Lately I've been spending a lot more time out in public and I've noticed a lot of irritated looks from women. Sometimes I get kind of uncomfortable looks from men (which I'm clueless about too) but it's mostly women. They'll usually look at me and then look irritated and look away or they'll continue to look me up and down with a disdainful expression. I really don't know what it is but it always makes me feel like I don't pass or something (despite what all my friends tell me). :embarrassed:
Does anyone else get this? Is it possible that they are just jealous of my height (5'10") or looks? I've spent so much time shying away from people that I never learned the social cues between females. I know that women can be awfully competitive at times, but I don't know how common it is or how it's expressed. But just in the last few days I've gotten these evil glares at a restaurant, a grocery store, a mall, and a thrift shop. What could it mean?! :'(
Quote from: Ayaname on September 17, 2010, 04:30:13 PMThey'll usually look at me and then look irritated and look away or they'll continue to look me up and down with a disdainful expression. I really don't know what it is but it always makes me feel like I don't pass or something (despite what all my friends tell me). :embarrassed:
Is it possible that there's some posture/mannerism/nonverbal cue that you're unconsciously doing that might cause them to think you're not a woman? I know I've heard that if you think you totally pass, watch yourself on video and you might find out there are things you're missing that give you away. Not saying that's the CASE, just asking if it's possible. Myself, I'm just way at the beginning, no thoughts of passing for a while yet...
Quote from: Colleen Ireland on September 17, 2010, 04:40:03 PM
Is it possible that there's some posture/mannerism/nonverbal cue that you're unconsciously doing that might cause them to think you're not a woman? I know I've heard that if you think you totally pass, watch yourself on video and you might find out there are things you're missing that give you away. Not saying that's the CASE, just asking if it's possible. Myself, I'm just way at the beginning, no thoughts of passing for a while yet...
It's entirely possible as I am extremely socially awkward. I used to get a lot of negative attention from males because of it before I transitioned. Before it made me come off as weak or cowardly, but now I'm really not sure how it comes off because I honestly have never really seen a female act that way. The shyness that a female has comes off a bit differently I think due to the difference in social status that women have as opposed to men. I'm really not sure how to stop the habits though other than by getting rid of my insecurities that I've been struggling with my whole life. Except now I have even more obstacles than before I transitioned. Specifically my fear of being outed and the fact that I'm tall for a female so I'd stand out even as a cis woman. This awkwardness is exactly why I've been forcing myself out in public more lately. It's all I know to do to combat this. It's just very overwhelming and scary when people look at me.
Well, first of all, good on you for being brave enough to get out there. That's an incredibly big step right there. Are there any trans support groups in your area? That might be a good place to get help and information (or just a shoulder to cry on - we all need that sometimes). Other than that, try videoing yourself and then watch the video critically - see if you can pick up on anything that might give you away. And... there are LOTS of threads here on that very topic...
If anything it will be because you are gorgeous.
you are tall, young and lovely. Women envy you. Just keep working it honey!
It might be jealousy.
I know sometimes I see pictures of y'all and get a bit jealous because you guys are absolutely gorgeous, and I'm not. But I don't think I'd ever give someone a nasty look if they were prettier than me, I'd probably be more like "omg! you're so pretty!" Or something similar.
You shouldn't care that the other girls might be jealous of you, just ignore them and prove that you're better than them.
I'm 5'10"ish and no one gives me weird looks or mentions my height (this might depend on where you live, are most people noticeable shorter where you live?). I remember walking into a store in a mall though (I was actually applying for a job there) with like 7 girls in it and I was quite noticeable the tallest one there, but afaik I passed fine (though my height is considered quite tall, it isn't too unusually where I live from what I can see). I knew a girl in high school that was 6'4", that's when people will look at you lol (in her case it was just wow she's tall, nothing bad), people would ask her how tall she was and ask her if she played basketball (which she did lol).
I really don't think posture/mannerism/nonverbal cue/etc have as much importance compared to appearance, unless you are doing something out of the ordinary (talking very loud, limping, moving in an way people usually don't do like skipping, etc). Coming off as very nervous is included in that, since you mentioned you had problems with that in the past, it's a possibility that is it. I have issues with being nervous and shy, but it gets easier with time. When I first started going out as female my mom would come with me (don't laugh! >_<) since I was so scared by myself, I found that to be helpful having someone you're comfortable with come along, and like say if a person at a store asks if you want help, my mom would answer (part of that was I worried about my voice when I was still working on it, the big part though I would just get nervous talking to people in general).
Anyways like Colleen said just going out is a big step, so you should feel proud of yourself ;D. Also basing off your avatar you pass easily to me, so maybe just go with what Nicky said :P
Quote from: Ayaname on September 17, 2010, 04:30:13 PM
Lately I've been spending a lot more time out in public and I've noticed a lot of irritated looks from women. Sometimes I get kind of uncomfortable looks from men (which I'm clueless about too) but it's mostly women. They'll usually look at me and then look irritated and look away or they'll continue to look me up and down with a disdainful expression. I really don't know what it is but it always makes me feel like I don't pass or something (despite what all my friends tell me). :embarrassed:
Does anyone else get this? Is it possible that they are just jealous of my height (5'10") or looks? I've spent so much time shying away from people that I never learned the social cues between females. I know that women can be awfully competitive at times, but I don't know how common it is or how it's expressed. But just in the last few days I've gotten these evil glares at a restaurant, a grocery store, a mall, and a thrift shop. What could it mean?! :'(
Well i got 1 or 2 of those when i first came out, but slowly they went away. Can be lots of things really. At first i think, even in my case where my friends said i looked good enough to pass i looked back and compared how i look now and went... uh... i think my friends were just being nice. All i can say is the longer your on HRT the less and less people look at you until your just one of the crowd. Unless you have a booming voice or something or dress funny. That could be it you know.. how you dress.
The most important thing, is just dont worry about it, just go about your business and not constantly seem nervous or out of place. The more you worry about this or that the more out of place you seem. Just enjoy it.
In my experience, a lot of women judge other women quite harshly based on appearances. I think men can, too, but it takes a lot more for them to notice. I'm on the FTM-ish end of things, and I get critical looks from women all the time, whether I'm in a women-only space (like a bathroom) or not. Men, on the other hand, don't give me a second glance (though I've managed to not run into any in restrooms, etc.). I think feeling judged by women was part of why I couldn't stand girls in middle/high school, because the looks of distaste I got made me uncomfortable. My only advice is to try not to take it personally, and definitely don't take it as a reason to doubt how they're reading you; if anything, it's a sign that they see you as a woman, and thus subject to judgment by them, as I've never seen the women who give such critical looks give them to someone who I read 100% as male.
I suspect it's because you're tall and attractive, but yeah, it could be a variety of reasons
I was suddenly getting the "stink eye" from a bunch of gals that would normally be nice to me... Turns out I had unknowingly attracted the attention of some guys... particularly one that one of the gals liked
That all ended when I told the guy that he was too young and immature for me
Now all but one of the gals are nice again... Go figure
Learning to be a part of the female world is so much fun :laugh:
To clear some things up, I've been on various hormones for about 2 years so it's not like this is anything new to me. My going out isn't about learning to live as a female because, again, I've been full time for quite a while. It's just me trying to get over my social awkwardness after a long break from the outside world. I used to still go out on weekends and drink because it helped me be more comfortable, but that was the extent of my public exposure.
And as for friends telling me I pass; it's more like they were surprised to hear that I was trans when I told them. I'm hardly ever outed by the friends I make and the few times I am it's by people who are very used to the trans crowd, and even then it takes them a while.
Attractiveness is something that I do, but don't, worry about. I'm always told by people that I'm pretty and I've even attracted straight guys who've dated models, but it's not something that I ever wanted. I know this will probably be upsetting to hear, but I actually always wished I looked more plain so people weren't always compelled to stare.
I'm also tall for my area. Females where I live tend to be much shorter than the national average. Even my roommate was surprised by this when she first moved to this state. She was always one of the shortest girls in her town growing up, but here she's actually taller than about 50% of the females.
I guess my biggest issue is just being paranoid that every single glare means something negative. I just can't seem to shake my insecurities though.
When I first read your post I immediately jumped to "maybe it's the way you dress?" and then I started thinking while reading other posts, and thought.. maybe they're reacting to you because you are paying attention to them? Are you looking at them, and are they seeing you do so? If so, they might think you're a lesbian. Of course I'm still more compelled to think it may either be the way you're dressing, or just them being jealous for some reason.
Quote from: bibilinda on September 18, 2010, 07:26:46 PM
My goal is to pass someday as a girl, DRESSED AND ACTING 100% AS A GUY. That's the best test ever, in my mind.
This is what I've always aspired to as well. I'm living full time as a woman, but I do go to my laser treatments in guy mode since it would be odd for a female to walk out of there with redness where facial hair should be. Even now I've still not been "mam'd" though. :( I think they know me too well now to make the mistake anyway, but I still always hope. They've never eluded to my feminine appearance though so I often feel like I'm fooling myself.
Quote from: Ayaname
/quote]
stop making eye contact then you a, won't see the glances and b, won't get worried and c, you won't get read so often - as basically they are reading you as CD/TV/perv/freak etc depending on which Jerry Springer show formulated their ideas on TSism.
If your mirror shows you an ordinary female then think of yourself as being that and go face the world and let them all think what they want.
From someone else with social awkwardness and bouts of isolation:
We shy types can be hypersensitive to the presence of very subtle social cues, and at the same time have more trouble reading them. In some cases this is actually one of the causes of our shyness or awkwardness - we feel like we're being bombarded with messages that we can't understand. I don't know what the recommended way of coping with this is, but I do find that when I spend more time out - especially in the same setting, ideally with some of the same people - I start becoming better able to filter the meaningful cues from the "noise."
There's always going to be a lot of nonverbal "noise" - people look uncomfortable or angry or irritated for a lot of reasons. Maybe they're sick, or they're concerned about a relative, or they just realized they forgot something at home, or they're jealous of your hair, or they wish their clingy boyfriend would stop calling every five minutes. Sometimes they might be loking in your direction as one of those thoughts surfaces. Doesn't mean it necessarily has anything to do with you. But it can feel like it, when you've been avoiding social contact for some time and you're not used to having hundreds of people around you making facial expressions.
I don't think it's any one certain thing . Perhaps a combination of circumstances , some beyond you're control. Lookhon, I get the same thing , i also get admireing smiles from Women in public that I Know have read me inside an out . My advice , Shine them on , you need to be good to yerself first !ellen
Quote from: bibilinda on September 18, 2010, 07:26:46 PM
My goal is to pass someday as a girl, DRESSED AND ACTING 100% AS A GUY.
Quote from: Ayaname on September 18, 2010, 07:48:47 PM
This is what I've always aspired to as well. I'm living full time as a woman, but I do go to my laser treatments in guy mode since it would be odd for a female to walk out of there with redness where facial hair should be. Even now I've still not been "mam'd" though. :( I think they know me too well now to make the mistake anyway, but I still always hope. They've never eluded to my feminine appearance though so I often feel like I'm fooling myself.
I'll be honest...you both probably already do pass as female when you think that you're in guy mode...you just never really now about it, unless it's so blatantly obvious that you end up like "WTF! just happened!"
the other weekend I was blatantly ignored in the pub by a really close friend who I'd lived with for ages, which i thought was odd. I found out a few days later when we met for lunch that she'd seen another friend and me from behind and thought I was his gf! and hadn't wanted to come over and disturb him because she didn't know her that well. This was in what I would have considered to be full on guy mode i.e. not making any effort what so ever to dress in a feminine way and was faintly hungover so hadn't bothered with shaving. all i was doing was sitting there and having a conversation with a friend and was read as girl, not boy. I bet my eye teeth it's the same for you and i bet all the stares are from bitchy women thinking "god I wish i had her figure".
Quote from: kyril on September 20, 2010, 06:46:17 AM
From someone else with social awkwardness and bouts of isolation:
We shy types can be hypersensitive to the presence of very subtle social cues, and at the same time have more trouble reading them. In some cases this is actually one of the causes of our shyness or awkwardness - we feel like we're being bombarded with messages that we can't understand. I don't know what the recommended way of coping with this is, but I do find that when I spend more time out - especially in the same setting, ideally with some of the same people - I start becoming better able to filter the meaningful cues from the "noise."
There's always going to be a lot of nonverbal "noise" - people look uncomfortable or angry or irritated for a lot of reasons. Maybe they're sick, or they're concerned about a relative, or they just realized they forgot something at home, or they're jealous of your hair, or they wish their clingy boyfriend would stop calling every five minutes. Sometimes they might be loking in your direction as one of those thoughts surfaces. Doesn't mean it necessarily has anything to do with you. But it can feel like it, when you've been avoiding social contact for some time and you're not used to having hundreds of people around you making facial expressions.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that I look at other people a lot more than most people do. I formed the habit from childhood. I loved being around people, but I was too shy to say anything so I'd just sit and observe everyone. Things haven't really changed much in the last 20+ years. ::)
It's so hard to not notice people staring though, no matter how hard I try to just divert my gaze.
Since I can't really see any more of you other than your avatar (I'm still new so I can't do much), I'd venture to guess that jealousy is one of the more likely reasons why other girls look at you. As far as the boys go, it's probably some sort of attraction! Now, again, I'm basing this off of your avatar and not your overall appearance, but your fashion sense and your "look" may have something to do with it as well.
Either way, if you're turning heads it's best to assume that you're doing something right as opposed to something wrong because, believe it or not, your attitude is immediately apparent even if people see you for a second or two. If you have that confident stride about you, people notice it and get jealous easy and, to make themselves feel better, try to spot any flaws in your presentation. If you are a little bit shy, people notice it too sometimes and try to figure out why you're acting this way. In either case, especially if you look really good, you tend to attract more attention than normal... and that's perfectly fine!
I agree with what @kyril said in that shy people are hypersensitive. However, if you are getting blatantly obvious glares from other women maybe it is jealousy? Honestly, I never picked up on female cues myself, even having to live as one. Everything seems to have a double meaning. Like a women can say something like, "Oh don't you look pretty" and it can either mean that or it can be a really snide comment. I know that's not very helpful! Being a shy person myself it's taken me a long time to not feel like all eyes were on me. I still feel like they are at times. Mostly I think people are just wondering if I'm a guy or a girl. If that is you in your avatar I would say you are pretty and if people are giving you glares, smile at them! If they weren't really giving you a glare they'll stop and maybe think about it or smile back or it would at least relieve some tension about the situation. Depending on where you are in the country it's perfectly acceptable for one person to smile at another after making inadvertent eye-contact (unless you're in a big city like NYC or L.A. sometimes it can be read wrong then!).
Quote from: bibilinda on September 20, 2010, 06:26:31 PM
Jerry Springer, haha... Didn't that show go off the air like a gazillion years ago? Sorry, just another laughing bout I'm havving just now... Not sure if it is the progesterone or just crazy ol' me...
That's why I say I get my "stink eye" from older women... they're the ones with old-fashioned (more like dogmatic and stupid) ideas, and probably the ones who watched that show every day and took it seriously!
This is so true. It's pretty sad that some people got their 'education' from Jerry Springer show. :(
Who's Jerry Springer ???
The first thing that comes to mind is that maybe you are looking or even staring at people and they think it's rude or something. I mean, the fact that you are noticing people looking at you tells me that you aren't distracted by your own thoughts. Your attention might be turned outwards and you might seem really tense and not relaxed, and that can attract attention and annoy people. Others can spot it if you are glancing at them, even out of the corner of your eye, and be creeped out by it. If that's the case, just try thinking of other stuff and get it off your mind. You can't go around trying to observe the way people perceive you and still act natural.
I'm also of the idea that they are just jealous. You are very very pretty!
maybe u were new in the town. so they look at u.. stay positif. =)
Quote from: glendagladwitch on September 20, 2010, 09:06:07 PM
The first thing that comes to mind is that maybe you are looking or even staring at people and they think it's rude or something. I mean, the fact that you are noticing people looking at you tells me that you aren't distracted by your own thoughts. Your attention might be turned outwards and you might seem really tense and not relaxed, and that can attract attention and annoy people. Others can spot it if you are glancing at them, even out of the corner of your eye, and be creeped out by it. If that's the case, just try thinking of other stuff and get it off your mind. You can't go around trying to observe the way people perceive you and still act natural.
I tell myself this a lot, but it's been pretty ingrained in me to watch people. I've always worried that it's made me come off as a creeper. :(
I can never tell what's more egocentric though; constantly wondering what the rest of the world thinks of me, or being too distracted by my own thoughts to care...
Quote from: Ayaname
no matter how hard I try to just divert my gaze.
It can't be so hard, you're taller than most of them :) At 6ft I should know :)
Although one must be careful when ignoring others:
Quote from: Keira on June 07, 2008, 06:14:03 PM
Not caring if other's clock you, or even accept you is
a way to distance yourself from others.
I'm not so sure its courageous, or oblivious.
I actually see this kind "I don't care what the world thinks" more
often when TS start therapy and they are often mad at the world
because of their past.
The result of this is often not to good integration with society and
failed or marginal transition. Unless people actually care if
the world accepts you, its hard to integrate this world
(that's my observation).
That doesn't mean you should put your self-worth in the hands of
those outside you. But, there should be an equilibrium
between doing your own thing and being in society.