Wondered how other people feel on this subject.
I'm sure we're all familiar with the popular reaction from lesbians.."you're betraying us!" when we transition. I've mentioned to some trans people that I identify less and less as trans and more as a cis dude. Why? I can't explain it without going into a long rant. But right now I'm as stealth as possible. As in, if you didn't know me pre-T when I was more open about being trans and when I was more comfortable admitting it, you're not gonna hear me say that I'm trans if I'm just meeting you now. Once my gender change papers come back and I'm legally male and my name is changed I plan on being completely stealth. Some transpeople who I've mentioned this too had a "YOU'RE BETRAYING US" reaction. I don't see why I should put up with being seen as trans when I'm not...it's just a birth defect. Why people should be angry by correcting this birth defect and moving on with life?
Thoughts?
I completely agree with you. To me, "trans" sort of connotates an "in-between" kind of status which I want to overcome. Personally, I never identified as "trans", I'm not part of the queer community (even though I have friends who are and I agree on theoretical levels, but it's just not me), I want to be regarded as male, not trans. I feel like it has this strong notion of incompleteness. When I see trans guys years after they had surgery and started T, they have certainly arrived somewhere and there is no need to point out the journey that brought them there all the time.
Basically one might claim the whole point of being trans is that you identify as male. So you identify as male in the beginning, you identify as male in the end. Trans is just the state you're in when your outside and inside don't correspond yet.
I identify as a man first and foremost. Having to accept that by doing so makes me a transsexual wasn't so easy. It's something that I've worked on but I still don't apply being trans to my identity. It's like being asthmatic, sure it affects my life and stuff but when people are thinking of me I don't want their first thought to be asthmatic, or transsexual. Artist, musician, weird guy are all more accurate IMO. :P
Sometimes I find the word even, to be hard to say. I want more than anything to be a normal guy, so why make that harder by having to explain transsexualism to everyone I meet? Though I do think its important that people are aware of what it is, I would just rather have only the close people in my life know that I'm going through it so I have a support system, I don't think that's betrayal. I'm as stealth as I can be right now and plan on staying that way.
You'll never be a cissy.
I think that the underlying metaphysical question is one of ownership, which itself reduces to primacy. This is one that's been bothering me for a while, so I'll toss out my hypothesis in a very rough and abbreviated form...
<NERD>
On one side, some believe that consciousness precedes existence, and thus the ideas that are used to form a self-image are the components of the identity, with no underlying essential nature to the person (or, equivalently, the person is said to conform to the superimposed ideas). In this model, you are male because transsexuals created a masculinity for you. Since the ideas used to construct the self-image are learned, or "socially constructed," it follows naturally that something constructed socially is owned communally. Thus, when you choose to use ideas that others believe themselves to have constructed for you, your identity becomes their property. This leads to the belief that you have a responsibility to serve their political ends (their consciousness is the prime value), much as any tool serves its owner, and your refusal to sacrifice your personal welfare for communal welfare is considered betrayal and theft. This position is common among lesbians, artists, and women in general, at this time.
The alternate position, that existence precedes consciousness, holds that learned ideas are used as descriptors of the underlying essential elements of your identity. In this model, you are male, and transsexuals helped to make you aware of your inherent masculinity. Since your identity is defined by your existence, and your existence precedes any ideas used to describe it, it follows that no one has a claim to your identity, regardless of how it is characterized. This leads to the belief that you have a responsibility to serve your own ends (your existence is the prime value), and while you may choose to serve others, you are not required to do so at the cost of your own welfare. This position is common among straight males, scientists, and men in general, at this time.
(The phrase "prime value" means, here, a foundational and axiomatic principle upon which a morality may be validated. The idea is better expressed, perhaps, in the Chinese phrase "太極" or "taiji," which is the central post around which a large wooden building is constructed, or the greek word "αρχή" or "Arch" which means a source or foundation, though neither word was historically used in this manner.)
</NERD>
You are now free to ignore that bit of intellectual wankage and return to your regularly scheduled programming.
- N
Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 19, 2010, 06:40:44 PM
You'll never be a cissy.
This is true. But I am a male, no need for subtitles, imo, whether its "cis" male or "trans" guy
What you do with your life is your choice. You don't "owe" anyone anything in that manner.
But I can say why I won't go stealth, and why I won't "identify" as cis anything.
I tend to associate cis with "born X in X body", thus, I can't be cis as I was "born X in Y body".
Trans, to me, just means "born X in Y body".
It doesn't make one more or less anything.
By going stealth, I would be denying the conditions of my birth and how these conditions helped shape my life. I would be pretending I'm something I'm not, not in the sense of "trans bla bla aren't real bla bla" but in the sense that I am who I am because of the life I've lived, and the life I've lived has been shaped by this factor and will continue to be affected (though to a smaller degree) by this factor for the rest of it.
I choose to be "me", who I am, and who I am is Miniar. Who I am is affected by what I am, and what I am is a man, who was born with girl bits.
So, when conversations revert to pregnancy, I'll refer to my pregnancy.
When conversations include gender issues of any kind, I'll mention the issues I've had.
etc..
I'm not gonna introduce myself as Trans, but I refuse to treat it "special".
I'm Trans. I'm also tall. I'm also Icelandic. I'm also tired. I'm also right handed. I'm also near-sighted. I'm also pansexual. I'm also married. I'm also a mom. I'm also.. I'm also... I'm also..
You get the point.
I just feel that by disassociating myself from this part of my existence, I'm making it into something I don't think it should be.
"A bigger deal."
There's nothing wrong with going deep after transition. I was just making a pun about "cissy" sounding like "sissy." lol
A lot of people break ties with the T community and go deep for years, even decades, only to return eventually, when they are ready.
The way I feel, personally, is that I've always been male and I am just correcting some physical defects. I don't think the gap between genders is as huge as society wants us to believe. I am transitioning now, and I will be male when I decide I am "done". Many men are born with chromosomes that vary from the usual XY. Many are born with, or suffer later with physical defects. I don't see why they should identify as anything other than men.
When I say I consider myself male, I mean... Whether I am trans or cis is just an afterthought. The more important distinction is that I am male, and I don't think being trans should change anything about my identity. I do find it kind of odd as thinking of yourself as cis male specifically. That seems to suggest denial.
For myself, personally I don't think I could ever identify as cis. I don't see it as a birth defect (at least in terms for myself). I don't think I would ever want to be stealth, just seems like too much pressure.
Different strokes for different folks.
Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 19, 2010, 07:11:03 PM
I was just making a pun about "cissy" sounding like "sissy."
I laughed at the pun.
but it is true, you'll never be a cismale, you have grown up as a girl and had different experiences than cis-guys. you can try and hide it, but to some extent you'll always have the transman experiences in you. these experiences tend to shape people's values/beliefs.
you'll never be a cismale, you have grown up as a girl and had different experiences than cis-guys. you can try and hide it, but to some extent you'll always have the transman experiences in you. these experiences tend to shape people's values/beliefs
QFT
From the perspective of survival and welfare, I entirely agree with your position, Leo. No one but your spouse, children, and closest friends should ever know, or it will come to dominate your interactions and affect even more most casual relationships. Transition should end, and be left to fade away into your distant past, clearing the way for a normal life as a man.
- N
Quote from: gilligan on July 19, 2010, 08:38:23 PM
I laughed at the pun.
but it is true, you'll never be a cismale, you have grown up as a girl and had different experiences than cis-guys. you can try and hide it, but to some extent you'll always have the transman experiences in you. these experiences tend to shape people's values/beliefs.
maybe some are not too keen on getting their nose rubbed into it all the time.
i was also a "smart" child and i also never got along with the girls in my class, i was also a wild child that ran around playing with sticks in a forest, i was a child who became a vegetarian, then a vegan, and i was a lot more things as a child which may or may not have shaped me. Who is to determine which characteristics I'm picking out to build my identity? Most people would agree when a cis-woman says she doesn't identify as a "woman" first and foremost. A lot of people wouldn't even be too surprised if "woman" didn't come up at all when she lists her characteristics.
Being the "smart child", there was a time in life where that seemed to be my main trait. Now I'm out of school it doesn't matter so much. Being a vegan, there was a time in life when that seemed to determine my personality a lot. Now that I don't hang with other vegans every day anymore, I hardly ever mention it, and sure don't identify as "the vegan".....and so on. Life is not just a reflection of your childhood and most people trapped in their childhood are not too happy about it.
The defining factor though, is that cis men don't identify as cis men. It's not on their minds. Why should it be on yours?
Neither, I think do many of us who fully transition really identify as trans anything, except on the special occasions where we want to and we choose to because we have the freedom to do that whenever we want, and it brings us together for common cause and for a sense of camaraderie.
I think part of the reason I treat this whole issue like this, with complete denial, is cause of the pain it causes me to even think of or relate to my body. My body to me is an alien. The only thing that I remotely recognize anymore is that my body is taking on masculine characteristics. I was cool with my chest but now it's getting harder to hide cause I'm getting more pecs and muscle can't be bound. Once I'm post top op I'll relate to it more, once I look more masculine from T I'll relate to it more, and once I"m post bottom op and my junk's sewed up and resembles a micro dick...I'll feel alot better. But right now my body is the enemy. I have a deep internal shame for the wrong parts being there and being helpless to change that. I don't recognize the person in the mirror cause I feel the binder, I feel the packer rubbing against the wrong body parts, I see the difference. I hate it. It's all I can do not to go ape s*** on myself sometimes and destroy the body that betrays me. I won't acknowledge that I wasn't raised male or anything. I don't even say ftm cause to me I never was the F. What I mean by identifying as a cis guy is that I want to identify as a normal man who never had this past cause honestly, I'm ashamed of it. It's not even outside influences saying this. It's the fact that I can't relate to my body at all and I'm ashamed of it. Infuriated.
Anyone relate or remotely understand? Or am I entirely deranged?
It was always in my thought that as soon as you were completely transitioned, you essentially WERE cis-gendered. At that point there are only a few missing parts and your genes say that you are the other gender, but legally, and for the most part, physically, you are your target sex. Just my opinion.
Why shame?
Maybe that's something to work on.
Being ashamed of something that is in no way your fault, nor your responsibility is not a good way to live.
Yes, I can sympathize with it, I understand how easily I could fall into that myself, but you know what, I just won't allow the world around me to tell me I'm less of a man because of something "I" have no control over, nor will I allow myself to take responsibility for something "I" did not choose.
This body is not "right" yet, but it's what I was issued with. I'm gonna work on it until it's right.
I've said in the past I don't think I'll ever go stealth. I feel that being trans is a very important part of me and my past, I know that my history is different from the average cis man and I'm not ashamed of that. That being said, once I'm passing full time, I'm not going to go around saying, Hi, I'm Eli and I'm a transsexual. I can see what's attractive about being stealth and I am tempted to go that route, just because I get sick of people expecting me to explain the trans thing.
My new flatmate told me her friend had been really surprised when she told her she "lived with a girl" and not two guys like her friend had originally thought. She told me this as if I'd be really happy to hear someone had "mistaken" me for a guy. I told her never to refer to me as a girl. I also thought, how amazing it would be to have someone think I'm a guy and that's all, no big deal, end of story.
The other thing is, I feel like I know way too many people to ever be stealth. I don't intend on moving cities ever, so I think it's just how I gotta do it.
Quote from: elvistears on July 20, 2010, 05:32:17 PM
I've said in the past I don't think I'll ever go stealth. I feel that being trans is a very important part of me and my past, I know that my history is different from the average cis man and I'm not ashamed of that. That being said, once I'm passing full time, I'm not going to go around saying, Hi, I'm Eli and I'm a transsexual. I can see what's attractive about being stealth and I am tempted to go that route, just because I get sick of people expecting me to explain the trans thing.
Me too. I'm already 20 years old, and I'm not willing to erase those 20 years in order to be completely stealth. My past has made me who I am today, and while I may be ashamed of/embarrassed by my body, I'm not ashamed of my past or who I am as a person. (Although at times it can be difficult for me to sort between the two.)
I can completely understand where you're coming from.
I'm going to go as stealth as humanly possible when I start T and I'm at that point where I can pass 95-100% of the time.
It's not that I'm ashamed of being trans. I just want to be seen as a guy, just a regular guy. I don't want people to act any differently around me or for guys to refrain from 'guy talk' because they're constantly aware of my trans status.
Like I said, I'm not ashamed I just don't want to risk people feeling weird around me or awkward situations and the constant questions, being treat differently etc etc.
If I knew 100% none of that would happen then I probably wouldn't be as bothered to say 'Heyy I'm trans everyone!!'
Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on July 20, 2010, 12:41:13 PM
I think part of the reason I treat this whole issue like this, with complete denial, is cause of the pain it causes me to even think of or relate to my body. My body to me is an alien. The only thing that I remotely recognize anymore is that my body is taking on masculine characteristics. I was cool with my chest but now it's getting harder to hide cause I'm getting more pecs and muscle can't be bound. Once I'm post top op I'll relate to it more, once I look more masculine from T I'll relate to it more, and once I"m post bottom op and my junk's sewed up and resembles a micro dick...I'll feel alot better. But right now my body is the enemy. I have a deep internal shame for the wrong parts being there and being helpless to change that. I don't recognize the person in the mirror cause I feel the binder, I feel the packer rubbing against the wrong body parts, I see the difference. I hate it. It's all I can do not to go ape s*** on myself sometimes and destroy the body that betrays me. I won't acknowledge that I wasn't raised male or anything. I don't even say ftm cause to me I never was the F. What I mean by identifying as a cis guy is that I want to identify as a normal man who never had this past cause honestly, I'm ashamed of it. It's not even outside influences saying this. It's the fact that I can't relate to my body at all and I'm ashamed of it. Infuriated.
Anyone relate or remotely understand? Or am I entirely deranged?
I not only understand this, I feel much the same. I need a large cash infusion to even get close, top surgery would do wonders for a start.
Quote from: zombiesarepeacefultrans when I'm not...it's just a birth defect. Why people should be angry by correcting this birth defect and moving on with life?
Hi Zombiesarepeaceful, I feel there are two sides to the coin.
On one hand: do what makes you happy. You come into this world alone and you leave it alone. Don't live your life for other people, too much.
On the other hand: People fear the unknown. Newmen visibility = less suspicion by cisgen mainsteam people. I'm grateful for every Diago Sanchez, Dhillon Khosla and Lucas Silveira. And what about pre-op transmen who need role models?
Also if I may deviate from your topic a bit:
perhaps we should not say 'defects'. I suggest we say 'unique birth condition'. Otherwise it may lead to people trying to 'cure' you. What I mean is : years ago, scientists said it may be genetically possible to get rid of the gene that makes people gay. There was a huge outcry. Gay people said, homosexuality may be a deviation from the norm, but it is not a defect and gay people have the right to exist. There was panic in the community.
If transexualism is seen as a 'defect', they will soon try to find a way to discover it in the womb. Perhaps women may abort their trans inclined foetus. Or if it is oneday possible to genetically prevent transexualism it may mean no trans people being born at all. I wonder how you all feel about this. My newman ex used to say he wished he had never been born.
Moreover USA and UK have laws to protect against discrimination of trans people. In Asia we dont. Add to that, if it is seen as 'defect' you may have horrific things happening to trans citizens in countries that are less accepting. At least my government works to integrate transfolks (it is a cultural thing in my land), but in other countries God knows what will happen.
I'm just saying...
Once women pick up that Transmen are much better in bed than cismen, I'll be tickled pink to see the amount of transmen suddenly appearing out of nowhere.
I think of my transfriends as different and not defective.
I can see where all you people come from. I intend on moving cities alot throughout my life, cause the area I want to work in comes with traveling alot (I want to be a truck driver). While the shame is something I agree isn't healthy...it's there. And it'll probably be there til I get at least top surgery cause that's what I'm most ashamed of cause I can't take off my shirt this summer or ever like a normal guy and that's what I'm having a hard time hiding right now cause of pec growth on T. As someone said to me before....they noticed that I identify less as queer and more as a normal guy. That's true. While I'm still not sure if I like just guys or just girls or bother (I'm pansexual)...that won't change and I'm not ashamed of who I'm attracted to at all. If I turned out to like only guys I wouldn't care. It's just my body's "queerness" that I hate and cannot stand.
I kind of know what you mean but ultimately I just want to be seen as male regardless of what journey takes me there.
I'm stealth, and i'll always stay stealth. I don't assosciate with any trans groups in my local area on at the clinic i go to. Coming on this website is about as close as i'll ever get to associating with other trans dudes, purely cause i just wanna be seen as a normal guy i dont want the trans label hovering over my head. Never have and never will.
The way I see it is that until me transition is complete, I'm a transwoman.. Once my transition is completed, I will be a woman - without any qualifiers..
I'm not on T or anything yet but I identify myself as male no matter what because saying I'm trans would remind me that I never will be biologically male. I'm 16 so if someone thinks I'm a young male and I say I'm 16 they still see me as male even when I didn't bind they still saw me as male. So I pass very very well.
I think that your wording is a bit off. I understand what you mean, but at the same time disagree that it is possible for a transman to identify as a cisman. I think that that is almost implied by being a transman that you would identify as a man and feel as though you should have been a cismale.
I think its possible to distinctly not identify with the trans part of being trans and feel you are merely a man, but that doesn't make you a "cismale"
a bit scattered... sorry...
Honestly, I've never identified with "trans". A psychologist a long time ago called me transsexual and I remember hating that label. I've always been male .. in my mind, in my mannerisms, in how I act, etc. Technically ... that is, according to the field of psychology, I guess I am transsexual, but I still reject that label. I'm ME and that me is male and always has been. Technically ... that is, according to biology, I guess some people would say I'm either female or intersex. I don't buy those labels either. In fact, I reject most any kind of label that people decide to throw on me (if I decide to put a label on myself, that's my own choice).
I know how you feel about the topic because it's not like you're dissing "trans", you know what I mean? It's like you just don't feel like it works for you. It may work perfectly well for other people and that's cool. I believe that people should be able to identify themselves - not others making the decision for them.
Every time I see this thread, I wonder if any of us can actually choose what we identify as. How much of identity is really a choice?
I also identify more as a cismale (AKA your average man) than being trans, even though I'm not through with transition. I see myself as a guy with a condition (being trans) and I'm working on correcting it the best I can. I also like to talk to others with my condition for knowledge, support and camaraderie- like any other support system.
I look at it like this... a person may have diabetes and are therefore diabetic, but most don't focus their entire identity on it. Being diabetic is part of them but doesn't define them. That's why I strive to be as stealth as possible. I want to be seen as just another guy. I know not everyone feels this way, this is just how I feel about it for me and what works for me.
Leo, I also am disgusted, uncomfortable and ashamed of my body. Changes are happening that I'm loving but there's still a long way to go. I guess I'm embarrassed about my body just like if a cisman had boobs or no penis. Don't deny he wouldn't be embarrassed or feel his body has betrayed him. I'm glad for the guys who are O.K. with it, but at this point I'm not.
I find it interesting some people think they have to erase their past or their past experiences if they go stealth. For me most of my life lessons, experiences and memories had little to do with gender. They just were. They were things and experiences that would happen to males and females.
The thing with the diabetes analogy is this..
"Identifying" as Cis would be like "identifying" as a "a person who does not have diabetes".
Quote from: Miniar on September 27, 2010, 07:09:28 PMThe thing with the diabetes analogy is this..
"Identifying" as Cis would be like "identifying" as a "a person who does not have diabetes".
Well, if a cismale spent alot of time around transmen then he might identify himselves as cis among the trans. If someone spent alot of time around diabetics and they weren't then they might think of themselves as "the non-diabetic one of the bunch". Sometimes identity shifts compared to who you're around and your company.
Quote from: Radar on September 27, 2010, 07:22:36 PM
Well, if a cismale spent alot of time around transmen then he might identify himselves as cis among the trans. If someone spent alot of time around diabetics and they weren't then they might think of themselves as "the non-diabetic one of the bunch". Sometimes identity shifts compared to who you're around and your company.
"or", you just don't identify your "self" as any one condition and just decide to be "you", warts and all.
I mean, I have long hair, but it's not my identity.
I've got fibromyalgia and probably a couple other problems too, none of those are my identity either.
I'm right handed, tall, a pet owner, a parent, etc, etc, etc,.. none of those are my identity either.
Like that, I am trans, and nothing I do will ever change that I was born with female genitals.
Can't change the past and it will forever colour my present.
So, might as well accept it, like I accept my hair, my height, my various problems, etc, etc, etc..
I'll correct what I can, better what I'm able, and so on..
but I'm not gonna go pretend I don't have diabetes. (to go back to that analogy)
Quote from: Kvall on September 27, 2010, 11:19:43 PM
The explanation I'm seeing repeated here a lot, including in the new replies after the topic was resurrected, is "I'm not a trans man, I'm just a man."
And that's fine. Not every man of trans experience is going to incorporate his transition into his identity.
But those who do are also men. So to say that you are not a trans man because you are a man, or that you are a cis man because you are a man, is f*ked up.
Agreed.
While I don't go around advertising my trans status (I pass 100% of the time) - I don't deny it either. I live in the same city, work the same job, hang out with the same people that I did before beginning HRT - so, by default, a lot of folks know that I am FTM.
This is not saying though that I don't understand guys' needing/wanting to go completely stealth post transition....I get it, I do. However, I don't understand needing to attach "cis" to male identity as if to infer authenticity.
But I say, go ahead, embrace your identity,whether it's
man, dude, guy, ftm, f2m, transman, transguy, ->-bleeped-<-boi - regardless of the how you choose to ID, the phrasing doesn't make you any less male.
I'm a dude. I have been mistaken for a girl innumerable times, so much that I even fooled myself into believing I was one or could be one. I'm a dude, even when wearing a dress, even with ribbons in my hair, even when being called she. I'm a dude with no peen and I don't particularly mind that, though my unusually large chest is disturbing, and so is my enlargened hips.
Maybe I'm a trans dude, but most of all I'm a dude. A teenager, a nerd, one of those black-clad types in stompy boots. A person with AS. A nutjob with a weird outlook and a weird body.
I am me, the dude who chills out in his morningrobe all day (or would, if he had the choice).
For the most part I don't even think about being trans any more. I'm me. Though I get enough reminders every day when my kids call me Mom, a coworker she's me, my mother calls me Birthname, etc.
Yes, I may have grown up in a girl body and was treated and socialized as a girl, but I never was a girl. I was climbing trees with the neighbor boys, hanging out in the dairy barn down the street with the cows, catching frogs, etc. As I got older I was acutely aware of the missing bits and was horrified/embarrassed about it. Teen years sucked. As an adult I forced myself to be as feminine as I could, but still couldn't do jewelry and makeup and heels and dresses.... Bleh. But I did marry and have children, no regrets there.
I'm post op everything now, no longer have issues with my bits. I'm a dude with a very small penis. And I'm not alone. The only reminder is the one remaining slow-to-heal area which has shrunk by >50% this last week, so almost there! Can't wait to not have to be reminded that I had surgery down there.
Jay
Quote from: Kvall on September 27, 2010, 11:19:43 PM
The explanation I'm seeing repeated here a lot, including in the new replies after the topic was resurrected, is "I'm not a trans man, I'm just a man."
And that's fine. Not every man of trans experience is going to incorporate his transition into his identity.
But those who do are also men. So to say that you are not a trans man because you are a man, or that you are a cis man because you are a man, is f*ked up. Trans men can be average men. Trans men can be typical, masculine guys. Cis men can be flamboyant. They can be atypical and feminine.
'Man' is big enough to include cis men and trans men both. If you just identify as a man, that's cool, but it doesn't of its own accord make you cis, because nothing about 'man' requires being cis.
I am a man and I am a trans man. The latter implies the former.
I agree with you as well!
To suggest that "Trans" makes you less male/female is just rude, even when we do it to ourselves!
Quit doing it plz.
Quote from: sneakersjay on September 28, 2010, 06:18:10 AM
For the most part I don't even think about being trans any more. I'm me. Though I get enough reminders every day when my kids call me Mom, a coworker she's me, my mother calls me Birthname, etc.
Yes, I may have grown up in a girl body and was treated and socialized as a girl, but I never was a girl. I was climbing trees with the neighbor boys, hanging out in the dairy barn down the street with the cows, catching frogs, etc. As I got older I was acutely aware of the missing bits and was horrified/embarrassed about it. Teen years sucked. As an adult I forced myself to be as feminine as I could, but still couldn't do jewelry and makeup and heels and dresses.... Bleh. But I did marry and have children, no regrets there.
I'm post op everything now, no longer have issues with my bits. I'm a dude with a very small penis. And I'm not alone. The only reminder is the one remaining slow-to-heal area which has shrunk by >50% this last week, so almost there! Can't wait to not have to be reminded that I had surgery down there.
Jay
Damn dude, I hope somewhere to be where you are.
Since I posted this I've become less obsessed with "OMG, i'm trans." The longer I'm on T, the less it dominates my every thought. I forget I'm trans sometimes now, and that's amazing to me. I still dont' openly admit it, but with my name change 2 days away I feel like I'm that much closer to putting the past behind me and moving in into my new life. It doesn't matter what I am. I just am. And that alone, is amazing.
Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on September 28, 2010, 08:10:52 AM
Damn dude, I hope somewhere to be where you are.
You'll get there! And you're less than half my age, so you'll get to enjoy it more!
Jay
Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on September 28, 2010, 08:15:05 AMI forget I'm trans sometimes now, and that's amazing to me.
I get like that too.
Perhaps I should clear some things. When I refer to myself as feeling like a cisguy I mean more that I'm just another guy and nothing "special".
I've learned that many (if not most) people see us as "special"- both good and bad. I don't want that. I don't want to be seen as special, or brave for transitioning (I've heard this several times), or excluded from a group for being trans, or mocked or even beat up and raped (it happens).
I just want to be seen as a "non-special" guy. I want people to know me for my thoughts, actions, beliefs and personality- not be obsessed with the gender I was born as or continually question my masculinity.
So, for me, being stealth when I can is important. Being trans does not make you less of a man at all. However, many people out there believe this. We all suffer from ignorance, stereotypes, close-minded people and hatred because of being trans. Is it such a crime to try and make life easier?
I realize that where people live can affect their mindset too. If you live in a country or state that is open-minded and trans people are protected it makes things easier. If you live in a conservative area where trans people aren't protected at all and have few rights- that affects your life and mindset too.
Quote from: Radar on September 30, 2010, 04:31:22 PM
I get like that too.
Perhaps I should clear some things. When I refer to myself as feeling like a cisguy I mean more that I'm just another guy and nothing "special".
I've learned that many (if not most) people see us as "special"- both good and bad. I don't want that. I don't want to be seen as special, or brave for transitioning (I've heard this several times), or excluded from a group for being trans, or mocked or even beat up and raped (it happens).
I just want to be seen as a "non-special" guy. I want people to know me for my thoughts, actions, beliefs and personality- not be obsessed with the gender I was born as or continually question my masculinity.
So, for me, being stealth when I can is important. Being trans does not make you less of a man at all. However, many people out there believe this. We all suffer from ignorance, stereotypes, close-minded people and hatred because of being trans. Is it such a crime to try and make life easier?
I realize that where people live can affect their mindset too. If you live in a country or state that is open-minded and trans people are protected it makes things easier. If you live in a conservative area where trans people aren't protected at all and have few rights- that affects your life and mindset too.
Yeah I feel this way too - you made some good points there.
Also, there's many reasons to want to be "stealth".
I've been on t for almost 1 year, i've had chest surgery, my name is changed, my license is changed, I've done everything I can besides my bottom surgery. Of course I am trans, and i'm not ashamed of it, but I am a guy. I introduce myself as male, i fill my papers out as male, I use the mens restroom. I will always support the trans community, be an activist, & do whatever i can to educate. But in my everyday life i dont live as "trans" I live as a man.
Well...my name is officially changed. I can now apply for a job and not need them to ever know I'm trans. It feels amazing.....
Since this morning when I was officially legal, I felt like I'm somewhat less threatened now. If people know, they know. I don't out myself willingly. But if people look at my ID now they won't know...and somehow that makes me feel alot better. No one can prove it unless they strip me naked....which isn't happening in mixed company. Lol.
I am simply a "male."
And yes, it is irritating that people insist on rubbing my nose in the trans deal. "Well, you're not really a man." That is only in a couple ways, and in ways you'll never know me. The ones who feel the need to bring it up are ones who it never affects anyway.
Yeah, when people press it I simply say I'm male. Nothing else. If they ask if I'm trans and they're a random stranger or someone I don't really know, I say I'm not. For my safety...and stuff. It's none of their business.
If you are pretty much complete and live your fixed life comfortably then you are just another male.
You did this, not to be a different type of male but to be a male, were technology a bit better and you had it all too but that's not for now.
Point is, you got to a state that everyone sees you and who you are and probably so do you, if you want to tell someone then tell them but it doesn't make you less of a male.
So for me you are cis-male, DNA doesn't matter because we alerted the body function and it is not working by what DNA tells it anymore, it is therefore irrelevant and even more because nobody knows it anyways.
Oh and an XX male with y deciding gene (yes it is a gene, not a chromosome) or an XY female without it is no less male or female than the rest, why should you?
I personally, even being pre-everything, identify as cis male. I just have a few birth defects that I gotta clear up :( but I'm all male. That's just me, everyone's different.
Quote from: Myself on September 30, 2010, 10:42:34 PM...DNA doesn't matter because we alerted the body function and it is not working by what DNA tells it anymore, it is therefore irrelevant and even more because nobody knows it anyways.
Oh and an XX male with y deciding gene (yes it is a gene, not a chromosome) or an XY female without it is no less male or female than the rest, why should you?
This reminds me of an interesting article I read. For whatever reason (don't remember) a college student got blood tests done and one of them was for DNA testing. She was found to have an XY chromosome. She had all her female organs and they functioned properly, wasn't intersexed and didn't even identify as trans. She was crushed and crying believing that made her not a "real" woman. They told her it was a strange "fluke" in nature but it didn't make her any less female. So, it appears we can't even completely go off sex chromosomes anymore.
Quote from: j83 on July 22, 2010, 01:01:40 PM
I'm stealth, and i'll always stay stealth. I don't assosciate with any trans groups in my local area on at the clinic i go to. Coming on this website is about as close as i'll ever get to associating with other trans dudes, purely cause i just wanna be seen as a normal guy i dont want the trans label hovering over my head. Never have and never will.
i agree with this
Quote from: gilligan on July 19, 2010, 08:38:23 PM
I laughed at the pun.
but it is true, you'll never be a cismale, you have grown up as a girl and had different experiences than cis-guys. you can try and hide it, but to some extent you'll always have the transman experiences in you. these experiences tend to shape people's values/beliefs.
I didn't grow up as a girl. I grew up as a boy whom most people thought to be a girl. I was socialized as a boy despite the best efforts of those around me. The more I reflect, the more certain I become that I was never socialized as a girl - people tried, but it just didn't take. I was a boy.
And I don't buy the "different experiences" line. Every boy has different experiences growing up. Hell, there are XY men like David Reimer whose parents actually attempted to raise them as girls, just like me (actually, his upbringing was way, way more explicitly and rigidly gendered than mine). There are boys whose parents do everything physically in their power to raise them in a gender-neutral home. On the other side, there are girls (as we recently learned on the news) in Afghanistan who are raised and treated as boys. They're not boys, or trans women, or anything but simply women with unusual upbringings. And David Reimer was simply a man with a horribly abusive childhood and very sad medical history.
Will my childhood experiences of occasionally wearing dresses without being targeted by homophobia (other than the internal kind) always be a part of me? Sure. Does that make me permanently, irrevocably different from other men? Nope. The only thing that does that is my genitalia. So I'll never be cis - but that has nothing whatsoever to do with my childhood experiences.
Quote from: kyril on October 04, 2010, 01:43:22 AM
I didn't grow up as a girl. I grew up as a boy whom most people thought to be a girl. I was socialized as a boy despite the best efforts of those around me. The more I reflect, the more certain I become that I was never socialized as a girl - people tried, but it just didn't take. I was a boy.
Will my childhood experiences of occasionally wearing dresses without being targeted by homophobia (other than the internal kind) always be a part of me? Sure. Does that make me permanently, irrevocably different from other men? Nope.
Totally agree with this because it was the same for me growing up. There was the rare occasion my mom attempted to dress me like a little girl but other than that everyone (until they were told different) thought I was a boy.
Yeah errr.....I never was and never will be that F word. Wasn't socialized as that. Hell, I wasn't even socialized til I transitioned...
I like that comment about not going by chromosomes....that's awesome.
Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on October 05, 2010, 06:37:25 AMI like that comment about not going by chromosomes....that's awesome.
I found it a very interesting article. I don't know if this is a fluke of nature or if it happens more than we think. I stumbled across this article while reading science magazines.
Another thought on chromosomes. From an evolutionary timeframe the Y chromosome is new. Before it
both males and females had XX chromosomes. These weren't hermaphroditic animals either- they were completely male or completely female and reproduced strictly sexually. A mutation happened of some kind that formed the Y chromosome. Scientists are now saying that they believe the Y chromosome will fade out- perhaps within 500 years.
I'm not sure about that but there is a good chance the Y chromosome will eventually disappear. My guess on how an XX creature could become male or female depends on the FoxL2 gene switched off during gestation.
Many animals today can change genders after being born- like some fish and reptiles. Usually it's when there's no males within an isolated group of females so the Alpha female transforms into a male that can reproduce.
The more science learns it seems the more fluid and variant gender can be. There seems to be no absolutes. :)
I know this topic has been posted before but here's a link to the FoxL2/Sox9 genes tests.
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2009-12/gene-switch-transforms-adult-female-mice-males (http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2009-12/gene-switch-transforms-adult-female-mice-males)
Why i do not identify as trans.....
When I first came to realize that I was male, but my body was female, I was around the age of 4. I hadn't heard the term trans, transsexual, transgendered, transperson or anything trans. But I still identified as a male, but hade a female body. The trans word did not exist for me, but my feelings where still very real.
When I was twelve I read an article in a magazine, I read about a guy who had the exact same feelings as I did. He also was male, but whit a female body.
The response he got was that he was probably a transsexual. Even though I didn't know what a transsexual was, I could relate to every aspect of this guy's story. So if the professionals thought that he was transsexual, well then I thought I must be a transsexual also. Even though I never felt like a transsexual before, just a man. The professionals surly must know best.
Now, 24 years after reading the article, I see that I never felt like a transsexual, transgendered, or trans anything. My initial feeling was that I was a man in a female body. It was only when the professional said that I was transsexual, that I thought they must be right
.
My point is, I never saw myself as a trans anything, before someone told me that, that is what you are. So through the eyes of others, I may be trans..., but in my eyes I never was. I am only a boy, born in a girl's body.
And you know what, it's actually possible not to be stealth, and at the same time, not identifying as trans. I have been open about my history as long as I can remember, no shame, no longer. And I can easily explain to people what I have gone through without using any trans words. But I must admit that I sometimes use the diagnosis name, transsexualism. But that Is because that is what the diagnose is called. The trans term is put out there by the professionals, not by us.
I don't intend on identifying as a cis male. I will just identify as male and that's just fine. To me cis male is just a sub division of male. For example you can have white males, black, males, hispanic mailes, Indian males, Asian males, rich males, poor males, tall males, short males, fat males, fit males, gay males, straight males, etc. and the list goes on. I just say that I am a male whose body is contoured to that of which is a biological female.
There's already a recent post on this subject entitled something like "I don't identify as transsexual" so you didn't need to bump it. Not tryin to be rude but just saying it's annoying when posts are unnecessarily revived from 2010. It gets really convoluted.
Quote from: poptart on March 19, 2012, 03:54:47 AM
There's already a recent post on this subject entitled something like "I don't identify as transsexual" so you didn't need to bump it. Not tryin to be rude but just saying it's annoying when posts are unnecessarily revived from 2010. It gets really convoluted.
Sorry it's annoying you. Knowing me I'll probably post in the "I don't identify as transsexual" topic when it's 2013. :D