I know the subject is kind of difficult to deal with, and at the same time silly, as it's difficult to get into another person's mind.
However, methinks that the first puberty is experienced as more horrific for MTFs than FTMs. From the physical point of view.
By this, I mean:
we FTMs experience
a) nasty ->-bleeped-<- growing on our chests
b) bleeding for no good reasons, which also means you can get impregnated
c) body shape becoming somewhat more female
d) otherwise, the body just does not grow up. It remains the body of a child boy, undeveloped. We're adult, and our bodies are disfigured but otherwise just remain childish. Which is horrific on it's own, but at least not too much gets ruined there.
Which in itself may be reason enough for suicide for many of us. But I think for MTFs, puberty may be much more traumatic, as the body moves farer away from a female or at least neutral shape. I don't wanna sum the points up here, as I'm no MTF, but what do you think of that theory?
I'm not sure this kind of debate is constructive or relevant. But as to the question, I don't agree. For a lot of (if not most) ftms, we too move away from attainment of a regular male shape. A lot of guys are stuck at a height and/or build far beneath the average male. Some will forever have large hips sticking out. I'm not even going to go there with regard to the trauma of developing female sex characteristics and functions.
I think both experiences are probably equally traumatic for the child involved. But since none of us here have gone through both first puberties in the wrong sex, can anyone really know?
I would never sugest to my spouse that my natal puberty was harder than hirs. Nor would I accept such a statement in the other direction.
I think this type of rhetorical question while possibley fun it can only serve to cause issues in our house.
I think that most FTM's will think FTM is harder, and MTF's will think MTF is harder.
I can see the difficulty for both sides. its horrible for both.
Have to agree with Nero here. I didn't respond when you first posted this, simply becasue I wasn't sure what you were asking.
But the issue is, dysphoria. Not the shape of someone else's body.
If body swaps were possible, the issue would disappear.
For myself, a partial male puberty was horribly traumatic because I was still sure I was a girl and that everything would be okay with puberty. When that didn't happen, I really started to flip out. On the other hand, it was good in that it started me fighting back, with doctors, my parents, and even fighting against what puberty was doing to me. I stopped hoping for "later" and started to make my future happen.
I just can't imagine how traumatic a first menstruation would have been in the opposite case!
Yeah, I think everyone loses when we enter the Dysphoria Olympics.
[Though since we're here, I've gotta agree with Northern Jane - I don't think my dysphoric boners could nearly compare to dysphoric menstruation!]
Thanks for your feedback.
I did not want to start a non-constructive thread or a dysphoria olympics, I was just wondering and wanted to see if other people saw it like me.
Thought MTFs would think getting your period is like-- no problem, as most people do. But you seem to get it.
So I'm sorry if this thread is not constructive.
Well, I think most would agree that MTFs have some extra challenges in transition than we do - the need to take additional hormones and medications, hair removal, face surgeries, voice difficulties, etc. Certainly, it does seem the ladies must endure more in transition generally.
But that's not the same as calling one puberty worse than another.
When one is dysphoric about ones own gender identity, or even questioning such identity, puberty is especially traumatic. Regardless of which puberty one goes through it is totally the wrong one. The things our body is going through is not right. And it becomes worse when we find out what others are going through. Talking to our cis friends during puberty we find out quickly what we should doing, and it is not what we are doing.
QuoteI think that most FTM's will think FTM is harder, and MTF's will think MTF is harder.
I can see the difficulty for both sides. its horrible for both.
I quote this for total approval.
I'll give my opinion TRYING to remain neutral, but at this point it's hard for me not to think of FTMs as luckier than I.
I THINK it may be easier for FTMs, because :
-Not having lost hair does not compromise their status
-Hormones do make their voice change (or I'm pretty sure it does)
-I've been told their shoulders and other skeletal features CAN widen, while ours cannot shrink
-It's only a personal opinion, but I personally think small, feminine-bodied guys pass much better than big, masculine-bodied girls. In the worse they'll look younger than they are, which generally doesn' hurt.
-Non-hairy guys are okay, even (in my opinion) more beautiful than hairy guys. However hairy girls just don't do.
But the fact that phalloplasty is not regarded as giving results as good as vaginoplasty should also weigh in the balance.
But then again, this is the opinion of a MTF who's trying hard to free herself of the idea masculinity as a whole is pure evil, so even when making efforts, it's probably highly biaised.
There's no way in hell that I'd go out and say that for an MtF would be more difficult than that of an FtM, or vice versa. It's traumatic as hell for all of us (whether the trauma shows during puberty or later in life is a different story).
I have an MTF friend who's the same age as me and we're pretty much right in the middle of puberty no. 1. I suppose FTMs have more to hide and MTFs more to elude. I think that's the word <.<.
I agree with a lot of what's been said. Everybody is going to think their puberty was worse. Personally, I want to just curl up and die that time of the month, not only because it's so physically painful, but also because it's like a slap in the face. Thankfully though, I haven't had any for a month or two which is odd and I probably should be worried because I'm not taking any hormones yet. But anyhoo. I'm glad at least, that it's only once a month. Unlike a girl who could get a random boner. And my chest lost seven inches so now it's pretty easy to bind...as easy as binding can be. But a girl could easily(?) stuff a bra. So there are difficulties on each side. Of course, if we could just switch bodies, I'm sure everyone would be much happier. They should invent that someday.
Okay, thanks for your feed-back.
About first period being horrible:
Well, I did not take my first period seriously in terms of being trans, as it was horrible in itself. My mother was all excited about me slowly becoming an adult woman (no comment, I just felt ashamed as hell... I'm a guy!), gave me a tampon, tought me how to apply this ->-bleeped-<-, gave me a sanitary napkin as well to be secured during the first period over the first night just in case... as normally, the first period is weak. Well next morning I woke up, tampon was soaked, napkin was soaked (it was a napkin of the kind which take up a lot of blood, don't know how they're called). It had even bled through my pyjama and gotten on my sheets, even into my mattress, and I felt miserable and destroyed and betrayed by my body. I never ever had such a strong period again, it was really like someone had killed a pig in my bed with a knife. Wow, that was a horrible experience, really. But I often thought, it would have been traumatic for girls as well, as there was just way too much of that blood for just eight hours of bleeding.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on October 26, 2010, 06:55:00 PM
And it becomes worse when we find out what others are going through. Talking to our cis friends during puberty we find out quickly what we should doing, and it is not what we are doing.
Yeah, they're kind of happy of what happens to them altogether, it means they're growing up. To me, it just meant my body did not grow up, but weird things happened instead and otherwise, my body remained that of a child. Very weird, wrong things happened. I just could not discuss these topics with them, I thought all other girls were like me, feeling they're males, but forced themselves to conform and become excited about breasts growing and getting their period. And I thought that was why they said these changes exciting. I did not get it then, thought they fooled themselves or tried as hard as they could to fit a scheme they didn't like. Really, cis people exist. I did not know that then, and thought they all forced themselves into expectations and I despised them for that presumed insincerity.
QuoteOf course, if we could just switch bodies, I'm sure everyone would be much happier. They should invent that someday.
We would save so much money, time and tears... All one group hates, the other group dreams of it. Actually, related to that, I think transsexualism (and perharps other ->-bleeped-<-s) should be searched for and diagnosed in young teenagers. We would all been off happier if we had started HRT at 13...
Quote from: Laura91 on October 26, 2010, 09:37:39 PM
I would have preferred starting around 10 but, oh well.
Yep. I would've had to start around 10 to save me. I was just a tad earlier than average.
11 here
13 would have been to late for T poisoning.
Well, what would truly be ideal would be if they found out transsexualism is 100% genetic and they could diagnose it with a simple and mandatory DNA sample at or before birth, and apply treatment immdiately.
But in realistic terms, I don't think we can safely go below 13, as at 13 almost everyone (am I wrong ?) has begun puberty. And sadly, for some of us, assumptions made before puberty are biaised. For example, I think many non-transsexual boys (maybe transgender to some degree, or just a "girly boy" without ->-bleeped-<-) might have accepted if offered sex change at 10.
Actually, a more realistic number would be 14 - at that age, we have medical emancipation (in Québec we do at least) and we can legally decide by ourselves of our health. What's funny though is that here, at that age, one can decide whether or not to undergo ANY medical treatment... Except gender change, including hormones and orchiectomy (unless it is "medically needed"), which can't ever be started before 18. Greaaat law.
Frankly I think one can't say objectively which one is worse because it all depends on how an individual copes with it. For some people it is traumatizing but for others it is an annoyance that compromises their ability to present as the gender they are.
I would have loved to start HRT in like. Fifth grade, because I went through puberty in sixth. Sigh. It's such a battle.
I would have been satisfied to have my feelings acknowledged as being valid and sane. Some sort of pubitry blockers would have been wonderful.
But, at least we can feel some, (or a lot) of satisfaction that, whatever we went through, it has started to make the process a bit easier for today's generation of kids.
That's what keeps me going.
I think it has much more to do with dysphoria than gender.
That said I would much rather be a FTA than MTA :/
I would have had to start at age 9. By age 13 I was already fully "blossomed". >_< Ugh.
It really depends on the luck of your biology which group has it worse.
I have to say that I probably had a reasonably easy ride in that respect being at least partially resistant to androgens.
I also think that it definitely WILL one day be possible to diagnose early with good enough accuracy by using a combination of genetic testing and brain activation scanning.
I expect that within 10 years, assuming the political will to do so, it will be possible to treat at least some of us from the age of perhaps 5 or 6, and as I was one of the rare few who came out fully prior to that age I expect that were I born now I might just be one of the lucky ones.
Quote from: A on October 26, 2010, 07:00:13 PM
-Non-hairy guys are okay, even (in my opinion) more beautiful than hairy guys. However hairy girls just don't do.
But the fact that phalloplasty is not regarded as giving results as good as vaginoplasty should also weigh in the balance.
Well hair can be always got rid of by laser.
But Iv often thought FTM have it harder when it comes to the final surgery, vaginoplasty is more successful than phalloplasty, even my Husband couldnd tell the different, my vagina is now just as natural and just like any other woman.
But Iv often wondered will science in the future be able to do transplants, liver, lungs hearts, etc even limbs can now be got, when I think about it when I had my vaginoplasty 25years ago I had a good set of healthy testicles & penis removed, its a pity I couldnd have donated them to a worthy FTM guy, this girl certainly didn't want them, it may seem a crazy idea, but maybe medical science will make something of that in the future, I know some of the old parts are used but some just gets thrown out.
p
Well, the problem with transplants is that any transplant (not using self-donated or cloned tissue) requires lifelong use of some very unpleasant anti-rejection drugs which compromise the immune system, can impair other body functions, and have other nasty side effects. Doctors are, and will be for the foreseeable future, very reluctant to do transplants of any organ unless its absence/malfunction is a serious physical threat to the patient's life and can't be compensated for by drugs or hormone replacement. Hearts, lungs, kidneys, livers, etc - organs that play a direct role in the body's metabolic processes - are worth transplanting, but thyroids, reproductive organs, and the like - organs whose primary life-sustaining function is to produce hormones or chemicals to support other organ function - are usually not.
(and just from a psychological point of view, I personally would have a very hard time using someone else's genitals...especially if they were producing that person's sperm...kind of creeps me out, actually, even more than what I've got)
I think the best potential new advance for trans people is the developing capability of bioengineering to grow/manufacture organs from a patient's own cells. Even a limited form of this - manufacturing erectile tissue for trans men, or mucosal tissue for trans women, even if they couldn't grow a complete penis or vagina - would dramatically improve current surgical options and reduce the trauma of self-transplantation.
Quote from: kyril on October 27, 2010, 01:57:16 PM
(and just from a psychological point of view, I personally would have a very hard time using someone else's genitals...especially if they were producing that person's sperm...kind of creeps me out, actually, even more than what I've got)
I know, your so right Kyril, it would creep me out as well, I was just thinking about a FTM having a successful phalloplasty just to feel complete as a man, nothing more deep than that, you made some very good points, thank you for that.
I know originally from my own experience it didn't bother me if I didn't have srs, I just wanted to be a woman, but when I did have srs and finally have a successful vaginoplasty, having a vagina I did finally feel complete as a woman, now being married to a guy being a housewife and having a husband is just awesome for me as a woman, just my feelings as a woman.
p
I want to say yes but I can't say because I don't know. However it is a biological fact that T dose a whole lot more than E. Although that's not counting the dysphoria associated with the lack of change FTMs may experience. And I do envy there experience of transition as they get alot more from there hormones and they don't have to deal with Electrolysis, Damaged vocal cords, ect ect
As I have been sterile all my life I would be ok with having anouther persons overies. It would not squik me out to have anouther womans eggs if it made it so I could have a baby.
Quote from: cynthialee on October 28, 2010, 10:04:24 AM
As I have been sterile all my life I would be ok with having anouther persons overies. It would not squik me out to have anouther womans eggs if it made it so I could have a baby.
Yeah, for you ladies, there's the whole pregnancy/giving birth process that I can imagine would make you feel like your baby was a part of you even if the genetic material weren't yours. And the parts being inside, I imagine it wouldn't be too terribly difficult to feel like they're a part of you.
For me, though, since I'd be doing the impregnating (if I were to do any such thing - more likely I'd be having sex with men exclusively), I just can't get past the idea of having sex with someone else's penis and then ejaculating someone else's sperm into my partner...very uncomfortable. Whether or not there's a baby involved, it's...just not right for me. Especially under the "parts swap" idea, where I'd be constantly aware that I was using a
woman's unwanted penis. Just the idea of that makes me squirm.
Well, not necessarily the whole other person's stuff. Maybe, un, erectile tissue and stfuu like that. Would you still feel that way?
No, I think I'd be cool with "inside" components like erectile and vascular tissue. It's the outer stuff, the skin and hair, that I don't think I could handle...that and incubating someone else's sperm-producing testes. If they were sterilized and only produced hormones and fluid, that would be fine.
(it might seem odd that I can be gay and be this squeamish about someone else's male genitals, but the truth is I only like them when they're firmly attached to another man)
there's quite a bit more to it than that though. the thing is genetic females go through puberty earlier and at a much more rapid pace. many genetic females are considered full grown by the time they are between 16-18. genetic males however, start puberty later, and change slower. they usually aren't considered fully developed until between about 18-21.
But if we're going to go there, we mustn't forget the fact that estrogen's effect on body is smaller than testosterone's. Someone with very low and equal amounts of both hormones has high chances of looking more feminine than masculine.
And I'll say again that we're in no position to try to judge who of FTMs or MTFs have it harder, as we have biaised opinions. And, as it's been said, it probably actually isn't harder for one or the other. Harder in some fields, easier in some fields, but overall it's probably the same "level of difficulty".
I can definitely relate on the FTM side, especially boobs, periods and "childish features".
When I actually was a child, I always seemed one-two years older than I was (I loved this).
Then puberty happened, had "lady changes" but, minus that and a lotta body hair (and eyebrows, I love them!), my face and bone structure remained those of when I was 10 (and looked 12). So now I'm 20 but people I don't know routinely mistake me for 14-15. Only Asians seem to guess my real age (and I can guess theirs more accurately than other Caucasians, because of this and also because I study faces and facial aging for drawing), some thought I had some Asian blood but I don't, I'm all Mediterranean. I still am not seeing any of the benefits I'm supposed to see when I get older (my mom is near 50 but can look late 30, and my face is even more paedomorphic than hers), so this situation is very irritating. I hoped that when I would start T I could shake off the "paternalistic gaze" I often get (I would have looked like a even younger male but with the benefit of facial hair which my family is quite generous with and the maleness I hoped that would stop). As for puberty itself, that was hell (the first thought I had: I LONG FOR MENOPAUSE!!) and so distressing for me I tried to hide it (both physically and emotionally) as long as I could. Even now, if I could change my body for vain reasons, I wish my bone structure was more adult.
Quote from: A on October 28, 2010, 06:39:34 PM
But if we're going to go there, we mustn't forget the fact that estrogen's effect on body is smaller than testosterone's. Someone with very low and equal amounts of both hormones has high chances of looking more feminine than masculine.
And I'll say again that we're in no position to try to judge who of FTMs or MTFs have it harder, as we have biaised opinions. And, as it's been said, it probably actually isn't harder for one or the other. Harder in some fields, easier in some fields, but overall it's probably the same "level of difficulty".
well, i don't really agree that estrogens effect on a genetic female's body is smaller, i think it's about the same, but it's just in different ways. you really can't measure those two things against one another because they are just incomparable. it may seem like genetic females aren't changing as much as a genetic male does, but really they are, just differently. it's just the balance of nature. every unborn baby starts off as female, but if a y chromosome is introduced, it changes into a male eventually in most cases. so there would have to be one that stays more soft and femenine, and then one that becomes more masculine. and then, the menstrual cycle. the menstrual cycle and monthly pms/bleeding is an emotional/physical experience that no genetic male or unfortunate female would ever know. i'm sure that many ftm respond just as negatively to their inability to be as male as they desire, because they know they won't be getting any of the masculine characteristics they desire without hormone replacement therapy. even at that, ftm may seem to benefit better from hrt than mtf do, but i've seen many mtf on here who look like really convincing women from hrt. everyone's cases is different. i've seen many cisgendered males who are not all masculine looking, then i've seen many men who are masculine. i've seen many women who are very feminine, and then there's some who have an even more masculine bone structure or peculiar deep voice, but they are still genetically female. it's not all black and white.
I agree less to your long text without clear lines, but that's off-topic.
I agree that we mustn't put everything in the same boat, but I'm pretty sure I read on Andrea James' site something about the body developing more along the female lines without hormones. And please take into account that what I said was to balance things : you seemed to say females changed more in some aspects, so I tried to say males change more in some aspects. I was just trying to say that all taken into account, if it really is easier for one of our groups, we will most probably never know which and how much.
Quote from: A on October 29, 2010, 07:36:10 PM
I agree less to your long text without clear lines, but that's off-topic.
I agree that we mustn't put everything in the same boat, but I'm pretty sure I read on Andrea James' site something about the body developing more along the female lines without hormones. And please take into account that what I said was to balance things : you seemed to say females changed more in some aspects, so I tried to say males change more in some aspects. I was just trying to say that all taken into account, if it really is easier for one of our groups, we will most probably never know which and how much.
mainly, i was just trying to explain that male and female are two different things. i think the whole point should be, anyone who is transsexual is uncomfortable with their genetic sex. trying to compare apples and apples just won't get anyone anywhere. plus, if there is that kind of competition between the groups, it just loses the support. everyone has their own life to live, and should worry about their own problems rather than someone else's.
Gosh, you make me dizzy with all those missing capitals. Don't sweat it though, I'm a maniac.
But thanks, I like discussing with you. I fully agree with you on that.
Quote from: A on October 29, 2010, 10:59:25 PM
Gosh, you make me dizzy with all those missing capitals. Don't sweat it though, I'm a maniac.
But thanks, I like discussing with you. I fully agree with you on that.
oh, you are a maniac with grammar? well, i actually am too. i don't like to use acronyms. i like to spell out all my words, and make sure it's all punctuated perfect. i just don't use capitals on the internet, because it's much quicker.
Let's make a club !
You may want to read this https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,86433.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,86433.0.html)
Quote from: Fencesitter on October 26, 2010, 04:59:13 PM
But I think for MTFs, puberty may be much more traumatic, as the body moves farer away from a female or at least neutral shape. I don't wanna sum the points up here, as I'm no MTF, but what do you think of that theory?
From the passing perspective, MTF individuals might find the results of first puberty a bit harder to overcome. This is because height, bone length, bone structures, etc often cannot be overcome or require surgery to overcome. It is harder to undo gender-specific bone changes than it is to undo or hide gender-specific fat/muscle changes. It is also easier to grow some gender-specific secondary sex characteristics (eg. body hair and facial hair on the FTM side, or a little breast tissue on the MTF side) than it is to remove what has already grown out (eg. broad shoulders or big hands).
The reason this becomes important for MTF individuals for passing is that society tends to notice and observe women and their features with greater scrutiny. A couple of years ago, a transman who dated me discussed this with me and he said, "a young-looking boy of short height is often treated better in society than a man in a dress except on Halloween".
However, from the gender dysphoria perspective, it is definitely hard for both MTF and FTM individuals. I do not think anyone is in a position to compare.
We both have it bad in different ways. I'd say it's equally bad unless your "first puberty" ended up being the right one/only one.
I think this is the problem of generalising...
Some MtFs are very lucky in that they have very suppressed androgens or forms of AIS that then makes a later transition say in their late 20 30's still very successful.... or they get medical intervention in their teen which is even better....
And then there are the blokes built like brick-sh#t-houses that life as male a life as they can till there 40's....who will never get the kinda jessica-rabbit physicality easily, and beautiful facial features, that deep down they might desperately crave...
Ditto if you be an uber small, tiny petite foot/handed, uber hip-to-waist ratio pretty faced FtM, rather than an uber 6ft plus, balding stallion muscle clad broad shouldered alpha male type...
Then a convincing Bruce Willis type you're unlikely to ever be!
(And the cruel irony of all this physicality against you malarkey is also hard to take)
As an aside while I was in Scottsdale recently I did notice that an awful lot of chaps I saw in the good doctors reception over the month or so I was there (and a lot of em to boot) who were seeking out 'top' work were lets say in the main somewhat height challenged.... one chap tiny in fact....
And men being the jocks they are - when out as a boyz pack on the town - do really work on the hierarchical king of the castle mentality, where he who's toughest, hardest, bigger better wins... so lets say if you take up Rugby, best to keep outta the scrum unless you want to be broken....
If a skinny, pretty and aesthete femme boy-toy type you be.... in which case heading up a Japanese boy band might be a better choice of divertissemént?
Quote from: marissak on November 08, 2010, 02:11:54 AM
The reason this becomes important for MTF individuals for passing is that society tends to notice and observe women and their features with greater scrutiny.
Good point. I've noticed a lot less eye contact from people since I started passing. People don't generally stare at men. Men generally avoid looking closely at other men and so do women. Probably in both cases because they don't want looking to be taken the wrong way.
Quote from: Nero on November 08, 2010, 10:44:48 AM
I've noticed a lot less eye contact from people since I started passing.
That is the measurement I use to figure out if I pass or not. ;D People look at me a lot less now in the last few months than they used to previously. And there is a feedback system too which adds up quickly ... if you know that you pass, you become a lot more confident, which seems to make you pass even better. I used to be in the negative spiral downward a couple of years ago when my confidence was down, and I can easily see the difference now.
Who cares? It is too late!