You know, it's funny, really. I have experienced more discrimination, intolerance, from the gay community than the straight community. I feel at times they feel we betray them in our changing our physical to match are mental. My best friend, you're average white european man, with redneck tendencies, and humor, I recently told I am in fact biologically female. He is also my employer at a drywall company, and we're both volunteer firefighters in a rural community, wyoming. He accepted me, and appreciates me all the more. Many gay women, who mainstream society would assume liberal, open minded, accepting(same could be said for transgender women and gay men), are unhappy with, judgemental of people like us.
I don't get it. Wyoming rednecks are more open minded than the liberal LA gay folk I used to room with. What is the deal?
It's like that many places I'm afraid.
For some reason the LGB people either don't like us, don't agree with us, or are afraid of us. I don't get it but thats how it seems to be.
I remember a while back on the Tyra Show, they did an episode about the "Gay Kingdom" where they had a feminine lesbian, butch lesbian, feminine gay, masculine gay, drag queen, bisexual man, and a transgendered woman. The worst judgments came from the feminine lesbian and masculine gay, and the worst of their judgments were directed towards the bisexual.
From what I have seen, people just plain can't get along. There is an excuse for turning anyone into the bad guy. On this show, it showed excellent examples of the hostility the LGBT community has for its other members. The feminine lesbian and masculine gay were accused of "trying to act like their straight counterparts", the feminine gay was accused of being the cause of all negative stereotypes about gay men, the transgender was told that she didn't belong with them, and the bisexual was told that he was wither confused about what he wanted or that he was just a closeted gay.
Frankly, I think it's all crap. People need to find a scapegoat to blame for all of the discrimination the whole community gets.
Generally, straight people don't pick favourites because they aren't as personally involved.
There was a gay guy who said I couldn't be transgendered because I don't look male or act male. And then I kept getting called "she" by another gay guy because I, again, don't look male. I'm so sorry I can't transition right now or look even remotely what I want to look like (/sarcasm). But my new friend has no issued calling me 'he' from what I can see, which makes me happy.
Straight people I've told have been more likely to be nice to me and believe me than anyone else I've met.
I can't figure it out, and it's pretty irritating to go to a group for assistance and not be believed.
It does seem to be somewhat of a phenomenon... But it is something I've noticed in the past even before deciding to transition
I've noticed that many (not all) gay guys don't like us and are even harsher about it than straight guys
Most lesbians have been rather nice to me though
It all gets so confusing... You don't want to be a separatist but you also wonder why you're roped in with other groups that don't seem to like you
This is my experience, also. Among liberals, I find a great deal of virulent hatred and slander toward any number of groups, including transsexuals. The most snide and catty remarks I've ever heard were by homosexual males in Seattle, and by far the most directly hateful and angry were from lesbians in the same place. When I mentioned transsexuality among some straight liberals, once, they made it into a topic of disgusted humor.
Among the right-wing folks, such things don't come up. It's simply not appropriate conversation; many of us may be gay and a few my be trans, but those are strictly private matters and outside of the public sphere. We discuss the constitution, our businesses, candidates, platforms, kids, guns, trucks, chicks, and so forth, but we don't discuss other people's sex lives.
Even when one fellow made out with some guys when drunk, only his friends could tease him and it always in a friendly manner.
- N
Quote from: greginprogress on July 24, 2010, 05:59:24 PMYou know, it's funny, really. I have experienced more discrimination, intolerance, from the gay community than the straight community....../
I don't get it. Wyoming rednecks are more open minded than the liberal LA gay folk I used to room with. What is the deal?
Doesn't surprise me. This was one reason why I moved away from big city.
In small town people may be intolerant, and gossiping, and know each others things, but it is different from big city intolerance. There is more human kindness. Big city ideas are often artificial..
I think it's the same old same old. Gay people understand TG people as much as 'straight' people do.
So what do you expect? Do TG people accept/reject racism? Ageism? Religious intolerance? Just because we are rejects doesn't change our opinions about rejecting others. So why do we expect Gays to accept us?
Cindy
I think a lot of it is fear. People react against what they fear they may become or indeed what they fear others may mistake them for.
For a long time, when I was in stealth the first time (in the years prior to 1988), I was not a very nice person when it came to cross-dressers, but looking back it said more about my insecurity in my own identity than it did about them. I wish I could go back and apologise to one or two people for my rather separatist attitudes.
I've always been lucky with gay and lesbian people - even being bisexual as well as trans hasn't proved a barrier to many firm and lasting friendships. I think its because these days I am naturally very relaxed I am happy to feel included in whatever group I'm with and I don't feel the need to define myself too rigidly. Heck I don't in any way regard myself as male, but if someone really wanted to see me that way, as long as they are aware of and acknowledge the physical differences that I now have, I'd let them do it, because I'd rather be friendly than hostile.
Upshot because I let people make up their own minds no one really sees me as a threat, and there are many people in our local community with whom I am great friends who I know normally wouldn't go within a million miles of something like this. I see that as an opportunity to be an ambassador. Yeah sometimes it can involve compromise, but it is worth it in the long run.
Hmmmm... Not surprising really. Unless you are gay or lesbian we don't belong in their group/community. From a TS standpoint, the only common denominator is that we have both been discriminated, persecuted, and harassed, that doesn't make us the same. I was very active in the queer community here where I live for several years (The Queens University Association of Queer Employees) and while I didn't experience any hostility I didn't experience acceptance either. I finally realized that I didn't belong as I wasn't gay or lesbian so I bid them farewell.
As others have pointed out, they no more understand our issues than straight people do so why associate ourselves with them. I would love to meet the dope who desided that it would be great to add the "T" to their group, I doubt that they asked the queers or those that are Transsexual. May be it's because they are queer for life and we are only TS while we transition, then for the most part we vanish. They have their issues and we have ours, don't waste your time.
-={LR}=-
I'm not surprised at all actually. I read a magzine article about apartheid era South Africa, where the writer found one of the worst racists he interviewed was a white lesbian.
As Nimeton said, for a conservative person some things are private and not something that one should pry into.
Greg your town sounds like the one in the local movie "Strange Bedfellows." (Good for a laugh)
I've seen this in the LGBT community a lot too. So far, I haven't experienced much personally, but I'm not really out fully yet either. I think the worst I've seen it is when a lesbian comes out as Trans. I've met a few F2M men in the past 6 months, and 2 or 3 have had issues where they were previously very involved in the lesbian community, and decided that they had to leave it due to the hate that they found there. Very sad. :(
Me and some friends were queuing for G.A.Y in London (now called 'Omo - which is an even better name) and the people in front of us went through this huge list of people they hated - and all the people around them agreed.
They hated:
Lesbians
Transsexuals
Transgenders
Straight People
Hairy People
Fat People
Poor People - in fact they really hated poor people.
Anyone who lives in an estates.
Northerners
Foreigners (except the occasional Aussie or Yank)
- Especially asians, black people and white South Africans
People who live in villages.
People who live in small towns
People who live in big towns
People who live in North West or South East London
Gingers
Women in general.
People with Devon, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Glaswegian, Nottingham, Sussex, Essex etc accents (Basically, they liked posh, some Scottish and Irish)
etc...etc...etc.. I have never seen a prouder or more comprehensive display of intolerance.
Quote from: Pica Pica on August 10, 2010, 05:28:06 PM
Me and some friends were queuing for G.A.Y in London (now called 'Omo - which is an even better name) and the people in front of us went through this huge list of people they hated - and all the people around them agreed.
They hated:
Lesbians
Transsexuals
Transgenders
Straight People
Hairy People
Fat People
Poor People - in fact they really hated poor people.
Anyone who lives in an estates.
Northerners
Foreigners (except the occasional Aussie or Yank)
- Especially asians, black people and white South Africans
People who live in villages.
People who live in small towns
People who live in big towns
People who live in North West or South East London
Gingers
Women in general.
People with Devon, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Glaswegian, Nottingham, Sussex, Essex etc accents (Basically, they liked posh, some Scottish and Irish)
etc...etc...etc.. I have never seen a prouder or more comprehensive display of intolerance.
OMGoodness... That is quite the hater list... And these were Gay guys?
Quote from: Virginia Marie on August 10, 2010, 05:34:22 PM
OMGoodness... That is quite the hater list... And these were Gay guys?
That's normal, from my experience. I used to live in the gay ghetto of my city, and regularly heard similar expressions of disgust. I've never actually stood witness to a comprehensive enumeration of objects, though.
- N
It was a long queue and one object of dislike led to another...it got quite enthusiastic at the end.
For some reason, I just think GLB peeps are more open about it when they do it. There is a name for it that I forget, and studies that show people who have been villified are quick to turn on others and give them the same treatment, especially after they have recently been accepted and are no longer villified. I t happens with fraternity classes that were pledges the year before, being the most eager to haze the newcomers. A lot of people are blaming the mormons for prop 8, but the numbers show it was blacks and hispanics in CA that really pushed it through. And there have been studies in children too. There's a video out there, but I can't remember the name of it.
EDIT (part 3 is key):
Documentary -- Eye of the Storm from 1970 -- Part 1 -- Jane Elliot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IilULqX1bY&feature=related#)
Eye of the Storm -- Part 2 from 1970 (Documtary) -- Jane EllIot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp2DHwxKAK0&feature=watch_response#)
Eye of the Storm Part 3 -- Jane Elliot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43-QAvekTpU&feature=watch_response#)
Quote from: glendagladwitch on August 10, 2010, 06:18:18 PM
For some reason, I just think GLB peeps are more open about it when they do it. There is a name for it that I forget, and studies that show people who have been villified are quick to turn on others and give them the same treatment, especially after they have recently been accepted and are no longer villified. I t happens with fraternity classes that were pledges the year before, being the most eager to haze the newcomers. A lot of people are blaming the mormons for prop 8, but the numbers show it was blacks and hispanics in CA that really pushed it through. And there have been studies in children too. There's a video out there, but I can't remember the name of it.
EDIT (part 3 is key):
Documentary -- Eye of the Storm from 1970 -- Part 1 -- Jane Elliot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IilULqX1bY&feature=related#)
Eye of the Storm -- Part 2 from 1970 (Documtary) -- Jane EllIot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp2DHwxKAK0&feature=watch_response#)
Eye of the Storm Part 3 -- Jane Elliot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43-QAvekTpU&feature=watch_response#)
Human mind is one weird place, isn't it?
Isn't that some form of Behavioral psychology?
:PFirst off, great comments !!!!!!!!! I kid ya not , I feel anything I say at this point will get censored by moderators as my experence comes from the former church I was accociated with. I would LOVE to tell ya'all what church that was too. First , I got it from gay men cause I told everyone I wasn't there to "Date " ANYBODY PERIOD ! I was looked upon as a threat by Gay women cause I "Dressed better than them ", I swear , I can't make this up either ! Further, I get it from several of these people at a Lesbian Bar that we all go to on account of me just wanting to re arange my genitailia . So what children, so what ? It's my body, go else where meat market fool . I have a life and so do you . I don't tel you what or how to run yer life , now reun yers , not mine , thank you and now back to regularly sceduled programming ........... ellen :angel:
I don't understand why all this squabbling and intolerance happens in the first place. Not only is it happening from gays towards trans people but I've seen it within the trans community as well. I believe most of the intolerance actually stems from personal insecurities. In other words, someone has a problem accepting someone else because they really can't accept themselves. Within the trans community I have seen cross-dressers not understanding transsexuals and visa versa, non-ops, pre-ops, and post-ops butting heads, and MTFs trying to decide for other MTFs whether or not they are actually considered women.
Another type of discrimination that I've observed is the way transwomen are treated compared to ciswomen. Just a couple of nights ago I was in a GLBT bar and a guy I didn't even know grabbed my left breast (which was actually just a padded bra). I told him to take his hand off immediately. He gave me a somewhat arrogant look and I then grabbed his arm and forcefully removed it. I then gave him a final warning that he is not to ever touch me again. Not long after he was removed from the club by the manager and security due to some other complaint. Now these things can and do happen in any place when you have a bunch of stupid drunks crowded in a small room together. However, I don't believe this is near as common or tolerated against ciswomen as it is towards transwomen. In most cases if a man grabbed a ciswoman's breast in a straight bar, she would probably punch him in the face, a couple other guys would also probably hit him, he'd be immediately escorted out, the police would be called, and he probably would be arrested. In a GLBT venue grabbing boobs and other parts of the body without permission is much more tolerated.
This only proves one thing: that we are not as respected. I have not yet gone to a straight bar presenting female but I have trans friends who have. My guess is that if you do pass well you are not likely to get this type of treatment. If you pass poorly then the guys may give you some stares, maybe some side comments, but they otherwise will leave you alone as they aren't attracted to you. I'm discussing reasonably normal nightclubs of course here as dangerous dive bars could be an entirely different story. I think a lot of the gay male community sees us as sex objects. Otherwise, they would be treating us as women and not "chicks with d*cks." This is a sad and disturbing trend. A lot of gays and lesbians also have a problem accepting bisexuals. It is all just nonsense.
I just want to say that this hasn't been my experience and my gay friends and new acquaintances have been incredibly accepting. I do hang out mostly with some very political gays, so they're more trans-aware than your average gay clubgoer, but I haven't had a problem with the clubgoers either.
Mots of the LGB people I knew in high school and college were accepting of trans people. The few who weren't seemed insecure about their own identities.
However I wouldn't feel comfortable coming out to the older gay guys I know in the small town where I live now. A lot of them have a narrow definition of what is acceptable and are quick to write off anyone or anything that doesn't conform to their standards. The younger gay people here seem a lot more open-minded, though.
Quote from: Britney_413 on September 06, 2010, 02:34:56 AM
In most cases if a man grabbed a ciswoman's breast in a straight bar, she would probably punch him in the face, a couple other guys would also probably hit him, he'd be immediately escorted out, the police would be called, and he probably would be arrested. In a GLBT venue grabbing boobs and other parts of the body without permission is much more tolerated.
I actually have to disagree with you to an extent. Being someone who was raised by people who expected me to be female forever I was taught many many things about how to assume men will treat you as a woman. One of the biggest issues is a lack of respect when it comes to places like bars (although I too have noticed this lack of respect seems to be higher in gay bars regardless of rather or not you're a transwoman or a ciswoman). It is to be expected that a man will grab you, touch you, rub on you on the dance floor, whatever. It is always advised to go with groups of friends and very rarely do you ever see young women go out to bars without a friend or two or even a boyfriend in tow. This is one of the reasons why you see that! It isn't just about going out and having fun, people can go to a bar alone and have fun drinking and dancing, it's about protection.
I think it is worse in gay bars though, even in the gay community here I see many many men who think it is okay to grab women without permission. Hell they even grab my breast sometimes, and this comes from men who are my friends who I KNOW have no issue with my identity... it is merely a joke to them. Not a joke because it bothers me, it is a joke regardless of how I react.
It's some kind of creepy inner circle thing we missed out on lol.
I don't know if I even made my point in this post or not. Basics are I agree but I disagree, I think it's more common than you may feel it is for a ciswoman to be in this exact same situation with no help from strangers or the men nearby unless she happens to be with friends or be a regular in the place.
I also forgot to mention one other difference is that ciswomen are taught that this behavior is to be expected from straight men. They often don't complain about being groped or touched in places like bars because it is simply how it is. When you are taught to expect it you react to it differently. People who were raised female in our society are taught early on the expression, "Boys will be boys." And sadly this expression is still used to describe adult males as those women get older.
I'd like to echo a lot of what Cowboi said about straight men in straight bars.
As far as gay men in gay bars and clubs...well, unlike in the straight places, it's not just the women they're feeling up. In fact, it's not even mostly the women. Gay bars and clubs are places where there is a...relaxation of personal boundaries, especially among men. They're oases of sorts for gay men in a homophobic culture where men have very little physical contact with anybody outside of contact sports and sexual relationships.
It has to be understood that gay clubs are men's space - specifically gay men's space (nearly all other men's spaces in existence are for hetero men). They're analogous to (though nothing like) women's spaces. Unlike women's spaces, gay bars that aren't sex clubs don't usually turn away people born with the wrong genitalia. But they're created for gay men, by gay men, to fill a specific need - a need for a certain type of safety that is analogous to (though, again, not at all similar to) the safety women seek in women's spaces. Part of that is the need to feel safe touching other people and being touched. And so the unwritten rules of touch in a gay bar are drastically different from the rules of touch on the street or in a hetero space.
I'm not saying this doesn't happen in straight bars and clearly it does. It just seems like it is more common in gay bars and more tolerated there. There is an increasing cultural problem in the U.S. in my opinion where there is less discretion being used by people. In other words, people are supposed to know how to act around certain people at certain times and in certain places. This is becoming less common. First and foremost, you don't go around touching people without their permission, period. It can start a fight or get you thrown in jail. Generally increased touching goes with increased familiarity. If you don't know someone at all then you start by shaking their hand. As you get to know them better then maybe a pat on the back is fine. Then it might progress to a quick hug or side hug. Only if you two know each other well and are comfortable with it is a cheek kiss fine, a solid hug, or things of that nature.
Anything more in my opinion is something reserved for people who are dating and generally doesn't belong in a public place. You don't go around grabbing breasts, butts, or crotches in public places including bars. Not only is it crude behavior, it is illegal. I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would walk up to a complete stranger they have never had an interaction with in their life and just kiss or grab them in in an inappropraite place. I try to avoid fights but when this does happen to me I do grab their arm and remove it quickly and give them a stern warning to never touch me again. Should it continue, I'm bashing them in the face and probably kicking them in the crotch. I don't care if these gay bars are "safe zones" to keep out homophobia. That doesn't mean everyone who walks in the door is consenting to be touched. I have no problem suing a place that allows it if it happens to me and I have no problem reporting such venues to the liquor board and other regulatory agencies. It is criminal behavior, plain and simple.
Quote from: Nimetön on July 24, 2010, 08:35:48 PM
This is my experience, also. Among liberals, I find a great deal of virulent hatred and slander toward any number of groups, including transsexuals. The most snide and catty remarks I've ever heard were by homosexual males in Seattle, and by far the most directly hateful and angry were from lesbians in the same place. When I mentioned transsexuality among some straight liberals, once, they made it into a topic of disgusted humor.
Among the right-wing folks, such things don't come up. It's simply not appropriate conversation; many of us may be gay and a few my be trans, but those are strictly private matters and outside of the public sphere. We discuss the constitution, our businesses, candidates, platforms, kids, guns, trucks, chicks, and so forth, but we don't discuss other people's sex lives.
Even when one fellow made out with some guys when drunk, only his friends could tease him and it always in a friendly manner.
- N
I attended the Transunited New England march and rally this weekend... Funny... I didn't see any conservatives.... I did, however, hear a stirring speech by Bet Power, speaking out against the oppression sought by the religious right wing. I suggest that Republican Transsexuals are delusional. Ugh!!!
Bet Power Speaks at the 2010 Northampton Trans Pride Rally (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8DpHe6uXhY#)
QuoteI suggest that Republican Transsexuals are delusional. Ugh!!!
Republican and Conservative are not the same thing. The south was democratic and wants government help but has Conservative values. It only votes republican because they were sold out by the Democrats with the civil rights laws. The north is very much pro big business but was sold out by the republicans when they went to Conservative values.
Well, anyone who thinks that GLB people aren't at least as intolerant of T people as straight people can be should google Janice Raymond. She's a prominent lesbian feminist scholar and university professor who wrote, "All transsexuals rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves .... Transsexuals merely cut off the most obvious means of invading women, so that they seem non-invasive."
Monica Roberts has pointed out Raymond's influence among senior staff at HRC, and HRC's Executive Director Elizabeth Birch's virulent opposition in 1995 to trans inclusion in ENDA: http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/3229/ (http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/3229/)
Also remember that trans women were not allowed to go the Michigan Womyn's Music festival until 2006: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Trans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Trans)
There's something ironic about feminists complaining about "male privilege," and then witholding "female privilege" from tras women.
And of course, I think we've all seen Dirt's prejudice against trans men.
I know this evidence is all one sided in that it makes lesbians look worse than gays, but I've heard gays say some horrible, horrible things, and seen them discriminate agaisnt trans people in employment.
I'm not saying GLB people are worse than the "straights," but the prejudice and hatred are out there in the GLB community. I hope none of you have to encounter it directly.
I think Janice Raymond has done more to discredit the field of Philosophy for me than anyone else.
If you want to make sweeping assertions about a group of people, you'd better have some meticulous research behind it or I will think you're a crackpot, and she's a crackpot. I assume the feminists swallowed her drivel out of ignorance, but that's a charitable interpretation.
Anyway, having just gotten here, I won't say how much Janice Raymond's spouting being taken seriously at all by anyone offends me...I'd rather not like to get the boot for cussing profusely. >:-)
Look, transwomen make natural feminists, having been treated as male when younger. When they start presenting as female, they start getting treated as subtly less. Because that's not their initial social climate, they see it even more clearly than born women do, and they don't like it at all.
At least that's what my wife tells me. Besides that, it makes sense to me. If it doesn't make sense to you, please feel free to tell me off.
(reason for edit-the visit of the typo fairy)
Quote from: Nimetön on August 10, 2010, 05:44:59 PM
That's normal, from my experience. I used to live in the gay ghetto of my city, and regularly heard similar expressions of disgust. I've never actually stood witness to a comprehensive enumeration of objects, though.
- N
Whatever they are, with a hater list like that or ghetto bangers residence... none of them that agree with that discrimination are gay.
That is just evident of how such groupies ruin it for those who are gay. Those kind of groupies try to argue with people to make the word "gay" mean something other than what it originally meant.
I went into a bar the other night. My friend told me it was a gay bar and wanted to check it out. I went in with her, and quickly found they didn't like me because I was too gay and too femme. With a poster labeled F.A.G.... I quickly got the hint I should leave. I respected this difference.
Every straight person I've told has accepted me. The Bisexual people have accepted me. This boy who is gay at my school doesn't say anything but him and this lesbian girl were talking about me in the back. The lesbian girl once told me "If you have sex with a girl, I don't care if you're transgender or not then it's still lesbian sex" and that ripped me up really bad. I thought they would be the accepting ones but they're not :(
I've been really ticked about this more than anything recently. Like I've said, it's more about the L and the G and forget about the B and the T. I swear I'm losing faith in humanity.
It amazes me how redundant the world truly is. We fought a civil war to free black slaves.....No figure. Why can't everyone simply see that was wrong from the start. So many people claim to be religious yet the most simple rule is overlooked, " Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself." We all want acceptance. Yet in the same breath refuse acceptance to others.
It takes so long for the world to see what is right. It wasn't until the 60's that blacks were integrated into schools. This is 100 yrs after the civil war. I only use this as an example to show how incompetant, slow, mentally challenged the world can be. The same slow inadequate unfair treatment is happening to the LGBT community. Information, acceptance, and aid should be afforded to all equally. No matter who you are, what nationality, what religion, color, sex, or what your sex preference is. Though several different types of people are combined in the term LGBT, acceptance of eachother is key. If we all treated eachother the way we wanted to be treated it would be so awesome. At best we can be the example to pave the road for others.