I had a recent consultation for laser with American Laser Centers. I found it to be really traumatic because I let facial hair grow out. I had not done that in a while. In the mornings I shave myself nearly raw and the carry a razor with me at all times. Yes I know, I am seriously screwed up about this and need to get it taken care of yesterday. But I digress.
Their opinion (aka sales pitch) was that they could take care of me just fine. With them you pay a price and get 8 treatments, plus unlimited follow-ups for 2 years. A good deal? NOT IF IT WILL NOT WORK! Plus I did read some of the unfavorable reports.
I keep reading so much conflicting stuff out there. And everyone seems to think that their way of treatment is what everyone else should do.
I have found another laser place as well as an electrologist and I think I will be setting up consults with both of them. But before I do I would really like some kind of definitive information if this is possible.
I have quite fair skin and light facial hair. There are a small number of dark ones in there, as well as some that are close to white, but no grey. But overall it is a light reddish blond with lighter hairs mixed in.
Other than just trying it, how do I find out if it will work for me? What lasers (if any) should I be looking for to work on light hair. Or, would it just be an exercise in futility? Should I just forget it and begin electro?
Thanks for your help!
Because you are light skinned and have light hair, don't even bother with Laser. Go straight for the electrolysis. It will be best in the long run.
Quote from: Kristi on August 03, 2010, 06:17:59 PM
I had a recent consultation for laser with American Laser Centers. I found it to be really traumatic because I let facial hair grow out. I had not done that in a while. In the mornings I shave myself nearly raw and the carry a razor with me at all times. Yes I know, I am seriously screwed up about this and need to get it taken care of yesterday. But I digress.
Their opinion (aka sales pitch) was that they could take care of me just fine. With them you pay a price and get 8 treatments, plus unlimited follow-ups for 2 years. A good deal? NOT IF IT WILL NOT WORK! Plus I did read some of the unfavorable reports.
I keep reading so much conflicting stuff out there. And everyone seems to think that their way of treatment is what everyone else should do.
I have found another laser place as well as an electrologist and I think I will be setting up consults with both of them. But before I do I would really like some kind of definitive information if this is possible.
I have quite fair skin and light facial hair. There are a small number of dark ones in there, as well as some that are close to white, but no grey. But overall it is a light reddish blond with lighter hairs mixed in.
Other than just trying it, how do I find out if it will work for me? What lasers (if any) should I be looking for to work on light hair. Or, would it just be an exercise in futility? Should I just forget it and begin electro?
Thanks for your help!
Lighter hair, with light skin is not a good candidate for laser. It worked well for me, but only because i have extremely fair skin and my hair by contrast was dark. You will still need to follow up with electrolysis for the stubborn areas, might as well just do electro to start.
I'm going to agree that skipping to electrolysis is probably your best option.
4 laser sessions have gotten me significant facial hair reduction in a short period of time, but the lighter hair seems unaffected, and I don't expect the results I've gotten to last forever.
American Laser centers did a pretty good job... ONLY AFTER I managed to get them to give me a tech who was not afraid of burning me... My skin type gives false readings on there scales for some reason so they would keep the machines turned way down...
I do have a few patches of pigmented hair left but everywhere else the hair is either completely gone or very sparse and vellous(sp?) unpigmented inviable little hairs. First few sessions I saw progress, and the last few I saw progress, but the whole time between I saw almost nothing due to a scared tech who just wouldn't get it or pass me on to someone who knew what they were doing.
Well, that is indeed the common wisdom. Light hair, you are out of luck. Also, from what I have heard, some of it depends on what kind of laser is used, that there are newer lasers that can do a better on on light hairs. I have no idea if this is true. I just wish there was a chart somewhere that was up to date. I know there is some info here on the wiki, but even it is dated. So it seems to be lots of anecdotal evidence, but not a lot of empirical data.
In case you haven't figured it out, I want laser to work, though I am getting more pessimistic.
P.S. Lynne, what kind of skin do you have that caused the false readings?
I had a realy mix of very dark hair, redish hair and grey hairs. I had, I think 8 or 9 laser sessions. After about two years the dark hairs were coming back. But by then I was well into electro and just had the dark hairs zaped with electro.
Ok I vote with everyone else. Save the money and go direct to electro. Oh for Some people the hair does not grow back but for others it will....after 2 years or so.
Laser is quick and fairly inexpensive, compaired to electro. I figure I have about 4-5 more two hour sessions and the last hairs will be gone. Thats from Feb 2007 when I first started electro. OH it averaged an hour a week, so figure about 100-150 hours. I had really dense hair so YMMV.
Beni
Very fine skin with light hair and part native american (though not overtly apparent till I tan)
I found the laser my center used did a very good job of removing the light colored hairs, the trouble was with the darker hairs and the staffs unwillingness to risk burning me even a little. I understand there are legal ramifications and they don't want someone to sue for being burned... but come on. A laser should feel like a firey rubber band snap, NOT a gentle warming of the area. My first tech who worked with me a few sessions did an awesome job, my second tech sucked... and I do hope she reads this one day and understands that I meant what I said about her being horrible. My 3rd tech who performed my last 4 sessions was phenomenal.
Would I recommend the company yes, but put your foot down, know what you want and make them do it.
When they say clean shave right before laser DON'T, if your hair grows fast shave 4 to 6hrs before, if it grows really slow 24hrs before. It seems to work much better that way.
When they are not achieving results demand they up the settings or give you a new tech. 1 session wasted isn't bad, 15 or 20 sessions waisted because you didn't say push the issue... Bad
They will use an "Aurora" or "Alexandria" laser on you with a combination of RF to work on the lighter and more stubborn hairs.
Oh, and if you want a package with them, hit them on the last day of the month.... quite often they have specials and will drop there price by 50% also if you see one of there adds for win X amount of free laser, enter... you almost always get a 300 dollar coupon towards your next purchase with them.
Thanks, Beni. BTW you are looking great these days!
Post Merge: August 03, 2010, 09:53:34 PM
Great information, Lynne. Thanks so much. Just what i was looking for. The price they gave me (including the online coupon thingie) was 2K for 8 session plus a total of two years of touchups whenever I wanted. I dunno how this compared to others. But they started out at like 3300.
Just thought I'd throw in a contrary opinion from the other side. I started with electro and after three months and the whole area under my chin and neck being cleared multiple times, I had to stop for a month for financial reasons and all of it grew right back and you can't tell that I had any electro at all. This has me down about 2100 dollars. From my angle, laser seems like a better bet, but I have to wait until summer ends.
I paid 2k after they gave me 20% off, at the time I didn't know any better, but after befriending the staff I learned the inns and outs of there business. The good tech I had most recently calls me and lets me know when they are having good deals. I plan on eventually zapping every inch of my (head hair and eyebrows excluded)body.
Each center is a little different in setup but all have the same equipment. Even though there a national chain they are franchised out like a McDonalds, so all the same but with regional differences.
So what would be a good price, Lynne?
I bought a package from American Laser for 2500. It was supposed to be 8 treatments and two years of "touch ups." Especially encouraging was the fact that I have very light skin and very dark hair.
After almost two years of treatment every 6 weeks, I'd say that 60% of my facial hair was eliminated. The area on my chin and under my lip (that would be covered by a goatee on a guy) was least affected by the laser. I found American Laser to be inconsistent; there were several techs and they all seemed to do it differently. They didn't seem to be concerned that it was taking so long.
If I tried laser again it would be with an MD. American Laser felt more like a spa than a clinical setting... I think the difference is that for a Transsexual, laser hair removal is a medical procedure necessary for transition. A.L.C. treats it as solely cosmetic.
so electro/laser, are either permenant if you have enough done?
Quote from: El on August 06, 2010, 10:41:43 AM
so electro/laser, are either permenant if you have enough done?
Yeah electro typically has a 60% chance and laser about 16-20%, however electro does a small area, while laser does a huge area so it comes down to about the same, the ideal thing to save money, is to do laser until you get those stubborn areas, then finish up with electro. Unless your skin is very fair and hair very dark, then you will see good laser results.
For me, I went to a high class place and paid 300 a visit for like 5 visits, i wasnt getting that good a result, talked around and found this other place that a lot of girls go to, i went, and they charged only 200 for 2 visits, 3d and 4th is 150, then 100 then finally 50. Yeah, so i pay 50 dollars now to get not only my face but brazillian bikini once a month, what an awesome price and her results are amazing. However not many people live where I live, but if you live in Hawaii i will be glad to give that laser person's contact info, just send a message.
So, yes its perm, yes it takes time and money, and shop around till you find the best person for the money.
I've had both electro and laser on my face, as well as near full-body laser hair removal... based on my experience and research one thing of huge importance is the experience and training of the tech. A great laser tech will get you far better results than an average electrolysis tech.
Also, stay away from the "Laser Centers" and all-in-one spas that sell laser, waxing, tanning, etc. They really lack trained staff. The place I go for laser is a doctor's (Plastic Surgeon) office and the laser tech is a PA (physicians assistant) who is certified in my state for laser... not just a cosmetologist etc. Yes it's very expensive, but faster and seemingly permanent for me, and finally the results speak for themselves. Make sure the person using the laser has been properly trained and is preferably a RN or better.
As far as lasers go, there are main flavors. The 2 most popular are YAG or Alexandrite. The YAG works better for people with darker skin, and the Alexandrite better for people with fair skin. The darker the hair and fairer the skin the better the overall result.
Electrolysis is more dependent on the operator and their training. It's very hard to find a good one. So ask around and preferably try to find one with MTF or at least some sort of male clients. This is really a dying profession which is mostly been supplanted by laser. If you feel the hair being pulled or any resistance to being plucked after the needle has been inserted, the tech is not doing it right. Go elsewhere, as the hair will return. The hair should freely slide out after being zapped. I think laser first, followed by electro to clear up any stragglers is the best approach... but this will vary by individual, skin & hair color etc.
180 to 2k sounds like a fair range. My laser center has a doctor on staff, and all the techs are certified. But certification has nothing to do with skill... look for one that grids your face and does double passes. I hate sloppy techs.
I'm fairly pale and have rather dark facial hair, what I'm wondering is if I go in for five or six sessions for lazer, and it's removed, will I ever have to worry about it growing back? I'm going to wait on HRT before I look into it, and start saving my money.
Quote from: Llewelyn on August 06, 2010, 07:15:14 PM
I'm fairly pale and have rather dark facial hair, what I'm wondering is if I go in for five or six sessions for lazer, and it's removed, will I ever have to worry about it growing back? I'm going to wait on HRT before I look into it, and start saving my money.
No one can say with certainty. "Permanent" is by law, in the US, permitted to be used if the results are shown in scientific study to not regrow by more than xx percent in a xx month period. IIRC, it's 24 months.
I had electro done on my face. That was my first step into transition, a month or so before HRT. I've had 4 techs work on me. Of them, only one produced satisfactory results. Coincidentally, the one who was the best also owns a laser for some jobs. She never used it on my face, but we are great friends today(spend 3 hours a day with someone every week for a few months and see if a relationship doesn't evolve). She did some laser on my knee caps, bikini and inner thighs where I have a tendency for ingrowns. The results are impressive.
When it comes to effacacy, as others have stated, it really comes down to many factors. Tech experience and equipment is key. There are many types of lasers on the market. Some work better than others. The most effective and sure way to remove facial hair, is with electro. The downside is it takes longer and may or may not cost more depending on the results you obtain with laser. IMHO laser is a crap shoot on the face. Besides, after a couple months you get down to 1 hour treatments a couple times a month and it's like going to the spa. I found it very relaxing... of course, the percocet helped ;)
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Quote from: Llewelyn on August 06, 2010, 07:15:14 PM
I'm fairly pale and have rather dark facial hair, what I'm wondering is if I go in for five or six sessions for lazer, and it's removed, will I ever have to worry about it growing back? I'm going to wait on HRT before I look into it, and start saving my money.
It really depends on the individual. Some have great success, others not so much.
I don't wish to turn this into a laser vs electro thread but but regardless of the methods pursued one needs to research. Personally I had to opt for electro. Had three consults with laser clinics and all echoed that my skin was too fair and the light colour of the hair would not lead to successful treatment.
I then visited several places that did electro got them to give me a sample treatment before I settled on the tech. One of the points that swayed my decision was the fact that she recorded the power levels she used on each area of my face and neck, something the others didn't do. She charges $50 and hour but I get a discount for a package.
Steph
Just remember.
Laser is perm hair reduction. It usually won't kill everything but it can leave only a few trees standing when all is said and done. If you had allot of grow back it was either due to older laser types, or a very bad tech. It's not 100% but still should be perm on the vast majority of whats been zapped. IF you went for 6 or more treatments.
Electro is perm removal of individual hairs. It can take a very long time and bad techs leave you with horrible scaring if they don't know there stuff. ANY hair zapped properly should be gone for good the first time.
To save time and money. Do both. Kill what you can with laser then finish off what ever still lives with electro.
PS: I found laser worked wonders on my skin and tone on top of killing hairs.
Quote from: LynnER on August 11, 2010, 11:14:40 PM
Just remember.
Laser is perm hair reduction. It usually won't kill everything but it can leave only a few trees standing when all is said and done. If you had allot of grow back it was either due to older laser types, or a very bad tech. It's not 100% but still should be perm on the vast majority of whats been zapped. IF you went for 6 or more treatments.
Electro is perm removal of individual hairs. It can take a very long time and bad techs leave you with horrible scaring if they don't know there stuff. ANY hair zapped properly should be gone for good the first time.
To save time and money. Do both. Kill what you can with laser then finish off what ever still lives with electro.
PS: I found laser worked wonders on my skin and tone on top of killing hairs.
I agree with everything you said EXCEPT the part I highlighted and struck out. Do you have any supporting documentation for that part? I may be wrong (and please correct me if I am), but as I understand the science of electro, the hair follicle cycles through 3 or 4 growth phases. It is only during one of those phases that the follicle can be permanently destroyed. It doesn't matter whether it's electro or laser. If the follicle isn't in that vulnerable phase, it will definitely grow back. IIRC, the phases change about every 6 weeks. It's important to note that each individual hair's growth cycle is independent of the growth cycles of the others. Mathematically, it's reasonable to assume, at any instance in time, 1/4 th of every hair on our body is in the first phase, another quarter in the second and so on.
This is why laser requires between 4 and 6 recommended treatments. Two points to consider. One,
nearly the entire treatment area is being treated. Any tech I've seen operate avoid overlapping zaps to reduce the risk of skin damage and permit the highest possible setting for increased success. In other words, if laser worked the first time, every time, (which it definitely doesn't), growing out your facial hair would leave you with bare skin polk-a-dots. And two, that whole vulnerable growth phase thing I mentioned in the previous paragraph.
During your first laser treatment, it's reasonable to expect that 1/4 of those hairs in those "polk-a-dots" the tech hits, will theoretically never grow back. Sessions are spaced 4 to 6 weeks apart to ensure that all the hairs have moved on to their next phase, increasing the chance that the phase they moved into is the "vulnerable" phase. It's important, for best results, to commit to the sessions as a package and go EVERY 5 weeks or so to ensure the best results achievable, given your personal physiology, the type and quality of equipment being used, and the ability of the tech.
Anyway, that's how I understand it. I don't want to confuse the issue. I think it's important that the correct information is disseminated. If you know of some evidence contrary to what I wrote, can you please provide me a link? I'd like to delete this post, if that's the case.
If you clean shave daily, and you let the hair row out a day or two for electro, all the hairs zapped in theory should be in there growth stage for electro anyways.
Quote from: LynnER on August 12, 2010, 06:39:55 AM
If you clean shave daily, and you let the hair row out a day or two for electro, all the hairs zapped in theory should be in there growth stage for electro anyways.
I don't think shaving changes the phase cycle of the follicle. Hair is nothing but dead cells. The follicle isn't influenced in any way by the length of those dead cells. The follicle is either adding new dead cells to the hair (anagen phase), resting (catagen phase) or falling out (telogen phase). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_follicle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_follicle)
Electro is a needle delivering energy to the follicle to destroy it. light energy is absorbed by dark colors and reflected by light colors. That's why white is a more comfortable color to wear on a sunny summer day. Dark hairs absorb laser light like lightening rods and deliver the energy to the follicle, again destroying it.
If the hair is growing out, then it is in an active growth stage and can be killed. Any dormant hairs will not grow past the skin if it is inactive. Therefore if you shave, then let it grow for a day or two, chances are, any hair showing will be killable.
Oohhh... I see what you're saying. Yeah... in theory, nearly all the visible hairs would still be in their growth stage at the time of treatment. I misunderstood what you were saying. Sorry :)
The way my laser hair removal gal explained it to me was to shave 12-24 hours before treatment, my first treatment would be a one time pass over to get a good portrayal of how my body and skin reacts. If I have positive results skin wise but poor results hair removal wise they will gladly up the setting from there.
Also, mine was a bit pricier, but comes with a lifetime guarantee as long as I make my first 9 appointments. It's with Ideal Image. I find their entire staff to be WONDERFUL! I am now on week three and am noticing SERIOUS facial hair loss. It is somewhat patchy in some places, but they said this would happen and to just let week 3 pass and by week 4 I should be completely smooth. Around week 7-8 I'd get some regrowth that they'll zap back off when I come back in at week 10 for my next treatment, and this cycle will continue for about 18 months til every follicle is killed that can grow hair. They can't however, guarantee to treat the white hairs, or red hairs with the lasers.
I have noticed in my case tho that the patchy areas seem to be where I had a white or red hair and now it's completely gone. May be just me though, I'm only now on week three, but will post some nice before and after pics at the end of this week so everyone can have an idea of what we're looking at with laser hair removal through them.
Gabby
ps my package cost 4.7k, very pricey but considering the lifetime guarantee, I accepted it, I easily could of gone with someone MUCH cheaper but they didn't look as nice and couldn't match anything ideal image gave me!
Okay, this is a topic that has been driving me crazy. As most, I am trying to schedule my transition around finishing my degree in college (about 1 year give or take), working part time in a friendly Trans environment (I am doing it through a LBGT center in town), and the baby that is on it's way. Whew.
So, I am trying to make sure that everything I do is timed well. Meaning, I start my HRT in a few weeks (saving up for sperm bank fees since we want another child), and I thought college would be a great environment to start the change.
From what I gather, since I am light-to-medium olive complected, and have black to drk brown facial hair, I should be okay with laser treatments first and then maybe go into Electro to get any stray white hairs, or reddish hairs (not many but a few around the chin) and any other hairs that didn't do it. So effectively, it will allow for a better "presentation" during my transition and HRT.
As far as chest hair and overall body hair, I understand that HRT will indeed help in those areas and I may not need to do Laser/ Electro in those areas and if so maybe only a few sessions.
So did I get it right?
:P
yes.
So am I understanding that if you get laser done and your skin is fine, but the hair is not really affected, they need to turn up the settings? Sounds reasonable, but how much skin damage is expected and acceptable?
Laser has worked great for me so far. but i'm one of the lucky few to have pale skin and dark dark hair. from my understanding it makes me an outstanding subject.
Arigato-
Jessi
Laser was a god send for me
i have olive skin and dark thick hair and after 1-monthly visits form September to June
there is NOTHING on my face.
every now and then that i should see a baby hair, i would just go in and get it zapped and tat was that
it's amazing.
A lot of it depends on your electrologist/laser technician.
fortunately mine is a woman who LIVES to destroy hair :)
I can say that I'm about a month since getting laser and the hair on the sides of my face are gone, under the jawline and the chin as well as the upper lip still have pretty dense hair but it grows REALLY slow now, I'm not sure if it's "dying" or what. Before I had laser I would have to shave twice a day, now I shave once every 2-3 days, but even shaved I still have a slight shadow around the lower portion of my face.
With that being said, I plan to have the tech kick up the laser a fair amount the next time I go in.
As far as amount of burning that's acceptable, I'd say none. A good tech/company would take their time to make sure they met your demands while still maintaining an eye on the future. Trust me, I want this hair GONE, like 15 years ago gone! But I'd rather spend an extra visit or two to get it gone and still be able to not wear make-up from time to time without worrying about blotches on my skin because of my impatience!
Seems that Olive toned skin w/dark hair = laser. If there's an ideal image in your area and you have some $$ you should stop by. Oh, and they do payments! Even if you don't have the best credit they will do in house financing, you just pay 800 upfront then 266 per month for a full face!
You get a treatment every 10 weeks, AND, most importantly, their service comes with a LIFETIME guarantee. If the hair EVER comes back, they'll treat it again and it costs you nothing. That's well worth an extra grand imo!
Gabby
The first seven sessions for my beard where with Elos technology, a combination of ipl and flashlight. The results have been good so far. Due to a move, I recently had an eight session using a 810nm diode laser, and am really curious if that will work out fine.
Prices were 750 Euros for 6 sessions for my complete face, and after that around a 107 Euros more per extra session.
Now I've got a package for beard and (upper and lower) legs for 1216GBP (was originally 1880GBP, but I got a nice discount)
I have found Hair Facts (http://www.hairfacts.com/methods/laser/laser-hair-removal/) to be pretty reliable and unbiased. Take from it what you will.
From personal observation and completely unscientific, the people I know who had laser first seemed to need less electro. I also noticed very little skin damage from electro, possibly because the need for less current because the hairs were finer. ???
I decided against laser because everything I heard said it was only temporary and I saw it as a waste of money. I went to the same electrologist several of my friends went to and they loved her. I saw little or no skin damage on their faces. Unfortunately that was not the case for me. My upper lip was the worst part of my face both in density and coarseness. I have electro damage in that area. That has been confirmed by my FFS surgeon. (I wondered if it might have been aging.)
From that I walked away with the impression that had I had laser, at least on the upper lip, maybe the damage wouldn't have been so noticeable, if at all. I don't know. I can't do control tests because there's only one of me. Maybe I'm just more prone to skin damage.
My two cents... As I said, very unscientific.
I use American Laser Centers. I also did their 6 sessions + 2 years deal and I've had 10 sessions on my face and only feel the need to shave every 2 or 3 days now. It's not really noticable visibly. Note: I do have light skin and dark hair though.
Also I didn't care for American Laser Center's way of doing things. They just seem so seedy and like they just want their $$. But they have worked out so far for me well.
I had bad experiences just trying to talk to American Laser Center. They didn't strike me as very professional at all, but maybe it was just the people I was dealing with. I had much better luck with a local business that a friend told me about.
Laser hair removal is very much a your-mileage-may-vary thing. I've had incredibly good results, but I'm very pale with black hair. Lighter hair, as noted above, will make things harder. So will darker skin. But it's not just hair/skin that can affect it. There are individual biological traits that also play a role. There is absolutely no guarantee that all of the hairs removed will be permanently gone. For the majority of people, it is. But if it grows back, it wasn't necessarily due to an old laser or incompetent technician. There's simply no way to tell for sure how your body will react.