I have spent the past eighteen months sliding very quickly down the slippery slope from complete denial of my transsexuality to living full time as a woman. In that time, I have spent considerable time pondering the differences between men and women and--ignoring the stereotypical definitions of men and women--you come to realize there is very little difference between the two theoretically beyond the obvious physical differences (men cannot bear children, etc). Men can be very much like women and women can be like men and do what were once considered "male" things. Men can be sensitive and women can be assertive and so on in an endless list of stereotypes that can be torn down.
Given that men could exist in what what could be considered a female state of dress, speech, and mannerisms without actually transitioning, it begs the question: why transition? Why not assume the female identity you want without actually putting that "F" on your drivers licence. Tell your friends, family, and co-workers but adopt no artifice of the opposite gender that isn't natural, ie a female voice or undergo electrolysis (women DO have facial hair). Since this is rhetorical, let's skip the implications of GRS. I have my own answer but I wonder what the rest of you think.
Cailyn
oh - ho :)
Just kidding Cailyn.
I think that one of the big reasons why we transition is that for some is that we change the outside appearance to indicate to others that we are of the gender displayed, and anyone can do that, and there are lots who do. But I don't think that meets our internal needs. I believe the internal changes (GRS, HRT, breast removal...) is done for our own well being, maybe to reinforce that mental state of womanhood. I wouldn't say that it's done to convince ourselves that we are a woman, as we shouldn't need convincing. But then, authorities require that to have that F or M marker changed you have to go through the ultimate change. For myself, I am a woman so why would I want anything on my person or part of my person to indicate otherwise, and along with that I know that my disfigurement has to be corrected, as would anyone with such a thing.
Hmmm I'm not convinced that I've answered your question Cailyn. I'm very good at expressing my own feelings especially with this type of topic. :)
It will be interesting to see the responses you get to this one :)
Take care,
Steph
This is a touchy subject, because I think I'm the odd ball out, but what the heck?
I transitioned because I was not a woman before, but I wanted to be one. I had dressed enfemme before HRT and early in my transition & it did nothing for me, because I didn't feel like a woman. I felt like a man in drag. I know the general consensus in this community is, "I have been a woman my entire life. I'm just fixing a deformity." I don't feel that way, & I have nothing against people who do feel that way. To each his own, right?
Maybe I see things too much in black & white, but my therapist loves the way I think, so I think I'm okay. Before transition I looked like a guy, talked like a guy, walked like a guy, dressed like a guy, was known to everyone as a guy, and most importantly... felt like a guy. And now knowing the mental differences between a body with testosterone and a body with estrogen, I definitely thought like a guy, too. As far as I'm concerned, I was most definitely a guy. But that doesn't discredit the idea that for my entire life I always wanted to be a girl. Now I am one... almost. And I'm happy as hell :)
The most important goal in my transition was to feel like a girl. If I had already felt like one before transition, yeah, maybe I can see it as fixing a deformity. But you see... to me, feeling like a girl is so important that if I had felt like one before transition, I don't know if I would have felt the need to transition.
Anyway, sorry if I'm confusing. Sometimes I have trouble explaining this idea to people. Speaking of therapy... time to go ;D
Amy
QuoteAnyway, sorry if I'm confusing. Sometimes I have trouble explaining this idea to people.
I understand Amy, perfectly. Even when something actually is, it must be recognized and accepted by those important to you in order for it to take on it's full and complete meaning. Simply knowing something may be an inner truth, but it's not very satisfying without total and complete inclusion with no restrictions, and in the body of a male, there is going to be restrictions, if anyone wants to argue that, go ahead, waste of time to me, though I often do.
Terri
Quote from: Cailyn on August 17, 2005, 06:33:06 AM
Given that men could exist in what what could be considered a female state of dress, speech, and mannerisms without actually transitioning, it begs the question: why transition? Why not assume the female identity you want without actually putting that "F" on your drivers licence.
Honestly, this goes back to the changing the attitude thing I mentioned earlier. You could present however the hell you want to. For example, I act androgynously most of the time. But the actual number of people who treat or view me as androgynous, much less the ones who would ever consider me female, is miniscule. Apart from a tiny number of friends (who
are either gay or transgendered) I'm just some "quirky guy" who uses body language in a way that often makes others uncomfortable.
But humans, for the most part, are social creatures. We derive a lot of our identity from what others think of us. Some people may be fine behaving like a female without going through transition. But realize that it will be very few people who will actually treat you as such.
Of course, one could reason that if someone still treats you "as a guy" when you've stated otherwise, that this person probably isn't a good person to have in your monkeysphere anyway. I suppose it's better to have one or two true friends, than dozens of acquaintances. Whatever floats your boat. There are lots of advantages and disadvantages to having such an attitude. You have to weigh the options and decide what is best for you.
As always, I believe Walt Whitman says it best.
Walt Whitman (from Leaves of Grass):
"Have you reckoned a thousand acres much? Have you reckoned the earth much? Have you practiced so long to learn to read? Have you felt so proud to get at the meaning of poems? Stop this day and night with me and you shall possess the origin of all poems, You shall possess the good of the earth and the sun....there are millions of suns left, You shall no longer take things at second or third hand....nor look through the eyes of the dead...nor feed on the spectres in books, You shall not look through my eyes either, nor take things from me, You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself."
Why go though the god awful gut wrenching, heart and bank breaking thing that is transition?
To be happy.
To be myself.
It would be so much easier if just dress, speech and mannerisms would suffice. But to me they do not. They are as empty as the façade I presented to the world for so long.
I require more.
*shrugs*
You could also look at it like this: Why did I try all of those years acting a masculan as I possibly could, dep voice and all? Just as very naughty put it, were all social creatures, even the most introverted cave beings. We all need social acceptance of one form or another, and to be validated in the strongest possible way. So in the beginning I needed to be accepted and validated as a man, Now its the other way around. In the "T" community there is all diffrent ranges. It all varries on the level of acceptance needed for each individual.
Amber
PS is there a spell checker on this darn thing? :)
Quote from: VeryGnawty on August 17, 2005, 04:36:26 PM
Of course, one could reason that if someone still treats you "as a guy" when you've stated otherwise, that this person probably isn't a good person to have in your monkeysphere anyway.
A person stating they are indeed a woman does not make or even require someone to regard that person as female. I would have a difficult time using her in reference to a person with a beard no matter how vehement this person was about being female.
QuotePS is there a spell checker on this darn thing?
Write your post in MS Word then copy and paste.
"Why not assume the female identity you want without actually putting that "F" on your drivers licence."
redneck traffic cops? :icon_yikes:
seriously, if you are a woman i don't think you want to be a man that acts and looks like a woman, you want to be yourself as close as is currently possible.
beth
right, what good does it do to identify as female when all your identification reads male? all that says is some kind of ...... what?
Terri
Quote from: Leigh on August 17, 2005, 10:14:21 PM
A person stating they are indeed a woman does not make or even require someone to regard that person as female. I would have a difficult time using her in reference to a person with a beard no matter how vehement this person was about being female.
There are women with considerable facial hair due to hormone disorders. What would you call them, especially if they were also butch or genderqueer? This is a hot issue in some feminist circles:
"These days, women's removal of their facial hair is just another concession in the militarized zones of masculine and feminine, where women must still conform or confront considerable judgement and ridicule". Aimee Dowl in
Bitch.
Your answer surprises me Leigh because you are showing a bias against transwomen/women who don't conform to the rules of the patriarchy.
Cailyn
I have to agree with Cailyn here. Not to get confrontational or anything....ok, I lie, I do mean to be confrontational. But seriously. There are plenty of women, even genetic women, possibly even one on these forums who are much more "masculine" than me, but that doesn't make them any less of a woman. Things like facial hair and clothes are simply ways in which people chose to present themselves. Having facial hair does not make one a guy, and wearing a dress does not make one a girl.
Ok--I will be specific then.
A person (MAN) stating they are indeed a woman does not make or even require someone to regard that person (MAN) as female. I would have a difficult time using her in reference to a person (MAN) with a beard no matter how vehement this person (MAN) was about being female.
I rarely see people that don't fit easily into male or female, but maybe I'm only seeing people I want to see? There's a thousands of different kinds of people in NYC, but it's rare that I see one that doesn't fit fairly easily into male or female.
The narrow mindedness of others extends far beyond the reaches of gender identity. I know people that don't like the way I dress. I know people that don't like the music I listen to. I know people that don't like some of the friends I keep. And yes, I have friends that, while they're supportive of my transition, "feel sorry for me", or "wish I could have chosen a different path".
There's no way to please everyone. That's okay though, because the only person you should aim to please is yourself.
Amy
PS... These friends that feel sorry for me don't understand what's possible in a gender transition. They think I'm going to live a life of ridicule and discrimation, because they don't realize how passable you can look post-transition. They can't get their heads around the idea that they may know one or more transsexuals and not even know it.
QuoteBut humans, for the most part, are social creatures. We derive a lot of our identity from what others think of us.
I am not a social creature and could not care less of what people think. I never played the male role and will only play the female role as related to business.
My 5'6" frame at 125 lbs demanded to be physical female. I have always been unhappy with the male body. Considering the body is only your outside cover and the mind can live the way it chooses. My friends are on the one to one type relationships and I do not participate in most of societies games. My social self will do what is necessary to survive and my essential self will rule the show.
So far Ive not seen a single post on this forum I could identify with.
[edit]Fixed the "quote" codes[/edit]
Quote from: lisagurl on August 21, 2005, 05:24:39 PM
I am not a social creature and could not care less of what people think. I never played the male role and will only play the female role as related to business.
Hello Lisa,
I must be a little sleepy to day, but I'm not sure what you mean... You will only "play" the female role as related to business ??? I don't think that being TS, or transitioning has anything to do with "playing roles" either you are a woman or you're not. Also if you only "play" the female role as related to business, what do you do out side of business, socially...
Did I miss your point ?
Chat later
Steph
QuoteI am not a social creature and could not care less of what people think. I never played the male role and will only play the female role as related to business.
I would have to take that as literally meaning you do not identify as either a man or as a woman, since "will only
play the female role as related to business". That would only leave you as defining somewhere in the Gender Queer definition, though you do not seem to like that definition either.
QuoteMy 5'6" frame at 125 lbs demanded to be physical female. I have always been unhappy with the male body.
since you gave no identity issues associated with this, is it correct to assume you simply considered yourself inadiquate as a male?
QuoteMy social self will do what is necessary to survive and my essential self will rule the show.
Unless you explain what that means, I can only assume you will be anything you feel you need to be in order to deal with the
social view of yourself, but there is no indication of what the "essential self" that will rule truely is, since you have no identification that has been expressed?
QuoteSo far Ive not seen a single post on this forum I could identify with.
Perhaps this may be because you have not determined an identity of your own ....?
Terri
I do not believe in the binary stereo roles. I am not a male nor a female stereotype. Sex plays no part in my friendships. Essential self is the self that is when you are born before you learn or identify with anything.
Quoteonly leave you as defining somewhere
LOL you want to label and catalog everything. Sorry words are not adequate. One of a kind do not get their own labels.
Quotesocial view of yourself
No it is not correct to assume I am any type of male. Nor gender queer. Maybe some odd ball female.
For all survival purposes dealing with the public I am female. But friends and myself I strictly the essential self brings me happiness and identity. I do not attend social events for pleasure only to trade an acquire services.
QuoteDid I miss your point ?
Yes I do not function socially, as in any more than one on one. Sex is not part of my identity and I avoid people who think that way.
QuoteChat later
no I do not chat
Quotewant to label and catalog everything
Not in the sense that you suggest, but just to be able to make some kind of approximate identification. You still have made none other then to being " some odd ball female." which says nothing, in fact as far as being one of a kind, you'd be surprised how some those out there fully identified as female, do not fit into any kind of definition of female, male, or combination therof, who are distinctly identifiable as women but fit in no steriotype whatsoever. Most of these though have no problem identifying as women while expecting to be treated as the individuals they are.
Quotedo not believe in the binary stereo roles.
Nor do a lot of Transsexuals and women out there, More then it seems you can or would, imagine. Some are so totally individual as to defy description, but that has little to do with how they identify to the greater public at large. I would defy anyone to attempt to catagorize or attempt to steriotype my own presentation or behaviors as well as that of many others, but that doesn't change the female identification the tiniest bit.
QuoteYes I do not function socially, as in any more than one on one.
I see a communication problem here, as if one does not function in social environments, they would naturally not have to or would deal with any realism or social exchanges which would require any kind of consistant self identity relationship. If nothing public is being exchanged, there are no bounderies, no limits and no true rewards or consiquences. I simply would not know how to relate to such a personality, as that would truely be one of a kind and thus would be incapible themselves of understanding the workings of the world since they had/have no true relatoinship to it or with it outside of thier own narrow interest ie "business"
I would assume "one on one" would only be those individuals who posed no threat, no disagreement and no interferance. Again, I would find such relationships when viewed as being the only relationships possible, to be empty and devoid of true personal growth, my opinion as it would apply to myself only of course.
QuoteSex is not part of my identity
you have stressed that many times now, do you mean sex as in genitals, gender, or the act itself? And if ment in the sense of the act itself, what difference does that make in relation to identification of male or female identity?
Terri
Quote
no I do not chat
Then I will not chat...
QuoteI am not a social creature and could not care less of what people think.
Notice I said *most* humans are social creatures. Based on my own experience.
QuoteMy 5'6" frame at 125 lbs demanded to be physical female.
I'm 5'6'' at 108 lbs and there is no demand for me to be physically female, apart from any demands I impose on my own, from my own desires.
QuoteI have always been unhappy with the male body. Considering the body is only your outside cover and the mind can live the way it chooses. My friends are on the one to one type relationships and I do not participate in most of societies games.
You interact with your friends at the human level. I respect that.
QuoteSo far Ive not seen a single post on this forum I could identify with.
The main reason you probably don't identify with these forums is because you don't identify as anything in the first place, except for maybe identifying as a rebel. To be honest, you might find a more astute audience at this (http://www.trans-academics.org/) forum.
I notice that you are very gung-ho about not using labels, about forcing people to interact with you at the human level. But not everything traditional is gimmicky, and not everything new is trendy.
And before you get to jumping out of your seat, realize that there is no malice in this post. There is no gender or labeling bias. Only a realization that, for some people at least, the idea of having a category to belong to, a group, is an important part of their life.
The more I come to terms with the less I understand about this issue. I do know with or without tranasition I know one thing for sure I am a woman. The other side is to that is that is there an itch I can not scratch without the the transition. I guess Ive known since I was about five who I was and I tried to transmit these feelings to others but they could not accept these feelings. I feel like I have spent my entire life masquerading as a man and not feeling happy about my decision. In short if I ever expect to be happy I must transition. If I had one person in my life who not support me I would have already have done it. The only thing that keeps me from it is my own fear of being left alone in the world. I also understand that some hormones and the exterior organ does not makeyou man or woman. It is what is in my psyche which makes me a woman.
hello Bobbi,
i understand what you are saying. unresolved transsexualism can leave us feeling so alone and the dream of transition only heightens the fears of being alone. fortunately lots of people surprise us and offer support when we finally come out. i am so glad to see you here Bobbi, you will never be alone here cause we all share similar experiences and feelings.
welcome to susan's bobbi. :)
beth
Quote from: lisagurl on August 21, 2005, 05:24:39 PM
I am not a social creature and could not care less of what people think. I never played the male role and will only play the female role as related to business.
My 5'6" frame at 125 lbs demanded to be physical female...I do not participate in most of societies games. My social self will do what is necessary to survive and my essential self will rule the show.
So far Ive not seen a single post on this forum I could identify with.
What was your point then? If you live by your own rules, the idea of transition becomes a moot point, doesn't it? Present how you want, whenever you want?
That would be my ideal since I don't have much use for gender stereotypes. However, if you live and work in conventional society, there are limits to how "individual" you can be and still find work. Being socially accepted is a bit looser but "oddballs" tend to hang with other oddballs and do not find acceptance in wider society. This is unfair--as those of us on the edge of society well know. A few gender warriors aren't going change this established system quickly and most of us aren't warriors anyway, we're just trying to live and be happy.
Thus, transition is partly a personal need to be ourselves, partly a need to find acceptance as ourselves, and a need to belong to our preferred gender which changes the entire equation on how we're treated as people. It's like club membership really and you can diss the gender binary system but it's the one virtually all of society lives under. If you are financially secure or don't care for material things, you can walk away from society and do whatever you want. As it happens, most of us need to work and so we have to work the system and be male or female.
Your comment about your body demanding to be female because of size was strange--gender and size have nothing to do with each other.
Cailyn
Descartes said cogito, ergo sum. (I think therefore I am).
My thinking, we are what we think we are and what other people think we are is the result of trying to label us.
Much of forum seems to be about fighting what the world thinks and labels us as. We are individuals who self identify with some reference point what ever that maybe.
In this lovely place there are many reference points some that we can identify with some not. We do share one thing in common however, we experience the same world outside. Maybe not the same individuals and not the same levels of bigotry or acceptance but the same world.
So how do we differ then? For me it is how we react to it. In this place we are free to express how we feel and to attempt to explain our reactions. We are sharing and interacting on our own terms.
We should be sure in ourselves that the sharing of our experiences is promoting thinking in others and there is a process of self identification that either rejects or identifies with part or all that is presented. While this is not the commonly accepted use of the term to socialise it is in fact the root meaning of the word.
To Bobby,
I say welcome and recommend that you take the opportunity to socialise within the confines of this site and know that you are welcome and your views, while not always agreed with, will be respected.
Try on the woollen shirts of those that socialise here and see how they fit and through that process you will be able to gain a clearer understanding of the person within.
Goodluck to us all on our journey.
I think it was Berkeley who said "Esse est percipi" .. 'to be is to be percieved'
I understand you hate labels... and you say you avoid people who think that way, but aside from sealing yourself in your home, you will encounter other people, who WILL lable you... its unavoidable...
me for example... I grew up straight... dated boys, met my future husband, dated, got engaged, he tells me, "he" is a "she", we marry anyway... but, now... I'm no longer straight. Because I still sexually desire her. What am I? I have No idea, I choose to not lable myself.. But when we go out in public, her enfemme, and me holding her hand, we're percieved as lesbians... even though thats not really true, I still sexually desire men, so I'm not a lesbian... But I don't blame people for 'lableing' me as such.
It happens. You can't avoid it.... there are a million lables for one person.... short, tall, thin, heavy, man, woman, rich, poor, friendly, hateful, etc etc etc...
shielding yourself from that, would be shielding yourself from the entire world.
Hmmmm?
Well, some folx transition to have surgery, and some folx have surgery to transition. Only each person knows why they they do what, and then only if they have spent enuf time being introspective to figure out how they work.
Still, the DSM does draw a slight distiction between those two basic motivations. Obviously, the latter group can chose to stop short of surgical intervention if they so choose. The former group do not have that choice.
And then you get to the IS folx that do not believe that they need to do anything, and you'd better not try to tell them anything either.
Bottom line is, that humans have extremely complex social structures that operate on subjective operatives, rather than on any kind of structure that can be measured objectively. Case in point, is that you cannot even get folx that identify in the same social grouping to absolutely agree on the definitions of what constitutes the boundries that they derive based on their own internal judgments?
The boundries are there because we perceive them as so, and so define them for ourselves. What is a man/woman or male/female depends entirely upon that person's own internal judgment, and has little to do with what society legally defines as whatever, regardless of what science says. It has changed over time and will continue to change as time marches on.
The most important thing then, is to spend as little time as possible concerning oneself with how others perceive oneself, and most of their time living their life as they choose.
So, why transition? Simply because you want to. Period.
What is it to transition? To transition is to take a life that is already upside down and purposely turn it inside out rotate 360 degrees on a three dimensional square of the space time continuum and place it back down in the proper place and in the correct form while trying to keep all other environmental factors and relationships intact. So why transition indeed!
Why does the runner on first run to second when the ball is struck by the batter? Why does a salmon swim upstream? Why do the sparrows always return to Capistrano? And why does the porridge bird lay it's eggs in the air? ;D
Okay, never mind the last question. I'm in a mood this evening. I start out serious and then digress into silliness. I should probably just pop in the Monty Python DVD and be done with it for the evening. Anyway, my first paragraph I think pretty well illustrates what it means to transition. There is a reason it has been called "the change" So it does beg the question why would anyone want to put themselvse through that.
Because we must! Woman is what we are and come hell high water or sudden death we will be women in body as well as spirit. We are consumed by it. It is a passion without boundaries. And when it is done we will at least for a time be lost. What will we do then. That quest, that goal, that search for Eldorado achieved, how does one follow that? So we will seek a new passion to consume us and life will go on, happier for becoming who we really are. We transition to claim that which is rightfully ours, denied us at birth and for most of our lives.
We must, or like the salmon, perish in the attempt.
Cassie
Why transition!
If you have a headache, you might as well say why take aspirin, you take aspirin because they will ease the pain of the headache, you transition because this is the answer to the problem that you have. ;D
Okay some TS's don't go for surgery, and if they find simply living as a woman is good enough for them, then fair play, but are they really living as women, when they cannot function, sexually as a woman, to live the rest of your life either without sex, or having to be extrememly selective who you sleep with, so you don't get murdered ???
Surgery for me was a necessity, I had to go the whole mile, and now I can date with confidence, knowing that the guy won't get into my panties, and find something that he's not expecting, and not wanting to find. :-X
Also how does the body match the person inside without surgery.
Why transition, because it's the cure.
<<< Why transition, because it's the cure. >>>
Nuh-uh. There is no cure. Do not delude people that have not been there, done that.
There is a treatment, but no cure.
There is no Eldorado, no panacea, nothing you can outwardly do to cure yourself. Healing comes from within. That is what therapy is for.
I can agree with you on that Thundra though I am still short of surgery. I have already realized that while I had thought at first surgery would make a change in me I realize more and more that all the internal problems caused by both rejecting it and accepting it, and learning to deal with the results of that are every bit as important to my eventual happiness and completeness as a person.
No, Surgery is necessary as a means of completing the package, but without addressing all the problems that have been created by the necessity of surgery, I will not achieve what I am looking for in life and living.
After all, who I can sleep with isn't exactly my concern or my focus, it is simply a matter of being comfortable with myself, my relationships, and my view of life.
Terri
I think that the knowlege of being able to function fully as a woman -lesbian or str8- is more important than the actual ability to do so.
The other thread about fantasy and delusion could be applied here also.
exactly
Nice hat. ;D
QuoteThere are plenty of women, even genetic women, possibly even one on these forums who are much more "masculine" than me, but that doesn't make them any less of a woman. Things like facial hair and clothes are simply ways in which people chose to present themselves. Having facial hair does not make one a guy, and wearing a dress does not make one a girl.
Some years ago I caught a brief glimpse of a talk show (don't recall which one) that featured a woman who by all appearances was thought of as a man. She was understandably distraught because she is a woman, with female genitalia and a 'womanly' voice, but has the body type, facial features, and pattern baldness that are associated with men. I never did get to watch the program to the end, so I don't know if the talk show host ever provided any help for her. But wherever she is , I hope by now that she's arrived at a place where she can be recognized for the woman she is....
Valerie
Thundra, you are right in a way, but nothing changes the person you are inside, and if anyone is harbouring the delusion that surgery will make you a better person, then I can tell you that's rubbish.
In a human being, there are two basic people, in my experience, the person outside, and the person inside, and where the person outside matches the person inside then great, happiness, and good luck.
Some transsexuals don't have surgery, but even when you do, if you go out looking for relationships, specially if you don't have surgery you're running the risk of finishing up like Gwen Araujo, murdered.
It has happened in the UK too, where cross dressing prostitutes have picked up men, I know of one who has treated to a nice swim, in a dirty canal, she didn't get out.
However if you're truly happy without surgery then fair play to you.
In my case my person inside is, and allways was Christine, but the person outside was male, which, in the end, produced a mismatch that I could no longer live with, I needed to be as female as I could get, I'm there now, given the cash to do it, who knows how much further I could go FFS, boob job shave a bit off the vocals, etc
Quote from: cjbutterfly on September 02, 2005, 03:13:50 PM
Thundra, you are right in a way, but nothing changes the person you are inside, and if anyone is harbouring the delusion that surgery will make you a better person, then I can tell you that's rubbish.
I totally disagree!
I will quote the words of my son when he attended a support group I used to go to long ago. The mod asked if he would mind answering some ?? and he had no problem with that. I need to preface his answer by saying that I was a single parent from 15 months so I raised him alone. He was 20 when this happened. He was asked what was the difference between now and then. His answer was "what, living with that a$$hole before"
Transition and surgery does make a person (me anyway) a better/happier human being.
QuoteNice hat.
Like yours also. Actually that pic was taken after completing my first day back at work after the brain hemmorage incident in November. I was dragging my left foot, running into walls, talking like I had a mouth full of novicane, my daughter had cut all my hair off because I couldn't handle a comb or brush and I was growing out for an electro session and it had been raining all day, so of course I was wearing my cap. I was proud of myself for making it through the day with no restrictions and no special provisions and nobody expected me to last the day, but I did and every day after that, litterally learning to walk and talk again on the job. I was proud of myself that day, thus the smile.
QuoteTransition and surgery does make a person (me anyway) a better/happier human being.
Again, no surgery yet, but I'm already a much happier person then I was a few years ago. I can actually communicate with people close to me these days rather then just give orders and ask why things wern't done the way I specified. My family tells me the difference is profound, and each of my daughters tells me that while we always had a good relationship, they feel so much more at ease with me now and that I am more open to them then before, so I gotta agree.
Terri
The more i read other peoples stories the surer I become and I was already very sure I was a woman. The only thing that makes me a man is on the outside. I feel more comfortable with women but women are confused with who I am and men are confused with my identity as well. I have always thought that I did a god job of disguising who I am but the more look at my life the more I realise I am not. I feel like the surgery would allow my body to live in congruence with my phsyche. Whatever would happen I am not sure but it would at least allow people to see who I really am. I feel ultimately it would give better relationships with men and women.
I am starting to wonder if surgery is sort of like cement. Kind of solidifies the changes of transition.
Regardless, definitely better during transition than before it. FWIW.
Quote from: Kimberly on September 03, 2005, 03:30:14 PM
I am starting to wonder if surgery is sort of like cement.
It will either hold you together or like the movies, sink you to the bottom if you did it for the wrong reasons.
Quote from: Bobbi T on September 03, 2005, 02:01:38 PM
The more i read other peoples stories the surer I become and I was already very sure I was a woman. The only thing that makes me a man is on the outside. I feel more comfortable with women but women are confused with who I am and men are confused with my identity as well. I have always thought that I did a god job of disguising who I am but the more look at my life the more I realise I am not. I feel like the surgery would allow my body to live in congruence with my phsyche. Whatever would happen I am not sure but it would at least allow people to see who I really am. I feel ultimately it would give better relationships with men and women.
Hello Bobbi
Forgive the intrusion, but what the heck. Why don't you start your own topic in Transsexual Talk ? It seems as though you have issues to deal with and some questions of your own.
Don't be scared, go for it, nudge, nudge :D
Chat later,
Steph
Quote from: Leigh on September 03, 2005, 03:38:35 PM
It will either hold you together or like the movies, sink you to the bottom if you did it for the wrong reasons.
Indeed. A good reason to use a cement analogy ;)
Quotenothing changes the person you are inside
If that were true, I'd have been run out of here and many of my favorite RL hangouts on a rail long ago. You can always change yourself or allow yourself to change when you truely recognise the need to do it.
Terri
I want to transition so i have beautiful breasts, large protruding nipples and a moist sensitive vagina with shapely hips and a nice soft voluptous bum........i want to feel the eroticism and sensuality physically of a female
i already feel and think internally feminine and already a lot of the physical feminine sensitivity comes out in me
but i want to transition physically all the way..........i love the physical and the mental.................i want it all
misty xxx
Of course I have issues. The issues for me involve the other people in my life. If it weren't for them I would probably already be transitioned. The physical part of it isn't an issue for me. That part of my body has always felt like it didn't belong and it has always been in the way. I've read alot of the commemnts that people have here and I admire their courage but I am not prepared to dessert eveybody in my life which is what I would have to do. I tried to open a dialogue with the people in my life from time to time and it's gone nowhere. The question for me never was what I was how could I live with it.
Misty,
you said
Quotei want to feel the eroticism and sensuality physically of a female
What if you couldn't achieve that? What if all you could get was the form without the sensuality? Would you still want to transition? Why?
Cassie
Hi Cassie
Wanting to transition for all the reasons I listed would be nice reasons for me
In the case of somebody who has (vaginal) form without sensitivity......then I can imagine there are still large degrees of feelings of feminine sensuousness and completeness from having that form
.....is that the case?
misty xxx
I agree 100% with Misty. I feel 100% the same way.
Gina
"In the case of somebody who has (vaginal) form without sensitivity......then I can imagine there are still large degrees of feelings of feminine sensuousness and completeness from having that form
.....is that the case?"
i believe it is because i have those feelings now coming from the place my vagina was supposed to be, and internally behind the same spot. the only thing i worry about is that my feelings now are completely divorced from the male genitals and SRS uses the glans so i'm not sure how that will feel or affect what i have now. i do occasionally have orgasms now that come from that spot and have nothing to do with male genitals. i realize this could all be coming entirely from my female brain but it really does not matter where it comes from just that it is there.
beth
Quotei do occasionally have orgasms now that come from that spot and have nothing to do with male genitals.
I know what you mean Beth. Apparently as your body transforms there are other spots yet to be discovered. One day not long ago my wife and I were invited over to a friends house. She fed us and we drank wine and yaked into the evening. She lit some candles and we continued talking in the candle light.
My back started itching and was in a hard to reach place. My wife and our girlfriend were yaking away about something so I started using the chair back as a scracthing post, moving my back, back and forth against the chair back which also had a bit of a massaging affect. I thought, ahhh that feels good. So I was doing that when out of nowhere this warm glowing feeling started radiating through my body and kept growing with intensity. I realised what was happening. I was in the throws of a female orgasm. I didn't want to stop but I had too, so I stopped, the orgasm however had already aquired a life of it's own. It continued for what seemed like forever but must have been just a few seconds. So I sat in my chair and tried to compose myself when a wave hit and I let out a slight moan. My wife turned and asked was something wrong. Well this was embarrasing, and I said it was my back hurting again. Our friend said oh you poor thing would it help if I massaged it a little.
No! I said in a rather alramed fashion, it'll be all right I just need to strech a little. I excused myself to the restroom to regain my composure. I'm sure my face was quite flushed but fortunately the candelight concealed it.
That's when I learned the truth about erogenous zones. They do exist. It would seem that I had inadvertantly hit one. As a male I only had one erogenous zone. The existance of others is new to me, as well as the dangers of getting them over stimulated. So I guess the point I'm getting to here is it doesn't really matter what sensation or amount of sensitivity you have down there, as a woman there are other places yet to be discovered.
But I have digressed a bit I think from the actual subject. Why transition? I think I'll chalk that experience up as another in a long list of reasons why. I would have never experienced that if it had not been for the fact that I am in transition.
Cassie
Well you all are so lucky that can decide the options....why to trasition...
I am in India being forced to MTF trasition because I had some homosexual instances in life......I don;t want to be female but still you know some people in India are forcing harmones n my body....
Is there any way to counter attack these harmones???
Hello,
Very interesting thread!
Why transistion? In my view view the girls who have.....Had to do it to be happy and because they could do it.
Ok on the flip-side, my view of why I don't need to transition. To clarify, I have always felt like a girl and and always wished I was a girl physicly.
Well 1st off, I lived too deep in denail to do anything about it when I was young and I never have had the money to do anything about it anyhow. Would I if I could? Maybe I would have when I was young but not now...because I have learned to be happy where I am.
Why am I happy now? It is because I'm honest in my life about my gender and because I feel enough femme in my life to be happy. Being honest to me now...is a HUGE drive. I don't care what others think...as long as I'm being true and honest to myself. But to be happy I NEED to live enfemme and feel pretty every day.
I am free to live enfemme in my appearance and in my sex life. I am so much happier now because of that. I have been reluctant to say this, but beth already has....I too have that
"HotSpot" (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,1021.0.html). Not to be too discriptive abouty it...but...it is a different orgasim than a manly one, not in waves rather it is steady and I am multiple!
I feel a BIG part of my happiness and acceptance comes from my femme enjoyment in bed now. My lover (a gg) has made me feel more like a woman, in our sex life, than I ever have felt before. Our totaly unfrustrated and rewarding sex life has made me realize I can be happy just where I am....without transistion.
Another reason I don't transistion is the cold hard reality that having my man mode accessable is very handy. I hate to even bring this up as I feel my ts sisters get angry to me about this. I can go steath (in my man mode) have have that silly man power our culture gives out so freely. Since I'm out...this only works with strangers...not all my family and friends. I know the differeances between the social genders because I live them both.
So I don't transition because I'm happy as I am and I'm trying to make my life as easy and good as possible with my choices.
Love
DebTV
Why transition?
I tranisitioned into full time living and working as Sarah, because I could no longer continue living the fake sham of a life I had been living.
I couldn't continue pretending to be happy as a male, now all that is left is the actual surgery.
Sarah
For me, short and sweet. I never could stand my body, no matter how well I took care of it, trained it and sculpted it, it was never more then a robot to house my mind and only drove me crazier. It just wasn't mine, not really.
Quotemy feelings now are completely divorced from the male genitals and SRS uses the glans so i'm not sure how that will feel or affect what i have now.
Such things are the last thing I worry about. If I find a partner I can simply enjoy being with, thats enough for me. I could end up with a "dead hole" and still be happy with the surgery, it would be nice to have orgasmic potentual, but just having the body I always felt I should have would be enough if it comes to that and no regretes if it does. It's me I'm concerned about, not my sex life.
Terri
Althought I can see why we have transition, I ran into a couple of bad apples one of which was my GP. He lost his medical license for raping his patience. He kept wanting to check my prostate.
I found another willing to help me for a fee. I didn't bite on that one.
I feel the transition time maybe too long in some cases with too many rules which make room for the bad apples to offer their services. :-(
I am frustrated at being in Ontario where the government totally turned its back on any person unfortunate to have Gender dysphoria or any illness which may cost the OHIP system too much or be unwanted to right wing interest groups.
Sorry I had to Vent
Quote from: Suzys_Cars on September 17, 2005, 07:17:31 PM
Althought I can see why we have transition, I ran into a couple of bad apples one of which was my GP. He lost his medical license for raping his patience. He kept wanting to check my prostate.
I found another willing to help me for a fee. I didn't bite on that one.
I feel the transition time maybe too long in some cases with too many rules which make room for the bad apples to offer their services. :-(
I am frustrated at being in Ontario where the government totally turned its back on any person unfortunate to have Gender dysphoria or any illness which may cost the OHIP system too much or be unwanted to right wing interest groups.
Sorry I had to Vent
Hello Suzys_Cars,
No need to be sorry, there's nothing wrong with venting.
Unfortunately there will always be time for someone to try and take advantage of us no matter how long we are in transition. We just have to be careful, and alert just like everyone else.
I don't think that there is anything written on how long transition has to, or should be. The time line in the HBSOC is a minimum of one year for RLT, and others recommend a minimum of 6 months RLT. How long a person is in transition is really very subjective, it takes as long as they need.
I'm as frustrated as you with being denied access to medical treatment here in Ontario where others have it in the rest of the country and through out the rest of the world. On the bright side the Ontario Government is waiting for a challenge before the Ontario Human Rights Commission to do with re-listing of SRS under OHIP, so keep your fingers crossed. And to be fair to the present government it was the previous Conservative Govt that de-listed SRS.
Just my thoughts,
Steph :)
Why transition?
Your spirit sings the song of who you are. It has the lead role in the stage production of "Your Life!"
If your exterior matches who you are inside, then your spirit sings the songs of your life with full harmony and orchistration. It's a Song of Joy, and a complete production worthy of an Emmy or Tony.
And I believe that this is true whether it is gender identification or career choice or any other major life-choice we are discussing.
If you don't transition in some fashion, then your spirit sings alone on stage. You hear the song, and you know that it could be so much more.
For some of us here at Susan's, transitioning means living full time. I would also offer that for some, myself included, transitioning includes going from complete denial to self acceptance.
I don't know if I will ever transition to living full time. But I DO know that my transition from denial to acceptance has removed some of the discords in my spirit song.
Chaunte
Quote from: Chaunte on September 18, 2005, 12:31:25 AM
Why transition?
Your spirit sings the song of who you are. It has the lead role in the stage production of "Your Life!"
If your exterior matches who you are inside, then your spirit sings the songs of your life with full harmony and orchistration. It's a Song of Joy, and a complete production worthy of an Emmy or Tony.
And I believe that this is true whether it is gender identification or career choice or any other major life-choice we are discussing.
If you don't transition in some fashion, then your spirit sings alone on stage. You hear the song, and you know that it could be so much more.
For some of us here at Susan's, transitioning means living full time. I would also offer that for some, myself included, transitioning includes going from complete denial to self acceptance.
I don't know if I will ever transition to living full time. But I DO know that my transition from denial to acceptance has removed some of the discords in my spirit song.
Chaunte
Well said Chaunte. The female mind cannot be full unless you have a body that say you are a female. I tribe with this every day. Because inside i know my body doesn't say im a female, but my spirit and mind tells me otherwise. If anyone understood that?
Later..
Alia
Transitioning is just that, moving from one point in your life to another.
All of us are in some mode of transition, most don't just wake up one day and say I'm going fulltime. It is a slow and constant transition. There are many degrees of ->-bleeped-<-, not all desire to live fulltime as a woman, not all desire to have surgery to make their bodies consistant with their minds.
Where you end up on your path Chaunte is up to you and you are important no matter what path you take. For me having surgery is in my future. How close or far that is depends on circumstances I am going through right now.
Sarah Louise R.
Society spends too much time worrying about gender. In fact, I spend too much time thinking about gender but I guess it comes with the territory -- all TS's are much more interested in that topic than others. For me, being post-op meant that I wouldn't have as many worries. I would dread having sexual relations with someone if my body was still presenting me as male. Even if they were accepting of me in that situation, I would probably torture myself in wondering why a man would want me like that -- was it an indication that they were subconsciously gay? I wanted a normal "straight" relationship, or so I thought. Since transitioning, I found out that I STILL preferred women as sexual partners. But again, I didn't want a woman dating me because of my (former) male apparatus. Aside from these things, there is a peacefullness when you get to the gender you have always felt you are. And there are little perks. The guards at work never noticed me when I came in in the morning as a male. Now they say, "good morning" and we have brief light chats which lift my mood. As a male, I was invisible. As a female, I was worthy of having conversation with. It's silly, I know, but it brightens my mornings to have the peace that I, under my clothes, am not trying to fool anyone. I am honestly, me.
Quoteunder my clothes, am not trying to fool anyone. I am honestly, me.
I have to take issue with a statement like that. I am not trying to "fool" anyone. I am simply being who I am and trying to keep the male apparatus under wraps. I have heard this statement from men who say "who do you think you are trying to fool" as if that were my objective. It really gets my back up when somebody says this. This isn't about them, it's about me. I present as what I truly am. There is no fooling involved.
Cassie
Cassie, I apologize. I was talking of my own private thoughts and was only trying to refer to my own fears and doubts....that, at last, that fear had gone away. Unfortunately, I forgot how my statement would be felt by those still transitioning. I should know better. I'm sorry. The last thing any of us needs is angst in a room of our peers and friends.
Caylin:
Why transition? I do not know. I agree with some of the things you have said.
I wish that we as TG/TS had no divisions amongst our selves and were united as one.
Gay people often had dicriminated against me because " am not getting real, my dressing up is just a phase am going through". Please lets not divide ourselves with difference of opinions. That is all they are, opinions, helpful but opinions.
I have talked with several shrinks and each one has a different opinion. The Psychiatrist I was refered for my SRS program was totally against it.
I have talked with many ->-bleeped-<-s and every one has a particular take, some agree in this and that and disagree in some other.
No one can agree on religion and politics 100% or 70%, why expect the same on htis subject that science is still trying to figure out, we ere the guinie pigs.
Personnally why HAve I not transitioned yet? Responsibilities and money.
This I have learned: people do not care if I am female or male, gay or ->-bleeped-<-. Those who are biggotted discriminate from the get go just because of my accent, please.
Transitioned or not transitioned we are all one
sheila
Quotewhy transition?
because i hate messes and there would have been a hell of a mess if i had blown my brains out.