Before coming out to yourself as trans, did you tend to deny or minimize the differences between the sexes or between yourself and the 'opposite' sex?
I absolutely still do! :D
With such a TINY difference it was uber annoying to feel so strongly that I was on the wrong side of what from my POV was a virtually non existent gap! :laugh: It made no sense that it was so important - but it was!
I think there are a lot of difference, and these difference is what makes it so obvious that somebody doesn't quite have the right body for who they really are.
I can understand some need to blur the line in order to blend to one side from the other. Maybe some of us don't care about that and just go with the flow and hope the flow contains the destination.
Yes. Bigtime. Anyone anyone made any observation about sex differences, I would argue like the most obnoxiously militant feminist.
Quote from: kyril on October 08, 2010, 04:03:49 PM
Yes. Bigtime. Anyone anyone made any observation about sex differences, I would argue like the most obnoxiously militant feminist.
Same here. I probably still would, I just haven't been faced with that situation recently.
I was always VERY interested in what differences there were. I knew the obvious anatomical diffrences, and I was aware of the cultural differences, but I wanted to know what other differences there are. (For instance, in general males are better at pinpointing the source of a sound than females are.) Most of the differences are just a matter of degree, with a great deal of overlap, but there are differences on average. (You can find men with broader hips than some women, etc. I'm talking in general.)
I guess I've been fascinated by what makes a man and what makes a woman since discovering at age 4 that I was something else. ::)
- Kate
No, not really...the opposite, in fact.
Before accepting myself as trans, I tried my best to ignore the obvious physical differences because that's what bothered me most. Even so, I always paid very close attention to social/cultural differences. I still do.
Quote from: Nero on October 08, 2010, 03:16:59 PMBefore coming out to yourself as trans, did you tend to deny or minimize the differences between the sexes or between yourself and the 'opposite' sex?
Yes, yes, yes.
OMG yes!
The only diferance I would admit was plumbing and strength. I was very adamant there was no diferance in the sexs and any diferances were of minor consequence.
Now as my transition moves along I see how completely wrong I was.
The opposite I think. I believed a lot of stereotypes when I was a child.
Yes, absolutely!
I had no idea why there was such a big deal and why I had to play with the boys and not the girls. Even though I understand why people do this now, I still think that people "make a difference out of difference" way too much.
Yes, very much. I'm still not especially convinced of a gender binary.
I certainly believed there were differences, but was absolutely sure of equality, even as a teenager.
When I read Greer's 'The Female Eunuch' at 18, my reaction was along the lines of, "yeah, ok....just wasted a few hours reading things I already believed."
I always believed that the was only 3% difference between the sexes. Having been on both sides now, I see that there are major differences.
When living as F I didn't think there was still so much discrimination against women in this enlightened age; being F I didn't see it that much. But now as M it's blatantly obvious, in TV shows even with competent intelligent accomplished characters, they are still 'less than.' It annoys me more now.
OTOH I sometimes feel like an a$$hole for enjoying male privilege I was denied my whole life. And I also see that yes, women sometimes actually DO act like the stereotypes (men, too!) which annoys me. Then I feel like a misogynistic a$$hole.
Jay
I "did" and still "do". I wouldn't call it denial- we're more alike than different and pretending otherwise just makes it a lot harder on everybody.
Yes and No,..
See, a LOT of the expressed differences are stereotype-bullsh. that does not conform to reality.
I take one look around my own family alone and I find both men and women that possess traits that are "stereotypically" stated to belong to the other gender.
I find the stereotype b.s. to be.. well.. b.s.
I haven't ever really given this question that much thought, but I do know that all my life (aside from several decades where I was ignoring the whole issue) I have felt "wrong" as a male, and that I should be a female, and I think there HAS to be some basis for that. If the differences are only minor, or largely non-existent, why does it bother us so much to be the wrong gender?
Quote from: SummerfallI'm still not especially convinced of a gender binary.
I've come to think of it as a gender continuum. Not binary. And I definitely fall more on the female side (inside, where it counts) than on the male side. Which is why I wish to modify my body. My therapist also sees it that way - as a continuum, and sometimes it's tricky to figure out where on the continuum you "fit"...
I think attitudes and preconceptions among transitioners have changed a lot over the past 20 years. Shortly after I joined a TG support group at the start of transition and began transitioning, I soon came to grips with just how warped my ideas about gender had become as a result of having grown up in such a highly gender segregated society, and being constantly bombarded with two-dimensional, cardboard images of the gender extremes to which men and women were supposed to aspire. Then I made a comment at one the support group meetings about how the similarities beteeen men and women far outweighed the differences, and everyone looked horrified and exclaimed that men and women are completely different, in every conceivable way. It was the complete opposite of what seems to be the consensus here.
@ Colleen...
*I've come to think of it as a gender continuum*
I think that's a super-smart answer...... as there's no single male v female/black & white stock type.....from the uber-estrogenised blonde pretty, pretty ultra femme girlie girl....to the hair follicle challenged combat and beat the living sh#t out of you highly aggressive and competitive alpha male....
With most of us somewhere on the slide in-between.....
Would Transsexuals Exist in Utopia?
by Jordan Rubenstein October 05, 2010 12:00 PM (PT)
Topics: Transgender Issues
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchange-production.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fphotos%2Fwordpress_copies%2Fgayrights%2F2010%2F10%2Futopia-250x166.jpg&hash=eda443eb5b0c9dbbb2ce6576a6863f2e63b10f9d) (http://gayrights.change.org/blog/view/would_transsexuals_exist_in_utopia)
<a href="http://gayrights.change.org/blog/category/transgender_issues">.Some people argue that transsexuals wouldn't exist in a perfect society. The idea behind this is that if we lived in a society where there was complete gender equality and gender didn't matter, no one would get sex reassignment surgery. In this society, they claim that no one would need to get surgery or alter their body; the transition process would disappear.
This idea is based on the idea that transgender people are just people who want to get genital surgery. It's based on an incredibly narrow definition of transgender people, only considering those who identify on the gender binary and get sex reassignment surgery. It assumes that transgender people are all conservative in their views of gender expression and only exist due to gender oppression.
But this view ignores many aspects of transgender life and neglects to explain the diversity within the transgender community. The theory is destroyed by the existence of transsexuals who choose not to have sex reassignment surgery, or those who do have sex reassignment surgery but don't identify along the gender binary of man or woman. It also fails to consider why people have sex reassignment surgery, assuming that they do so only because of societal constraints.
Even if we lived in a society where there was less emphasis on differentiating between male and female bodies, there would still be people who wanted sex reassignment surgery. Let's hope that we reach this utopia with complete gender equality -- but when we do, no one should expect that it will be the end of the transgender community. While some transgender people may choose not to transition in such a society, some transgender people would still identify as transgender and choose to transition in this utopian society.
While those who argue that transgender people only exist because of gender oppression often give the appearance that their viewpoint is liberal and feminist, it's actually steeped in oppression against transgender people. If people should be able to express their gender however they'd like, why shouldn't they also be able to alter their bodies and identify how they'd like?
Photo credit: Felipe Venâncio
Jordan Rubenstein is the former president of Carnegie Mellon University's LGBT student organization, ALLIES. Jordan lives in New York City.
Quote from: Colleen Ireland on October 09, 2010, 10:29:36 AM
I've come to think of it as a gender continuum. Not binary. And I definitely fall more on the female side (inside, where it counts) than on the male side. Which is why I wish to modify my body. My therapist also sees it that way - as a continuum, and sometimes it's tricky to figure out where on the continuum you "fit"...
I would definitely prefer a continuum approach over a purely black and white perspective, but I wonder if that even falls short. I like what I saw posted in the androgyne forums
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.charlieglickman.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F09%2FThinking-of-Gender.jpg&hash=5ef45169c46a6c0b9d4bb0f3d6561de785cfd77f)
Oh yes definitely.
well, i didn't really pay much attention to it. i never understood males. i always felt female, and knew that's what i was, but eventually it got to the point where i felt like i was neither, just because my body did not match how i felt inside, and society made me get to feeling that way. i got so depressed and felt lost that i really didn't even think of it, but now i do think more of it since i'm transitioning. i just understand there's alot of differences, but i don't worry about it. i try to just be myself and know my place.
Oh gawd no I did everything in my power to make sure everybody realised I wasn't like all the other girls, I refused to be categorised as one of them and would point out the differences constantly to make sure everyone realised I wasn't like them.
Quote from: Jeatyn on October 09, 2010, 06:33:19 PM
Oh gawd no I did everything in my power to make sure everybody realised I wasn't like all the other girls, I refused to be categorised as one of them and would point out the differences constantly to make sure everyone realised I wasn't like them.
Haha, me too. I would point to all the ways in which I'm more like a guy as evidence that there aren't actually differences between the genders. But as time went on, I realized that there actually are general differences and I happen to be on the male end of the spectrum.
Yes. Because I desperately needed to believe I didn't have to transition in order to be myself.
I still don't believe in a distinct gender binary, but I know now that there are just enough differences that I simply cannot exist in a female body and stay alive/happy. Even if I went with androgyny I'd need to do it as a mostly male-bodied androgyne, just as an example.
Quote from: K8 on October 08, 2010, 07:08:22 PM
I was always VERY interested in what differences there were. I knew the obvious anatomical diffrences, and I was aware of the cultural differences, but I wanted to know what other differences there are. (For instance, in general males are better at pinpointing the source of a sound than females are.) Most of the differences are just a matter of degree, with a great deal of overlap, but there are differences on average. (You can find men with broader hips than some women, etc. I'm talking in general.)
I guess I've been fascinated by what makes a man and what makes a woman since discovering at age 4 that I was something else. ::)
- Kate
Totally agree, Kate ... hell, I wanted to know so badly I wrote books about it ... no, really, actual published (and reviewed, translated and in one case even filmed) books hahaha!
As to those who say that there are very few differences between the sexes and/or that we are all on a continuum, I totally agree that the human condition is the same for us all; that nationality, class, race, religion, sexual orientation, education, profession and many other factors define us as much as, if not more than gender; that there is a much more subtle psychological continuum between genders than our (mostly) binary physical gender would suggest ... BUT ... those small differences between men and women are all the difference in the world. And every day, with every word we speak, every step we take, every time people respond to us we are reminded what gender-box society puts us into ...
... we on this forum, of all people, know that ...
For me, and I suspect many others, the obvious differences between gender is when we are mis-identified. When the guys get called miss and girls, sir. For many (including me) it hurts like Hell. Why?
Cindy
Growing up, I made the silly mistake of subconsciously projecting how I felt with how 'other' males much felt too, causing me to believe the differences were pretty much limited to how we reproduce and some other physical differences. In other words, since I personally identified as female then everyone, if they had a choice, would obviously like to reflect that biologically however biology necessitated half of people to be male so reproduction could occur. Behavioral differences I attributed to social obligation (like attending school, going to work... stuff you had to be but not because you wanted to).
Obviously... that view led to much confusion in my interactions and understanding of people until I learned that transitioning was possible during college. Once I realized that people actually could switch over and most did not, I finally was clued in that my feelings were likely the exception not the norm.
In the present, I still don't think there's any overarching all-encompassing differences in our brain structure... after all we are the same species (an early fetus has the full potential to grow into either a complete male or complete female, regardless of which sex chromosomes).
In my opinion, the real difference is one at our very center/core that is the source of our desires, needs, and emotions. Many of these are shared by men and women, such as food, warmth, having friends, while many are a little (or a lot) different between genders including body image, sexuality, power, etc. I would guess that such differences are one of the first things to manifest when we differentiate in the womb and form the basis of our gender identity. Transsexuality is an intersex condition specific to this part of development.
Quote from: Inanna on October 12, 2010, 11:20:59 AM
Growing up, I made the silly mistake of subconsciously projecting how I felt with how 'other' males much felt too, causing me to believe the differences were pretty much limited to how we reproduce and some other physical differences. In other words, since I personally identified as female then everyone, if they had a choice, would obviously like to reflect that biologically however biology necessitated half of people to be male so reproduction could occur. Behavioral differences I attributed to social obligation (like attending school, going to work... stuff you had to be but not because you wanted to).
Obviously... that view led to much confusion in my interactions and understanding of people until I learned that transitioning was possible during college. Once I realized that people actually could switch over and most did not, I finally was clued in that my feelings were likely the exception not the norm.
Yeah, I did the same thing but in the other direction. I still find it awfully hard to fathom that anyone would actually want to be female.
Quote from: kyril on October 12, 2010, 02:19:20 PM
Yeah, I did the same thing but in the other direction. I still find it awfully hard to fathom that anyone would actually want to be female.
Some of us are just perverse I guess :laugh: But can I say WOW - to your new avatar. Huge difference already and really looking good!
Quote from: rejennyrated on October 12, 2010, 02:29:16 PM
Some of us are just perverse I guess :laugh: But can I say WOW - to your new avatar. Huge difference already and really looking good!
Thanks, Jenny ;D I'm beginning to believe that I'm going to be much cuter as a boy.
Quote from: kyril on October 08, 2010, 04:03:49 PM
Yes. Bigtime. Anyone anyone made any observation about sex differences, I would argue like the most obnoxiously militant feminist.
haha, same. this was me as a teenager. i used to argue that gender was just a "social construct." and while i still agree that the gender
binary is a social construct, i realize now that i was in total denial to believe that gender played no role in how we feel about ourselves.
Quote from: M.Grimm on October 09, 2010, 11:05:09 PM
Yes. Because I desperately needed to believe I didn't have to transition in order to be myself.
i think this was a huge part of it for me.
Quote from: Aegir on October 09, 2010, 08:52:13 AM
I "did" and still "do". I wouldn't call it denial- we're more alike than different and pretending otherwise just makes it a lot harder on everybody.
I haven't transitioned yet but I wanted to reply and say this is exactly how I feel. Yes, there are physiological differences, and social and cultural, the last two don't NEED to exist. It just happened, but that doesn't make it right. And yes, people act like their stereotypes, but that doesn't allow for justification.
My outlook is, there are different bodies with different parts, but everyone acts like a HUMAN. I don't really see the binary anymore, because I know there can be women with male parts and men with female parts, and personalities vary so widely, there is not POINT in trying to make a binary. I am happy with people acting like people, and the way they act isn't always 'right' or 'good', but they are still people.
Quote from: Phate on October 12, 2010, 05:59:23 PM
I haven't transitioned yet but I wanted to reply and say this is exactly how I feel. Yes, there are physiological differences, and social and cultural, the last two don't NEED to exist. It just happened, but that doesn't make it right. And yes, people act like their stereotypes, but that doesn't allow for justification.
My outlook is, there are different bodies with different parts, but everyone acts like a HUMAN. I don't really see the binary anymore, because I know there can be women with male parts and men with female parts, and personalities vary so widely, there is not POINT in trying to make a binary. I am happy with people acting like people, and the way they act isn't always 'right' or 'good', but they are still people.
This.
I still do feel that way - in fact, the further I progress in transition the more blurred my perception of gender becomes. Maybe once the worst's over I'll settle down and the lines will become more visible - or maybe they'll evaporate completely.
I definitely did and still do. It validated me because I didn't feel so far separated from the male sex, which I identified with, and I didn't feel that transitioning would be impossible (as I did know I would transition from a young age). I'm still annoyed by discussions about gender roles and stereotypes, which it would seem people around me like to discuss. They'll say this of a man: "Oh, he's such a guy--he can read a map perfectly but gets lost without it"; or "she's such a girl, she can do five things at once." I hate these generalizations because they inwardly make me doubt myself, and fear that I am being doubted. Indeed, your judgments of the world reflect yourself far more than they reflect the object of your judgment, and every time I feel anger for cisgender people; every time I try to narrow the gap between the sexes or balk at gender stereotypes, I realize it's just my own struggle reflected in those around me.
With that said, I really do think we need less distance between the sexes. I truly do not believe there is as much difference as people perceive there to be. As for gendered behaviors, or simply behaviors in general... There should be far more room for individual interpretation of what it means to be one thing or another.
men are men and woman are women and never the twain shall meet apart from perhaps 5% of the population who do opposite sex and gender to some degree.
but you all knew I'd push this line? :D
Pre-Transition I claimed that men and women were extremely different (with a very misogynist slant) - however I was not a woman. I was in no way "one of them", never was, never will be, never could be, and never wanted to be. I was exempt, as I wasn't really female.
However, I presented nothing to the "outside world" to back that up with (unless you pushed me to the point of rage, at which time I had been known to punch the concrete walls of my apartment and exclaim loudly that I was actually a gay man in the wrong body, and I was only presenting female because I was being paid to. Which was exactly the absolute truth I didn't want to be responsible for).
I went to shrinks and all to try to overcome these views and accept my birth sex, however I never could.
I wasn't always that angry and misogynistic of course - it built up over years of being on the wrong side of the divide.
I still think men and women are different beyond social constructs, though now there isn't the seething rage involved. I've come to think it's a good thing. It'd be boring if we were all the same.
Women are still an alien species to me, but I'm not conceited enough to think that my way of going about things is always the best way. Sometimes it is, but there are some things the aliens are more suited to than I am :laugh:.
We're all human, but I think we're all human in different ways. Makes for a more balanced world. "Different" doesn't necessarily mean "better" or "worse" - it just means "not the same".
It's the social constructs that makes us attribute "superior" and "inferior" labels to things - which is where I think it all gets unstuck.
Quote from: rejennyrated on October 08, 2010, 03:34:14 PM
I absolutely still do! :D
With such a TINY difference it was uber annoying to feel so strongly that I was on the wrong side of what from my POV was a virtually non existent gap! :laugh: It made no sense that it was so important - but it was!
Says it all ... same here.
Definitely. From about 5-13 I was really girly because my mom was a firm believer that little and young girls wear dresses. I remember thinking to myself "Why am I dressing to this extreme? What does it prove?" So in eighth or ninth grade, I just started dressing however I liked. (which was androgynous) I always knew that the so called differences could be blurred over, or tied into each sex.
This was an awesome question.
No.
I've always placed men and women at completely different levels. Whenever pressed with the differences between them in personal experience, I would default to claim that I was a dude. Though I meant it in a funny way, I see now that it held some truth.
I used to be such a hardcore feminist in my high school that the teachers hated me. I could beat up a person that would told me something could not be done by a woman. Then I realized I took it too much as an attack on myself and I calmed down. ;)