I was an early adopter to figure out that things were not quite as they should be for me.... I'd say pre 6 years old....defo...
And I knew it was never a lifestyle choice (sic)..... I think we're (collectively) well overdue being removed from the DSM-IV listings...as I think it wrong and inaccurate to class gender dysphoria a mental disorder...??
A condition (yes)....brain sex anomaly....(yes)...but are we loonies...(no)
For me a revelatory moment was last year my mother's candid admission stating that she suffered very badly as did my Pa with Asian flu....during her early pregnancy...
(I tried to feign no surprise she'd never mentioned this before)
This would have been in 1957 as I was born finally spring 58....so it would be interesting to know if transgender cases are linked to a greater study of prevalence v other external influences... like viral epidemics...
Much like the swine flu pandemic a year or so back... if more cases of TG births are now logged as a consequence?
I'm also slightly dyslexic, something which a few others on her fess up to....maybe this is another linked factor?
So perhaps there will be one day a link proved betwixt a mother's immune system and its impact on foetal development, including gender identity....?
So my question: ?
Do you know if your mother's pregnancy was complication free...presuming she can still remember...?
Will be interesting to hear your thoughts on this one...
My mother's pregnancy wasn't complication free because she wasn't even supposed to be able to get pregnant in the first place. She had plenty of physical problems, but nothing to do with an illness, and I was a premature birth. None of my physical problems have been linked to her problems because they're completely different. Like I said, it was a miracle she got pregnant and carried me as far as she did.
Well in my case my mothers pregnancy was FAR from straightforward In fact it came with what I believe might well be better described as a whopping dirty great big smoking gun of a problem. One of almost RPG size in fact.
She ate a plate of poisoned Calamari, (I even know the restaurant and ironically It's one of my favorites). The result was that she very nearly died from extreme dehydration and exhaustion, and because she had already miscarried previously was promptly put on DES (Di Ethyl Stiboesterol) a chemical now so reknown for causing intersex and pseudo intersex conditions that a while back there was a class action brought and settled... (and from which I am probably entitled to a share, but frankly can't be bothered).
I have seen absolute PROOF that she took DES when I saw her medical records following her death from lung cancer some while back.
The only thing I do not know, given this fact, is why it took until I was nearly 48 before anyone bothered to do all the tests and discover that hey, you weren't just trans, you were actually technically intersex, and that is why your testes never dropped, and you had gynomastica, and you were hypospadias etc etc etc.
The only thing I can think is that somehow she and our private family physician had some sort of guilt complex about it and therefore were in denial of all the otherwise rather obvious signs... (like many well too do families we had a private doctor and we weren't even registered with the NHS until much later on.)
It also explains why when I finally was going under the knife my mother said to me "I still can't understand it. When you were a checked over as baby Dr Romanis said you would be fine when you got older!" which at the time didn't make much sense but now suggests some level of withheld information.
Oh and yes I too had mild dyslexia - but thankfully mostly grew out of it.
Thanks for those insights playmates....
Di Ethyl Stiboesterol well known as a disruptor of development....
And I wonder if my mother wa?s given something to stabilise her pregnancy at the time... I doubt she would have known or been aware?
Like the Thalidomide babies.... believed to be a wonder drug at the time!!
I'm sure if a uni hospital was to investigate this as a paper.....would be very interesting to see what comes through....
So thanks for the insights ma dears...
Hi.
Nothing that i was told tho i have no memory for my first 5 years . just i was in the hospital a lot & have learning disabilitys , dyslexia & left handed. & brain wired m & f .
& i cant find or get any info of the why i was in hospitals 63 years ago.
...noeleena...
Interestingly (or not) I'm doing a little project on this to try and determine if the incidence of TS/TG has changed since hormonal or hormonal interventional medications became available. It has proved to be a very interesting study. I have had enormous difficulties with the human ethics committees to set up the study. That is to ask psychiatrists if they have TS/TG people and with their permission may I ask some questionnaire based comments.
The problems, among many, are how are you going to account for animal feed hormonal changes. Duh; society controls. How do you ID TS/TG people? Duh: psychiatrist opinion. How will the subjects know their parental care. I wanted them to ask their parents. Getting access to the parents medical records is a place too far.
What has come out is to me is interesting. The committees are having a heap of problems with the idea of TS/TG research. The same committee approves my cancer research. I have never been asked about problems with the same invasive questions for those volunteers.
I think my experience underscores a major problem in human ethics. There is an enormous reluctance to examine what they think are 'fringe' 'mental' problems. They perceive TS/TG as a problem not a condition.
It's not major problem therefore it is not important. Which is not their position to make. I have heard that the scientists on the committee are supportive, it is the lay people and the religion representatives who are not.
Interestingly again there was a survey submitted, at the same meeting, about body image problems in teenage females. They had no problems in passing a study of why teenage girls wanted plastic surgery to alter their appearance. Thought it was pretty bloody obvious myself.
Cindy
Post Merge: August 01, 2010, 05:09:03 AM
Oh sorry.
Thalidomide caused terrible deformities to many babies.
It is now of great use in treating myeloma.
Swings and balances.
I find your attitude to mental illness disturbing. Referring to people as "loonies"
You can objectify any mental illness like that, So frankly yes you are a "Loony" too get over it.
Depression can be congenital or acquired neurological insensitivity to Serotonin.
Schizophrenia can be an inherited or acquired neurological insensitivity to Dopamine.
Anorexia Nervosa is a dysregulation of Dopamine to certain stimuli caused by insensitivity to neurotransmitter "Substance P"
insensitivity to Melatonin has been seen to have roles in ADHD and autism.
And Male to Female transsexualism is apparently a neurological insensitivity to testosterone.
My mom, in spite of outside difficulties, had a very happy pregnancy. The closest I can think of was when she got attacked by a dog when she was pregnant, well, more accurately, chased.
When I was really young I got a really high fever, nearly killed me (my eyes went white and everything they say, must have been freaky.)
I don't think it was caused by external factors.
My mother *may* have taken DES but she was young, never asked questions, and just did what the doctor told her to. Some of these questions came up when I was newly married and trying to get pregnant and not being successful. So who knows if that played a role in my being trans or not.
I did only have one ovary and a calcified mass (an embryonic remnant, they called it) where the other one should have been. I like to think of it as my testicle, LOL.
I don't really care why I'm this way. now I'm the way i should be and that's all that matters.
Jay
My mother had a difficult pregnancy and had a hysterectomy shortly after i was born. This was also in the early 60's so who knows what she was prescribed during that time. She's kind of a nutcase now with all kinds of real and imagined health problems, so i really don't want to dredge up the past with her to try to find out what drugs she was on back then.
As far as I'm aware my mum's pregnancy with me was complication-free although I was born with a couple of genetic medical issues. One is that I was born blind in one eye and vision in the other isn't great. One of my cousins has the same thing. The other is dairy intolerance, and as my mother didn't breastfeed (no idea why) I almost starved to death in early infancy and my mum had to wean me onto solids at eight weeks old.
I'm pretty sure neither of these issues are in any way connected with my GID.
Quote from: perlita85 on August 01, 2010, 12:47:45 PM
I am a DES child. I have not found a link in the medical literature between DES and GID.
Cindy,
Have you?
Cheers,
Perlita
In a word yes - I May not be a medical professional like Cindy, but I have actually, ummm - that's why I said what I originally said I guess. ;)
I was involved in various medical investigations a couple of years back and that is, at least partly, how I got clued in on the detailed evidence. But I have also been aware for some time that there was a question mark over this chemical anyway.
If you read the Wikipedia article it will give you the broad outline - but in actual fact amongst those who treat intersex and trans people, that I have met, the link is known to be if anything rather more firmly established than the rather cautious wiki suggests.
There is plenty more information on the worldwide interweb thingy!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol)
To save you having to hunt for it, here is the extract from the relevant section of the article, which is headed DES Sons
Quote from: wikipedia
While earlier research on DES sons focussed on documenting the incidence of external physical malformations recognizable at birth, or sought to determine if prevelence of certain cancers increased over the lifetime of the exposed children, more recent published research has explored the possibility that some of the effects of prenatal exposure to DES might be in the area of behavioral and or neurological change. In particular, "the high prevalence of individuals with confirmed or strongly suspected prenatal DES exposure who self-identify as male-to-female transsexual or transgender, and individuals who have reported experiencing difficulties with gender dysphoria."[24]
Various neurological changes occur after prenatal exposure of embryonic males to DES and other estrogenic endocrine disrupters.[26] Animals that exhibited these structural neurological changes were also shown to demonstrate various gender-related behavioral changes (so called "feminisation of males").
Clinical studies of transgendered individuals whose brains showed sexually dimorphic characteristics of their professed gender identities and counter to their chromosomal genders, consistent with what was observed in the animal models as noted above.[27]
Hope that helps Perlita. :)
Take care.
J.
Not sure if this counts but my mother had to have a C-Section for me.
As far as i know mum had a normal pregnancy but before me she had miscarried two girls and carried 3 boys to full term and was told she probably couldnt carry girls. Then i was born and she was told 'its a girl' her first comment was 'are you sure?'
Hi..
Bodies like ours
Intersex Infomation & peer surport.
Intersex Community Forums
you may like to have a look.
im on here as well.
some very usefull info.
...noeleena...
I'd say trying to find an answer or commonality amongst all TS/TG even LGB people is clutching at straws. I can't see it happening, if it could it would have already happened surely.
I've heard many ideas.. even a new one the other night while talking with my mum.
She'd been doing her own research (wwuuhh my mum using a computer? I know daaaaamn!) and she came across something about mothers that experienced stress while pregnant. She said there was apparently a large percentage of homosexuals/lesbians (she may of included TS as well can't remember) born around the time of the second world war.
I don't know much about that theory other than the fact that it is possible for a TS to be born from a happy and positive stress-free pregnancy *shrugs*
.... just random unexplainable occurrences? I think that makes more sense to me than anything else I've heard. :S
After speaking with my mum, I said, I know you have mentioned this twice before, but can you can firm what you told me in regards to what happened during your pregnancy with me."
This is basically, what she said. "I had morning sickness all during my pregnancy with you and for a period of time 4 to 5 weeks, I was given Thalidomide, but this did not work. When I gave birth the morning sickness went away."
Mum had morning sickness for the whole of her pregnancy with my brothers and mum did not take any pills while pregnant with my brothers.
Hope this provides a little thought on the matter.
Kind regards
Sarah B
So far, what seems to have emerged is a wide variety of different pregnancy experiences, which suggests that the pregnancy might not be very significant.
As far as I know, my mother's pregnancy was largely uneventful. She certainly didn't want to be pregnant. They had just lost a young son, had no income and were living off charity handouts for most of the time.
I confess, I use to wonder why I am this way. I tended toward being just a particularly evil individual. This also explained why I didn't have any friends.
I now realise that the stereotype of being number two in a peer group is, at best, a media invention, at worst an intention with motive. I don't socialise because, like a lot of people, I'm not sociable.
As for my body. I'm a hairy woman, without the correct genitals, a bad temper and a rather unattractive, masculine shape.
I apologise if this may appear to be taking the matter off topic. I hope others will continue to describe their mother's pregnancies.
I was told that my Mum was chased across a field by a pig (the bacon kind) during her pregnancy with me.
I think explains my whole life really ::)
Cindy
Thank you Perlita.
I really do appreciate you taking the time to say that.
I don't know what happened to my mother during pregnancy. I do know I am very different from my brothers. I am small boned and feminine and my brothers are big and very guy like. My guess is I got an extra dose of estrogen or a small dose of T. I do know that my GID was not learned; it has always been there. My interest in my mothers clothes and makeup when I was very young was natural and nobody influenced me. I am not mentally ill and am quite normal except for having the wrong plumbing. The vast majority of us who undergo GRS are very happy and comfortable when natures mistake is corrected.
Pam
As far as I know, my mom had a normal pregnancy with me, except that some time during it, she got sick with a high fever and chose to take antibiotics. Apparently, there was some risk associated with the antibiotics, but it was less than that associated with having a fever during pregnancy. So that's probably insignificant.
What is more interesting is that I recently learned that years before I was born, my mother was diagnosed with lymphoma and told that she would live for no more than a few more years. I don't think there was any attempt to treat it. But over the years, my mom's health improved, and eventually, there were no longer any signs that she had lymphoma. So maybe it was a misdiagnosis, or maybe she actually made a full recovery? Maybe she actually had a non-cancerous immune system disorder? I doubt that has anything to do with TG, but who knows.
My mother had to take sex hormones for a couple of years to even get pregnant, it was in the early 70ies. It was a new product, experimental stage, and she accepted to play the guinea pig. Unfortunately, no matter how hard she tries, she cannot remember how that medicine was called.
This might be the reason why I am both trans and bi, maybe even for my weird natural sex hormone balance. But that's fine with me, a queerness side effect is much better than anything else.
@ Cindy
I apologise for not having come back to this one sooner...
Cindy.... that a very interesting post... I guess we're just not relevant enough in numbers only 1–10k births M-F's....and only 1–30k births with F-M's...
And religious bigotry is an issue that will always remain....
The (biological) truth is out there....I'm in no doubt of that ....no faith required...lol
@ pebbles...
I'm sorry if you find this post offensive....
@ Riven1
That's an amazing coincidence....my mother also had no further babies after me, though she tried...with many miscarriages and a hysterectomy... I've yet to ask whether she was on DES while carrying me.
@ Al James...
If you were born 50's-1960's and your mum had a history of miscarriage then DES could have been administered to help her.... carry you through to term....it was heavily promoted so at the time..
@ Muffin....
I believe that biologically many if not most things happen for a reason.... and if science can explain this.... then it has a part to play... for me.
I believe all sexual orientation and identity issues have a good base in brain chemistry....and what happened when the structures were being formed...
But in all else as people I'm sure we're all completely different..
@ all whom have posted so far...thank you for the replies very interesting...
You are VERY much onto something here, and I agree with you totally!
We are NOT pathological. Ours is, in fact, a medical condition.
Very briefly, my story: Born in late 1955. Adopted at age 8 months. About 8 years ago, wrote to the agency which adopted me out, filled out their casework forms and got a synopsis of my birth history from the social worker assigned to my case. My birth mother was under immense stress at both my conception and delivery. I'm the survivor of an identical twin gestation and birth. Lastly, I learned much about my genetic-lineage medical history. It's good, fortunately. Also learned personality characteristics of birth parents. Interesting! Many things FINALLY made sense. Birth mom was petite, pretty, brilliant and about age 32 when my sorry butt was born. I am the product of an extramarital affair betwixt people in an on-the-job liaison. In the mid-1950s, this was a huge disgrace. Hence, the adoption. Get rid of the problem. Don't ask. Don't tell. Good bye.
Absolutely agree with you that we should be taken out of the diagnostic statistical manual. Also, I've worked in the medical records business for about 15 years now. I don't handle medical records. I create them. People like me are the nameless, faceless nobodies you never see and never know about who transcribe doctors' dictations when you stay in the hospital. I did hard time on the front lines of medical transcription for 11+ years. As of late, I've done quality control for medical transcription --- the best of the best of the best. We QCs are the LAST eyes to see your hospital report ... before it goes to the doctor for a signature. It HAS to be right by then.
Here's the point:
Because I work on the frontlines of medicine (I operate behind the scenes.)(Your doctor, your nurses and us transcription people are THE most important people in your life whenever you are in the hospital.), my opinion is an informed one on this particular topic. Over the years, I've done reports on many brain surgeries, neurological surgeries, research reports on the same matters. Neuropharmacological researches are now definitely establishing that our condition is most assuredly both a structural and biochemical anomaly. In plain English: There's a damned good biological reason why we are the way we are. We are NOT whackos.
The researchers' findings are still being vetted out in the peer review process. That is why you haven't heard of them yet. It may be years before you do. In fact, it may be many years. Why? The Powers that Be don't like people like us.
Footnote: Researches find that sexual orientation is likewise biochemically determined.
:o Astonishing! We're NOT nuts! Like, no kidding?!? About time they figured that out!
Well such biochemical findings don't prove that we're not nuts. Many mental diseases are also at least partially due to chemical imbalances in the brain. But at least it proves we don't just make something up.
This from today's online Independent...
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/delia-formerly-david-i-was-trapped-in-the-wrong-body-2047969.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/delia-formerly-david-i-was-trapped-in-the-wrong-body-2047969.html)
She's the right age group (born 1955) to be a DES affected child...
and guess what....she's dyslexic...
Such random coincidences eh.....?
I don't really believe in any straight forward simple answers to this question. I don't really believe that all trans people are the same and that everyones motives for transition are identical. And to be honest, I don't really care what the answers are, I think we'd all be better served by worrying about ourselves a little more, and a little less about applying all encompassing theories to explain everyone else.
I also think we're better served using our minds as evidence of what we are, and less specific items of behavior.
Mental disorder, not mental disorder, I care less and less over time. As long as people aren't trying to 'cure' me and tell me my condition is psychological because my dad didn't want me and I had no male role model or some such nonsense that you can use to explain absolutely any behavior. Then I don't care.
To answer your question, my mum got pregnant when my dad didn't want kids and she refused to have another abortion (same situation had happened previously but aborted), they were fighting a lot, supposedly I was almost miscarried or something. Ended up being born a couple weeks overdue. So, not a typical problem free pregnancy.
The way I see it, it all boils down to two simple practical questions. One is can our condition be corrected by changing our minds to have a congruent gender identity, the other is, if you could, would you?