliments about my cooking), i do his laundry and my own, and i always say how much i love and appreciate him, because i do. He works in construction, hard back breaking work, I make sure when he comes home he gets a chance to rest, after all he gives me all his money so i can get my SRS faster and we can get married, but i wont stop pampering him after ^_^. On top of that i like guy stuff like video games, anime/manga, airsoft, surfing, working out, and football. Our personalities match too, which is the icing on the cake. He thinks hes lucky to have me, i think the same of him.... funny how things change when only 2 years ago i just wanted to die, now i love ever single day of my life even when it gets difficult.
On a side note, hes also easy to train, like a puppy, i recently got him to take the stuff out of his pockets before i do laundry. I did it the sneaky woman way too and didnt nag him to death about it... ooooo such power.... wahahahahhahahaa
My relationship with my Fiancé is very similar, my Boyfriend works in IT, I now only work 3days a week, we probably won't adopt, but Id love to be a fulltime Mom, he wants me to give up work completely sometime after when we get married, I don't mind being a fulltime Wife, I do all the cooking and laundry but he looks after me well, everybody thinks Iv hit the guy jackpot, weather was very bad today, my car was in the garage, I had a hair appointment, he dropped me off at the hair salon, then when I was done, I was getting my hair highlights, he collected me from the stylists, all because he knew I just didn't want to have a bad hair day, then he tells me I look a million dollars, I feel feminine, it means so much to me, just being a Woman, I love being a Woman.
p
Quote from: Lori on July 23, 2010, 05:54:59 PM
Uh, shoes!! DUH!
Seriously. And whatever Izumi said.
I have to agree shoes... I did not know the importance of shoes till i transitioned... now i cant seem to have enough... soon you will know the bliss and horror of shoes...
On a side note, somedays something might happen to get me turned on, unlike when your full to testosterone the turned on feeling doesnt last all day, you think about it a little, then you think about shoes, and it goes away.... Its neat, being able to think clearly.
Post Merge: July 23, 2010, 07:28:48 PM
Quote from: pretty pauline on July 23, 2010, 06:05:22 PM
I can relate to all that, being feminine is freedom, just doing all them womanly things.My relationship with my Fiancé is very similar, my Boyfriend works in IT, I now only work 3days a week, we probably won't adopt, but Id love to be a fulltime Mom, he wants me to give up work completely sometime after when we get married, I don't mind being a fulltime Wife, I do all the cooking and laundry but he looks after me well, everybody thinks Iv hit the guy jackpot, weather was very bad today, my car was in the garage, I had a hair appointment, he dropped me off at the hair salon, then when I was done, I was getting my hair highlights, he collected me from the stylists, all because he knew I just didn't want to have a bad hair day, then he tells me I look a million dollars, I feel feminine, it means so much to me, just being a Woman, I love being a Woman.
p
Thats the thing about guys, they see us completely different then how we see us... we look in the mirror and see all the stuff that is wrong with us, all the stuff we need to fix, but they look at us and they just see all the good. A normal man in love with you would take a bullet to protect you, how can you not love something like that. All you have to do is show them love, and they will go out of their way to make you happy and impress you... Its so simple but so precious...
I had what i thought was a bad hair day, my fiance looked at me put his hand on my cheek and said. "If only you could see what I see, you would never worry about your looks again....". He is by no means an eloquent guy, hes a construction worker, about as endearing as he get is, Hey Babe, take a look at this or that, but sometimes he can really pull the heartstrings... It is good being a woman...
See at times like that you FEEL completely a woman, but their is no words in the English language to describe what you are feeling its beyond words... its beyond comprehension, you only know that your transition was the right choice, or you would have never known this feeling, to know your place in the universe the place you belong.
Quote from: pretty pauline on July 23, 2010, 06:05:22 PM
I can relate to all that, being feminine is freedom, just doing all them womanly things.My relationship with my Fiancé is very similar, my Boyfriend works in IT, I now only work 3days a week, we probably won't adopt, but Id love to be a fulltime Mom, he wants me to give up work completely sometime after when we get married, I don't mind being a fulltime Wife, I do all the cooking and laundry but he looks after me well, everybody thinks Iv hit the guy jackpot, weather was very bad today, my car was in the garage, I had a hair appointment, he dropped me off at the hair salon, then when I was done, I was getting my hair highlights, he collected me from the stylists, all because he knew I just didn't want to have a bad hair day, then he tells me I look a million dollars, I feel feminine, it means so much to me, just being a Woman, I love being a Woman.
p
Since when does being a woman mean finding the man who treats you like a woman from a time period when women didn't have rights? Being a wife isn't a career, you can't just get married and expect a man to take care of you as if you were a child in exchange for some housework and laundry.
Quote from: uni on July 23, 2010, 10:04:54 PM
Since when does being a woman mean finding the man who treats you like a woman from a time period when women didn't have rights? Being a wife isn't a career, you can't just get married and expect a man to take care of you as if you were a child in exchange for some housework and laundry.
Never, as far as I'm aware.. However, and here's a surprise, not all women want the same things.. Do I want to be a housewife? No, not really, but for the right man, sure.. As long as we were both happy, who cares?
Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 20, 2010, 06:14:15 PM
I guess what's bothering me is this:
QuoteI don't have to resort to traditional male behaviors to prove I'm strong or capable.
I agree -- neither do I. But there's something important missing for me: I don't have to avoid traditional male behaviors to prove I'm a woman. If I did, couldn't call myself my mother's daughter. When I do traditionally male things, I'm usually just following in her footsteps.
lol Alyssa hon I think maybe you're reading more into it than I intended. I wasn't advocating in any way avoiding traditional male behaviors, only that a women need not feel it necessary to engage in them in order to prove herself equal. Sorry if that wasn't clear, I wasn't thinking that deep lol
I think whatever argument in this thread has sprung from some people talking about what it is to be feminine, while others are talking about what it is to be female. To be feminine is to match the social conventions that have been ascribed to women, while to be female is, if you are a women, to simply just be, conforming to social protocols or not.
In fairness, if the question is "what does it mean to be a women" then both aspects fit in answering it, even if they can be at odds.
I think this is an interesting discussion, regardless, because you can have so many right answers to this question and especially since each answer is completely personal, everybody's answer fundamentally reveals something about themselves.
PS I liked your poem too, Chloe!
Oh, Chloe, you're fine. It just took me awhile to figure out why what you said made me uncomfortable, whether that was your intent or not.
Jen, definitely -- I tend to be more interested in reductive questions, not because they're more important, but because they tend to hold the more intriguing mystery to me. I guess that's one of those male behaviors I don't feel particularly compelled to avoid. ;)
I think the main things I like about being a woman are how I am treated and how I am allowed to be – how I can live my life now. That makes it sound like a purely social construct, but there is much more to it for me – how I feel about myself, how my body seems to be "right" now rather than wrong, how I feel with the right hormones in my system. I guess bottom-line is that I like being a woman because that's what I am and don't know how to be anything else very well.
What's it mean to me to be a woman? To be whole, complete, and myself.
- Kate
I want to be female and feminine. I have loved all things feminine all my life and now that I am living as a woman I can do all the things I dreamed about but could not do as a man. I love shopping for pretty clothes, hair, makeup, nails, shoes, purses. I love these things inside and I don't feel I am trying to meet some societial standard. I am now free to walk into a store and try on a new skirt or get a makeover at Macy's. Lots of GGs love the same thing and I am glad to be one of them. Some women are more feminine than others; I just happen to be way over on the feminine side and I plan to stay there now that I am free.
Pam (who loves all things feminine)
Quote from: uni on July 23, 2010, 10:04:54 PM
Since when does being a woman mean finding the man who treats you like a woman from a time period when women didn't have rights? Being a wife isn't a career, you can't just get married and expect a man to take care of you as if you were a child in exchange for some housework and laundry.
I don't expect my future Husband to take care of me as if I where a child and certainly not in exchange for some housework and laundry.
But he is a perfect Gentleman, he seems to treat me even better since I told him my trans history, now if I decide to give up work after we get married it will be my choice, I probably stay working my 3days, but he did say he'd prefer if I gave up work but he's not forcing me, it will be my choice, but if I did he'd look after all my needs and financial needs, now Im a high maintenance woman, I heard shoes being mentioned, I don't think he'll force me to give up work lol if he does, well he knows Iv a high budget on shoes, clothes dresses makeup beauty cosmetics and my hair, I spend a small fortune on my hair, he knows its expensive being a woman but he doesn't mind paying, he regularly gives me gift vouchers for a beauty salon where I sometimes get my nails done, in return I'II do all the cooking and laundry but he does all heavy repair work that he would never let me do, because he's a Gentleman and he certainly knows how to treat a woman, he makes me feel very very feminine, Im very lucky and happy to be a woman.
Quote from: kelly_aus on July 23, 2010, 10:50:52 PM
Never, as far as I'm aware.. However, and here's a surprise, not all women want the same things.. Do I want to be a housewife? No, not really, but for the right man, sure.. As long as we were both happy, who cares?
I never thought Id be some guy's housewife, but Iv met the right guy and he wants me to be his housewife, so Im going to be his housewife and Im really looking forward to the challenge, hopefully we'll both be happy, wish me luck.
p
I've noticed that I seem to be much more sensitive and intuitive than other guys. More than once I've been watching TV with other men and women and the women and I pick up on something subtle - we turn to each other and giggle or make a comment, and the men in the room are oblivious to what is going on. One case was two female newscasters that were both wearing a blue dress and one seemed all uppity, and this other girl and I both turned to each other noticing the same thing. The other day in a music video a couple girls walked past a cute guy and then looked at each other and made a face - the other girl in the room and I both looked at each other, giggled, and covered our mouths at the same time - the guys were looking at the boobies or something, I don't know.
Perlita, I agree that what you're describing is a common difference between men and women. But I've met plenty of men that were just as tapped into emotions as most women, and I've met plenty of women who are as detached as most men. So is it essential -- the sine qua non or womanhood? In my opinion, no.
The reason I mention it is that I don't think most of these answers are addressing Robertina's original question. (I'm just mentioning yours because it's the most recent -- I could say the same elsewhere.) I get the feeling that this is not an abstract, philosophical question for her. She has posted a lot of questions about these differences, and if I recall correctly, she came to Susan's struggling with the question of whether she is trans -- in other words, whether she is female. So the question is not really, "What does it mean to be a woman?" but rather, "How do I know if I am a woman?"
I have resisted a lot of the characterizations described here, not because I think they are cheap stereotypes (perhaps they are and perhaps they're not; it's immaterial), but because I don't think it helps someone in Robertina's situation.
Before I transitioned I was utterly alienated. I had some close friends, but I had to fight for them, and I was baffled by the effortless way I saw women connect with others. People that knew me saw me as very empathetic, but only close friends -- others just saw me as strange. And my own feelings, well, forget it. I couldn't let myself acknowledge my feelings, because it was just too scary.
Once I gave up trying to construe myself as male, in accordance with external expectations, once I began my transition and started to experience new ways of connecting with other women -- and with men, too -- once I started reflecting on my childhood and letting myself see the girl I was rather than the boy others saw, I gradually began to see all the ways, some trivial and some profound, that I fit as a girl.
Some ways, even many ways, I don't fit in with women, at least not with a lot of them. For one thing, I'm not into boys, not one little bit. When other women start with that, I'm completely left out. Of course, I never fit in with men when they started talking about women, either. Among lesbians, it's a whole lot easier, and in retrospect, it really always has been.
So I've got to go with Kate. It just fits. The rest is fun as a parlor game, but it's not what really matters. So, Robertina, does womanhood fit you? There's no way I can answer that. The only way to find out is to try it on for size. There's just no other way.
Quote from: uni on July 23, 2010, 10:04:54 PM
Since when does being a woman mean finding the man who treats you like a woman from a time period when women didn't have rights? Being a wife isn't a career, you can't just get married and expect a man to take care of you as if you were a child in exchange for some housework and laundry.
Where did she say she expected anything for anything? She merely described the life in which she lives, one in which both she and her boyfriend are happy.
You want to "fight the good fight," that's fine, but don't imagine battles where there are none.
Quote from: uni on July 23, 2010, 10:04:54 PM
Since when does being a woman mean finding the man who treats you like a woman from a time period when women didn't have rights? Being a wife isn't a career, you can't just get married and expect a man to take care of you as if you were a child in exchange for some housework and laundry.
If i dont work its because that will be MY choice and what I see is best for my family. It by no means makes me less as a person to be a stay at home mom, its what I put value as that is important and to me its more important that my man is happy everyday he comes back from work and my adopted children are developing well with my guidance. To have a child that I raised call me mom for the rest of my life is more rewarding then a job that pays 6 figures ever will be because in the end i want my life to mean something more then the bottom of line of some company's business portfolio.
I will be retiring from my job early in 5 years, after which my husband will support the family, however due to my current and forecasted financial position, i would have made adequate investments to replace my salary entirely, so while i maybe a house wife, i am by no means stupid. I run the fiances, which even now includes my fiance's money.
Also i dont feel like a woman because of him, i feel more a woman when i am with him, because he brings out emotions in me that you only feel when your with someone you love and know he loves you back.
Quote from: Izumi on July 26, 2010, 01:29:34 PM
If i dont work its because that will be MY choice and what I see is best for my family. It by no means makes me less as a person to be a stay at home mom, its what I put value as that is important and to me its more important that my man is happy everyday he comes back from work and my adopted children are developing well with my guidance. To have a child that I raised call me mom for the rest of my life is more rewarding then a job that pays 6 figures ever will be because in the end i want my life to mean something more then the bottom of line of some company's business portfolio.
I will be retiring from my job early in 5 years, after which my husband will support the family, however due to my current and forecasted financial position, i would have made adequate investments to replace my salary entirely, so while i maybe a house wife, i am by no means stupid. I run the fiances, which even now includes my fiance's money.
Also i dont feel like a woman because of him, i feel more a woman when i am with him, because he brings out emotions in me that you only feel when your with someone you love and know he loves you back.
Very well put Izumi, if my husband wants me to be a full time housewife I will consider it but the choice will be mine, at least he's honest, a full time housewife is a busy job cooking, cleaning, dusting and ironing etc. then working 3days as well, so I maybe glad to give up work lol I'II do a trial period, then my day off is for me, pampering shopping etc.
But to get back on thread, the only missing piece of womanhood for me is getting pregnant and having my own children, sadly thats impossible, Im a woman in everyway, my boyfriend tells me Im a beautiful woman, but I can never have his children because Im a trans woman, Id loved to have periods and give birth but thats only a dream, but Im still a woman with a dream for a child to call me Mom, still being excepted, is what it means to be a woman to me, yes Im a girl, Im a woman, Im female and its a beautiful feminine womanly feeling, its awsome!
Quote from: pretty pauline on July 26, 2010, 05:56:37 PM
Very well put Izumi, if my husband wants me to be a full time housewife I will consider it but the choice will be mine, at least he's honest, a full time housewife is a busy job cooking, cleaning, dusting and ironing etc. then working 3days as well, so I maybe glad to give up work lol I'II do a trial period, then my day off is for me, pampering shopping etc.
But to get back on thread, the only missing piece of womanhood for me is getting pregnant and having my own children, sadly thats impossible, Im a woman in everyway, my boyfriend tells me Im a beautiful woman, but I can never have his children because Im a trans woman, Id loved to have periods and give birth but thats only a dream, but Im still a woman with a dream for a child to call me Mom, still being excepted, is what it means to be a woman to me, yes Im a girl, Im a woman, Im female and its a beautiful feminine womanly feeling, its awsome!
You and me are the same in that respect that i too wish i could have my own child, but i cant, although i have taken care of children in my family and from that experience i think i would make an ok mom. I am not waiting to marriage to see how much i like being a housewife though. I started it early, although i still work, i took up the duties as well. Cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. etc.. When my fiance gets home he can relax and enjoy himself, he knows i got things. If i hate doing it with the combination of my job now, i will hate it later without my job, so far for 5 weeks living together, i still enjoy it every time he says what i made him for dinner tasted amazing. He also does things for me, without me even asking him, which i love. If he sees i am tired he will rub my back or tickle it. He takes care of my feet and generally has been neater since he knows i do the cleaning, he takes into consideration that its more work for me, but i am happy to do it. If i can handle both work and this, just doing house work later will be easy.
By the way it is a lot of work, laundry for 2 takes a few hours to do if you do it right, cooking at least 2 if you make meals for the day and the day after (he has to have lunch and breakfast you know, and so do you). Cleaning up after a man... heh, you know how that is.... Throw a child into the mix and you got a whole day of work no problem that doesnt end at regular hours.
I am a housewife. It is and often times hard job. I tend my pets, cook the meals, clean the house do laundry and a ->-bleeped-<- ton of things around here all the time. I am rarely not doing something. To hear anyone denigrate or doubt a housewifes value really pisses me off.
I get my spouse up and ready for work, prepare lunches and I am hir first line counsiler and confiant. I meet hir at the door when ze comes home and most the time have a hot meal ready when ze gets home. Housewives are the mortar in many families and when she is not at optimum the entire household suffers. The value of a compitant housewife is vastly beyond that of many other members of our society.
And to think so many women do all I do while also bareing and raising children!
Respect the housewife!
I feel that we are what we are and not what we do. I have gotten over trying to be what I do. I taught elementary school and being of unsound mind tried to be a male elementary and middle school teacher in little German-Russian and Scandinavian praire communities, on two different Native Ameican Communities, and in an inner city Black community in northern Florida. In every community there a multitude of ways to be feminine. I am still helping to raise children, have grown children, and grandchildren and am currently retired. Female is what I am, my role in my current family debends upon my GG spouse. In the past I changed diapers and washed clothes and mopped floors, and did many culturally stereo typical female chores even when masquerading as a male. For me, in my sixties my goal is to be a happy go lucky female and make as many changes as life permits me. Yes shaving my beard constantly is getting very irritating and I wish that my fake boobs weren't removable and they even feel real, like one who looses an arm and still feels its there, and bouncing between being being girlish at home and butch when out and about puts me on a rolly coaster, but thats my life. Being outgoing to survive, but really shy and self conscious and not wanting to draw attension to myself doesn't help either. I become more myself everyday. And if some day I take hormones, it will not matter how my feeling change and my attraction changes from women to men, I will remain loyal to my spouse, because thats how I am. I guess thats how Scorpios are, at least this one is. I am a female lesbian wolf and I mate for life as long as my mate will have me.
While I have fathered children, I know I will always miss being pregnate and carrying a little new life within me and giving birth. But my spouce will think I am nuts.
The value of a compitant housewife is vastly beyond that of many other members of our society.
To who exactly? To the spouse/mate who is getting a cook/maid, sure. To the rest of society, what exactly are you doing for them? Nada.
Quote from: MissAshley on July 26, 2010, 12:47:06 PM
Where did she say she expected anything for anything? She merely described the life in which she lives, one in which both she and her boyfriend are happy.
You want to "fight the good fight," that's fine, but don't imagine battles where there are none.
All relationships are based on expectations of one another and if the couple is happy then those expectations have been met. I was wondering why putting oneself in such a submissive and vulnerable role is representative of womanhood because her summary of womanhood pretty much describes my definition of what womanhood is not. Obviously it is different for everybody and I am most interested in understanding the beliefs that are most different from my own because I am not the type of person who picks fights. I enjoy having discussions with others and it is a feminine reaction to take another's curiosity as a personal attack when in reality it's not. It is also a feminine reaction on my part to find common ground and empathize in areas of disagreement rather than just have it be an "I'm right, you're wrong" type.
Being a wife and housework generally go together no matter what, it comes with the role. I never claimed it was easy and it definitely is underappreciated. I am trying to make the point that the only thing more difficult than being a fulltime housewife/mom is having a fulltime career and having to be the fulltime housewife/mom. This is reality for a lot of women, particularly the women in my life that I look up to most. I guess I just cannot even fathom what it would be like marrying a man knowing that I am not 100% financially self-sufficient first. It would contradict the strength and independence that I value and wish to promote in my version of womanhood.
Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2010, 10:28:20 PM
The value of a compitant housewife is vastly beyond that of many other members of our society.
To who exactly? To the spouse/mate who is getting a cook/maid, sure. To the rest of society, what exactly are you doing for them? Nada.
You are providing a stable base for your family of course. Your not a cook or maid, your a wife, its a different duty all together, isn't it each other's duty in marriage to look after each other. You would put your work in front of your spouse? Who profits, lots of people, your friends and family for being able to see you more, your kids, your spouse, just because someone i never met cant buy a mercedes because of the big deal i helped to put together doesnt make me any less important. I will count my success based on the health of my family rather then some nameless corporation. When your children grow up knowing mom and dad care about them they have a higher rate of success at life, and with the right guidance can go on to be greater then you were or ever will be, and when someone wins an award typically the first people they thank is their parents.
A housewife provides stability in the family, she makes all the decisions regarding the home and how it operates as typically financial matters and investments, at least thats what I do, my fiance works, but he only gets a small allowance a week for his own personal stuff, but he doesnt care because I give him everything he needs and more, and he does the same for me.
Post Merge: July 26, 2010, 10:03:45 PM
Quote from: uni on July 26, 2010, 10:39:29 PM
All relationships are based on expectations of one another and if the couple is happy then those expectations have been met. I was wondering why putting oneself in such a submissive and vulnerable role is representative of womanhood because her summary of womanhood pretty much describes my definition of what womanhood is not. Obviously it is different for everybody and I am most interested in understanding the beliefs that are most different from my own because I am not the type of person who picks fights. I enjoy having discussions with others and it is a feminine reaction to take another's curiosity as a personal attack when in reality it's not. It is also a feminine reaction on my part to find common ground and empathize in areas of disagreement rather than just have it be an "I'm right, you're wrong" type.
Being a wife and housework generally go together no matter what, it comes with the role. I never claimed it was easy and it definitely is underappreciated. I am trying to make the point that the only thing more difficult than being a fulltime housewife/mom is having a fulltime career and having to be the fulltime housewife/mom. This is reality for a lot of women, particularly the women in my life that I look up to most. I guess I just cannot even fathom what it would be like marrying a man knowing that I am not 100% financially self-sufficient first. It would contradict the strength and independence that I value and wish to promote in my version of womanhood.
Your not putting yourself in a submissive role, all the husbands that have to sleep on couches instead of in the bedroom can attest to that. You rule the home, including everyone it, its actually a position of power, with that power you have responsibilities, your husband does his job, you do yours, but you dont do it because your subservient to him, you do it because you CARE about him, CARE that he works longer hours and harder then you will even if you worked to 2 jobs (at least in my case he does). After he gets home i want it to be be a place of peace where he can relax and relieve all the pent up stress and tension of work, i do this not because of obligation to him in anyway, its because i love him and i put his needs in front of my own, he does the same for me, he pulled a muscle yesterday and could barely walk, he knows we need money so he limped off to work today no matter how much i told him to stay home. My comfort and the family well being (mainly mine since we dont have kids), means more to him then his own pain. You see its not about who is dominant and who isnt, you have been caught in the machine so long you look at relationships as what you can get out of them, you defined it as:
"All relationships are based on expectations of one another and if the couple is happy then those expectations have been met."
Thats a lie, i know plenty of families very happy even though little or no expectations are met, simply because they care about each other. If you look at a relationship as what you can get out of it, that selfish an doomed to failure, simply because once you get what you want, and cant get anything else you desire out of the relationship, whats the point in staying? move on and find someone else you can get stuff from...
A true mutual relationship isnt about what you can get, its what you can give, if your spouse is a normal man, all you have to do is show him love and appreciation everyday and he would take a bullet for you. He will also show his love for you back in his own ways. If you give and expect stuff in return your missing the point, however, if you give and give and give and see nothing, he might not be the man for you. Thankfully my guy gives back in ways i couldnt even imagine when i met him.
To the rest of society, what exactly are you doing for them?
That, could be asked to a majority of people. From a homeless disabled person looking for a meal and place to sleep to the most powerful people in the world. 'Hey CEO of XYZ Company! What are you doing for the rest of society?'
And there are those who are content to not doing anything for society. Are they obligated to? And who judges when a person has done enough?
Which society are you obligated to? Some parts definetly don't think they are in any way obligated to who they define as different.
The uppity society? The music society? The list goes on and on. Am I obligated to contribute to your society? Is my society even a part of the 'big' society? Is yours or theirs? Who verifies this?
House wives do what they do for any number of reasons. Many times I'm sure that they have done their contributions, and who is to say how valid is anyones contributions are. How much would be acceptable?
Quote from: Izumi on July 26, 2010, 10:51:39 PM
Your not putting yourself in a submissive role, all the husbands that have to sleep on couches instead of in the bedroom can attest to that. You rule the home, including everyone it, its actually a position of power, with that power you have responsibilities, your husband does his job, you do yours, but you dont do it because your subservient to him, you do it because you CARE about him, CARE that he works longer hours and harder then you will even if you worked to 2 jobs (at least in my case he does).
It is extremely vulnerable not to have a plan B with the divorce rate being so high. A lot of women are one man away from welfare. In the event of divorce, who is the one who gets the house and who is the one who has to move in with their family or friends? The stay at home mom/housewife has nothing to fall back on unless she gets some money from the court. This puts many men in an awful position if they want a divorce even if it's mutual. He has to be the jackass that either kicks her out with nowhere else to go, or lets her live there just so he wont look bad.
Good luck trying to pay the bills with CARE when you have nothing but yourself to rely on. See how far that power will take you in the absence of a home. See how many responses your resume gets if the only job experience is "homemaker" and you need to make a living wage to support your children.
You are submissive because in worst case scenario, as unfair as it may be, the housewife has much more to lose than the husband.
QuoteAfter he gets home i want it to be be a place of peace where he can relax and relieve all the pent up stress and tension of work, i do this not because of obligation to him in anyway, its because i love him and i put his needs in front of my own, he does the same for me, he pulled a muscle yesterday and could barely walk, he knows we need money so he limped off to work today no matter how much i told him to stay home. My comfort and the family well being (mainly mine since we dont have kids), means more to him then his own pain. You see its not about who is dominant and who isnt, you have been caught in the machine so long you look at relationships as what you can get out of them, you defined it as:
"All relationships are based on expectations of one another and if the couple is happy then those expectations have been met."
Thats a lie, i know plenty of families very happy even though little or no expectations are met, simply because they care about each other. If you look at a relationship as what you can get out of it, that selfish an doomed to failure, simply because once you get what you want, and cant get anything else you desire out of the relationship, whats the point in staying? move on and find someone else you can get stuff from...
A true mutual relationship isnt about what you can get, its what you can give, if your spouse is a normal man, all you have to do is show him love and appreciation everyday and he would take a bullet for you. He will also show his love for you back in his own ways. If you give and expect stuff in return your missing the point, however, if you give and give and give and see nothing, he might not be the man for you. Thankfully my guy gives back in ways i couldnt even imagine when i met him.
I hate the idea of a head of the household or anyone being the dominant one. Having high expectations for the people you love and care about has nothing to do with greed or getting what you want. It is the reason I will not settle for just anybody. I want a man with high enough standards to not feel emasculated to be with a woman who has an opinion and who wants more in life than to just make babies. I want someone who is willing to give it all, because they know that they will not be taken advantage of. You would not be with this man you are with if he treated you badly. You chose to stay with him because you feel the amount of love you give is being returned. That's not selfishness, that is having self-respect. That is having standards on how you expect to be treated that reflect expectations you have on yourself.
Why is it that the ones who are closest to us are the ones who are capable of hurting us the most? My expectations are certainly higher for a family member or friend than a random stranger.
You would put your work in front of your spouse?
Well, not just 'ya', but 'hell yeah!' I've done it several times in the past (only one ex-spouse, I learned that lesson, but several runners-up and also-rans). I'd make exactly the same choice today as I did then if it ever came up. "It's me or the job," really? Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
Why do you think that divorce is far more common in high-powered professions (politics, law, doctors, CEOs) then in more menial work? Because that choice is no choice at all. There is a world full of potential lovers, but only one political life. In entertainment, as everyone knows, marriage is pretty much a joke. But that's not just the stars. It's the producers, directors, studio exes, writers too. And it's industry wide top to bottom. So its not just the star of the movie, or the big rock star - it's also their managers, the electricians on the set, the carps, the roadies, the techies, the lighting people - it's frickin' everyone. My boss has been married three times now, we don't think he'll ever learn. That work is far more interesting than any other single person could ever be.
And the divorce rate in the entertainment industry is no bigger than the one in academia. The classes, the research, your colleagues are all far more interesting than any other single person is, it's more interesting than any other single person ever could be. Hell, in some cases, unlike entertainment, it might even actually be important.
I'm all in favor of people doing what ever in the hell they want to do, so long as they don't ask me to subsidize it. But I'm not going to give up the right to make distinctions about people's choices either. If you want to lay on a beach in some third-world county and be a surf bum, fine - but don't try to equate it as somehow equal in social value to being a nurse or a fireman. It's groovy that you found what makes you happy, and swell on you for that - but that sure don't mean I have to value it. To value it possibly being ABOVE (as the op stated) other things verges on being delusional. (And, I suspect that if I really dug, I'd find out this 'choice' is really being paid for by someone else, namely you and me.)
I don't understand why people make judgements about how people should feel or act. In my opinion if a woman wants to be a homemaker and take care of her man that is just fine. I like being a homemaker, shopping and having lunch with the girls. I hated the competitive corporate world and now that I am living as a woman I am happy to be relieved of the stress of being a tough guy at the office. I was never a tough guy; I was always a gentle woman.
Pam
I place my family before any other considerations. I would give my life for them. If you serve yourself first then so be it. But do not denigrate me because I serve my family first.
As I and others have said, what it means to be a woman is simply to be one. It is simple yet profound, and there are as many answers as there are women. I am fully looking forward to spending the rest of my life answering that question for myself.
Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2010, 10:28:20 PM
To who exactly? To the spouse/mate who is getting a cook/maid, sure. To the rest of society, what exactly are you doing for them? Nada.
As a graphic designer what benefit really do I bestow on society? In the best case, I draw a pretty picture that, if I did my job well, and somebody else does their job well, then somebody somewhere might make some extra money, or get something even more abstract out of it.
Most people don't serve society with their jobs and that is not why most people work. Usually people do their job because a) they feel they have to and/or b) they get some personal fulfillment out of doing it.
Those who are lucky enough to have an occupation that does make a real difference are the major exception. We can't all be teachers and scientists. I think for the women (and men) that
choose to be great homemakers can justifiably get every bit the feeling of personal fulfillment and satisfaction out of their work that the rest of the world gets from their rat-race jobs.
And if their duties include raising some great kids, then they may make a positive impact on the world after all.
Quote from: uni on July 26, 2010, 11:51:56 PM
It is extremely vulnerable not to have a plan B with the divorce rate being so high. A lot of women are one man away from welfare. In the event of divorce, who is the one who gets the house and who is the one who has to move in with their family or friends? The stay at home mom/housewife has nothing to fall back on unless she gets some money from the court. This puts many men in an awful position if they want a divorce even if it's mutual. He has to be the jackass that either kicks her out with nowhere else to go, or lets her live there just so he wont look bad.
Good luck trying to pay the bills with CARE when you have nothing but yourself to rely on. See how far that power will take you in the absence of a home. See how many responses your resume gets if the only job experience is "homemaker" and you need to make a living wage to support your children.
You are submissive because in worst case scenario, as unfair as it may be, the housewife has much more to lose than the husband.
I hate the idea of a head of the household or anyone being the dominant one. Having high expectations for the people you love and care about has nothing to do with greed or getting what you want. It is the reason I will not settle for just anybody. I want a man with high enough standards to not feel emasculated to be with a woman who has an opinion and who wants more in life than to just make babies. I want someone who is willing to give it all, because they know that they will not be taken advantage of. You would not be with this man you are with if he treated you badly. You chose to stay with him because you feel the amount of love you give is being returned. That's not selfishness, that is having self-respect. That is having standards on how you expect to be treated that reflect expectations you have on yourself.
Why is it that the ones who are closest to us are the ones who are capable of hurting us the most? My expectations are certainly higher for a family member or friend than a random stranger.
You assume that housewives are uneducated just because they choose to stay home and therefore cant take care of themselves, well they can, easily in most cases, some used to even be CEO's of corporations, dont tell me they will be hurting if the spouse leaves, you should wait until you have established yourself before getting married anyway.
If your plan expects divorce then you shouldnt get married in the first place. Marriage is supposed to be between two people that pledge each to the other, its a lifetime thing. Dating is how you determine if you want to marry someone or not. After about 1.5 years of dating you know if they are the one or not, hell i can tell if someone is marriage material or not in a few dates. The reason divorces happen is the following:
1) people marry too young, before they establish themselves as individuals, and understand what marriage really is.
2) people are selfish, only caring about their needs
3) people ignore red flags during dating thinking they can change behavior after marriage (women especially)
4) people marry for the wrong reasons (financial for example)
There is probably more, but slipped my mind. If you wait till after college to get married you will have your education and even if your a housewife, you will make it in the world, its very rare that the assets are not spread 50/50 with custody and child support payments going to the wife. If you do cheat on your husband, then you deserve to lose all that, call it penance for your breaking a sacred bond.
The problem is also your expectation of men. The typical man wants to feel like he can protect his family from harm, physical or financial, you take that away from him by being dominant or whatever, you just made him not a man in his own eyes. Men have to be men, men do, its what they do.
I can without a doubt take care of myself, i make more then him too. Thats not the point though, i let him be a man, because thats what makes him happy and i care about his needs. If a man beats you, then you shouldnt marry him in the first place and i made that very clear to him, if he ever hurt me physically we are done, over, finished, no second chance. I dated him to find out what kind of person he is, most people ignore the warning signs (red flags) because they want the dream, they think they can change an abusive man, think that no one but me understands him, i can fix him... yeah right.
If you marry an abusive man, your just stupid, and you put YOURSELF in that position.
You also think head of household means someone is dominant and someone is submissive. I can tell my fiance to go to hell anytime i want, and he would leave me alone, He asks me for things, i do it because i love him, not because hes dominant, just as easily i could refuse and he would accept it. The same goes for me. See, dominance comes into play only if your selfish, if your not, your simply giving, and they will give to. Its a relationship of love, not power.
I am not trying to be mean or sound rude or anything but your getting love and power confused. If you love someone you dont treat them like an equal, you treat them better then you treat yourself, you raise them above you. If they love you, they would do the same, then you both end up on top in the other persons eyes.
Post Merge: July 27, 2010, 12:16:44 PM
Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2010, 11:58:34 PM
You would put your work in front of your spouse?
Well, not just 'ya', but 'hell yeah!' I've done it several times in the past (only one ex-spouse, I learned that lesson, but several runners-up and also-rans). I'd make exactly the same choice today as I did then if it ever came up. "It's me or the job," really? Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
Why do you think that divorce is far more common in high-powered professions (politics, law, doctors, CEOs) then in more menial work? Because that choice is no choice at all. There is a world full of potential lovers, but only one political life. In entertainment, as everyone knows, marriage is pretty much a joke. But that's not just the stars. It's the producers, directors, studio exes, writers too. And it's industry wide top to bottom. So its not just the star of the movie, or the big rock star - it's also their managers, the electricians on the set, the carps, the roadies, the techies, the lighting people - it's frickin' everyone. My boss has been married three times now, we don't think he'll ever learn. That work is far more interesting than any other single person could ever be.
And the divorce rate in the entertainment industry is no bigger than the one in academia. The classes, the research, your colleagues are all far more interesting than any other single person is, it's more interesting than any other single person ever could be. Hell, in some cases, unlike entertainment, it might even actually be important.
I'm all in favor of people doing what ever in the hell they want to do, so long as they don't ask me to subsidize it. But I'm not going to give up the right to make distinctions about people's choices either. If you want to lay on a beach in some third-world county and be a surf bum, fine - but don't try to equate it as somehow equal in social value to being a nurse or a fireman. It's groovy that you found what makes you happy, and swell on you for that - but that sure don't mean I have to value it. To value it possibly being ABOVE (as the op stated) other things verges on being delusional. (And, I suspect that if I really dug, I'd find out this 'choice' is really being paid for by someone else, namely you and me.)
I feel sorry for you. I really do. You can have your job that pays tons of money. Who will you pay to care about you when you die? Even if your famous, and are remembered through history, your just another page in the history book eventually to be lost in time. When your here you made money and partied a lot, had a lot of fun, had a lot of fast affairs and hot dates, but who is going to care about you, instead of your money? You might turn out to be on of those rich millionaires that got hot guys/gals 1/2 there age, but they will only fake caring for you until you keel over and they get your estate. Heh, i would rather die with no money and my family who loves me around me, then that kind of death.
Also you assume that I cannot make money while being a housewife. Thats an interesting thought since instead of working for my money, i will let my money work for me, in 5 years of hard work i will lay the foundations for a stead stream of income that will replace my current salary. I will continue to manage the finances throughout my life, which is when we both decided i would quit my job and raise a family, but my income will still be there. All financial decisions are mine, my fiance just asks if he can get this or that, i tell him no, he knows its no, because i always have a reason. Decisions themselves are also mutual, if he says no and i say yes, its no. We both have to say yes for it to go ahead.
Sometimes we need more of a live and let live attitude. I saw that whatever makes you and your family happy, then go for it, whether it is full time housewife or career woman. Of course, many career women are still full time housewives unless they hire out someone, but you get my point.
I have health problems that keep me from having a job, but that makes me feel what I do for the family is even more important. Though I don't have a spouse, I do help my brother a lot because he works so many hours and is doing so for our future. I cook, do laundry, clean the house, and try to make him comfortable when he comes home, such as getting him something cold to drink and doing whatever he would like to do. He always pays when we go out, and he is so caring (he will make someone a great wife someday).
I told him that when the time comes I will try to help him on the ranch, and at least milk some cows and bring him his lunch (via horseback - if I don't fall off), but he told me that we wants me to stay in the house and help his mother take care of things, so I will probably do a little of both, at least until he gets a wife.
Being the 1950's housewife is ok if its what you want to do or feel you need to do. But for me I can't have to do it because that's is what a woman does. One of the ways I was hardest on my self was with all of the things a man of the Dakota prairies had to do and had to do perfectly and by himself to be a man. As a woman I can choose to do or not do these things and its ok if I am not perfect and make mistakes. Needing to do somethings because they need to be done is one thing, but doing them because they have to be because that's what the stereo typical role of the place we grow up in says we have to is another. As a woman I might actually enjoy some of the things I had to do as a man. I might even feel good about myself for doing them. But as a man I was never good enough, and never let myself feel good about anything I did because I never measured up to my expectations, and of course I didn't because I wasn't a man, I was and am a woman.
Quote from: michelle on July 27, 2010, 01:10:45 PM
Being the 1950's housewife is ok if its what you want to do or feel you need to do. But for me I can't have to do it because that's is what a woman does. One of the ways I was hardest on my self was with all of the things a man of the Dakota prairies had to do and had to do perfectly and by himself to be a man. As a woman I can choose to do or not do these things and its ok if I am not perfect and make mistakes. Needing to do somethings because they need to be done is one thing, but doing them because they have to be because that's what the stereo typical role of the place we grow up in says we have to is another. As a woman I might actually enjoy some of the things I had to do as a man. I might even feel good about myself for doing them. But as a man I was never good enough, and never let myself feel good about anything I did because I never measured up to my expectations, and of course I didn't because I wasn't a man, I was and am a woman.
Yeah i understand what you mean, as a man i never felt quite right, like i was constantly doing something wrong and didnt know what. In groups of men i could not function, it was strange, for some reason i was always the odd one out even though i was pretty fit and could play the same sports well. I just felt strange like i didnt belong, the exact opposite in groups of women, i loved home economics class because it was mostly girls and we would just talk and sew, or talk and cook, i had a fear of asking a girl out, but talking to them in a casual environment felt great, it was wonderful and i always looked forward to being part of mostly women groups. In groups of men it felt like everyone was watching me waiting for me to make a mistake or something so they could attack, it was a strange feeling of uneasiness.
The best way i could describe it is living in the matrix. Like everything in front of you, you have to accept but you know in the back of your mind its not real.
Quote from: Izumi on July 27, 2010, 01:26:02 PM
In groups of men it felt like everyone was watching me waiting for me to make a mistake or something so they could attack, it was a strange feeling of uneasiness.
It's strange, I felt the exact same way when surrounded by women! Especially in home ec class. :laugh:
I guess I, for me, had a break through in all of this. I was focused on how the world saw me as a women, or how others saw me as a woman. But for me, that is not really the focus. This isn't about how others see me. Its about how I see me as a woman. Its about how I feel about me as a woman. Its about what I need to do for my self as a woman. I need to feel comfortable about my looks and feelings and not fear what the world cares. I grew up in an emotionally charged alcoholic family where in order to survive I had to focus on the emotions aimed at me. If I wanted peace I had to emotionally feel out the world around me, then judge what would happen if I did this or I did that. Emotionally I had no self image of myself, life was all about everyone else. It never got physical with me as a youth except with my brother and we never hurt each other because I never pushed it. Emotionally there was no one out there for me except myself. Now at 63 I find this shell beginning to crack away and I am watching such shows as the Cherry Bomb TV girls and letting myself feel about the issues and myself. When I look in the mirror I like the girl looking back.
Michelle, what you say resonates with me. I had to always be concerned about others and their reactions. We were not allowed to express ourselves, which of course, is very unhealthy. I think that my break through will also come when I am able to find myself, based on who I really am, and not based on the expectations of others. But, right now, when I look in the mirror, I see a stranger.
Good question.
As I settle into my life as a woman, I am starting to feel it more fully than I ever did. But what does it mean? I don't know. I just know that I feel like me and I am learning what being me actually is.
Simply for me, to be a woman means being myself. But I am still working out what that is. But so far the biggest thing for me has been to be loved as a woman and love as a woman. I can't describe how beautiful that is.
I'm all about letting people choose how to live their lives. But if you start channelling Phyllis Schlafly, you can go to hell. Subservient domesticity is not in any way "what it means to be a woman" -- remember the subject of this thread? -- however much it might be a part of your own gender expression. When you suggest it is, you are the one who is telling others how to live their lives.
I feel a very strong need to point out being a housewife doesn't equal subservience, at least not in my family..
Similarly, being a housewife -- or a wife at all -- is not "what it means to be a woman," despite the word's etymology.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 27, 2010, 06:51:23 PM
I'm all about letting people choose how to live their lives. But if you start channelling Phyllis Schlafly, you can go to hell. Subservient domesticity is not in any way "what it means to be a woman" -- remember the subject of this thread? -- however much it might be a part of your own gender expression. When you suggest it is, you are the one who is telling others how to live their lives.
I think we got off on a tangent, when people hear the word housewife they instantly assume woman = housewife therefor woman = slave.
I was simply using my relationship with my fiance to point out that he brings out the best in me as a woman, i did mention to everyone being a woman means different things, i stated this many times, then i pointed out that i am a woman everyday but i am more of a woman when i am with my man, because he is able to let out the intimate side of me. People somehow got that into their heads that because i wanted to be a housewife, the context of what i was writing was lost, and the thread started turning to weird places of profession bashing.....
Why is it that people selectively read, it wasnt that i was housewife that made me a woman, i was a woman before and being with my man made me feel more so, the same could be true for two lesbians simply because you show more of your true self to someone you love rather then the average person you meet in a day.
I understood your meaning Izumi, and I hope to one day meet that special person, be they male or female, or somewhere in between, that can really help bring out and express the true me, the woman I am. =] it must really be a great feeling to have that love and comfort =]
Izumi, I wasn't specifically referring to you or anyone else, though I have certainly heard the sentiment expressed on Susan's. It's just a general feeling that the discussion took on. Like you said, it was a tangent; it's just that given the topic, it tended to have that implication, even if nobody individually was suggesting that outright.
Quote from: Izumi on July 27, 2010, 12:05:04 PM
I feel sorry for you. I really do. You can have your job that pays tons of money. Who will you pay to care about you when you die? Even if your famous, and are remembered through history, your just another page in the history book eventually to be lost in time. When your here you made money and partied a lot, had a lot of fun, had a lot of fast affairs and hot dates, but who is going to care about you, instead of your money? You might turn out to be on of those rich millionaires that got hot guys/gals 1/2 there age, but they will only fake caring for you until you keel over and they get your estate. Heh, i would rather die with no money and my family who loves me around me, then that kind of death.
Why do you assume that she values the end of her life and the time after she dies so highly that it outweighs the importance of the time she has now as a young healthy woman?
And why do you assume that she values careers/occupations based on the money they bring in? I think that's clearly a misreading of her post - the careers she listed as examples of occupations high in social value are nursing and firefighting, which are far from lucrative. Certainly they bring in less money than well-managed investments.
Quote from: kyril on July 27, 2010, 08:44:26 PM
Why do you assume that she values the end of her life and the time after she dies so highly that it outweighs the importance of the time she has now as a young healthy woman?
And why do you assume that she values careers/occupations based on the money they bring in? I think that's clearly a misreading of her post - the careers she listed as examples of occupations high in social value are nursing and firefighting, which are far from lucrative. Certainly they bring in less money than well-managed investments.
I dont feel sorry for her because of her life path or anything like that, i feel sorry for her because she closes her mind to the option that there could be more to life then a career, it has nothing to do with money and even people with careers have good family lives, it all depends on priorities. What harm could it do to wonder at what other people are saying about family, its true its not for everyone, and feel sad they cant experience that type of joy, thats all.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 27, 2010, 07:22:23 PM
Similarly, being a housewife -- or a wife at all -- is not "what it means to be a woman," despite the word's etymology.
100% agree.