I have been think about this little topic more than a little bit lately.
Been bi-gender I have both a male and a female side.
I know that I Jillieann would jump at the change to leave this body for a female body and never look back. I'd leave JR with our lovely family in a heart beat. Because he loves our family and would do a great job at being husband, dad and grandfather without me. And JR would be better off if I left too. I do like him and I love our family but I feel so trapped. At one point over this last year I tried to destroy JR by denying his existence like he had mine for more years than I want to admit.
JR has been nice to me recently and allowed me allot of freedom but .............
He is a good guy but it is really rough sharing this body together.
You see I would like to transition but JR is just happy being a male except for my feeling that keep upsetting him. He often response to what I feel because as a woman, my feelings, emotions, are stronger than his.
I know to some of you this may sound nutty, and that maybe I need to be committed or something
But I just had to express my feelings and be truthful about it. In fact JR is just now realizing how strong I feel about this.
Compromise is what JR and I have to do to survive and the thought of find another body is pure science fiction.
:(
Jillieann
Sorry, I don't think I get it. ??? Do you feel like 2 entirely different people or was it 2 sides to the same person? Assuming it's 2 different people, is each aware of what the other is doing at the time while in control? Who decides when to swap out personalities? I thought I understood it, but now I'm more confused than ever. Jillieann/JR, would you mind explaining a little better? I really would like to know more.
Melissa
:icon_hug: I honestly can't believe that you would be better off without JR and that he would be better off without you. It sounds to me like you're both hurting. You've each tried to destroy the other. It sounds like you two need to start healing.
This may sound stupid, but have you tried writing down what you like about each other and what you don't like? I think if you each realize just how much you two actually value each other and need each other, it might be easier to coexist. My therapy words are failing me at the moment but I think things will be easier for you when you each realize just how special the other is. (There's a word that expresses that last bit just a little better; if you know what I mean please substitute it.)
I know my case is different than yours. For me it's kind of like two spirits fused at birth. But I know that when I stopped thinking of my female side as the part of me that was wrong and really began to understand just how it makes me uniquely me and how I would be lost without it I began to feel so much better about myself. Learning to value my female side is making me a better person if for no other reason than I'm finally feeling free to be me. And I'm really trying to stop thinking of my male side as "the real me" just because it matches my physical body and I was raised as a male. I have to respect both sides (which is different than what I think people think I'm doing when I say I'm keeping both sides in balance) or I'm not happy as me.
You're right, you and JR have to compromise. I think that will be easier to do when you're actively building each other up instead of tearing each other down.
Hi Jilliean,
I have always worried when you stay you have two different sides and need to comprimise. You are one beatiful person and I wish you would think that way. I can see why you are torn in two - you have a great family that you want to keep yet you feminine side needs to be recognised. Just enjoy who you are.
Alice
It's easy to see the rainbow.... getting to its base is the difficult part! I think that is the problem that Jilliann is having issues with. You just can't make a decision about this, can you doll? I understand. You have responsibilities and commitments you have made that you feel cannot be broken. I don't envy you. But many of us (including me) have had to face these same decisions. And you are well aware of the results. We have lost an aweful lot in the process.
I want you to know and feel that you have a support system here. You are welcome to cry on my shoulder any time. I've got some pretty asorbant shoulders.
My best to you doll. It's a tough burden to bear, any way you look at it.
Melissa,
Each of us is very much similar but different and yet we are the same person. I notices that I, Jillieann, likes going to the mall JR is okay with it but it doesn't thrill him. We both are drive to accomplishing a task we set our mind to, but JR like PC Tech work and I like working on the PC, (using a program to complete a task.
Yes we talk to each our feelings are shared and memories too. At times we even joke with each other. Most everything we do is shared.
The weird thing is I, JR, don't always know all of what Jillieann is thinking and till it is shared. For that matter until I say it or write it down I don't always no all that I'm thinking either. But sometimes we can hid from one another sort of. It's like one of us goes to sleep while the other is still awake.
As far as who is in control that often happens instantly. The one that seem to have the best abilities in a give situation comes forward or what I don't like is the one that other expect to deal with. Let me explain when I working on as a PC Tech, JR is in control, when dealing with people Jillieann is usually in control. My wife doesn't like Jillieann so she (Jillieann) is very shy around her. I hope this helps you to understand Melissa.
Casey thank you for the sharing what I like about each side of me. Wow that is a good idea. We will try doing that.
Thank you Alice for the kind words. I do really know that I need all of me to be complete and if Jillieann left I... we......... she is where my compassion and my emotions live. And I really do need JR he is where my strength and hope lives. We will work this out but just needed to write down some of this internal struggle that we are going through.
Dear Tink thank you and I hope your right about the rainbow. We have already come alone way down the road to discovering who I am.
Jillieann wanted to share her, our feelings, and it is good that she can feel free to do just that. It helps the healing to share openly and honestly.
Oh Jillieann want me to tell you that we feel better now so don't worry, but that is not true we really don't feel allot better. But we are both determined to get through this, so we will.
:) :)
Jillieann/JR
Thanks J/J, it certainly helps somewhat. I guess I want to understand how other people are, so I can help relate it to myself. I guess I feel something similar, but I wouldn't call it male/female, but more like dominant/submissive and I switch modes depending on the particular circumstances. The dominant role has leadership quality to it, where as the submissive role tends to be kind and passive. I'm sure I've shown both sides on the board. Now saying that, I don't feel like I'm 2 different people, nor male or whatever, it's just more like I switch between roles that work out well in the situation I'm dealing with. The thing is, I always feel like I am and identify as a female. Anyways, thanks for the explanation.
Melissa
I wanted to contribute another bigender perspective for those who don't feel they understand so well.
A bigendered person identifies as having seperate male and female personas, like two people sharing one body.
The association between the male and female personas of a bigendered individual is can be different for each person. For the most part, how the two parts developed together and how close they feel to each other dictates the amount of internal conflict that is experienced. Ranges from full out hatred to absolute love can be experienced between these two based on the person and each bigendered person can move either direction growing closer or further apart as they proceed through life.
In the case of Jilleanne and JR, they earlier experienced a desire to remove the other one which has caused some animosity that will take some time to heal. They would agree they are making wonderful progress towards working together. Ideally though, as it stands now, they feel they might be happier if they could be seperate for a number of reasons, including their wife not really appreciating Jilleanne as well as Jilleannes desire to be a physical woman. Forgive me Jilleanne and JR if I did not do your situation justice.
Jilleanne/JR and me have discussed whether we would get a procedure done were it possible to give each of our two personas their own bodies. Where as they, felt that such an operation were it possible would be beneficial to them, I felt significantly different. Even were it possible, I wouldn't want Marq and Mia to be seperate. Having lived my entire life in pretty constant balance, we would feel like part of us were always missing. We need each other more then we could ever describe. In cases were Mia's patience keeps Marq from getting upset, that check wouldn't be there. Likewise all the times that Marq's straightfoward nature has kept Mia from getting lost in the details would also be missed.
Further on that topic, we're confident that were we seperate in body, we wouldn't want to leave the others company for our love for each other is absolute. This would displace our poor wife from the relationship since she would not be able to come between us. But thats getting into something entirely different.
On a postive note, although Jilleann and JR are working their problems out, everytime I have the fortune to talk to them, they seem to be growing closer every time and I can only stand and applaud their progress as I watch it. No they aren't crazy, people find it too easy to dismiss something difficult to understand as being wrong, when time and time again, our differences are what define us.
Marq and Mia
Thank you Marq and Mia.
Yes you got me pegged. ;D
But sometime I don't feel like i'm going forward. :'(
I have enjoy many a conversation on Messenger with them.
It is nice to know that others have felt simlar to me.
:) :)
Jillieann/JR
Hey no one has metion my signature picture of the two reindeer snow ball fighting I think it sums me up.
One JR and one is Jillieann. Owww I put JR first. ;D
:) :)
Jillieann/ Jr
I think I figured out a little more about what I was describing. It does kind of feel like there's 2 people inside me, one masculine, one feminine, but they are both female, which works out well bodywise. ;D The masculine one tends to be much more logical and the feminine one more emotional. One thing is that the logical one side is able to take a broad look at things without plugging in emotions and the feminine one is more empathetic and intuitive. Now one thing is they seem to be present at the same time and work in a cooperative manner and the result is me. I think having this complexity inside me is a major reason I haven't needed much therapy. Both sides are able to counsel each other. They take turns being the one in charge depending on the situation and which one is tired. Sometimes I can actually separate the 2 sides and actually have 2 simultaneous, but separate thought processes going on. It's really eerie when I do that and usually pretty draining at the same time. Also, many times I can have them work on the same process and the speed at which I think can be downright scary.
Now the way I stated this puts things into a very good perspective. It's kind of like being a double transsexual :P because both needed to transition. But the need to transition was still there badly. So, now that I am almost done with transition, I have been feeling much better.
So, I think that describes my slight confusion about myself really well.
Melissa
QuoteI think I figured out a little more about what I was describing. It does kind of feel like there's 2 people inside me, one masculine, one feminine, but they are both female, which works out well bodywise. The masculine one tends to be much more logical and the feminine one more emotional. One thing is that the logical one side is able to take a broad look at things without plugging in emotions and the feminine one is more empathetic and intuitive.
Wow Melissa. Very interesting post, you may very well be bigendered too. You definitely share many significant similarities with us.
QuoteNow one thing is they seem to be present at the same time and work in a cooperative manner and the result is me. I think having this complexity inside me is a major reason I haven't needed much therapy. Both sides are able to counsel each other. They take turns being the one in charge depending on the situation and which one is tired. Sometimes I can actually separate the 2 sides and actually have 2 simultaneous, but separate thought processes going on. It's really eerie when I do that and usually pretty draining at the same time. Also, many times I can have them work on the same process and the speed at which I think can be downright scary.
Also Wow, I feel the same way. I'm usually in a very good mood all the time because the two sides balance out my emotions. Neat.
QuoteIt's kind of like being a double transsexual because both needed to transition.
I had never heard of that before. Very interesting idea.
So yeah Melissa check out some of the other posts that me, Jilleanne/JR, Vanessa V, and Simone/Paul have posted and let us know if you find any astounding parallels.
Marq and Mia
Ok, but like I said, both sides are female, so I don't know if that would technically be "bi-gendered" unless the gender is irrelevant. Also, I do read a lot of those posts, which is one reason I was reading this one. ;)
Melissa
Quote from: Jillieann/JR on December 22, 2006, 06:46:21 AM
Hey no one has metion my signature picture of the two reindeer snow ball fighting I think it sums me up.
One JR and one is Jillieann. Owww I put JR first. ;D
:) :)
Jillieann/ Jr
aww, that's cute.
Wow, that's really interesting Melissa. And your complexity may very well be the reason (or prime reason anyway) you haven't needed much therapy. They say that people who embody polar opposites (whether seperate personas or one fused persona) tend to cope better since they have two different ways they can handle a situation.
The other thing is I don't identify as androgyne in either looks or personality.
Melissa
But that isn't necessary. I would think that having the polar opposites you have would make it quite reasonable to see yourself as two people. Gender is quite a different issue altogether. Someone who is both extroverted and introverted might see themselves as two people too. It's just that for androgynes one persona is male and the other is female. It's kind of a gender quirk. Duality of nature has nothing to do with gender.
Hmm. Is that about as clear as mud?
Quote from: Casey on December 22, 2006, 04:08:19 PM
Hmm. Is that about as clear as mud?
lol yeah.
Melissa
Hmmm. The posts here have really made me think. I definitely have a masculine and a feminine side.
The masculine side is very defined and so is the feminine. The masculine side is ridiculously male and the female side ridiculously female. But I identify as a male in a female body.
I am transsexual, but not a stereotypical male. I've done things that if people knew about them would say I'm not trans, but I am. I've come to the conclusion that, while I'm a man who was born/raised female, it's not as simple as that. This thread has caught my interest.
Hi Jillianne/JR,
I beleive we are all bigendered. We are all made from one man and one woman. We are then taught by both men and women. It's no wonder we feel both feminine and masculine at the same time. As for personnas or how we present ourselves, that is a totally different thing.
I had a pretend male character that I played. I played the role based on what I learned about the masculine. I don't have most of those feelings, but I do have some. I don't think things like logical thinking are a masculine domain just as I don't beleive that the ability to nurture is a feminine thing. Woman can and do think logically and men can and do nurture thier wives and children. I beleive it's just as part of humanity.
This gets all confused when we don't feel we are feeling what others with the same kind of body as us, feels. It was apparent to me from a very early age that I was not like other boys. I had three older brothers and two older sisters and it was clear to me, I was not like my brothers who were just one and two years older than me, respectively.
We are all two people because we were made from two people. We feel both feminine and masculine because we were made from both feminine and masculine. This has nothing to do with our gender identity. Just accept it and enjoy it.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Jill,
i know exactly what you are saying ... i think
QuoteCompromise is what JR and I have to do to survive and the thought of find another body is pure science fiction.
Sad
I've made many compromises in my short lifetime.. For good and bad.....
what does your heart tell you ??...........not your gender?
Ricki
We must be very cautious not to take the term bigendered for what it looks like it might mean in a literary sense. The description of a bigendered individual as quoted from wikipedia is:
Bigender (bi+gender) is a tendency to move between masculine and feminine gender-typed behaviour depending on context, expressing a distinctly male persona and a distinctly female persona.
While an androgynous person retains the same gender-typed behaviour across situations, the bigendered person purposely changes their gender-role behaviour for the situation.
So bigendered described a much smaller subset of people, and from talking with those who identify as bigendered, we all exhibit very similiar experiences and feelings as Jilleann and JR will agree.
Melissa,
I'm curious to hear why you feel that both of your personas are both female if one demonstrates obvious masculine traits.
Having a male and female persona, there are really 3 categories of preference of sex. One is to prefer to look like and be the male sex because for whatever reason the female persona is ok with that. The second is to look like and be the female sex because once again the male persona is comfortable with that, and third would be to look like and/or be a combination of male and female sex. It would not be unheard of to just have male and female personas, be born a male, and prefer to be the female sex physically and make efforts to change it such as through operations and hormones.
In the case of Nero, it would seem were they bigendered that they could very well be content transitioning because they identify as the male sex though they were been born female.
As far as duality of nature goes, yes someone can have duality of nature, but in the case of bigendered people, their duality is from having male and female seperate but together.
Mia and Marq
Yes what Marq and Mia said.
Elizabeth I do not believe everyone is Bi-gender. We as humans may have what we consider both masculine and feminine traits. And more so here in the transgender community as many of us had to suffer because of being born in a different gender then the body is.
And as Melissa said
QuoteSometimes I can actually separate the 2 sides and actually have 2 simultaneous, but separate thought processes going on. It's really eerie when I do that and usually pretty draining at the same time. Also, many times I can have them work on the same process and the speed at which I think can be downright scary.
Yes but for bi-genders it is not sometimes it is all the time. But the two are very complex complete people who could actual function without the other one.
I think we are kind of like of twins (opposite gender) but in the same body.
Jillieann likes things that I (JR) don't really care for and I like things she would rather not do.
And we both feel that life would be some much easier if we had separate bodies, because we have to do allot of compromising between or ourselves. If you read some of Jillieann early posting you will see that she had decide to not let other people control her and now she discovered that I (JR) was real and not a character that she created to please sociality. Oh Wow another mind blower.
How could I (Jillieann) deny that he was real? I think it was because I so badly wanted to be real myself after haven't been push down and locked away in what I call a prison in our mind for so many years. I just didn't want anything to do with him. I hated the though of his existence. JR I am so sorry about that. But I so much want to be the female physically that I am.
I understand Jillieann and I hope you forgive me for lock you away in our mind for all those years. It was a survival tactics but not a very good one. And forgive me for trying to push you back down in the prison again.
Again we are not the same person with different traits or being able to process things on two levels. We are two people in one body that can usually tell what the other is thinking and feeling. So that it affects both of us.
Hope this helps as far as understanding the world I live in.
Jillieann and JR
Jill..
i understand what you're saying at least i think, for me its a very deep thing and how you state it and speak of it i see it and understand what you are talking about? shame huh!..to have to have all that going on, when these rooms in our heads could serve better purposes...
Ricki
Hmm, interesting thread, I'll think out loud what I feel about this right now. This might change ;D
Excuse me for a long post again... my compliments to those of you who read it all through >:D
I think I can definately call myself a bigendered androgyn, because sometimes the man in me is upfront and sometimes it's the woman in me who is upfront. At the same time I see myself being double gendered, but I also see myself as one person. This contradiction is in many things I feel, think, experience. Yin-yang, the one doesn't exclude the other, it is not one ór the other but one ánd the other for me. Even if there are times that it feels like one is more in control then the other.
I do feel strongly that there is a centre between the two. This center is ME, and it is double-gendered. From this centre, I can see what's going on at the time, if it's the man or woman in me who has the most influence. It gives me the ability to walk in two worlds, and the more I get to know myself and those two genders in me, the more I have control and can use those different genders in me. For example, sometimes I need to be very feminine sensitive, and I choose there and then to let the female in me do 'her' job. On other moments I really need the man in me!
(In this sentence I write:" 'her' job" or I can write: " let 'him' do the talking", but actually I am one. Yes, two or even three in one, but still I am one. Again, for me it is yin yang, one and the other.)
I think this subject is very complicated because we don't really know how it works biologically. I myself am convinced that androginity is something that is primarily a biological thing, but it has great effects on our psyche. Because both body and soul work together pretty close, both will have an effect on the other.
Carl Yung was teaching about the male and female side in all of us, every male has the archetype of the woman in him, and vice versa. The animus and anima. Does that mean that being bigendered has got something to do with the psychological imbalance between the two? No, I don't think that this is the case for people who are truly androgyne/bigendered. I think that, talking about myself here, this is something that is in my body, my brains, that I was born with. Not a psychological 'disfunction'.
But, at the same time, it is something very complicated that I have to learn to live with. For me that is not something I don't like, actually the more I know myself, the more I see the benefits from it.
In most shaman cultures it where the androgynes who where educated to be a shaman. That is not for nothing, that is because we do have the ability to walk and understand both worlds. But the thing is, that in our culture it is not an accepted thing and people tend to believe that we are nuts. ;)
Well, nuts or not, I have to deal with ME here, and live with my both sides. And yes, sometimes both sides have their conflicts.
For me, personally, if I would devide myself in two almost seperate people, I would loose control because I would loose my centre. This is purely speaking for myself here, I don't know how that is for others. So even if I definately do experience it like sometimes the man is most on the foreground and sometimes the woman is more to the foreground, I always have the double gendered centre that is me. If I loose that centre, I loose myself and my ability to be in controll. This doesn't always mean that I can control it, when my hormones rage then that's me ->-bleeped-<-ed hahaha, but anyway it gives me control and/or understanding to a certain point.
So, what do I actually want to say with this? ::) eh.... eh... ah yeah, for me, I feel I get out of balance whenever one of my sides is trying to push the other side away. I recognise these states in which one wants to get rid of the other, but that never makes me feel good. If it makes me feel bad, I know I do something wrong there. For me it is important to learn to live with the both genders (actually with the 3 genders) inside of me. Making one the enemy is making myself into the enemy. Because in the end, they are all me.
I can't say how that is for others here. We are all different, but we also have something pretty special and beautifull in common. Our ability to walk in the world of both genders. It's not an easy task to accept that, to accept both (or all three) sides in us, to feel not nuts. Society doesn't exactly help in that, and sometimes I feel that we are forced by others to make a choice. I don't want to make a choice, I feel very complete with the two genders in me! I do believe that if we go in war with ourselves, we have to face the most horrible enemy there is. But the more we know ourselves and learn to use our sides, the more complete we are as one person. And yes, sometimes the one is in the way of the other. For me, that is an internal conflict. And I feel the most warm and complete when there is at least some understanding between the two/three sides in me. Opposites bound to one centre. Me.
Sangre y Leche,
I can relate to allot of what you have said here. You defiantly are a bi-gender person and we have much in common. You call the center, where the two meet, a control point and a third person. For me it's not a third person, I just feel that it is both sides working together. The two of us decide which one is more appropriate for the situation. We are learning to corporate not control each other. When we do corporate we find the most peace and we feel whole.
I am glad that you posted and it was a very good read. And it didn't seem very long to me.
:) :)
Jillieann/JR
Thanks Jillieann/JR :)
I do see myself as being from 3 genders, woman, man, and a combination of both so to say. But I don't see the centre as a third person, I see the centre as the whole of me. One. Me.
I hope this makes it a bit more clear.
Ah yeah, and I completely agree that it is all about co-operation and not about one being in control of the other. Sometimes one is in control, but if it is a forced control instead of a choosen control, then something is wrong on that moment. It happens, and mosltly when it happens I have a problem. ;)
You didn't find it long to read? Wow haha... :-*
That's really interesting Sangre y Leche. I see myself simply as that control point from which my male and female energies flow. I try not to control the energies but allow myself to feel things as I feel them. Like you, if I force how I feel instead of simply recognizing how I feel and acting according to that, I end up in not so good a place.
It seems like the more we share here the more we discover what being an androgyne is all about. I'm not sure we would have thought to think about some of those things on our own. And the nice thing is the more we learn the more we can share with those who are just starting to explore themselves. How cool is that?
Oh and Sangre y Leche, I didn't consider that a long post. Medium maybe, but not long. Sometimes what you have to say can't be said in a few paragraphs. Sometimes it SHOULDN'T be said in a few paragraphs. I like to warn people if I feel a long one coming on too. There's nothing worse than having to get a refil in the middle of a post. ;D
I have to agree with Jilleann/JR and Sangre y Leche about the third or middle being a combination. I always give people the example of two people standing at a podium. When you ask us a question, one of the two that is best suited to answer the question or situation steps foward to answer it. A trade off to best handle the situation. Sometimes though they both step foward to answer it together. This isn't a third person or gender for me, just a collaborated effort of Marq and Mia.
Some things to think about concerning be bigendered, have your personas been given their own unique names. One would be amazed to find out how much name recognition means to someone. I hit a new level of balance when I actually gave them their own names, more specifically Mia who had been the silent partner for most of our life spreading influence without any of the credit. I gave her credit finally and everything connected suddently. It was most extraordinary.
Just our humble ramblings
Marq and Mia
I, JR was talking to this Jillieann about how unhappy she was. And I gave her permission to become the woman that she has said she wants to be.
I, JR have used and controlled this body for over 50 years and believe I would feel fine as a women.
Her, Jillieann first reaction was thankfulness, then she called me a dirty old man. ;D
She said I just wanted too become a woman so I could enjoy her body. She is very happy now. But we have not made any plans and I'm not sure if we will.
I, Jillieann am very happy that JR is willing to become a woman for me.
But for now I'm not so sure how far or what we shall do. Anyway I am at peace with JR.
Thank you again for all of your posting to this topic.
:) :)
Jillieann and JR
Quote from: Marq and Mia on December 22, 2006, 09:29:41 PM
Melissa,
I'm curious to hear why you feel that both of your personas are both female if one demonstrates obvious masculine traits.
Having a male and female persona, there are really 3 categories of preference of sex. One is to prefer to look like and be the male sex because for whatever reason the female persona is ok with that. The second is to look like and be the female sex because once again the male persona is comfortable with that, and third would be to look like and/or be a combination of male and female sex. It would not be unheard of to just have male and female personas, be born a male, and prefer to be the female sex physically and make efforts to change it such as through operations and hormones.
Perhaps that's what it is. I know physically I have to be female and personality-wise, it's how I described.
Melissa
Thanks sangre,
i agree with Casey that was interesting and insightful...
Sometimes i think outloud? Hmm that's not the same thing as talking outloud when you are just trying to think outloud is it>?
darn i end up saying something i should not of said???
it's me i know it???
Ricki
Hi everyone,
I am one person. I don't feel a sense of duality at all. I used to have a personna that I played, but in my mind I was always me. I have never had a sense of a him and a her.
Love always,
Elizabeth
@ Ricky, you get me language confused haha... :)
Quote from: Elizabeth on December 28, 2006, 01:25:50 AM
Hi everyone,
I am one person. I don't feel a sense of duality at all. I used to have a personna that I played, but in my mind I was always me. I have never had a sense of a him and a her.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I think it's very interesting what we experience as the "I" in us...
'Unfortunately' I don't know if I will see the following replies for the next two months, the day after tomorrow I fly from the Netherlands to Malaysia for 7 weeks ;D
Take care everyone and a verry happy 2007 to you all!