I apologize for the bad bathroom-mirror-shot but I felt the visual had to be on this one ...
THIS is what I look like today ... I got "ma'am'd" 2x at Home Depot (the situation was I was pushing a cart full of a bunch of tile stuff and employees randomly just asked, "can I help you find anything ma'am?").
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi425.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp333%2Fpfftwtf%2Fm2.jpg%3Ft%3D1287877031&hash=7ac3f28091f513c5ec2c87055b6b456211aac253)
As some of you might know just from reading my posts I'm not on hormones and I'm not actively transitioning, but I don't exactly look like a ma'am either. It just makes me wonder sometimes - like that someone is SO SURE that they're going to bust out a ma'am. What makes them so sure? At the very most I'd say I looked androgynous. Like don't use any gender qualifier and just say, "can I help you find anything?" Is that so tough? On the other hand, it's still considered a "courtesy" in our society to use terms like ma'am and sir. So at some point you have to let it slide and just move on. But still, I wonder about some people.
Anyway, I just brushed it off and went and bought myself a cupcake. :P I guess that's about all I can do really!
I think you pass and they were just being stupid. I understand though some days I seriously want to shout at people "hello, do you think I clip my hair short, dress as a man, and talk in a deep voice to get you to call me ma'am?!" Sorry that happened man but hey cupcakes always make it all better!
Quote from: Michael Alexander on October 23, 2010, 07:10:28 PM
I think you pass and they were just being stupid. I understand though some days I seriously want to shout at people "hello, do you think I clip my hair short, dress as a man, and talk in a deep voice to get you to call me ma'am?!" Sorry that happened man but hey cupcakes always make it all better!
I know right? From your avatar, I'd never call you ma'am either. Always a little amazing to me when that stuff happens.
It's kind of amusing because I live in an area where hunting is big so there was a guy down the aisle from me that was as tall as I am (so it wasn't a "petite" thing that did me in) but had on hunting camo hat and hunting camo jacket - and of course he got the sir. I think this town is just biased in some capacity. Any guy wearing tight black jeans and no camo with a slightly longish haircut has to be female right? lmao
And yeah, cupcakes make everything better!
is it a small town you live in? i get ma'amed when i wear tight pants in like a rural area (even though tight jeans emphasize that i have skinny thighs...) ....whereas in LA i got "sir" all the time in those same tight black jeans (but then LA is the capital of hipster world)
yes small towns are terrible at this sort of thing. people probably will think your female just from the hair. that and chest depending on how obvious it is. this is why I'm glad my cool co-workers (the good ones) don't use male or female pronouns to customers. it's just "hers ya go, have a nice day." women were being called sir, men were being called mam. there's a lot of gender neutral people around here lol. try being called "young lady." by creepy old guys. i get that every once in a while. stupid b cups >:(
I know what you mean. I've been thinking about it and I believe my body helps me pass quite a bit. I am almost always considered a guy when they see all of me but from behind the counter I do get the occasional and extremely dreaded 'ma'am'.
The last time was a few days ago at a cafeteria in a fast paced lunch line. The server / chief guy looked right at me and asked what I wanted throwing a ma'am in there at the end. I just froze and stared at him. I couldn't comprehend at first that he was talking to me. For a moment he stared back at me with bewildered from my deer in the headlights expression. Then he asked again without the ma'am and I was able to communicate my order with words. It was moving to fast to do much else besides that.
However I have a commitment to myself to always correct those who get it wrong. I feel I deserve to be seen for who I am. Besides getting it out is much better than brewing about it for the rest of the day. So I sat there and waited until the lunch rush was over. Then I went up there and introduced myself and asked that he not call me ma'am in the future. People are usually a bit shocked when I do this. As it breaks the 4th wall between service people and customer in a way. However it's not a bad thing. I'm very nice about it and so far it has always led to good understanding from people.
No kidding. I've been getting the she's lately too! And then ensues the cupcake type foods.. well more chocolate for me. But whatevs. It seems to be the new fad for Tim Hortons to refer to me as female.. maybe it's an inside joke O_O/
Quote from: emil on October 23, 2010, 08:04:30 PM
is it a small town you live in? i get ma'amed when i wear tight pants in like a rural area (even though tight jeans emphasize that i have skinny thighs...) ....whereas in LA i got "sir" all the time in those same tight black jeans (but then LA is the capital of hipster world)
Quote from: Noah the brave-ish on October 23, 2010, 08:19:35 PM
yes small towns are terrible at this sort of thing. people probably will think your female just from the hair. that and chest depending on how obvious it is.
Also Squirrel and Tad - every picture I've seen of your guys on this board is totally male to me. To call either of you female in any way seems really weird to me!
It's not that small of a town. I mean, I'm FROM L.A. though so anything is small comparatively lol. But still, there's plenty of younger kids/adults running around here with the tight jeans and moppy haircuts. I think maybe the older crowd sees something totally different.
For me, unless I'm just out wearing a t-shirt and really don't give a crap what people think the chest is not an obvious thing. Especially now that it's getting cooler and I can dip into my cache of awesome jackets again :)
I still don't get how any of you guys are getting called Ma'am. Specially you Squirrel since you've been on T for so long. Seems like in big cities though where there is a higher population of butch lesbians it's worse sometimes because they don't want to accidentally call a butch lesbian a man so they call guys girls. Grrr I hate living in Florida. I want Tim Hortons hot chocolate now. I really wish I was back in Ohio where I could get some :/
I'm also surprised many of you are called ma'am. All of the people in this thread look pretty masculine to me.
insideontheoutside: Not to insult your hairstyle or anything (I'm also a big fan of long hair), but maybe if you got it cut short, you'd get ma'amed less? Just a thought. :)
Yeah I'm not understanding it at all.. or where its coming from. My voice isn't even all that femine. More teenage boy. Sooo.. blahhhh wtf? Life goes on. Just weird as I did have a passing rate of like 100%.. and all of a sudden that's not so true anymore.. but what can I do.
Idk when i get ma'amed it just makes me so mad and I just look at the person like is there one feminine thing about me? Even if I don't pass does it look like I want to be ma'amed? Its supposed to be a respectful thing, but sometimes I just feel like the persons doing it out of disrespect, like I know you're a female even though thats clearly not wht youre going for. Idk, maybe thats just me.
Being pre T, your hair cut, jean jacket, and how you hold yourself makes you come off on the butch side. Your face does have masculine attributes, but the hair is a womens cut. Jean jackets can be stereotypically lesbian. I deal with the public every day. Women often tilt their heads where as men stand relaxed, straight, facing forward. I think a good hair cut would do you wonders.
I live in a small city. Most people here are extremely conservative and rural. My hair is maybe bottom of neck length, I've been on T for about 3 1/2 months, and my voice is all croaky and resolutely not feminine. I wear male clothes. I glare at waitresses and cashiers alike. If I'm with my mother, they call us "ladies"; never before in my life, not pre-T or pre-transition, have I been so bothered by this. I get so pissed off and injured. My mother says they call me a "lady" alongside her because they see that I'm not feminine and think they are being reassuring. Granted, most of these people know me from pre-T because they are overly friendly, female cashiers that I see way too often. Sometimes friendliness is just... not good. :-\
But in short, I know how it feels. Ugh.
Is the ma'aming you guys get done without malice and just a simple mistake because they see some obvious femaleness or is it maliciousness that makes them do it the way so many people will deliberately smirk as they call even a quite passable MtF sir
@pundit and @sharky I know you guys mean well, but I look like an f-ing dork with short hair ...
(faking it here but it illustrates the dork-factor)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi425.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp333%2Fpfftwtf%2Fdork.jpg%3Ft%3D1287951737&hash=e18ed936eab8c2f9b7ddbd856895f32a7f8993b5)
(also note - my hair is naturally wavy and light brown so imagine even dorkier and girlier ... and even though i do have slight actual facial hair not being able to grow sideburns just kills it for me)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi425.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp333%2Fpfftwtf%2Fdork2.jpg%3Ft%3D1287952128&hash=5597512e91d2139d9c8dc1a2a2ce392eea30c1d8)
To me, the messy longer hair works a lot better and doesn't make me look like a total dork :P
I don't want to look like every other dude and I'm definitely not opposed at all to looking like more "girly" dude. But I'm definitely not a "ma'am" and I'm not anything like a butch lesbian. Bad-angled bathroom mirror shot aside, I wouldn't say how I carry myself is female at all. I don't know about jean jackets and the lesbians ... everyone wears those ;)
Yeah short hair doesn't work for everyone. I never passed when I had a short back and sides cut and pass 75% of the time now with longer hair if I don't talk :-X
you look like a sir... ma'am, what?
Again with the short hair, sometimes it brings out feminine features that are otherwise hidden with long-ish hair, or at least having bangs in your face. I'll agree, there are some styles that are too long and make a person seem very feminine, but the wavy hair helps with that. I know that when I have short hair, I look like a cute, girly elf, which is not the image I'm going for.
And insideontheoutside, you don't look dorky, but I prefer the long hair. :D
Yeah I definitely think some guys look better with longer hair and not the traditional super short "male" haircuts. Depends on your face, features, etc. etc. I definitely look a bit "elfy" as well with some shorter hair styles (could be the 5'3" factor too).
Also having "perfect" well-kept longer hair is more feminine I think. Although I see some bio guys with short hair where it seems like they've spent hours on it just getting every piece in place and probably have more hair product than I do times 10 haha.
It definitely isn't a pleasant thing to have happen. I know I have to at least appear androgynous, but otherwise I look male. I've been getting she and her from guests where I work, despite my name tag and appearance. I guess it's just what people first assume of you. I'm personally guessing it might be my voice, some days it is just a little higher than is male approriate. Fortunately not feminine though.
Quote from: Wolf Man on October 24, 2010, 05:19:35 PM
It definitely isn't a pleasant thing to have happen. I know I have to at least appear androgynous, but otherwise I look male. I've been getting she and her from guests where I work, despite my name tag and appearance. I guess it's just what people first assume of you. I'm personally guessing it might be my voice, some days it is just a little higher than is male approriate. Fortunately not feminine though.
Now that is even odder - if you have a name tag on with an obviously male name, male clothes on, etc. And you don't look female at all either.
I guess it's all very individualized, personal interpretations. Maybe the person saw a female once that kinda looked similar or had similar features ... So hard to pin down why people make the assumptions they do.
This requires further study I'm convinced ...
I have asked people on occasion why they thought I was female. They never have a good reason. Most just say that I have feminine features if they say anything besides I don't know. Which I don't really think my features are all that feminine.
So just like you I though this needed further study. One of the things I noticed is that when I'm feeling bad or grumpy I don't pass as well. Which of course does nothing to improve my mood and it's all a vicious cycle. So I came to the conclusion that it has to do with my posture and how I present myself. I think I might be slumping a bit when I'm sad. I don't know why that makes me seem more feminine? Guys slump too though. They might even slump more than the ladies? So that's not it.
I think what is has to do with my confidence level. When I feel ready to take on the world and I stomp into a store with a spring in my step I always pass as male. That's when I look people in the eye and while still being friendly silently demand respect because I know I deserve it.
I can't say why that works so well for me really. Perhaps it is because that is when I help people really look at me instead of just through me. When people see me they see me for who I am. However when I'm feeling down I want to be invisible so they only see a shadow.
Quote from: Squirrel698 on October 24, 2010, 06:57:50 PM
I think what is has to do with my confidence level. When I feel ready to take on the world and I stomp into a store with a spring in my step I always pass as male. That's when I look people in the eye and while still being friendly silently demand respect because I know I deserve it.
I can't say why that works so well for me really. Perhaps it is because that is when I help people really look at me instead of just through me. When people see me they see me for who I am. However when I'm feeling down I want to be invisible so they only see a shadow.
Yeah the confidence factor is pretty big. I don't usually have any issues with that. At the home store I was lugging around 30 pound boxes of tile and stuff. I was like in full on guy-doing-home-improvement mode just minding my own business and the older employee guy said that. I was like, whaa?
I guess one could argue it's because I'm not a large dude. But there are plenty of guys in the lower 5 foot range, it's not like it's some super rare thing. I don't have a girly figure either.
That really sucks, man. I'm sorry. I just got a haircut the other day and couldn't exactly explain what I wanted my hair to look like because my mother was standing right there and now my hair looks incredibly girly.
I had this happen today. I haven't been called ma'am in awhile unless someone had my full (old) name in their records. I was sitting down at a table reading a paper. You couldn't see much of my body so I don't know what his clue was. I did happen to notice the waiter was undeniably gay. Do gay men actually clock us more than others? Now I'm curious.
Well, it was Home Depot. Most jobs in places like that pay minimum wage or just slightly higher. Those jobs are often pretty unpleasant too - you're treated like dirt, and the work is really boring and repetitive, and your superiors make a big deal over things like, "Did you smile at EVERY customer? Did you approach EVERY customer and ask if they needed help?" If you go out of your way to do a good job, no one notices. I think a lot of people in jobs like that end up walking around like zombies and just doing what's basically expected without putting much thought or effort into it. You probably got called "ma'am" because the person wasn't paying much attention.
You definitely look like a dude in those photos.
gay men clock every male especially any that looks younger - and generally slimmer - but being fat and hairy and covered in tattoos will still make them look.
Quote from: Alexmakenoise on October 24, 2010, 11:12:13 PM
Well, it was Home Depot. Most jobs in places like that pay minimum wage or just slightly higher. Those jobs are often pretty unpleasant too - you're treated like dirt, and the work is really boring and repetitive, and your superiors make a big deal over things like, "Did you smile at EVERY customer? Did you approach EVERY customer and ask if they needed help?" If you go out of your way to do a good job, no one notices. I think a lot of people in jobs like that end up walking around like zombies and just doing what's basically expected without putting much thought or effort into it. You probably got called "ma'am" because the person wasn't paying much attention.
You definitely look like a dude in those photos.
Actually that is a good theory - the mindless-worker-drone theory.
Well, in your first photo all I saw was a woman, an androgynous one but a woman nonetheless. I don't know why.
Maybe it's because you remind me of this singer, Gianna Nannini: (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com%2FFriends%2BAbruzzo%2BPress%2BConference%2Bg1jkn-06v79l.jpg&hash=7f8027eb1bf5bfb81426f15cef74b4ca3f3d8e3c)
Quote from: Bluetraveler on October 25, 2010, 11:55:43 AM
Well, in your first photo all I saw was a woman, an androgynous one but a woman nonetheless. I don't know why.
Maybe it's because you remind me of this singer, Gianna Nannini
I think this is another piece to the puzzle of why people make determinations - they base it on someone else they've seen.
So far we've got:
1. General appearance (if someone sees something that is typically female - like boobs or hips or long hair)
2. Mindless automation (the worker bee who's not paying attention)
3. Recognition from another source through personal experience - ex: they saw someone else who was either male or female and because you have similarities to that person they determined you were the sex of the previous person.
Gay men and to a certain degree Butch Lesbians totally clock us more and are more likely to figure us out. They are typically the only group I have trouble passing with. They see through everything.. its like they have a vagina sensor.
Also take into account some people have just better sensitivities for those things...I did identify as FtM for years and know all "passing tips", and to say I LIKE studying faces to draw would be an understatement (I wanted to be an animator or illustrator). So I guess I just have a very fine radar.
Sez people who study such things there are somewhere around 18 visual clues that humans instinctively and immediately use to assess and assign gender. These determinations are constantly being made of everyone you see whether you're aware of it or not (which is what makes them instinctive). These clues exist in 3 dimensional space in real time and cover far more than the face (the face is one of the lesser ones in fact, which is how you can gender persons walking away from you half a block away). They include things like carriage, gait, the totality of how you take up space, your expressiveness and how you use space to accent those messages. On a closer level minor deals, like how you pick up a beer. And its not just how you speak - the vocals themselves - but the language, vocabulary, and syntax also give away a ton of information that we are processing without even being aware of it. (That's how some thingies on the web can claim to ascertain the gender of a writer just by analyzing writing sample work.)
You're not thinking about it because most things fall into the norm, it's what's expected and normal and no flags go up. That is until something does not fit, humans notice very small changes rather quickly sometimes. How your face looks in a picture is one thing, but most people are operating on a more subtle and automatic level most of the time, even, especially, when they are tired or bored.
i actually found out that i get all the clues i need from the face usually in real life, and only if the face leaves me clueless and i happen to care, i will look further. this is why you can pack a big stick and walk like a cowboy but won't be read as a guy if your face says differently.
Yeah, I understand your frustration mate. I will be serving customers in work and get "cheers mate" from one customer, followed by "pay the nice lady" from the next! I really don't get it: I even have thick dark stubble up the side of my face! It seems to be the case that I pass well with other men, whereas mums with small children often read me as female. I think sometimes I don't pass because I look about 14 or 15, and maybe people's subconscious thought processes run like this:
"Hmm, I'm not sure if that's a boy or a girl. They have short hair like a boy, but they don't have any beard hair and their voice is quite high. So if they are a boy, they must be about 14 - but surely a boy that age would be in school, not in a job? Sooo, they're a girl. Hello, love...."
But I know a few bio guys who suffer the same problem - my mate has a proper full on beard, and just because he has quite wide hips for a guy and wears flowing, elegant clothes, people think he's a girl! Poor guy!
Quote from: tekla on October 25, 2010, 03:12:04 PM
Sez people who study such things there are somewhere around 18 visual clues that humans instinctively and immediately use to assess and assign gender. These determinations are constantly being made of everyone you see whether you're aware of it or not (which is what makes them instinctive). These clues exist in 3 dimensional space in real time and cover far more than the face (the face is one of the lesser ones in fact, which is how you can gender persons walking away from you half a block away). They include things like carriage, gait, the totality of how you take up space, your expressiveness and how you use space to accent those messages. On a closer level minor deals, like how you pick up a beer. And its not just how you speak - the vocals themselves - but the language, vocabulary, and syntax also give away a ton of information that we are processing without even being aware of it. (That's how some thingies on the web can claim to ascertain the gender of a writer just by analyzing writing sample work.)
You're not thinking about it because most things fall into the norm, it's what's expected and normal and no flags go up. That is until something does not fit, humans notice very small changes rather quickly sometimes. How your face looks in a picture is one thing, but most people are operating on a more subtle and automatic level most of the time, even, especially, when they are tired or bored.
I've seen these types of studies/info out there. The thing that throws it off though is just the simple variety of humans. Yes, there are some standardized things, but (and I think this was covered in another thread somewhere) early socialization often plays a large part in mannerisms, etc as well. People's first exposure to gender anything is through their own family, then through limited social exposure, school, larger social exposure, etc. For me personally my parents knew I was "different" and allowed me to develop socially, etc. in a natural manner and didn't force me one way or the other (save for the occasional dress my mother wanted to put me in when I was very small). I also had no siblings. Consequently, when I went out into the world I was read as male as a child 100% of the time. I was treated a certain way because of this and I'm sure developed certain mannerisms, attitude, body language, expressions, etc. because of this. However, as time went on and people tried to put me in the female box things became awkward, just for the simple fact I did not "fit" with how the females acted. This actually made things a lot worse for me because then everyone just thought I was odd or they thought something was odd about the way I acted.
So people's personal experiences early in life make a great impact on social development, etc. Maybe a bio guy who was raised by only a single mom and has two sisters might have developed "effeminate" mannerisms and is able to easily have exchanges with females on their "level" simply because of his experience. By the same token maybe the typical "tomboy" ends up with more male mannerisms. Personally I tend to not put too much faith into those types of studies because there are too many variations. Just my opinion though.
This is the kind of thing that might not ever have a completely logical answer. I might have stopped the guy who ma'am'd me and point blank asked him why he thought I was female and he might have simple said, "I don't know" or "You have long hair". Who knows.
ETA this also brought up an interesting point in my head - video taping. That could be interesting if people posted videos of themselves just walking, talking, interacting. I think we'd see a lot of variation.
I hate that feeling. I was out with my gf, and her friend (who I'm not out to), and I was no where near feminine looking, I was called James the whole time, and I don't think my voice is that high to give me away, but the waitress insisted on calling us ladies -_- Then finally my gf's friend gave her a weird look and said "um and gentleman" nodding to me. idk if it was because I was with 2 girls or what, it puzzled me all night
I don't get this "gay men clock us more than the average person". I work with a gay guy who's a friend and he hasn't made any note of anything. I attended Gay Days at Disneyland with the park literally filled with gay men and lesbians. Not once was I acknowledged as a she. I even had a group of gay men gander at me because they found my shirt to be hilarious. I had one ask me something. I got he/him in both situations.
I agree with tekla and with Squirrel. People don't have a reason, but that is caused by what tekla gave info on. It's just the signs that are male and female. Just like children can generally clock someone instantly, that doesn't leave us. It is just sort of numbed if anything.
Yeah, I feel this frustration lately. I went from passing most of the time in high school, even when wearing makeup and women's clothes, to passing literally 0% of the time in college. I started dressing more masculinely, which didn't help, and last week I gave myself a MAJOR haircut, because I really did have girl length hair before, it just wasn't an issue before now. How much has it helped? None. I went to a party yesterday, and had to correct people on pronouns three times in the course of an evening, and there were more slippages I didn't correct. The only people who ever got it right were people who knew me before then. I am wondering if perhaps, though longer, my haircut before high school was more masculine, although longer; I know the haircut I had before this one was more feminine. I think it's mostly because if I'm taken for male, I'm also taken for being 14 or so, which doesn't work for college, but even considering that it seems ridiculous. And now I'm stuck with a haircut I hate that will take forever to grow out that didn't help any.
Man, that was whiney. Oh well.
Quote from: Mr. Fox on October 26, 2010, 12:17:29 AM
Man, that was whiney. Oh well.
Nah, more frustrated that whiny ;)