I have always been curious about this. If a biological female started a fight with you, would you fight back or not? I'm sorry if this sounds offensive but I've always wondered if you would. I know it's wrong to fight but what if it was self-defense?
I need to sleep on this one. I see myself more and more on an equal playing field (strength-wise) with the passage of time on HRT. If I'm presenting as female, why should I have to adhere to a male standard? This is RLE after all, and I'd defend myself. She started the fight, well, she chose the wrong person, as I'm tired of never fighting back, and I would defend myself. I have never ever gotten into a physical fight with anyone before, as I've used my powers of passive aggressive behaviour to inflict as much mental damage upon the other party as possible until the conflict is resolved (I can keep this up for years).
Yes,
Any physical threat is a threat to my existance. I would make sure they regret it.
I have the same problem. I'm a guy but I'm biologically female so would it be wrong to hit a girl?
Quote from: Nicky on October 14, 2010, 10:33:47 PM
Yes,
Any physical threat is a threat to my existance. I would make sure they regret it.
I wouldn't take offense to it if I saw a MTF get into a fight with a biological female because MTF's are females and there are some bio girls who can beat the hell out of bio guys and some bio girls are as strong as some boys.
Well, I think it is always ok to defend yourself no matter who is attacking you.
As it stands I probably am still significantly stronger than a lot of woman my size, sucks to the person on the receiving end is all I can say.
You don't need to worry about what is fair when someone attacks you. You either run, or cause them damage in whatever way you can in the most effective way possible.
If I was still in my full male strength, yeah I would still fight tooth and nail. And really if you saw the size of some of the pacific island woman here you really would never think to go soft on them!! :o
Depends on the size of the "Attacking female" ;). There are some GGirls that I wouldn't mess with regardless.
But if it came down to brass tacks, I'd agree with Nicky's response above.
I think this whole "it's wrong to hit a girl" thing is sexist. It's wrong to hit anyone regardless of your gender or the gender of the person being hit, unless you are defending yourself.
Small, large, male, female. It does not matter. If I am threatened, I will defend myself. All bets are off and street fighting comes into play.
Stronger or not. It comes to how tricky and sneaky I am.
Everytime I almost hit a girl, I feel like I'm hitting someone fragile (Not trying to be sexist) but that's how I feel and I just can't do it. If it's a boy then I'll just punch him in the face. If someone was attacking me I would defend myself, of course, but I asked some bio male friends of mine and they said they didn't care, they would NEVER hit a girl.
^^ Weird I felt the same way, now that my strength is completely gone in comparison (on spiro) I feel like some women could be stronger than me. While some women do appear fragile, it's just different because I don't see them as fragile like they were. Before I would be afraid to even bump into them lol... to break them or something.
Actually no, I would not hit another woman (after I transition, hormones, and surgeries and what not) if she was fighting with me. I will just not fight period, I'll just deal with it the most civil way I can without getting physical. I can't really imagine it though, I think people who fight without a really good reason are silly, and I have a high pain tolerance.
I never was in the position of being in a fight with a guy in my life, so I doubt that will happen as a woman.
If it were a guy (I'm transition here), I would try to defend myself and leave the place, but I don't think I would hit back. All honesty, even if that sounds wimpy, I am just thinking of my mind frame (if that happen).
I do not buy, never have and never ever will buy this sexist crap that "It is wrong to hit a WOMAN"
That is patronising and arrogant male supremacist rubbish of the first order.
It is wrong to hit ANYONE irrespective of gender folks!
However if you are acting in self defense then it is of course justified.
Yes most women are weaker than most men, but there are always exceptions. Yes most women are less aggressive but again there are notable exceptions. Even so I find this idea that men are so vastly *superior* physically that they must, out of their largess and evident superiority, voluntarily restrain themselves to never hit a woman grossly offensive, to the point where I am likely to belt the next man who says it to my face without warning! :laugh: and I am not a violent woman...
Seriously folks. It is an insult, both to women, and to the very many gentle and non aggressive men to suggest that women should have some sort of automatic protection merely on the basis of what lies between the legs.
It is wrong to hit anyone weaker than you, and pretty pointless to hit anyone stronger! Therefore it should socially unacceptable to hit ANYONE (other than for the purpose of self defense) period!
It depends. Fighting is never right but when backed into a corner with no way out then it is the only way to defend yourself. However, if there is a way out that doesn't involve throwning punches one should take it. It is all about measuring up pros and cons. There are some wimpy men and some muscular women. I wouldn't fancy my changes with a leather-butch-dyke regardless of my presentation and being on HRT or not.
I've observed that, when males attack, they want to assert their domnance. They live in a world where their position is important to them. They rarely want to share the same social position, even with a close friend. If they feel their position is being undermined, they will try to find a way to ressert it. It may simply be banter, perhaps even cruel banter. It may extend to agressive talk, threats, squaring off, or it may extend to violence.
At each stage, if they find their opponent is a match for them or stronger, they will usually stop that line. Only later, attempting to move to the next, in their effort to reassert themselves. Sometimes, depending upon the individual, once they meet their match at any stage, they may decide to accept that. Also, if the opponent matches the attacker, but restrains themselves, not asserting any further, the attacker will usually accept his situation.
Equally, they may entirely leave the peer group. I tend to believe this is the principal reason many walk away from their jobs.
It is also important to note that the other males in the peer group will generally fit in with the relative positions, established between two men.
Males, generally, will stop attacking, once they feeling their dominance has been acknowledged or they have suffered entire defeat.
When females attack, they want to humiliate. Generally they have little problem with sharing their social position with others. Most females acknowledge others as equals within the peer group.
But they resent what seems to them, to be anyone asserting themselves over them or seeking to undermine them. Also, if they believe their own position puts them above others, they will attack those they believe, have failed to acknowledge their seniority.
Females seem to have an objective on the amount of humiliation they feel they need to impose. But when they do get to that point of humiliation, they will usually stop. Though they will generally regard the person, as having a lower status to them, from that point and will attack again if that is not acknowledged.
In my own experience, I usually have little problem with males. I am generally happy to acknowledge them as dominant. Though I found, when I was younger, that some very insecure males might become overtly sexual. In these cases, I usually needed to assert some level of my own position.
Females are a bit more difficult. They generally expect me to act like a male, to some extent at least. Once I have allowed them to assert themselves, my own situation in relation to them remains subordinate.
Other females, in the peer group will usually remain unaffected. But some may seek to assert themselves individually.
Where females physically attack, this generally is a much more serious situation. If I don't defend, they will continue to attack until they have achieved the level of humiliation they seek. This is generally quite extreme.
If I defend, since I'm am percieved as male, they will almost invariably end up summoning assistance from an assertive male. Failing that, they will summon other females, especially subordinate females. In that case, my position will end up being subordinate to the least subordinate.
I appreciate the notions that violence is never justified. Fine words but not a lot of help when you're being attacked.
Personally, if I feel there is any risk of violence, I leave.
Never think that girls cannot inflict a great deal of damage to you. If one gets in your face and tries to strike you make her regret it! You have every right to defend yourself.
Randi
Yes.....
My arms are tiny, I wouldn't be surprised if I was below average female strength, so yeah, I would fight back.
ashley it is generally not a good idea to fight someone stronger than you. ya so the streetsmart thing to do is to get help.
anyway i think it's a good thing for girls to learn some martial arts...handy in a fight where you want to control the situation.
I would be very careful in this area. Because, if we hit a girl as a MTF and say people know we are MTF, some man may assume its ok to hit us and use it as an excuse to do some serious violence to us because they don't like TGs. Mind you this can happen anyway, but some people just need an excuse. I would try to not stoop to their level and diffuse the situation if possible.
The OP asked if you were attacked is it alright to fight back. They did not ask if it was alright for you to hit without provocation.
To defend ones self is a totally different than starting something yourself.
I agree if you have no way to prevent the attack, then defend yourself of course, but still even in defense be careful and do what you can to remove yourself from the situation. You never know what the girls psycho boyfriend might do because you hit (even in defense) his girl, especially if he knows your trans. A guy that may only try and separate his girl from fighting another genetic girl may have no qualms about beating us to a pulp.
Quote from: Sadie on October 15, 2010, 09:59:47 AM
I would be very careful in this area. Because, if we hit a girl as a MTF and say people know we are MTF, some man may assume its ok to hit us and use it as an excuse to do some serious violence to us because they don't like TGs. Mind you this can happen anyway, but some people just need an excuse. I would try to not stoop to their level and diffuse the situation if possible.
Anyone who doesn't like us, and would be willing to hit us, already are willing too.
And I've said in other threads just how tremendously I don't care what precedents my actions set.
Quote from: milktea on October 15, 2010, 09:12:04 AM
ashley it is generally not a good idea to fight someone stronger than you. ya so the streetsmart thing to do is to get help.
anyway i think it's a good thing for girls to learn some martial arts...handy in a fight where you want to control the situation.
The street smart thing to do.. is to use your brain and go by the situation. But regardless, the question as I understood it, was would you have an ethical issue fighting back against a genetic female. Presumably as opposed to holding back as many men will because of the undeniable fact that the average man can inflict significantly more damage than the average woman.
My answer is no, because I don't feel it generally applies in our case.
[Firefly] Jayne Cobb: "I'll kill a man in a fair fight. Or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight. Or if he bothers me. Or if there's a woman. Or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly when I'm gettin' paid."
Seriously though, if I were attacked by ANYONE I'd fight back, but I think that my fighting strategy would be different with a woman, or a small guy. A full out "punch you in the face" brawl is obviously to be avoided, and if they were weaker than me to the point that I could restrain them rather than exchange blows, I'd try for this.
I agree that the "Never hit a woman," thing is sexist because no one should be hitting anyone, but, to be honest, my reaction to being physically threatened varies depending on the perceived strength of the person. If it's a guy who looks like he could seriously hurt me, all he has to do is act like he's a threat to my physical safety and I'll firmly push him away, trying not to hurt him, of course. For example, if a guy corners me and I have no escape route and he towers over me and stands too close and tries to touch me while speaking menacingly, I'll give him a strong shove and get away. I don't want to hurt anyone, but I want to make it clear that people can't get away with trying to intimidate me like that. If it was a girl who looked strong, I might react the same way. But if the person didn't look very strong, I'd probably be gentler with them, again because my goal would be to defend myself, not to hurt them.
Quote from: Kentrie on October 14, 2010, 10:23:48 PM
I have always been curious about this. If a biological female started a fight with you, would you fight back or not? I'm sorry if this sounds offensive but I've always wondered if you would. I know it's wrong to fight but what if it was self-defense?
If she started it, i would finish it~ I would drop that biotch~ ^_^b
Quote from: Kentrie on October 14, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
I have the same problem. I'm a guy but I'm biologically female so would it be wrong to hit a girl?
Guys dont hit girls, if your a guy, then you just seem like a scumbag for beating up a girl. If your FTM your a guy, you have the brain of a guy, and unless your a scumbag of a guy (which some are) you wouldn't hit a girl.
A lot of people say its wrong to hit anyone, that is not correct. Sometimes its the appropriate thing to do, to strike out of hatred is different then to strike to save your life or another's. If someone is attacking me I will fight back and its justified if my life or well being are in danger. Words are are well and fine, but when they fail, i am ready to throw down. I am not strong by any means but I will hit and fight people a lot stronger if it means survival.
It is always easier or less work to run than fight. But let it be known that if someone cuts off my flight path or is quicker than me I will make them regret it. Yes I do have a martial arts background and will not hesitate to use it.
Randi
I've had to defend myself from guys from time to time but haven't really had any trouble from gals
I'm not sure what I would do... I hope I never have to find out ;)
Quote from: LightBulbs on October 15, 2010, 06:24:43 PM
Also I believe MTFs can generally fight better than GGs anyway, regardless of their muscle mass - good coordination etc.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that post HRT MTF's have any above average abilities in coordination? ::)
The best defence is a good sprint start.
If you're asking because I am biologically male, would I hit a biological female? That's sort the wrong way of looking at it.
Besides, no I wouldn't. I would do what I do in every fight, run away as fast as I can.
Enjoy...
the french castle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7qxqvjTbu0#ws)
;D
Of course we have the right to defend ourselves. But make sure you don't put yourself in a worse situation.
Lovely post, Virginia :laugh:
I read recently that the reason Monty Python used the coconuts for horses was 'accidental' the budget was so poor they found that they couldn't afford the horses.
Cindy
Quote from: Helena on October 15, 2010, 06:47:54 PM
The best defence is a good sprint start.
... and with apologies to Virginia for shamelessly nicking her idea and building upon it this:
Monty Python Holy Grail The tale of Sir Robin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4SJ0xR2_bQ#)
Though as anyone who has confronted me knows these days I am rather more for standing my ground and fighting than for running away. Sadly running away only stores up problems for later.
And often, when a girl starts a fight, with her male friend, or even some male nearby, she's using you to get his attention.
Quote from: rejennyrated on October 16, 2010, 03:57:28 AM
Though as anyone who has confronted me knows these days I am rather more for standing my ground and fighting than for running away. Sadly running away only stores up problems for later.
I've always been non confrontational, especially in the physical arena as I've never been particularly strong and tough. I'm also a pacifist, which is largely the result of being brought up as a quaker, and really do see violence as the ultimate last resort, I'm far more likely to try and negotiate myself out of a situation.
Quote from: Helena on October 16, 2010, 07:26:50 AM
I've always been non confrontational, especially in the physical arena as I've never been particularly strong and tough. I'm also a pacifist, which is largely the result of being brought up as a quaker, and really do see violence as the ultimate last resort, I'm far more likely to try and negotiate myself out of a situation.
Ah yes but now we are down to pure semantics. When I say stand my ground and fight I regard negotiation as the intelligent persons way of fighting. I am not necessarily talking fistycuffs - I am talking about having the metal to stand your ground and gain a just solution.
A really good negotiator can inflict a far more devastating defeat than a huge army! Therefore negotiation really is just the intelligent persons way of fighting! :laugh:
Quote from: spacial on October 15, 2010, 06:33:36 AM
I've observed that, when males attack, they want to assert their domnance. They live in a world where their position is important to them. They rarely want to share the same social position, even with a close friend. If they feel their position is being undermined, they will try to find a way to ressert it. It may simply be banter, perhaps even cruel banter. It may extend to agressive talk, threats, squaring off, or it may extend to violence.
Women do the same thing, our culture is just less likely to acknowledge it when it happens. We're just socialized not to see it as "a struggle for dominance" when women do it. It's like the study that was done in the 70's. They had video footage of an infant crying and asked two groups what emotion the infant was expressing. They told the first group it was a baby boy and the group said the infant was expressing anger. They told the second group it was a baby girl and the group said the infant was expressing fear. Our culture has biased interpretations of actions based on the perceived sex of the individual committing the action. Also, there are over 50 studies that show women commit just as much domestic violence as men, on all levels of severity. I think it's interesting that it's both sexist and wrong for a man to hit a woman, yet also sexist and wrong for him to not hit a women simply because she's a woman. It really goes to show the no win situation men are in now in our society (Western society in general?). And I think it's interesting how so many feminists claim we live in a culture that condones violence against women, when so many men still have the view that it's never okay to hit a woman. Doh. Pesky empirical evidence, always getting in the way of ideologies.
Quote
When females attack, they want to humiliate. Generally they have little problem with sharing their social position with others. Most females acknowledge others as equals within the peer group.
Well that simply isn't true. There is a massive amount of evidence that contradicts this. Not to mention that women definitely don't treat me as their equal when I use the women's fitting rooms or women's restrooms. In fact, I experience far more discrimination from women than I do from men. I don't buy the "women are innately more egalitarian and less discriminatory" crap. There's too much evidence that shows it simply isn't true.
I would have to disengage and leave, even though I would be much happier kicking her ass.
As a former member in the man club and an individule with martial arts training I do not believe that a judge would look kindly on me for whooping on a natal female.
Interesting question.
I think I would cry like a baby when I got away from such a woman.
Quote from: rejennyrated on October 16, 2010, 07:56:18 AM
Ah yes but now we are down to pure semantics. When I say stand my ground and fight I regard negotiation as the intelligent persons way of fighting. I am not necessarily talking fistycuffs - I am talking about having the metal to stand your ground and gain a just solution.
A really good negotiator can inflict a far more devastating defeat than a huge army! Therefore negotiation really is just the intelligent persons way of fighting! :laugh:
That's what I thought you meant, I didn't really think that you'd ever stand there, a smashed bottle in either hand, a snarl on your face and screaming "come on, lets ave it you [expletive]!"
Quote from: Izumi on October 15, 2010, 11:21:31 AM
Guys dont hit girls, if your a guy, then you just seem like a scumbag for beating up a girl. If your FTM your a guy, you have the brain of a guy, and unless your a scumbag of a guy (which some are) you wouldn't hit a girl.
I've had a few girls who have tried to fight me. They were saying "I really want to kick your ass" and I just said "ok" because they think I'm going to fight a girl because they think I'm a lesbian and they get mad when I won't try to attack them. It's amusing really, I'm just looking at them like "I'm not going to hit you"
Physical violence is something I would try to avoid in any way possible. So I would try to get away. But I would defend myself if they really wouldn't leave me alone, but even then I would avoid hitting (I am rather strong and would hate it if I hurt someone badly), instead preferring to pin them down until they're calmed down (I know some judo).
Quote from: valyn_faer on October 16, 2010, 10:31:19 AM
Women do the same thing, our culture is just less likely to acknowledge it when it happens. We're just socialized not to see it as "a struggle for dominance" when women do it. It's like the study that was done in the 70's. They had video footage of an infant crying and asked two groups what emotion the infant was expressing. They told the first group it was a baby boy and the group said the infant was expressing anger. They told the second group it was a baby girl and the group said the infant was expressing fear. Our culture has biased interpretations of actions based on the perceived sex of the individual committing the action.
Also, there are over 50 studies that show women commit just as much domestic violence as men, on all levels of severity. I think it's interesting that it's both sexist and wrong for a man to hit a woman, yet also sexist and wrong for him to not hit a women simply because she's a woman. It really goes to show the no win situation men are in now in our society (Western society in general?). And I think it's interesting how so many feminists claim we live in a culture that condones violence against women, when so many men still have the view that it's never okay to hit a woman. Doh. Pesky empirical evidence, always getting in the way of ideologies. Well that simply isn't true. There is a massive amount of evidence that contradicts this. Not to mention that women definitely don't treat me as their equal when I use the women's fitting rooms or women's restrooms. In fact, I experience far more discrimination from women than I do from men. I don't buy the "women are innately more egalitarian and less discriminatory" crap. There's too much evidence that shows it simply isn't true.
I recall that study. There were a number of different experimets, all of which were very interesting in themselves.
The problem with it was that it sought conclusions about our society. Whereas, what it actually discovered were mannerisms and behaviours common to humans in general.
That is a very different point.
feminists, almost always make the same mistake, claiming that features and behaviours emerge from our culture, whereas, they are generally common to all humanity.
The greatest problem is that most of these studies are done in the US. They tend to take, as their bench mark, the so called native societies, Inuit, N American natives, south American natives. These cultures are heavly contrived, largely becase they were utterly decimated, only rebuilding afterward. One of the more silly claims about the Inuit, for example, is they have no word for war. In reality, that is as relevant as saying Scots Gaelic, (ancient), has no word for no.
Domestic violence is also common to all human groups. It is a different condition altogether, from the situations we are discussing here.
I do thank you for your input. It's refreshing to have an exchange of views with someone also interested in society as a subject.