Hey everyone... First, thanks for reading this if you happen to find it and get through all of it. I know it's long. It would be nice to get some responses, because I've had a hard time finding advice or information for my particular issue. I don't know anyone that I could really ask, and Internet searches have provided some information but not much about the particular complications of my situation. I'm nervous about posting this because even with strangers, I feel I might be betraying a certain level of trust, but I just need some help figuring things out.
I'm a bisexual, biological female with a history of mild gender dysphoria. Some days I feel OK as a female, other days less so, but I have pretty much accepted that this is who I am, at least for the time being. I identified my bisexuality at a very early age, and I have never felt confusion about my sexual orientation. In my dating history, I really don't differentiate between genders or gender identities -- I simply am with someone based on whether or not I connect with that person. The genitalia (or gender identity/expression) attached to that person has never been a deciding factor for me. I also don't care what my parents or friends or communities think about my romantic decisions; I love whom I love and it's up to me to love wholly and without reservation.
A few months ago, I met a post-T, pre-op FtM guy who typically identifies as a gay man, and pretty much exclusively dates men. We hit it off really well, we have tons in common, and we just keep getting closer and closer. Eventually he made the first move and kissed me, causing much confusion in both of us. The confusion stems from his sexual orientation as a gay man. Basically, he has said I have and am everything he wants -- except I have a vagina.
Our physical relationship has been progressing and we continue to be intimate in an emotional way. He has some issues with emotional connections and refuses to commit to me in any way because (he says) he feels like he's going to end up hurting me either by not being able to reciprocate my feelings or by leaving me for a man. I understand that those are possibilities, and it's a risk I'm willing to take.
I've told him that I'm OK with doing this however he wants to do it. I'm pretty stable in my life, my mental state, and my self-confidence, so I know that I can handle that. If he wants to go slow, or if he ends up wanting a relationship, or if he decides he just wants to be friends -- whatever he is most comfortable with is OK. I care about him more than I have cared about another person for as long as I can remember, and I am really enjoying having that bond. I'm just grateful to have met him, and I'm privileged to be close to someone who is so sweet, kind, intelligent... You get the picture. :)
Anyway, he's also pretty uncomfortable with his body. He's said that he would like to have top and bottom surgeries at some point, but it's not really feasible right now. He's been on T for several years, and he lives full-time as a man and identifies as such. I've only ever viewed him as a man. We are close and comfortable enough that we've talked about his experiences transitioning, etc., and so far there really hasn't been anything that has been uncomfortable to discuss openly, which helps, I think.
When we're intimate, we both get extremely turned on, and enjoy ourselves, but when it comes to touching each other in a way other than "dry humping" (for lack of a better descriptor), he becomes uncomfortable and we stop. Vaginas pretty much gross him out, and I understand that that is not a reflection of me and I try not to take it personally at all. He has said he's willing to sort of try to play with mine, and see how it goes, and gave me permission to try things and said he'd let me know when to stop -- and I understand how difficult that is for him and couldn't ask for more.
He seems to enjoy being with me, and bringing me pleasure (I came once and he really surprised me by calling it "->-bleeped-<-ing hot"), but I can't help but wonder if that is partly because he has so far not had to actually see or touch my female genitalia. He's been getting bolder with my breasts, however, and when I make comments about whether or not he enjoys them he simply says that he enjoys me. I'm hoping against hope that the trend continues if/when he comes into contact with my ladybits.
He also is obviously not a fan of his current genitalia either. His experiences so far (as I understand it) have been primarily with gay men (with whom he enjoys being vaginally penetrated as a bottom). He has difficulty expressing his desires, communicating what he enjoys, etc. And he's mentioned a few times that he believes I'll be grossed out by his body parts. I want to be closer to him, to be able to bring him pleasure, and to let him know that I think his body is beautiful because it's his. I wish he could understand that I really do see him as a man because that's what he is, regardless of the anatomy he was born with.
(As a side note... Sexually, I'm pretty comfortable with my body and with being adventurous. I'll try almost anything once because hey, I might like it, and I'm not afraid to try to do whatever it takes to help my partner have the most satisfying experience possible. I've told him that I'm willing to try things to help him, whether that means using a strap-on -- on me or on him -- or whatever he needs.)
Has anyone been in a situation like this? Any thoughts or advice? Suggestions for things to try to help him become more comfortable in his wonderful, perfect skin?
Thank you!
I have no real suggestions for you except keep communicating with him but can i say you sound like an amazing person. Not many people seem as open and understanding as you
I can't say I'm in the exact same situation, but I feel similarly to your FTM mate about sexual stuff. I think you are definitely on the right track by accepting him completely, being very open and talking about issues, and reassuring him that you like him the way he is. In my experience, that's what will boost his confidence and make him ready to try things and trust you. I don't think you need to do anything different, just give him time. It seems like he is willing to trust you and in time, he will probably become more comfortable sexually. Maybe not. I did, once I found a supportive and "willing to try things" partner. Just keep letting him know that you are attracted to him and like him exactly as he is now, that you see him as 100% male, and don't rush. Maybe figure out some way to get him to communicate his desires with you? Throw out options of sexual situations, and ask if he's interested in that. I know it's hard to loosen up, especially if he wants to do something he's not sure you'll be interested in. Just take your time and keep getting to know each other. I think you're doing great thus far. You seem like a really great, supportive friend/lover. Good luck!
Thank you both for taking the time to read and respond! I know that post was huge.
Reading this forum in general has been hugely helpful for me in getting some better perspective, so thank you for being here and sharing your experiences like this.
I'm glad that it sounds like I'm at least headed on the right track. I think taking it slow is the hardest part for me right now -- we are so into each other that rushing seems easy and logical, but I have to remember that he might not really be ready. It's hard because he wouldn't necessarily initiate something further if he IS ready, but I don't want to do it and push him too far, too quickly... You know?
And I won't lie, I'm very nervous we'll finally get there and he'll really decide he wants nothing to do with my female parts. Again, I know that's not anything about me, but I don't want to lose this "us" either.
Anyway... Thank you again. Really, it means a lot. <3
It seems both you and your partner are having similar issues with acceptance. You're worried that when things get more sexual that he'll not be interested in your stuff because he's identified as a gay man. He's worried that when things get more sexual that you'll not be interested in his stuff because they're feminine, but you see him as male.
As others have suggested: Take your time; keep communicating. I'm sure you'll both be able to work through this and hopefully end up closer. 8)
Welcome to Susan's btw.
Quote from: Osiris on August 07, 2010, 06:29:32 PMYou're worried that when things get more sexual that he'll not be interested in your stuff because he's identified as a gay man. He's worried that when things get more sexual that you'll not be interested in his stuff because they're feminine, but you see him as male.
Welcome to Susan's btw.
Thank you for the welcome! :)
The only thing that really makes me worried he won't like my parts is his own hesitation about it. I'm comfortable with my genitalia (sexually speaking, and more or less overall) but he has basically said that he is freaked out by vaginas and might freak out if/when he sees mine.
Thank you for the good advice though. You guys are right, it is probably wisest to just be open and go slow, and hope for the best.
Welcome to susans! You're a great person to take the time to learn and understand. Understanding is, like you said, an important factor between you and him in order for a relationship to be great. I can't say much more than everyone else did other than to tell you that I started my relationship (including a sexual one) with my ex as a "lesbian" and when I came out to her and everyone it took time for our relationship and sex life to find a balance of what I was okay with. Communication is important and it sounds like you have that so like Osiris said, take your time. Hope it all works out for you :)
Dear devikalika,
this sounds difficult. First of all, let me tell you I think you are an awesome person as your posting was very considerate.
The biggest issue seems to be him having trouble speaking about what he wants and what he is ready to do. He seems to be in love with you (and vice versa), so his issues with your vagina might be more that it's what he has as well than anything else (might! not necessarily so). Well all genitals look like radioactive outer-space vegetables anyway, plus I'm bisexual, so I don't see where's the problem. But that's just me.
Identifying as whatever (gay guy etc.) does not really count if you find the ONE person where an exception is okay - as long as you get along with throwing your self-identification over board of course or can say - I am still XY but this one person is the exception. But even that's just me. Having been openly bi for 15 years, I never had to question my sexual orientation, no matter who I dated.
Now let's come back to his problems speaking about what he wants sexually: I had an educational German book written by Grimme, it's about BDSM (sadomasochistic stuff) so ... er well... the book is very specific and explicit and of course most of it is about BDSM. But they have this fancy "list of things you might be interested into" for people who have a problem talking openly about their interests. You can copy that list and check the single items: taboo, not interesting at all, a bit interesting, somewhat interesting, rather interesting, is a big turn-on and not now, but maybe someday in the future. (I don't remember the options in detail, but that's basically what it was).
Maybe you could make up a list like that together with your boyfriend? Or find something like that on the internet, non-BDSM-like? Which he could check?
You might also consider a codeword to stop as your guy does not talk directly when it comes to sex. The codeword is also borrowed from the BDSM scene but can be used anywhere. It's a word you both agree upon to stop any sexual action immediately. Another, more sophisticated version of it is the traffic lights code. "Red" means stop immediately, "yellow" means make it less hard than it is right now and "green" means great, go on and be more intense. You needn't be into BDSM to borrow the most clever ideas from that scene.
If this all does not work for you both, you have to find a solution to make him speak about his desires and his interests and taboos. And yours as well, in case you have trouble talking about that subject.
@alexander13: Thank you! I can't imagine how much more difficult this would be to go through together if he was still in the earliest parts of transitioning. On the other hand, I'm sure it's rewarding and brings the two people together as well. I think it's beautiful that you and your girlfriend could make it work, and that gives me hope too.
@Fencesitter: I have made a point, when we're having our very honest and frank conversations, to ask specifically things that he may or may not be OK with as we progress. Some things he knows for sure he's not OK with, other things he says I could try and we'll just see how he reacts. But if I ask what he knows for sure he likes, the list is pretty short. Unfortunately, I think his partners in the past have been pretty selfish and have taken advantage of his shy self-consciousness. I'm really hoping that if he gets nothing else out of our connection, that he will at least walk away realizing how wonderful he is and how very much he deserves to take pleasure from his partnerships too. Your idea is a good one, though, even with his hesitance, so I will definitely look for something like that. Thanks!
@devikalika
Go through my posting again, I've added a lot after posting it the first time and probably after your posting as well.
Well and as you explained it in your last posting, it seems that the most important experience for your guy is that he experiences sex where he is in control and comfortable with, if his partners by now have been so selfish. This might also explain his shyness. This works even if he were somewhat submissive, the things he likes have nothing to do with the role you play during sex. Unless he were so submissive that he gets on by being forced into things he does not like, but this does not seem to be the case frome what you write.
And I think you rock and you are great, and the ideal partner for him from what I read here. Very considerate and gentleman-like. And very in love with him ;).
@Fencesitter: Thank you! I read your revised post. You made some really good suggestions, and I appreciate it a lot. I'm definitely going to take some of that into consideration.
I don't know if I'm the ideal partner for him, but I will sure try to be. :) Thank you again!
I agree with everyone else.
You are one the right track. Just take it slow and keep communicating, and everything should work out fine.
You guys seem like you're really into each other, you have something special so don't give up.
He's lucky to have someone like you.
first off this business of the guy being vaginally penetrated by gay guys? No way..a gay guy would feel sick to use a vagina so the guys he's had before have been bi not gay...and they have seen him as a bi/her...it's exactly the same situation with MtFs like me who get hit on by guys who give us the line: 'I'm a straight guy but I wanna play with your pre-op penis and f*** you anally' - they are bi or closet homos.
As he enjoys the vaginal penetration he's going to need a bi or straightish guy in his life longterm unless you can get him orientated onto sex with you using some sort of dildo.
Does he give the impression he'd rather be in a gay bar than with you?
Quote from: lilacwoman on August 08, 2010, 05:00:53 AM
first off this business of the guy being vaginally penetrated by gay guys? No way..a gay guy would feel sick to use a vagina so the guys he's had before have been bi not gay...and they have seen him as a bi/her...it's exactly the same situation with MtFs like me who get hit on by guys who give us the line: 'I'm a straight guy but I wanna play with your pre-op penis and f*** you anally' - they are bi or closet homos.
Depends on the gay guy and how much they are into d*cks. Since starting T, I have had sex with a gay guy, a straight guy and a bi guy and you can really tell the difference depending on which parts of your body they are into and which parts they ignore and how they make love. But even the gay guy did not shun completely away from my vagina and used it. Some FTMs I know hang around a lot in the gay scene and they say it sometimes works if you get the gay guy horny enough BEFORE disclosing what you have in your pants. Then quite a lot of them don't care any more and accept the "third hole option". Weird but true. Testosterone is a very powerful drug.
Plus, if devikalika's guy is into devikalika above anything else, it does not matter much if he is otherwise more gay than bi or whatever. Cause being into devikalika more than into anyone else makes you basically devikalikasexual - even if devikalika does not fit your usual prey-pattern ;).
lilacwoman: I don't much care for this generalizing and stereotyping you're doing here. There's a lot more to sexual orientation than just genitals, because there's a lot more to people than their genitals. A guy with a vagina is still a guy. If you are not attracted to men you won't want to have sex with him in any way whether it be with anal or vaginal intercourse, as you are not attracted to men.
I once had a conversation with a gay guy who said he was getting hit on by women and had to tell them that he just didn't like vaginas. He said "I'd be fine to be with a woman but I just don't like vaginas." I countered that with "Well what if a woman wanted you to do it anally, or if she wore a dildo, would you want to be with her then?" his response was "erm... no."
You see what I mean? He'd technically be able to have what's considered gay sex, but it was still unappealing because he would have to be with someone he wasn't physically attracted to.
So I don't believe that someone who is attracted to an ftm and would enjoy having vaginal sex with him makes him straight or bi. It makes him a guy who's attracted to another guy who happens to have a vagina.
I've struggled with the "what if you fell for an FTM" question ever since my ex and I broke up. Front holes really really bother me. But if am ever sexually attracted to a trans guy with a front hole, I hope I'll try to work through my discomfort.
Stream of consciousness: I still have my front hole...I hate it...perhaps some of this comes from not being attracted to women and associating certain body parts with women and not feeling fully comfortable with myself yet...trans guys are not women, and I'm attracted to men, so I could be attracted to a trans guy...but I hate the hole and love the penis...in my essentialist little mind, which I fight against all the time, men have penises unless something goes horribly wrong...what if I met a man who had had an accident down there; could I still stand to have sex with him?...there's other stuff to do...and he doesn't have a hole...trans women are women, and a lot of them still have penises...but I don't have to see those parts or make love with those women...what if the trans guy felt the same way about front holes and dumped me...grow up, Arch...it's just plumbing...BUT I DON'T LIKE THAT KIND OF PLUMBING!!!!
Sigh.
Calm down, kids.
Quote from: lilacwoman on August 08, 2010, 05:00:53 AM
No way..a gay guy would feel sick to use a vagina so the guys he's had before have been bi not gay...
This statement is not incorrect so much as it is based on an implicit definition; it is correct when using the term as a functional descriptor and incorrect as a psychological model. Sadly, the assumptions are left unnamed in both the argument and the rebuttal.
It is in such conversations as these, we risk conflating the conceptual frames (e.g. words), which must be validatable objectively, with extant processes (e.g. persons), which are axiomatic and therefore the basis of validity. That is, I have learned from long experience, the most insidious of epistemological errors.
To paraphrase the warning of Voltaire, 'The word is not the meaning; the meaning is not the word.'
- N
well as I'm LGBT link for my works and get to go on various conferences and training weekends I get the inside line on what everyone wants and likes sexually and I'll stick with the generalisations I've used earlier.
Post Merge: August 08, 2010, 01:47:42 PM
Quote from: Nimetön
To paraphrase the warning of Voltaire, 'The word is not the meaning; the meaning is not the word.
/quote]
I've never met a cat called Voltaire before but does it say a mouse is food food is a mouse?
Quote from: lilacwoman on August 08, 2010, 01:46:23 PM
well as I'm LGBT link for my works and get to go on various conferences and training weekends I get the inside line on what everyone wants and likes sexually and I'll stick with the generalisations I've used earlier.
You can hardly say "everyone", you've perhaps met and talked to 'many' people on the subject. But what people say about themselves can sometimes deviate a great deal with what they actually end up doing. I was just talking to a gay mate yesterday who was saying that he ended up making out with a woman the other night at a gay bar, yeah he was drunk but he still admitted it was fun afterwards.
If you take the Kinsey study for example, it was all based around sexual behaviour. I'm sure a majority of the people in the study would have identified as straight, many as gay and less as bisexual. But behaviourally, most had had bisexual experiences. (feel free to correct me as I can't be too sure... but I think the jist of this is right)
If you take the Kinsey study for example, it was all based around sexual behaviour.
And it was based entirely on the surveys of people incarcerated in institutional settings. It might make a difference.
Quote from: tekla on August 08, 2010, 11:22:12 PM
If you take the Kinsey study for example, it was all based around sexual behaviour.
And it was based entirely on the surveys of people incarcerated in institutional settings. It might make a difference.
Kinsey's work never made much impact here in the UK so I had no idea his research was on jailbirds or similar. That makes it very suspect. But then wasn't he a closet gay with is own agenda?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports#Findings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports#Findings)
There was further analysis done after their initial publication, if you read the last paragraph it talks about how even after they removed the stats taken from prison populations etc, it affected the overall results very little.
The reports also state that nearly 46% of the male subjects had "reacted" sexually to persons of both sexes in the course of their adult lives, and 37% had at least one homosexual experience.[7] 11.6% of white males (ages 20–35) were given a rating of 3 (about equal heterosexual and homosexual experience/response) throughout their adult lives.[8] The study also reported that 10% of American males surveyed were "more or less exclusively homosexual for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55" (in the 5 to 6 range).[9]
7% of single females (ages 20–35) and 4% of previously married females (ages 20–35) were given a rating of 3 (about equal heterosexual and homosexual experience/response) on Kinsey Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating Scale for this period of their lives.[10] 2 to 6% of females, aged 20–35, were more or less exclusively homosexual in experience/response,[11] and 1 to 3% of unmarried females aged 20–35 were exclusively homosexual in experience/response.[12]
Academic criticisms were made pertaining to sample selection and sample bias in the reports' methodology. Two main problems cited were that significant portions of the samples come from prison populations and male prostitutes, and that people who volunteer to be interviewed about taboo subject are likely to suffer from the problem of self-selection. Both undermine the usefulness of the sample in terms of determining the tendencies of the overall population. In 1948, the same year as the original publication, a committee of the American Statistical Association, including notable statisticians such as John Tukey, condemned the sampling procedure. Tukey was perhaps the most vocal critic, saying, "A random selection of three people would have been better than a group of 300 chosen by Mr. Kinsey."[13][14] Criticism principally revolved around the over-representation of some groups in the sample: 25% were, or had been, prison inmates, and 5% were male prostitutes.[citation needed] Psychologist Abraham Maslow asserted that Kinsey did not consider "volunteer bias". The data represented only those volunteering to participate in discussion of taboo topics. Most Americans were reluctant to discuss the intimate details of their sex lives even with their spouses and close friends. Before the publication of Kinsey's reports, Maslow tested Kinsey's volunteers for bias. He concluded that Kinsey's sample was unrepresentative of the general population.[15]
In response, Paul Gebhard, Kinsey's successor as director of the Kinsey Institute for Sex Research, cleaned the Kinsey data of purported contaminants, removing, for example, all material derived from prison populations in the basic sample. In 1979, Gebhard (with Alan B. Johnson) published The Kinsey Data: Marginal Tabulations of the 1938–1963 Interviews Conducted by the Institute for Sex Research. Their conclusion, to Gebhard's surprise he claimed, was that none of Kinsey's original estimates were significantly affected by this bias: that is, prison population, male prostitutes, and those who willingly participated in discussion of previously taboo sexual topics had the same statistical tendency as the general population. The results were summarized by historian, playwright, and gay-rights activist Martin Duberman, "Instead of Kinsey's 37% (men who had at least one homosexual experience), Gebhard and Johnson came up with 36.4%; the 10% figure (men who were "more or less exclusively homosexual for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55"), with prison inmates excluded, came to 9.9% for white, college-educated males and 12.7% for those with less education.[6]
I should point out that many of Kinsey's numbers, while politically convenient and satisfying in coffee-shop conversation, do not agree with subsequent research by other parties, including the CDC and academic sources. If you are a college student, you probably have access to the journals of public health and policy and the records of the CDC, which will provide multiple academic and medical studies and reproducible scientific results.
You can easily sustain your argument without reference to Kinsey, however.
- N
Quote from: lilacwoman on August 09, 2010, 02:04:46 PM
Kinsey's work never made much impact here in the UK so I had no idea his research was on jailbirds or similar. That makes it very suspect. But then wasn't he a closet gay with is own agenda?
Kinsey was not a closet gay, but an openly bi guy (at least out in his private life) His marriage was an open relationship. I don't think he was a closet gay as then he would probably not have had sex so willingly with both males and females in addition to sleeping with his wife. He would rather have skipped all or most his sexual encounters with other women.
However, being bi may have made him biased (no pun intended) to put more people into the bisexual box than might be appropriate. Some bi people seem to be convinced that in fact, "everybody's bi", even without Kinsey's studies, cause people in general tend to think that everybody's like themselves.
Getting back to devi's original questions, if you are in the USA and are "Born Again" Christians, you would be waiting until after you married to have sex, wouldn't you? In effect, is your situation all that different from a lot of other people, even if the details differ?
Just some food for thought.
@lilacwoman: I have an immediate issue with any blanket statement that tries to represent any population of people. Sexuality is often fluid and tied into a variety of factors from identity to politics to gender to mere preference, and everything in between. You're certainly entitled to your opinion about how to define sexuality, but I don't think it's fair to say something like, "Well, I know gay people and this is what they are." Of course, this is just my opinion as well. :)
@everyone: Thank you for your continued support and for sharing your thoughts and experiences with me. As I mentioned, I don't really know anyone that I can talk to in my day to day life about this, or my own gender identity and sexuality, and it has made a world of difference to me to feel like there are other people out there who "get it." The side discussion about Kinsey and sexual identity was really interesting too!
Just as an update... Things have been progressing about the same between us. My feelings keep getting stronger and I am sometimes finding myself dancing around the big scary 'L' word (and I don't mean "lesbian" :P), but that's a whole different issue for me. We sort of talked about the concept of a relationship, but he says he hates titles and I said that I'm willing to go along with that. As I've said, I feel very strongly for him and I want him to feel comfortable with "us," however we define it (or don't), so I'm really just playing it by ear. I just want him to be happy (and I'm happy with him). :)
Quote from: devikalika on August 10, 2010, 02:05:36 PM
@lilacwoman: I have an immediate issue with any blanket statement that tries to represent any population of people.
is it Ok if I use the blanket statement that practically all rapes are perpetrated by men? :D
Quote from: lilacwoman on August 10, 2010, 02:41:12 PM
is it Ok if I use the blanket statement that practically all rapes are perpetrated by men? :D
I'm not really interested in arguing with you, and rape is not a topic I want to get into at all on this thread. My point was simply that the particular group of people you were trying to lump together may not be so easily described. I appreciate your input and your insight but I just happen to disagree with you.
Enough. This has drifted off the topic and is becoming non supportive.
Topic locked