Now a little exhibitionism follows :) Wanted to resurrect an old thread but then big red letters suggested me I should rather start a new one. So here it is.
I have a question to the senior transitioners here. I'm only at 4 months so it's basically nothing. I know upper body muscles will shrink over time, but what gives them their lower limit? So far I haven't seen proper pictures of back muscles on this forum but I think it's a very big part of us which makes us manly -and want to get rid of them- so I'm thereby posting mine here so others may get a point of reference.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1032.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa404%2Fggeena%2Fmyback.jpg&hash=5cdee8ec088b967e1e1072edff7a4aa3817ce23e)
(I may post follow-ups later when there are some visible changes and I encourage others to do so. It's not that hard to take a picture of your back :) )
I cannot really decide if my frame is small or not, because compared to my height (6ft) my waist is small (33") but my shoulders aren't (44"). My basic theory is that the back must link the waist and the shoulders together so it cannot really be much smaller if the two linked points don't move :) I suppose its "texture" will be less defined and the current triangle shape will take up more of a concave form. So I think the silhouette won't change drastically but there must be some thickness of the back muscles which will partly go away, thereby reducing the overall underbust circumference somewhat.
I never really trained my back (only my legs) so I don't think there's too much muscle there; but it would sadden me if I could only lose some 2 inches from my underbust (currently 34") because I'm having problems finding the correct women's clothing and it just simply doesn't look good at all. I have significant pect muscles but the bust circumference won't really change as the muscles shrink their place will be taken up by the breasts, more or less.
So I'm asking the more seasoned people here: what are the possible outcomes of this and in what timeframe can I expect changes? I suppose it'll be years :) but what are your experiences? Do you think what's on the picture is all muscles or isn't? :)
Thanks!
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EDIT: I've just read in another thread that the shoulder blades may fall in a bit because of less muscle holding them in place. That might help the upper width of the back to be a little smaller.
we can't count your ribs for the fat over them so unless you want to be like a model and starve yourself you don't look too bad right now.
We like to think that E will soften or deplete muscle so long as you aren't exercising very hard to maintain muscle and it seems that softer muscles will loosen the bone connections a fraction but it will be only microscopic amounts.
44 inch shoulders will fit nicely in a lot of M/L jackets and tops or UK sizes 16/18 so you're not too big.
shrinking your underbust to 30 or so is in the make believe department.
oh, that's too bad... nevermind I just probably have expectations too high :) We'll see. I don't want to starve, that's for sure.
Okay, anybody else with "back problems" here? :)
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Quote from: ggina on September 06, 2010, 01:27:34 PM
oh, that's too bad... nevermind I just probably have expectations too high :) We'll see. I don't want to starve, that's for sure.
Okay, anybody else with "back problems" here? :)
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I'm pre hrt and I have very similar measurements to you.
shoulders:43-44 inches
waist:30 1/2 inches
underbust:32 1/2-33 inches
I don't think it's so unrealistic to hope for smaller measurements. Some people have great results and some have little change, it's all about the individual.I've heard of some girls going from a a 38 underbust to a 34.Just hope for the best and expect anything.
Quote from: bibilinda on September 06, 2010, 04:39:06 PM
Hi,
First, your back doesn't look bad at all. If you widened your hips a bit (which BTW CAN BE DONE purely by exercise, no matter the age, only being very careful not to overstrain and overstretch your muscles, ligaments and bones) you'd definitely look more feminine. But I think your back is fine compared to many other people. I am 6 feet tall as well and today my underbust is 32.5-33 inches, and my bra size 36 or 38, cup B with padding, A natural.
Now, let me tell you my personal experience in a nutshell:
Years ago I was a high-level bodybuilder (before I started HRT, I just crossdressed "fur fun" yeah, right!)
My measurements were approximately these: 48-36-38, about 200 pounds, most of it upper body muscle mass. My biceps were 18 inches or more flexed and (thank God) I never used steroids (testosterone)!
I've been on hormones almost 14 months today. My measurements: 37-28-39 (approximately), about 163 pounds. Weight is evenly distributed now, lower body seems to start to be bigger than upper.
Even though my hips, taken by themselves, look very feminine (even better than a minority of not very curvy GGs ), still my upper body ruins the whole picture, because my back is very broad and my shoulders are broader than my hips, no matter how far I move them backwards. My back is broad almost purely by muscle; I ruined myself during my bodybuilding days (chin-ups and upper back pulls with tons of weight); more than 4 years of heavy training took their toll forever!
Yet, ONLY when seen from the back, focusing solely on my back and arms, without considering my lower body, do I look masculine or "butch". If you see me from the front, sides or tilted halfways, I look feminine.
I have several vids on Youtube where you can check out how I look and make your own conclusions, taking into account that I used to be a big muscular guy years ago. If curious, you may send me a line to my box.
BTW, I have never measured my shoulders because it depresses me ---ironic, long ago when I was a bodybuilder, I didn't because they were "too narrow" (yeah, right), to compete against other "monsters" and now, because they are "way too broad" compared to any average GG my size-- What a mess, huh?
I wish you good luck!
Bibi
What is your you tube page name?
Thank you for your replies.
Bibi, I'll try out the exercises you mentioned in another thread, I'm curious about what can be done about the hips; though I don't have them that bad, they could use some fine-tuning to better match the shoulders.
ah, the shoulders, I agree on that. An average girl has them at most around 16-17" wide and if they get taller the shoulders don't get broader. And I have them at 19", which makes for a radical difference when looking from the front or from the back. If it weren't for the shoulders I think most of us here would be much happier with their body image; mostly because having narrower shoulders would have to bring a smaller ribcage as well. But as far as I know, these things don't really change during therapy so it's not worth worrying to bits about them. So I'm mostly concerned with my back, because that's something that CAN change and it's just nerve-wrecking to see that the amount can't be predicted :)
So I was just wondering if there's a method of measuring the expectable underbust frame size. Stupid me, I tried to pull a measuring tape around as tight as I could, under my breasts (not that I have any :) ) and the most I could squeeze out from it was 32 inches. I really-really compressed the muscles with that, so I guess that's about the bottom limit and I can be glad if I ever reach that. Because while the muscle will go away, there might be some fat replacing parts of it.
ehh, it could be that I'm a little bit too obsessed about this :) But really, this is the only thing bothering me about my looks. I'd like to go down in size, I don't want to wear the same sizes I'm wearing as a man and my back is the only thing that can stop me from doing that. (And the shoulders, maybe, but there are nice workarounds for not wearing jackets.)
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Hey Ggina,
I wouldn't think too much about this stuff. After a year of HRT I spent 4 months obsessing over this kind of thing, but there's not really all that much you can do about the shoulder width if you are already lean, although the curcumference will reduce with muscle loss. Your back looks really good, I think, even though it is 19 inches.
My shoulders are smaller than yours at 16.5 inches and 40inch circumference, and I am 5'8. However, the fact that my waist is extremely small (26 inches) makes my back look far wider than it really is, and gives me this pronouncd V taper that I don't like, although it gives me a relly good waist hip ratio - i guess we can't have it all. I started out with a 35 inch waist, about 15 months ago, which made me look like a tube lol.
I was never a high level bodybuilder like biblinda, but did workout a lot, and could hold my own at the gym, and was very good at moving furniture lol. I did a lot of lat pulldowns, barbell rows, dumbell rows, and stiff legged deadlifts, and although I was never huge, I was fairly big, and people would often comment at how strong I was for my size, even when using strict form.
After 15 months of hrt I have lost a significant amount of muscle. My underbust went from 32 inches to about 30.5 inches, but if I go really tight I can get it to 30 inches. You said your underbust is 34 inches now, so I would expect realistically you can get down to 32 if you lose more muscle, depending on how much is there now. 32 inches isn't bad at all - I think it still gives you a 36 bra band size, which I believe is average. My wife is 5'4 and 110lbs, slim, small framed, with 14.5 inch shoulders, and she still wears a 34 band bra. So at 6 foot, if you can get into a 36 band bra you're doing pretty well. I saw your other comment about envying that girl who has 15 inch shoulders - lol those are small, even compared to a lot of natal women.
Although I have lost a lot of muscle, I still have enough muscle to make me feel like a female olympic athlete when I flex. I can still do 50 pushups and 10 wide grip pullups lol although that's probably cost I lost 60lbs too. I have kind of altered my perception of my role models now - instead of looking towards women like those Hollywood starlets, or models, I tend to look more now at women like Marion Jones (well, not when she was at her steroid pumped prime, but rather how she is now, a lot softer, but still a mesomorphic female build) and other more athletic women.
I wouldn't expect your actually hips to increase, at least not in width. Your butt would increase in rear projection a lot, and marginally in side projection. Your butt will look bigger if your waist reduces, but then you'll end up having my problem with a smaller waist and an exaggerated V taper lol. It's reall all about compromises. Unless you are incredibly young and lucky and get some bone increase in hips from hrt, you would probably want to look at some form of surgical enhancement to increase the side projection of your hips.
As a bodbuilder biblina would understand that it's not just about overall size, but about relative size - creating the illusion of size or lack of size by modifying what can be changed, like you said, your back. I had to laugh at what biblina said about feeling like her shoulders were too narrow when she was still a gym junkie - I felt the same, although for me I was at least working out when I started with a bunch of Asian guys, so we were all pretty much a similar frame lol. When I moved to New Zealand and then to Australia I felt like a right shrimp when I went to the gym. Waiting to use the bench press when there's a six foot three 280lb Samoan giant using it is quite intimidating lol.
I think it's easy to lose a lot of initial muscle bulk. I have found, however, that once I reached a certain point of reduction I have been unable to lose any more muscle, at least not while maintaining what one would call a healthy diet / lifestyle. I think that's because the majority of muscle that has remained is slow twitch endurance muscle, which is far harder to reduce. Even with a zero calorie starvation diet, one only tends to lose muscle in the first three days - after that, the body will switch to predominantly burning fats, which you don't want. So starvation is a very bad idea whichever way you look at it.
As I said, I think your back honestly looks really nice, and if you told me that it was an athletic GG back I wouldn't be surprised!
Thank you for your extensive answer, andream :) We'll see how it goes...
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Thank you Bibi, I've since found your other posts on the fire hydrant exercise which I intend to try but first I have some other things do deal with in my life... But as soon as I have stabilized somewhat, I'll put together a complete program based on that plus some other findings and hope I can keep myself to it :)
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Quote from: ggina on September 15, 2010, 02:16:42 PM
Thank you Bibi, I've since found your other posts on the fire hydrant exercise which I intend to try but first I have some other things do deal with in my life... But as soon as I have stabilized somewhat, I'll put together a complete program based on that plus some other findings and hope I can keep myself to it :)
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How did you get your pic on here?
well I just clicked on "insert image", then between the two img tags I put in the url of the image which is hosted on another site (photobucket)... good luck Tori :)
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Quote from: bibilinda on September 15, 2010, 01:09:59 AM
andream, I'm very glad to see there's another ex-bodybuilder here, such as myself. BTW you look very good in your picture, it seems HRT is working out for you! Wow, you say your underbust is 30.5 inches, which means maybe you can wear 34 band bras, which is the standard bra size for average, non.overweight genetic women. I feel jealous!
Somebody asked me above for my Youtube link, I can't post it here since a couple of my videos might be construed as a bit "erotic" haha, but whoever is curious about it, pls send me a private message and I will gladly send you the link. I even have some unlisted vids on Youtube which are REALLY revealing (even in the nude), because I like to keep track of my progress and feminization is definitely the activity/way of life I have most enjoyed in my whole life.
And ggina I emphasize, IT IS POSSIBLE to broaden your hips a bit through exercise alone. I have done it myself, so I am not just saying it. Your back is nice already and not much change can be expected through HRT. A broad back is a problem most MTF transsexuals have (because the vast majority starts HRT after puberty), and yours is less broad than the average I think, so you are very lucky. I for one will never get rid of my "ugly" V-taper, yet what I'm doing is making my hips broader and curvier little by little, so I can DISTRACT ATTENTION from my back and shoulders, --which as I mentioned, I ruined when I was a bodybuilding junkie--, by looking curvy and feminine from the waist down., specially when wearing very tight dresses.
Good luck with your HRT!
Bblinda thanks! It's also nice to see somebody who was into the whole iron culture. Yeah I always like the whole fitness thing, and still try to keep fit, although without weights now. I wouldn't say I was a bodybuilder, although at one point I did idolize Frank Zane (not just for his bodybuilding though lol - he was so hot when he was in his prime, and intelligent too!), and I did spend a lot of time at the free weights over the years.
It's really hard to get my calves and biceps down much further now - I did a lot of calf work and biceps work with low repetions in the past. I have one old photo and I look like a bouncer, but not cut since I was never dedicated enough to control my eating too much!
Hey I looked at one of your older posts and saw some of your pics at some surgeon's office, and you look amazing! Your legs and arms are really long, and you look absolutely modelesque! You say you feel jealous about my 30.5" underbust, well I feel totally jealous about your long legs and frame lol.
Oh hey, I'd love to check out your youtube - could you message it please?
Andrea please don't mention calves here :) I have them at 15" unflexed, which is considered big at my frame size. I used to race bicycles and mine was the biggest in the local pack, some fellow riders were always teasing me, "what happened, a wasp stung your calves or what?" :)
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I always get curious when people post measurements, and have to compare them to my own. 15" calves are big? Just measured mine - they're 15.5". (I have occasionally been told that I have really nice and/or athletic calves, but never heard anything about them being freakishly large)
okay okay Kyril, everything is relative :) What is considered nice and athletic for a man it might not be for a woman...
Compared to my ankles and thighs, 15" seems big, they just poke out and interrupt the line that goes from the hips to the feet. I could definitely afford losing some inches from there but this topic isn't about that because it's not the main thing that concerns me by far. Well at least, not for now :) What I've done so far about this is that I've changed my bicycle riding style (I go everywhere on a bike, even during the winters) to not use the calves as much as I used to.
But at least it's good to know the girls' experiences that some muscles are indeed can be stubborn so we don't start having expectations too high :)
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Quote from: ggina on September 18, 2010, 10:28:30 AM
Andrea please don't mention calves here :) I have them at 15" unflexed, which is considered big at my frame size. I used to race bicycles and mine was the biggest in the local pack, some fellow riders were always teasing me, "what happened, a wasp stung your calves or what?" :)
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lol Mine are 14.5 inches unflexed and i am 3 inches shorter than you ;). I see heaps of women with bigger calves than that, especially Asian girls, so at least that's one consolation!
Quote from: andream on September 18, 2010, 06:41:37 PM
I see heaps of women with bigger calves than that, especially Asian girls, so at least that's one consolation!
hey, I always wanted to be asian lol :)
Quote from: ggina on September 19, 2010, 01:35:10 AM
hey, I always wanted to be asian lol :)
What is your hip measurement.Don't feel bad about your thighs mine are 21".
No problem with the thighs, where did you get that Tori? :) Hips? Last time I checked they were around 40". Why?
(see this thread starting to turn into a general measurement topic... I don't mind going off sometimes but there are better places for discussing this)
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