Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello-

This is my first time using a support forum. About 6 months ago my boyfriend divulged some unknown truths to me. Before I go into detail about what he told me, I want to give you the background to what brought us to this conversation...

First, my BF and I met on an online dating site. It was the first time I had used such technology, but after being alone for a while after a 4 year relationship I decided I needed to meet someone new, outside of my circle of friends and acquaintances. I think I had a dating profile for all of 3 days when I received my first private message from Dan. I had received messages from other guys on the site, but none of them stood out. His shy humor however caught my eye right away. We exchanged IM's and emails, and eventually we decided to meet. Our first date was an absolute disaster to say the least, a family crises had me ending the date prematurely (which thankfully he didn't take to mean I was disinterested or had planned a distraction for if the date wasn't going well).

Following that first date we had a handful more, our awkward courtship is something we both joke about still. I was wary of Dan's intentions, seeing as my previous relationship was one that ended on the worst terms, and before it did I lived through a dark period of depression and fleeting self worth. Only a few months before we met Dan returned home to the east coast after living for 2 1/2 years in California. This left me thinking (as my self esteem was dangerously low) that Dan was just using me for companionship until he found someone better. As time went on, and he continued to stay, I began to see that Dan was kinder than any man I had ever been with, and his love for me was truly genuine.

Almost immediately after we became "official" (about a month into our dating), Dan began to spend the night. He was living with his brother and working about 40 minutes from my apartment. At that time he was also working until around 9 or 9:30 at night, so each night when he came up to see me he wouldn't get to my apartment until 10 or 10:30 at night, so it was just more convenient for him to spend the night. Soon he was living with me full time. We shared everything about our pasts (or so I thought). I trusted him entirely, and I felt that he would NEVER do anything to harm me, intentionally or not.

Eventually, I came to a point in my life where things were a little messy. I was having lots of issues with my family, fears of failing myself when it came to school and work, and just general stressors that continued to build up. I'll admit, I am not the best at dealing with stress, but until that time I had never felt more overwhelmed in my life. At that time, I told Dan I simply wished that I could run away, that WE could run away. I felt that I had not yet explored all that I wanted to because of everything that was weighing me down. You see, I felt he could relate since his 2 1/2 year stint in California was the product of him leaving everything behind to try to start anew. He told me that was a bad idea, because you can only outrun your problems for so long, and though I was fighting with my family, they were there for me and he had some difficulties supporting himself alone in the current economic climate.

Then I asked the question that I now realize opened the doors to the waves of pain we have both been facing. It was innocent enough, or so I thought. I asked him why he left he felt that it was such a bad idea to do that. He then explained to me that he had started to have thoughts that made him believe he might be TG. He was 20 at the time, and decided to come out to his mother. His mother reacted very harshly, seeking counseling for him, and telling him that 'No son of hers would lead such an immoral life'. This hurt him, and because he couldn't stifle the thoughts, he fled.

After he told me that, he began to explain how he sought counseling in California, but felt that it wasn't the path for him. He admitted he had been silently struggling with depression over the past few months, but kept trying to stifle it because he didn't want to ruin what we had as being together makes him happy. At that time I did something that I regret. I promised that I would stand by Dan in whatever decisions he made, and suggested that he seek counseling to quell his depression. I guess in my head, and in my heart, I minimized the TG feelings he spoke of having previously, because the promise of being with him, having him as my husband, and the father of my children sounded so amazing and right to me, so they obviously had to be the same for him.

Now, about 2 weeks ago I walked into our living room on Sunday morning, walked over to kiss his forehead and tell him good morning, only to have him quickly close the browser on his laptop and eye me suspiciously. I brushed this off, said goodmorning, and asked him what he had been up to. "Nothing", he said. He claimed he was browsing a car enthusiast forum, which he frequently does. Again, I shrugged it off and went to shower. When I came out I offered to take him to the diner across the street from us since I didn't feel like cooking. He said alright, and went to get changed. Like I always do before we go out, I picked up the computer and logged onto my bank account. The night before we had attended a concert in the city, and when we grabbed some drinks afterwords I used my debit card. I was a little peeved to see I had been charged twice. I called Dan back into the room, and was saying "I wonder if my bank caught this and sent me an email, they're usually pretty good with these things." When I went to the gmail website, which we both use, one of Dan's secondary emails was signed in, and though I don't try to read his personal messages, one caught my eye. There was a confirmation email, picture upload confirmation, and a few other emails from herway.com, an internet dating site. My heart caught in my throat because once before I caught Dan looking at a similar site. I confronted him. I cried, I questioned, and I screamed. I hurt. I quickly gathered my keys, my sneakers, and my wallet determined to leave. Dan stopped me. He apologized and begged for a moment to explain.

At that moment he told me he was sorry. He said he wasn't seeking a relationship with anyone else, that he was happy with 'me', but that he wasn't happy with himself. He told me that the reason he looks at other women is not because he wants to be with them, but because he feels that he wants to BE them. I was in disbelief. I had successfully managed to block out any thought of Dan being anything but Dan. He is the man in my life, in my thoughts about my future. He told me that he had been looking at TG sites when I came into the living room to say goodmorning, and all his life he has had to hide that from others, including me. He told me he cancelled the herway account, and showed me on the email, as soon as he made it. He caught a link to it from another TG site and wanted to see what it was.

From there the well broke. We both cried more than either of us can remember in our lives. He continued to insist that he wanted to be with me, whether he pursued transitioning or not. He told me he planned to see a counselor, and that by January or February he would like to start Hormone Therapy. That is when it really hit me. I don't intend to hurt anyone, as I am typically accepting of the lives that anyone chooses to live (I have gay cousins, my mum-mum is a lesbian in a wonderful marriage, and I have friends who have struggled with gender issues in the past), but when Dan started to talk about transitioning, I began to feel physically sick. In my head he was systematically describing to me the plans he had to mutilate and kill the person I love. I asked him if he loved me, he said yes, I asked him if he wanted to be with me, yes again, and finally, I asked him if he wanted to be my husband. He said no. I felt like someone drove an ice pick straight thru my heart. I felt like the most heinous person, because I told him that if he chose to transition I knew I would chose to end the relationship- that I did not want to be with a woman. We continued to fight and cry until we went to bed. Once we were in bed, and the lights were out I couldn't stop crying or shaking. I felt like everything I knew to be right was suddenly wrong. As I lay there shivering, he put his arms around me. He started to kiss me, and I didn't stop him. We made love, and afterwords we both lay there crying and holding each other. Finally he fell asleep, and a few hours later so did I. However, I woke 2 or 3 times during the night unable to breathe only to start sobbing and shaking again. Each time Dan woke too, trying to console me, scared.

The next day he called me and asked me to meet him after work. He started to cry as we sat in my car, and so did I. He told me he spent more time reading about transitioning at work and reevaluating what he wanted with life. He said he did not want to lose me, or us, that being together made him far happier than he could imagine. He told me he KNEW he would not need to transition, and I told him I knew he was lying to me. He promised me he wasn't, and I continued not to believe him.

This past weekend I went away. I stayed with his friend in NYC, and she and I talked. Other than myself, I believe she probably knows Dan better than anyone else. We discussed his gender issues, and some other problems that we both know, and would like to help him to overcome. I was so glad to have her, and I knew she was the only person other than myself, and his mother that he had come out to. When he moved to CA she was his roommate, and thus had lived with him thru part of his confusion. I explained to her how I felt, and that I didn't think Dan was telling me the truth about not wanting to pursue transitioning. She agreed, and explained that it might be best for us to live seperatly so that he may make an autonomous decision. I called him Saturday, and we talked over the phone. He FINALLY admitted that he couldn't promise he wouldn't pursue that path, and that he had spent the weekend cross dressing since I was not home. This led us to further tears and arguments. I told him that I knew I couldn't be a part of that transition as a lover, and that if he continued to keep me in the dark, I may not be able to do that as a friend.

Now, I am at the point where I am so desperately afraid to stay, for fear that transitioning will be his ultimate end, but also scared to go because as a heterosexual couple I know that we would make a wonderful life together. Again, I don't understand why this is such an impossible hurdle for me, and I told him that if he simply felt compelled to cross dress I wouldn't feel the need to leave. I just simply cannot see myself with a woman, I am not attracted to other woman sexually, and I believe that sex is something that is very important in a relationship, not for the superficial reasons, but for the closeness that it brings.

I feel awful for the barrier that I can't overcome, as I love Dan with all of my heart. I just don't know that my love could overcome such change.

I'm sorry for the length of this post, I just don't know quite where to go from here...

If you trully love him, why it should matter?  =/
He probably was expecting you to be a helpfull friend at this extremely difficult time to him.
It's just the body, afterall... Your boyfriend will be the same, just more happy than before.
*sighs*
Wish i could say something better, but english isn't the best language to express myself...

Your reaction really is not surprising.  SOs often react the same way.  This person is killing the one they love.  But they are still the same person.  You may not wish to see yourself in this kind of relationship, but is it because of the relationship or because of your personal self view?

You may want to look within and see why this bother you so.  It is hard enough to risk losing the one you love, because we are who we are.

I really hope for the best for you.  And if that means being with Dan, then so much the better.

I feel for both of you, it is very difficult for both the SO and trans partner.

Some questions I have asked myself and about us.

Would he love you for who you are, no matter whether you are fat or skinny, youthful or wrinkly,  or if you became severely disabled (no sex) or had a condition that pills can't cure. Do I feel the same way about him?

It has been supporting each other through thick and thin, overcoming difficulties together, both of us knowing how the other thinks, being relaxed, open and vulnerable while trusting each other that has made us close.

Another question. Could I love him if he gradually started to look like a woman. I don't know, I've never been attracted to women, but yes, I would try because it'd be the her inside that I love and have a relationship with.

I hope you both overcome this by growing together, stronger and closer and do find that staying together is what will make you happiest.

In some ways I think it should not matter but it does. It matters to you.

My suggestion, see how it goes. transition does not happen over night. Examine what you are truly afraid of. It won't be easy, and to be honest most couples break up when faced with this.  But there is a chance you can make it. Theo has some great questions. I think they are worth thinking about.

There is no shame in deciding you can not be with them if they transition. But know that for them it won't really be a choice. The need gets stronger as time goes on. In the end we have to be ourselves. So try not to make ultimatums because they will end up feeling even more guilty than they do. It is no ones fault.

It is ok to be honest though that you are not sure if you could stay with a trans partner who transitions. But it is worth giving it your best shot an't it?

All the best!

Nicole

this is an old familiar story that I think ends badly more often than not.
good luck with whatever you decide.

Thank you for your responses. I think that the reason this is such an issue for me is that above all I hate being lied to, and right now I just feel like I can't trust him. I feel like communication is the most important thing a relationship can have, even if your biggest issue is figuring out who is going to walk the dog in the morning. Right now, there is no trust.

I also asked him if roles were reversed, and I was the one questioning my gender identity if he would stay with me. He told me that he probably wouldn't, which I guess should make it easier to leave if I can't hack it. But at the same time, it physically makes me hurt to think of a life without him. The problem is the him I imagine is a him, not a her.

It occurs to me that maybe you should read some of Mrs Erocse's posts. This is a difficult situation and each person will have to deal with it in their own way, but just to show you that love can survive such a situation: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,85870.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,85870.0.html)

Bottom line is you need to try to understand the shame that many tans people feel about their situation. Very few of us have the experience that I did of growing up in a family where it was mostly ok. Most are taught from an early age that their feelings are unacceptable and that they must FIGHT to conceal and repress them all their lives.

They CAN'T tell you the truth because all their lives they have been taught that to admit the truth is shameful and dirty and sinful. They have had it drilled into them that to tell the lie is RIGHTEOUS - and the worst is much of society still peddles that message.

What you call lying is really the logical effect of years of repression by families. If more parents were accepting then more trans people would grow up able to be honest, and fewer partners would have to face the horrible shock that you have done. So if want to blame anyone for the deception blame all those who try to pressure the young trans person into conformity! Only rarely do a few like me escape and/or resist this.

I am not making light of your suffering. I understand the hurt you must feel, but I hope from what you say that you may still find the strength to look beyond that and see that though the outward form may change, the person inside is the same.

There are no easy answers.
Your lover could not tell you until she trusted you. As Jenny stated, trans children are conditioned to hide their gender from a young age. To not do so is to risk social sanctions.

If she transitions you will have to decide if you can continue to be lovers. If you are not at least somewhat bisexual then good friends is the best you can hope for.
If she does not transition now she very well may sometime in the future. I told my wife I would never transition and that I could contain the woman within.....Yeah not so much. Luckily my spouse stayed, but that is rare.

I wish you and your mate the best of outcomes possible.
Please keep us posted on the eventual outcome.

So, Friday Dan has his first appointment with a popular gender therapist in our area. I am nervous, so I asked him if he was. He is. We have spent more time talking about how he feels, and I have been trying hard to listen with minimal interruptions. I am not sure whether to believe him or not, but right now he is telling me that he doesn't believe that he wants to pursue transitioning, that he believes therapy and perhaps medication to balance him chemically might be what he needs. I want to believe him, because as he has told me before, he is comfortable in his body, and he likes his male genitalia, he doesn't ever see himself as having any of those operations at the  least. But, we will see.

I also scheduled a couples therapy appointment for us on the 9th of November. The Psychiatrist I found deals with GLBT issues, and seems to be very reputable, hopefully we will like her. I think that seeing her together will be good for us, even if we don't end up staying together, I think it will allow us to make a cleaner break. Don't take that to mean I am set on our relationship ending though- I love Dan very much, more than anyone I have ever known- I just think that he should be able to make his decisions without fearing that he will be hurting me.

This weekend was somewhat difficult though. We went to Boston for the weekend to visit my friend, and his family. Seeing his Aunt and Uncle cooking together, and his cousin and her husband and their children playing and interacting, just seeing them SO HAPPY, killed me. I started to cry when we were alone upstairs, and he asked me why. I explained to him that more than anything, I do want a husband, I do want a family. I want to have children, something that I don't believe I would be willing to do with him if he pursued any type of transition, and something that even if I felt I could do with him emotionally, financially it would be so far away that it probably wouldn't be possible with the added costs of transitioning. I know that there are no easy answers for this, I just wish that I knew even slightly, what direction I am heading in.

Dear Heartsick and Helpless.\,

I really feel for you.

This is a post I sent to Mrs Erocse, I think it is relevant here as well.

Dear Mrs Erocse,

People who are not in love have no comprehension what it means. Many people have relationships even marriage, but they do not love. Love transcends. Love is caring for the soul of the person. My wife knew about Cindy before we married, and we had the frank discussion that she was a very important part of 'me' but that I would be a husband and she a wife. An honestly proposed contract and one we lived to. But in the end the crippling emotional pain lead to more and more changes. TG people are selfish. I think in some way they have to be, or be dead. It's isn't an addiction. It isn't an "Oh please accept me'. It is a terrible driving force of gender.  No one can really relate to it unless you are (which sounds egotistical and dumb), and on reflection is both.

Where does a couple go? I don't know if you have children, or even your ages, or the employment situation. All of these impact on your feelings.  Random Thoughts:  I need a father to my children not another mother. We need an income to keep the life we wish. What about my desires. I'm a woman and I'm not a lesbian. I want male sexual contact. I'm too young to give that away. I want to go out looking nice, I want to wear nice clothes and be appreciated by my friends. I'm not too sure if I want to go out as sisters, unless we have dates. I'm very unsure of that. Where does that lead?
I'm giving up everything to let her live. I'm jealous of her. Where next?

I think these are the more common thoughts. You and Ercose have to set boundaries. They are your boundaries. What is acceptable and what is not. If she has freedom so must you, she needs to understand that.

You and Dan are in the same, if not  a worse position. My wife and I were somewhat similar.  We had a whirlwind romance while I was trying to transition (28 years ago things were different BTW). Totally in love we married we had the verbal contract as above. I have never broken it. It wasn't until we decided to have children that the biological joke I am, came laughing to the door. I was totally sterile. IVF wasn't an option at that time. So we lived and loved. The rest is history and  that is available on the board and I'm too (emotionally) flat to repeat it at the moment.

You face tough decisions. Terrible decisions. There is no cure for being TG. Goddess so many of us have tried.

Some may find this strange counsel. Decide what you want in life and do it. If you want a man and a family and and a husband etc find him. You have not found him in Dan (IMO).

This may sound a little sick but maybe try it. At the absolutely worse TOM tell Dan how crap you feel. The pain the cramps the discomfort, the changing of pads and tampons,  If he had a choice in life would he take that on? You don't have a choice, if he is TG would he want the choice? And I'm not talking about sick fantasies, I am talking about being female.  I have never met a women who 'enjoys' her period, unless it is to tell that she is or isn't pregnant depending upon the situation. I would love to have had periods, it means I could have carried children. I could have been a Mum. I am a woman, I desperately wanted to have children. And I wanted to be the pregnant one.

I am know writing into a problem. There is no 'I'm more TG than you' and I totally agree. So I am going to finish here.

Take Care and I am thinking about you. As ever, in the end it is your decision.


Cindy

Quote from: Flam on October 19, 2010, 10:16:21 PM
If you trully love him, why it should matter?  =/
He probably was expecting you to be a helpfull friend at this extremely difficult time to him.
It's just the body, afterall... Your boyfriend will be the same, just more happy than before.
*sighs*
Wish i could say something better, but english isn't the best language to express myself...

OH please. Don't be so naive. People fall in love with WHO and WHAT their partner is.

If some one decides to transition in a relationship you have got to be seriously lucky to find someone who doesn't care. To think otherwise is quite deluded.

Heartsick and helpless,

I can't say that I know how you feel, I don't.

But the situation you describe sounds similar to the situation that I am currently in with my partner.

I think you are doing a commendable job - as has been said, many times, being transgendered is not a choice, if it were, I doubt anyone would choose it

I think Cindy's post has said everything I would have and more....

You mentioned you don't like being lied to, I don't begin to imagine the workings of your relationship with your partner, but speaking from my own experience, its not so much a lie, but rather withholding the full truth... not that it makes it any better, but at least for me, nothing I said or did was a lie to my partner, there was just an aspect of my life, my being that I didn't divulge.
And I regret that, it has damaged our relationship.

You said this:

I know that there are no easy answers for this, I just wish that I knew even slightly, what direction I am heading in.


You are absolutley right, and your partner is probably feeling the same way.

the only advice I can offer is the advice so many have offered to me - communicate - both your feelings and your partners, you need to both be open if this is going to work

and be true to yourself...

I wish you and your partner all the best

~Sarah

HaS:

Your reaction is actually quite similar to many partners of transgendered people.  In addition to the agony of the secret, you also feel betrayed that the person you had so trusted could not trust you with this secret.  As others have mentioned, many of us learn that these feelings are treated as repulsive to others and that we are somehow perverted for having them.  We learn that we must never tell anyone.

This is not an easy life, and I daresay that Dan is also frightened of what may happen and not sure of the path.

That you are willing to stand with him while he goes through therapy and to go through therapy with him is very good.  We feel so totally isolated because of this and to have someone to share that with helps immeasurably, thank you for that.

I cannot add much more to what has already been said other than to say that there are many here who face what you are facing and you will find many supportive people here.  We're glad you came here and hope that you can find the support you need.

Thank you.

-Sandy

@Heartsick

I'm glad you are going to to a gender specialist together. It should help. There's nothing they haven't heard before, many, many times and they won't be at all embarrassed. BTW I think you are brave to discuss stuff that bothers you and hurts and it's well sensible to do so as calmly as possible which you are doing.

I suppose Dan has talked to you about dysphoria, or you've been reading up on it? For me there's two parts to it, body dysphoria - not being comfortable with your body or part of it, and social dysphoria - sadness from not being viewed and reacted to as the person you see yourself as. I'm not the least dysphoric about my lower half it, it works fine. Dan may feel the same way about keeping the tackle and using it.

Hormone therapy (HRT) you need to find out about.

Whatever you actually fear might happen due to treatment get information about it. It's better to say ok, I know what might happen than fear what definitely won't.

Here's a blog about a couple who survived and have thrived with transition. They have a child and grandchild/ren

http://transmarried.blogspot.com/search/label/Granddaughter (http://transmarried.blogspot.com/search/label/Granddaughter)

Here's another page you may find interesting too

http://transmarried.blogspot.com/search/label/Best%20Things%20About%20Being%20Married%20to%20a%20Transsexual (http://transmarried.blogspot.com/search/label/Best%20Things%20About%20Being%20Married%20to%20a%20Transsexual)

So, If you want a child, assuming you are both capable/fertile, there's no reason you can't, some FTM's with male partners carry a baby and give birth even. Kids are accepting of FTM and MTF parents because they love their parents.

Now, I know you are saying the financial cost of transition is a consideration but the cost depends on how much or little Dan really needs to stop feeling depressed /dysphoric. If you are both good with money and know how to get what you need for the least cost it's surprising what you can do on one wage. I thought I was really good with money but even I learned shed loads with the following website;

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/)

the moneysaving ideas are good no matter where you live and it's free to join.

For me it is all about being able to live happily, as me, with him, I don't need a full transition with knobs on and I won't feel less a man for not having the knob. It's tough if you two don't find a way to make this work to fulfill both your needs but it's no shame on either of you if you can't do so because your needs are incompatible. Just remember needs are things you need to live, wants are things you can live without having.

You are doing bloody marvellous getting this far.

Thank you all again, your support means a lot to me. It seems somewhat difficult to find support groups for the SO's of TG people- many of the other sites I have looked at seem to try to guilt the SO into making a decision that ultimately benefits no one. I hope that I can find the strength to stay, but if I can't I am not going to abandon Dan. @Theo- Thank you for those site suggestions, I did check them out.

I'd like to think that this whole mess would be somewhat easier for me to deal with if we didn't already have other issues on the table, but to be honest I think that they are serving somewhat as a buffer. One of the biggest issues we have constantly fought over is money. I truly believe that money can make or break a relationship. I don't expect to be rich, I do however, expect that we should have a small rainy day fund for the inevitable pitfalls that a young couple is bound to have. However, Dan is absolutely horrid with money. He has been getting better at letting me budget some of his things, but it is seriously more difficult than convincing a 4 year old to brush their teeth.  :P

I have already told him hands down that I will never contribute so much as a dime towards hormones or srs for him. I will help him to pay for therapy with the gender specialist if he has trouble affording that, but I believe that the other things, if he should need them, are things he needs to be responsible for. Dan is the youngest of 3 brothers, whereas, I am the second eldest (though my older sister does only for herself) of 6. He has always had things handed to him, most of the time because his parents were trying to make him happy (they separated when he was 2) since his 2 brothers were significantly older then him. He therefore is not so great at accepting responsibility for finances. In many aspects I give in to the things that Dan wants by not doing all of the things I want to do for myself. He knows this, and therefore he didn't put up any fight when I told him I would not be assisting him financially with that.

@CindyJames I feel somewhat of a kinship to you- You are unbelievably selfless, even when you admit that TG people, out of the necessity to live must be somewhat selfish. I envy your strength, and I hope that I can persevere through this, because as you said, love is something that many people go through life missing, or with false concepts of what it is to love. I am not sure if Dan is the person who I am going to spend the rest of my life with, but I believe that people come into our lives for a reason. Before Dan told me that he believes he may be TG, I could easily picture us spending the rest of our lives together. Now, I am not sure where we will be a week from now, let alone in another year. I can honestly say that in the time that he and I have been together I have become more comfortable with who I am, I have been able to open up in ways that even a year ago I would have feared. Dan is very dear to me, and the love I have for him is genuine. I just want him to be happy, and I have promised him, and myself, that I will try to be as understanding as possible throughout this. If worst comes to worst though, I still hope that he and I will be able to call each other friends. There are very few people in my life that can listen to my voice or take a look at me and know something is off. Dan is one of those people, and I know he cares for me just as much as I do for him. If I have to lose the physical aspect of him I at least hope to retain the mental parts.

QuoteOne of the biggest issues we have constantly fought over is money.

Part of what ended a relationship for me, and, yeah, money and kids are the two biggies.

     I would suggest that you be honest with your heart. You have a lover and a friend now. If you leave Dan you don't have that. You were not happy before Dan, will you be when you leave him. I know there are challenges and changes and nobody likes change ever.....We are comfortable with the status quo.  We want our prince charming and life the way we imagined as a child. The one we are brought up on in Disney Films. Even if a man is found that does not a prince make.
     It seems you are very informed and everyone here has given very intelligent and kind support as is the style of Suzan's place.  So the choice is yours.  If you decide to stay you are a pioneer paving the way of acceptance in this world for transger people. I wish the world was a balanced and kind place. It would make life nicer for us all.
     We wish you the Best!!!

    I am a transgender individual. I have been blessed with a wonderfully supportive spouse of 28 years, Three beautiful children. And a simply wonderful life.  I will not pretend to know what it is to be in your shoes or even know what it must feel like.

    We all like to feel we are individuals and we walk to the beat of our own drum. We think we do things that we choose to do because we simply want to. But the reality is that , we are so  influenced by the people around us, sometimes it prevents us from doing the things we really want to do.

   Some people want money, Some want a family, Some want the big house with the white picket fence. Some want a career. 

   That being said , we all share some commonalities. Every single person I have ever met, desires to have, basically the same thing in life. They want to love and be loved. They wish for companionship with a person they admire.  They want to feel secure that the person they choose to share their life with , will be there in good times as well as difficult times. They want a friend to laugh with and cry with. Someone to grow old with . Someone to share there inner most secret feelings. Someone you can look deep into their eyes and see that they feel the same about you as you feel toward them.

    It is not difficult to experience and have all these things that we wish for ourselves. Within a relationship with a transgendered person.

   It is unfortunate though that outside influences may deprive us from what we truly wish for. Because we are so influenced by "what people may say " or think. We worry about, What will my parents and siblings think? What will they say about us , behind our backs?  What will our neighbors think, will the community accept us? Even things like, will we get less the average service at  places of business.

   Whenever two people desire to cohabitate . Weather gay , trans or hetro you will have  problems. Money, family, work etc...

   The decision you make should be made not from what is said here. Not by the way you may feel how people will perceive you. But what you feel when you look into his eyes. Do you trust him , does he love you?

    I wish the world was a perfect place, it is not.  We can only hope to perfect our little world in which we live

   Hugs, Erocse

I'd be lying if I said that I haven't spent nearly every waking moment trying to figure out how to get through this. It's like I keep waiting for a light bulb to go off, or for some Eureka! moment that just makes everything fit. Right now, I am able to keep going because the only steps we have taken are to pursue therapy, individually, and together. From what I have read, and what I believe of any major changes that a couple faces (gay, trans, or some other version of togetherness), when something changes for one person, it alters the life of both. This seems especially true of relationships with people who are TG.

I find it especially hard to come to terms with the idea of being a woman, because other than admiring the beauty that other woman naturally possess, I have no physical interest in them. I do not wish to have a lesbian relationship, which I have been clear about to Dan, so as not to set false hopes for him there. I realize that while physically he may change, he will remain the same in other ways. That is why I am torn. It also doesn't help that in general, I find the company of other women to be taxing. I get along better with my male friends because they tend to be more laid back. Dan is quiet, which works for us. I am the loud one, the excited one, and he evens me out. I know this probably sounds all wrong, and I apologize, because it isn't meant to. I just am having difficulty (for once) with explaining how I feel when it comes to all of this.

I love Dan, and I would have happily made a life with him as a heterosexual couple. And yes @Erocse- I do want a family, and some version of the white picket fence. But I don't know if that is possible with Dan if he is a woman. I know that probably seems completely horrid, but with all of the other challenges we already have on our plate, this one just feels a little more impossible. I understand completely what you are saying, and what @Mrs. Erocse is saying as well. I can only hope to be the best friend and lover that Dan deserves, but I will not lie to him or myself. If things get difficult, I am not going to just pick up and run. But if I feel that we are hurting each other to the point that it is damaging our friendship, and our love, I will not hesitate to remove myself from the equation in the ways that I must.


I hope that any of that made sense... I just got home from work and I'm a little exhausted. I'm nervous and Dan probably won't be home for another 3 or 4 hours. He has his first appointment with the therapist at 6 and I believe it's about an hour and a half away. I am going to bury myself in cooking and cleaning so that time will hopefully move a little quicker.


Thank you all for your support, you are all wonderful.  ^-^

Can I make one more suggestion?

   Try making bread. (not with a machine) When I am nervous or stressed I make bread, lots and lots of bread. I think it is the kneading process that relaxes me most. Then it's the smell that fills the house so wonderfully. :)

   The children an Mrs Erocse love it when I am stressed.  ;D ;D ;D

   Hugs, Erocse

I will have to give that a try. I've never made bread from scratch before.   ;D

Typically I bake and clean when I am stressed. By the time he gets home tonight there will be some sort of dessert waiting for him, dinner, and the house will be spotless.

Thanks Erosce!

 You sound like a very nice person. I hope that if it doesn't work out between you and Dan. That you find the right  person who loves you.  :angel:

   You know all your posts and responses are very similar to how my wife responded to me when I came out to her. It is still difficult for us, from time to time I will not say it is not. But we happier then we ever have been.

  Much love an good luck, Erocse

Thank you Erocse! You seem to be an amazingly kind and wonderful person!

He just called me, he should be home in an hour or so. My stomach is doing flips! I am excited to talk to him about how the session went.

Wish me luck!

Yes I certainly do, wish you lots of luck. And I will be thinking of you two tonight when I am nodding off to sleep, next to Mrs Erocse and hoping you two are holding each other tight throughout the night.

   Goodnight, :-*  Your friend, Erocse

This is a complex issue I would myself have trouble with, but I'll still try to help.

Be true to yourself. If it helps you, you may want to take a weekend alone to reflect upon the situation. Forget about the whole transition. Imagine Dan wakes up as a fully transformed woman tomorrow. Think about the situation and your relation with him (or her, whichever is preferred).

I do not think you have been betrayed or lied to. TG issues are something very hard to deal with with family and friends. I've never had a relationship and can only imagine how hard it must be to expect your partner not to be able to be with you if you tell them. It is hard and I admire his courage for telling you.

Past that, keep in mind that Dan will stay Dan even after transition. Even if the body changes, the inside remains the same, with the only difference that he will be much more happy and prone to make you happy when he is finally fully himself.

The only question you really need to ask yourself is : Can I overcome my lover's body ?

If you find out that you can't, don't feel too guilty. Staying with Dan while not being honest with yourself is the same as him lying to you when he says he doesn't want to transition.

Keep in mind that love problems and trans-related problems never have a perfect solution, let alone a problem that combines the two.

I'll repeat the only real advice I can truly give you : being honest with yourself is probably the best way to clarify your feelings.

Well. Dan had his first therapy appointment last evening. It went well according to him, and I am glad. The therapist he is seeing is TG. He said that he is comfortable with her, and scheduled a second appointment.

He didn't have a ton to say about the session, just that it was mostly introductory, and they only really discussed the things he and I have already talked about. However, the one thing that he did tell me that I did get upset over even though I tried very hard not to was that the therapist suggested HRT for 5 months or so. This freaked me out. I wasn't expecting him to come back from session number one with that response. I've read that HRT after a period of 5-8 months can cause reduced sperm count and/or infertility. Dan said his therapist, who is actually a licensed social worker, claims that HRT can be a good tool for diagnosis. Is that true?


My biggest concern is that he still claims he isn't sure what he wants. He doesn't know how HRT would make him feel, and I don't know if he has weighed the risks. We can't afford to go to a sperm bank. I do want to have children eventually, and more than anything, I would love to be with Dan and to have his children. This is very difficult for me because 1) If we do stay together through HRT and transitioning, I would still like to have our children, 2) If he takes the HRT for the alloted time period and it doesn't feel right to him there is a very good chance that we will not be able to conceive children of our own.


I feel terrible because he is so confused... My head is pounding and my heart just aches. He is sleeping beside me now, and it hurts to think of him not being there, or of anyone else but him in that place. We discussed living arrangements if he were to start HRT, our lease is up in a little more than a month and a half. We were planning on moving in with my friends who just bought a sizeable house. With him in school I am often alone, and we could save some money while helping out my friends. However, I'm not sure if we should stay living the way we are. We discussed him staying in the second bedroom that would be ours and/or him renting a room somewhere else for the time being.

The entire time we were both in tears because neither of us wants to see the other one hurting. I told him very calmly that if we let go now I will be there as his friend and confidant, but I don't know if I can promise more. I told him I feel like I know what he wants, to transition. He is scared, and he doesn't want to lose me, but he knows I want children and a family. He admitted he does have some inclination towards that, but he also is able to see himself as a man, as my husband, and happy. I don't know what to do.  :'(

Even though it's a difficult situation, I must say this whole story is very cute and touching.

As for HRT, usually, I think therapists will prescribe it when the patient is sure they want to transition. I can't say anything very precise about it, but I remember Andrea James' site, tsroadmap.com, recommends against expecting to use HRT for testing ourselves. But if the therapist herself is okay with it, I suppose it's okay.

You say Dan is not sure about what he wants... I think you should recommend he comes here at Susans.org and seek answers to his questions himself, if he feels like it.

Thanks, A. He is using a different site, I am not sure which. I do keep him updated on some of the things that people reply, because much of the feedback I get, or the things that others post throughout are extremely helpful. However, it is nice to have a place that is separate right now... Does that make sense?

I just feel as though there are certain questions I need to ask here privately. That way he can't be smug over what the responses are. ;)

Of course I understand !

HaS:

That first therapy session is always such a buildup and then kind of a let down.  It is so anticipated, though much of it is about background not directly dealing with the specific issues.  The later sessions will really get into the meat of it.

There is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence that HRT can be an indicator of transsexuality.  In many cases it can bring a comfort and relief from depression for those who are seeking to transition.  I was aware of it myself when I first started.  Check out some of my early blog entries for my experience.  It stopped my clinical depression.

The opposite example primarily comes from those men who are given anti-androgens and estrodial in the cases of prostate cancer.  Most men in those cases experience a higher anxiety level because of the loss of masculinity.  The loss of libido and erection was very distressing.

This has had no real scientific testing because for the most part there are so few transsexuals to sample from.  But it has been documented a number of times.

Cross hormone therapy usually consist of an anti-androgen like spironolactone and estrodial.  Also a complete blood workup and liver functionality testing is usually required prior to prescribing HRT.

Use of anti-androgens for longer than about 8 months result in permanent chemical castration and other non reversible changes like gynocomastia.  Prior to that, if it is stopped then most of the changes can be reversed. 

One of the things that drive us to such extreme measures is the relentless bleak depression that often times accompany this.  We do not do this for any gratification or titillation.  We face rejection, abuse, and discrimination, yet we truly have no choice.

This is a terrifying time.  We feel lost and alone and many times perverted and unclean.  That you have shown him the support that you have is helpful more than you will ever know.  That he trusted you with this most precious secret was probably one of the hardest things he had to do.

Conflicted, sure!  He is facing loss of everything he holds dear for a promise of no clear tomorrow.

Of course he would be welcome here to discuss his fears as well.  Many of us find so much support, just in knowing that we are not alone.  But that would be his call to make.

Your fears too, HaS, are equally valid.  You never dreamed that your life would be like this.  You have such wonderful hopes and dreams.  I truly hope that they can come true for you.

But if I could give you something to think about.  Are you in love with Dan, or Dan the man?  Meaning do you love him or his gender?  Are you in love with his spirit?  If so, does the window dressing mean that very much?  And were he to transition, you two could still be parents.  Would a child of yours be any less yours if they did not have your DNA?  These are questions that you must answer for yourself.

He may be a bit like I was.  I never really knew what my ultimate goal was, but I knew what next steps I had to take.  He may not be willing to make a commitment to transition, but he knows that he needs to take hormones.  From there he will be better able to evaluate he next step.

Please be well, HaS, know that we care for you.  And just for curiosity's sake, do you have a real first name we might use?   Heartsick and Sleepless seems so impersonal.

-Sandy

Thank you Sandy-

That is a bit to think about, and actually is very similar to the things that have been bopping around in my mind. I just don't know what to make of a lot of the feelings I am having right now. Because Dan is conflicted I can't rest easy. His well being means the world to me, and thus I'm finding it most difficult to sort through my feelings because I am also so committed to his. I feel like at some points they seem to overlap, thus I'm not sure if I am benefitting him or myself with my choices, or neither. Ultimately he has to decide where he wants to go with all of this. It's not my choice to make, and I will stand by him as long as I feel neither of us is being hurt.

Adoption is something we had talked about before, only because his parents were married for 10 years, told they were not capable of conceiving, and began the adoption process. Next thing they know his first brother was born, and 11 months later the middle brother came along. Dan was 7 years later than the first two. That said, I do not believe we would love a child any less were it not our own flesh and blood, but the idea of making a child with the person that I love is something that I find to be a beautiful concept.

Funny thing is, Dan and I were discussing the idea of sexuality the other night. While currently we are committed to a heterosexual relationship, were he to transition what would that make us? I have heard the term 'situational lesbians' used by some of the other SO's on susans, and I brought that up to him. I am young, and while I do love Dan for more than his physical presence, the idea of giving up the physical relationship we have now saddens us both. While Dan is strictly attracted to women, whose to say HRT won't influence his sexuality? He knows he can't promise me it won't have some effects, however small. He also knows that I am only attracted to men. Yes, I can appreciate the beauty of the female form, but sexually it does nothing for me. He and I discussed this for a while, and he told me he couldn't be upset with me for that because if roles were reversed he would feel the same way. If he were to transition, he would be a woman. He wouldn't be a man pretending to be a woman, he wouldn't be a man. It's just something that neither of us is entirely sure of right now. Thus adding to the confusion.  ???

Oh, BTW, my name is Jacquelyn, Jackie works too.

Jackie:

There are so many issues involved, that they seem insurmountable.  Much of it though is just taking it one step at a time.  "How do you eat an elephant?  One bite at a time."

Changing gender is the most difficult thing that a modern human being can do in society.  There is literally no element of your existence that isn't touched by gender.  There is no part of social interaction that isn't based on gender.  We are segregated and identified by gender at the instant of our birth before literally nothing else is known.  There is much to discuss, but really there is very little that can or needs to be done while Dan is conflicted.  For him to go into therapy and perhaps start HRT is about all that needs to be done right now.  This is a a long path, but one that only can be traveled one step at a time.

If you have done some reading here and in other places you'll know that gender identity and sexual orientation are two separate issues.  That is one of the things that confused me for so many decades.  I thought to myself that I couldn't be a woman because I liked women.  And in the era that I went through in the 70's, that was one of the criteria of definition.  If you were not attracted to the same gender, then, by definition you could not be cross gender.  I am such an old bat...

Anyway, sexual orientation becomes moot issue as a result of transition.  It seems to become more fluid for the likes of us.  From certain points of view the transitioner is simultaneously straight and gay.  No wonder it is confusing.  I consider myself a card carrying lesbian because I am still very attracted to women, but I can now see the beauty and sexual attraction in the male form.  I've long since given up trying to figure out where I fit on the gay/straight spectrum and just learned to let it be.

I'm the wife of a wonderful partner who has known me for many years.  And the only woman to "know" me on both sides of the fence, so to speak.  And she and I consider ourselves lesbian with each other, but she really still likes guys, that is probably the situational lesbianism you were mentioning.  Anyway that is probably getting to be TMI.

It may be a good thing that you and he are on different sites.  Sometimes internal disagreements can boil over into a forum and the party's demand that the group take sides or go into great detail about the elements of each others character.  Not a pretty site and were it to go that far here would be a violation of the TOS.  We really try to play nice here and we have very strict playground rules which for the most part has worked out quite well.  Also remember that everything that is said both here and everywhere else on the 'net is mostly just navel ruminations and worth what you paid for it.  It's great for getting support and for bouncing ideas off, but the best place to work through issues may be with a therapist.  I usually take the consensus of opinions overall on a particular subject rather than focus in on one particular post. 

Also, Jackie, if I may, I wish to compliment you on your writing eloquence.  You words are very well selected and your posts are all very well thought out.  Your structure is very good.  In a very few number of posts you have very effectively described the problems that you have been experiencing and the situation between you and Dan and even Dan is well described.  So often it is hard to decipher what a poster is trying to get at and what question, if any, they are asking.  Thank you for that.

Also, from your newly posted avatar, I see that you have a wonderful smile and a beautiful face.  You are very pretty!

-Sandy

Sandy-

First, thank you for your kind words, it means a lot to me. I am a terror about my writing. It is somewhat difficult for me to write about these topics in the first place because I do not want to offend anyone, but also because I overanalyze everything I write to begin with.

Second, in terms of sexuality and gender, I understand the difference between them, I am just not entirely certain that my sexual preference is quite so fluid. I think that some TG people whose sexual preference changes as they transition are just finally becoming comfortable with accepting themselves in their entirety. While some may remain steadfast in their sexual preference society does dictate quite a bit of what is deemed sexually appropriate, attractive, etc. and just because someone is TG doesn't make them immune to that. While I am sure transitioning can effect Dan's sexuality, or even solidify what he feels now, I fear that my sexuality isn't as fluid.

I will be 21 in January, and at the risk of sounding selfish, giving up a physical relationship isn't something that I want to do. Besides that, having a subpar or bad sexual relationship also has the ability to ruin relationships. One of my good friends is a sex therapist, and I plan on speaking with her once we are a little more sure as to where 'we' are headed (that and she is due to give birth this week so I don't want to show up on her doorstep with a card and a box of unresolved issues :) ).

I feel as though that is an issue that is far enough away in the future that I don't have the means to deal with it now, but because I know I will eventually I am going to continue to fear and dwell on it. If I haven't mentioned it before, I am notorious for my worrysome habits. Dan and my sisters tend to make fun of me for it all of the time.  I recognize the humor in it, I just haven't found the off switch for it. ;)

Jackie:

That is one of the most difficult things about this.  Not only is it a transition for the person transitioning, it is also a transition for everyone around them as well.  It is not easy for any involved.

Also, I do not think you selfish at all for recognizing your needs as a woman and a human being.  You are right in your belief that you should have a fulfilling relationship.  And to be frank, if Dan decides to start HRT, probably his loss of libido and physical response will drop dramatically very soon after starting.

And your gender preference does not need to be fluid.  No one is asking you to join the lesbians (though you get a quite nice toaster oven as a signing bonus if you do  :D).  This can be frustrating to be sure.

Seeking out the advice of your friend would be very helpful indeed.  Though, postpartum of course, and bring a nice gift for her child and our congratulations as well!

And one other thing I would mention.  Both you and Dan are so very young.  You literally have your whole lives to look forward to.  And no matter how you and he end up, either as lovers or sisters/best friends, you have time to make it work out.

Also if you find that switch to turn off the over analysis let me know.  I'd like to turn it off sometimes as well!  :D

-Sandy

Thanks Sandy, and I will let you know if I find the switch. I could use a new toaster oven.  :laugh:

I read through the most recent posts with him. We're working on figuring it out. We do have a couples therapy appointment with a psychiatrist who specializes in GLBT issues for couples on the 9th of November. She seems very friendly and I hope she will be compatible for us.

Thanks again! :)

Quote from: Heartsick and Sleepless on October 31, 2010, 11:51:42 AM
Thanks Sandy, and I will let you know if I find the switch. I could use a new toaster oven.  :laugh:

I read through the most recent posts with him. We're working on figuring it out. We do have a couples therapy appointment with a psychiatrist who specializes in GLBT issues for couples on the 9th of November. She seems very friendly and I hope she will be compatible for us.

Thanks again! :)

YES!
This is probably the best move you can make if you wish to maintain a relationship through transition.

I am of the opinion that my relationship is strong and loving as it ever was because we go to my therapist as a couple. (also I got the added benifit of Sevan comeing out of the closet.) 8)
I hope you guys have as much fun and make as much progress  in therapy with whatever unique form of bagage you have, as we have.

Thank you Cythialee, I hope that things are going well for you and Sevan.  :)

Quote from: Heartsick and Sleepless on October 31, 2010, 01:43:59 PM
Thank you Cythialee, I hope that things are going well for you and Sevan.  :)

YEP
We are spending the weekend in Seattle with friends. Couldn't be better.
But thats nether here nor there. The main concern here is to help you.

So how are you and your mate going to maintain and keep your heads clear until your apointment with the shrink?

We have been talking nonstop since he got home from work yesterday afternoon. It's wonderful, because communication is the key to any relationship. That said, he is being more open about the things that he wants out of the relationship, and what he wants for himself. It is nice to hear the truth, finally, but at the same time, not everything that I want to hear. I understand that in a relationship that both people must compromise, and be attentive to each others wants and needs, but it still hurts to hear some of the things that he has been feeling.

I want him to continue to go to therapy, I think that he needs to spend more time thinking over where he wants to go in his life. And I have been very open with him about that. Dan is definitely interested in the idea of instant gratification, but I don't think that in seeking to understand who he is, and what he needs to be happy that he should make snap judgments without considering consequences. I am not trying to prevent him from starting HRT, but I know that financially we are pretty strapped. I am paying off student loan debt and credit card debt, Dan is currently a full-time night student, and we have the everyday finances that we are struggling to make. Between rent, our animals, gas, and food, just paying the necessities aren't always easy.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't want to see him start and hit a wall financially. When it comes to money, as I said before, he really struggles. To be 100% honest that is the thing that drives me absolutely batty. Dan doesn't always learn from his consequences. I swear he could touch a hot stove, burn his hand, and touch it again the next day to see if it still burns.

Overall, I have tried to explain to him that he is on the right path, he is taking the steps he needs to, but it doesn't all need to be done  by next week. The best part of all of this is that I am typically the impatient one.  :P

I guess what I am trying to say through all of this rambling Cythialee is that we are going to continue to communicate. I think that I am going to have him make a list with me of things he can not live with out, things he desires, and things he wants to work on with our relationship and with his TG thoughts.