Susan's Place Transgender Resources

- Sorry, long posting again, but I really need to rant -

Hello,

My therapist was a gentle old guy, but very old-fashioned in his view of transgenders/transsexuals. I had no other choice, the only other gender therapist in my region was well-known as being very bad at dealing with FTMs. Well spending time with him was much more a nuisance than a help, though he tried his best.  Well at least I got the letter for hormones after going through this "therapy" for about one year. And that was why I was there, so why complain?

Why I complain is - you have to deal with a system in which the therapist may be less a partner and more an antagonist. You know you want to get the hormones - he has the power to allow or deny them to you. That's annoying in itself, but when you also have to deal with a close-minded view of transsexuality, sometimes studied decades ago, then it can really become nasty.

First of all, let me say that the SoC system does not work well as a filter. I was nervous there and very aware about when he raised his eyebrow in doubt about one of my remarks, and when he nodded happily while he noted stuff. You get a learning effect quite fast, like a horse which learns to react to its master when "counting" with his hooves. Horses can't count, but they react to their masters' reactions and learn when exactly they have to stop counting, as their masters become relaxed right then.

But what really bothered me were the sometimes stupid questions. We agreed upon a 24/7 real life experience for one year without hormones, which is stupid, but he was very insisting on the no-hormone-"gender role change". Let me tell you that's ridiculous as I had no passing before hormones no matter what I tried, but my genetics hinted that it would work quite fast once on Testosterone (which it indeed did - I'm a mediterranean type). But well, the "full-time real life test" without hormones is a holy cow for most therapists in Gernany. Well I got asked silly questions in "gender therapy" before hormones:

"Do you use the male bathrooms all the time now?"
Honest answer would have been: I go to the bathroom I get pointed to as I don't want to freak out people. I also went to the closest bathroom no matter what sex at that time, and had done this occasionally before. Who cares a sh...? I had had a chronical bladder irritation for years, so gender really becomes unimportant there. At worst, you apologize towards the guys and tell them about the bladder problem, that you need to pee NOW and look demonstratively the other way round and hide your eyes demonstratively so they know you don't want to have a look at their penises. And at my workplace, people had transformed the bathrooms into unofficial unisex bathrooms long ago as you don't get your pee breaks paid there so you rush to the next free toilet. That would have been the honest answer.

But I saw him become very aware and waiting for something to write on his notepad, his body became tensed. He wasn't like that often, so I assumed this was an important question which I was not to mess up.
Well I lied at him and told him I always used male bathrooms. He asked more, I described my lies to him. I feel loyal to my company anyway, so I wouldn't tell about their toilet problem, which is illegal in Germany. Plus I really don't see why using male bathrooms before passing as male matters at all for diagnosis. So I see no moral problem here, he was just a gatekeeper. He seemed satisfied and noted down the stuff.

And then I asked him why on earth he asked me that? (I had already learned like a "counting horse" from reading body language that you first answer, then ask why the question had been asked, and without saying that you think that question's ridiculous.)

- "Well it's very important for the diagnosis, because of the RLE. You need to gather experience in your new gender role, and toilets are very very important here"

And I secretely thought WTF???

Later on, I joked with a couple of (non-trans) friends about that and we laughed aloud. In Harry Potter, there's an annoying toilet phantom in their school. Maybe there was one to be found as well in male bathrooms, telling me secrets about my gender identity. Or I could somehow figure out what maleness meens by visiting the male bathrooms and getting the esoteric "male vibrations" there. Or maybe there was something miraculous in male bathrooms' tap water helping me for the diagnosis. We all laughed a lot there. My shrink must probably have read somewhere in the shrinks' literature how important bathrooms are. Well of course they are, imagine New York City without public bathrooms, but well...

Well, at another meeting, he asked me as what I saw myself in my sexual fantasies, and fancy myself, as a male or as a female? He became very tense again, and I became the counting horse again.
But I first told him that this is very private and I considered it none of his business.
He insisted and told me that on my request why? that it was very important for the diagnosis.
Then he stared, very intensely. And I knew I had to save my ass here, as this question seemed to be central.
I fell back into the counting horse mode again and said what seemed appropriate for a transsexual. I had not been prepared to that question, so I could only guess. And ->-bleeped-<-, I did not want to get the hormones denied. No problem with thinking them over or delaying them for myself, but it would have been humiliating for me to get them denied by a "toilets-are-very-important"-shrink. I had no trust in him after the toilet experience. I would have loved to get a good differential diagnosis, but not with that guy.

"I  always feel like a male there etc." (In reality, I just try to trick out the body-mind-descrepancy with various tricks, as when I masturbate, I get "wrong" physical sensations. And the tricks I use turn me neutral or cause a lot of gender-bending fantasies of all sorts and in all directions as work-arounds for my body dysphoria, I don't love them but these fantasies at least kind of work. But all that's none of his business and I don't know if he could ever understand that.)

He seemed satisfied, smiled and noted that. My horse counting act had succeeded.

After that session, however, at home, I searched like crazy to find out what relationship sexual fantasies might have with gender identity, esp. differential diagnosis. Unfortunately, I found nothing. I'd have loved to asked him, but I couldn't cause I did not want to jeopardize the hormone prescription.

It's ridiculous, this all has been years ago, but these long forgotten situations keep on popping up in my mind, like a trauma that I still have not digested. When these memories pop up, I feel kind of ... forced, ridiculized or humiliated. I think I haven't stomached it all yet. I don't know how to put this in words. I'm sure my shrink did not do that on purpose, but honestly, the therapy damaged me more than it helped me. Before, I thought being transgendered was kind of normal, and that, yes, it was normal as well that some of these people transitioned.  About 25% of my friends have been transsexuals or transgenders since I was 20 (androgynes, bigenders etc.), without us belonging to any specific subculture or transgender community, we just met "by chance", it was just human variation. And we were a very varied bunch of people.

Then I had to deal with this gatekeeper, a gentle man, but, well... I had never even thought about it that being transgendered might be considered pathological, that you had to go through exams to get hormones, that people judge you for sometimes silly characteristics and behaviors (like going to the men's bathroom before passing) - and that you had to prove and justify yourself for being transgendered, other than with my friends. Plus my friends never asked me such ridiculous questions. They just knew which bathroom I use means nothing about myself. Nothing. This was all so weird to me, dealing with the system. I really couldn't understand it. It was like being beamed into a culture where I was pathologized for being left-handed and had to pass exams for being allowed to write with my left hand. And then being judged as a real or non-real left-handed guy based on the fact which hand I use when I wipe my ass. By right-handed people who had written or read theories about people like me, often prejudiced or dismeaning theories, and where the ass-wiping had become a central criterium to allow left-handed people use their appropriate hand. (This analogy does not work well as left-handed people really usually their left hand for this.)

Can you relate to this?

I'll let you know after my first therapy session next week.  I don't think I will have those srt of problems, bu thanks for the warning.

Wasn't that counting horse named Hans?
Reminds me of a meeting at gender clinic when the shrink and a feamle therapist were asking these stupid questions. 
I was getting pretty peed off with them so when they asked another one I took a deep breath an dstarted tapping my fingers on my knee...they shut up instantly and changed the subject.

At the next meeting I did the same just to see how well trained they are and sure enough they eat oats and hay.

What is the procedure in Germany for those that self medicate and then decide to go through the "right" channels?
I'm curious to see how they react to that because here in Australia when I made my first psychiatrist appointment it was a three month wait so I started self-medicating. When I got there I told him and he was ok about it and sent me for blood tests for that same day instead of making me jump threw a series of hoops first.
His concern was on my health first and foremost which was good. I'm just wondering if they frown upon that there and try and set you back for it or help you jump ahead with proceedings.

You're right, those SOC are truly a waste. Almost anyone who's TS/TG has been having it on their mind for years before seeking a therapist, and it's not a good filter. My psych does a few of the same things yours does. He asks the weirdest questions like, "In your fantasies, do you feel 'safe' having a guy on top? or do you picture a girl?" I told him the former was true, even though you don't have to feel safe just because this guy is on top of you @_@

Psychs are weird, and those SOC don't keep people from going TS who really aren't meant for it.

Best wishes to you though!

In the UK women are now suing GP practices....

As Doctors abused vulnerable women in power-plays....mental shenanigans...

And when these women complained the medics involved closed ranks...

As one of these chaps is now doing 18 months in prison, as he was a serial offender, and moved to another clinic before being finally caught....

Tells you all you need to know. Doctors are fallible, some bad, some indifferent and some excellent....

But in all cases it's for you to decide if you can work with them or not....

With therapists that act as gate keepers equally they might enjoy the roles they play..... so if you need to do the jumps to get through the hoops, jump yeah will!

But all of us that have been through this crap, see it very much as par for the course.....(sadly)

Thanks for your replies!

@lilacwoman
Yes, that counting horse was called Hans. Made me smile to read how you reacted to these questions.

Quote from: Muffin on November 05, 2010, 07:23:12 AM
What is the procedure in Germany for those that self medicate and then decide to go through the "right" channels?

You get your hormones prescribed so it's a good way to avoid the nasty waiting period for hormones. However, shrinks tend to make it a lot harder and longer for you before they give you the okay for SRS. The rationale goes like this: by having taken hormones, you have already created some physical changes which you might be reluctant to reverse, thereby pushing yourself through transition before proper diagnosis has been made. Plus, it makes diagnosis much harder and requiring longer time, as hormones change you psychologically, which also pushes you towards transition.  The 24/7 every-day-life test before hormones which is necessary to assure the diagnosis has probably not been done long enough.

So you better don't tell anyone if you self-medicate unless you don't mind getting your SRS delayed, or the letters for the name change. The flaws of this rationale is that going full-time also causes lots of effects which are irreversible, social effects - you cannot go back into the closet again. And that hormones are often also used as a diagnostic tool as well and it's quite arguable whether the test really must be done BEFORE hormones.

Quote from: Aidan_ on November 05, 2010, 07:35:33 AM
You're right, those SOC are truly a waste. Almost anyone who's TS/TG has been having it on their mind for years before seeking a therapist, and it's not a good filter. My psych does a few of the same things yours does. He asks the weirdest questions like, "In your fantasies, do you feel 'safe' having a guy on top? or do you picture a girl?" I told him the former was true, even though you don't have to feel safe just because this guy is on top of you @_@

I don't mind them using a good filter, but, well, the filter should be... good. It can't be good as long as filtering consists of asking such stupid questions and demanding "highly important diagnostic" measures such as sending you to the right bathroom. That's not a filter, that's random stuff. There's just too many shrinks who are clueless about this topic, and that's where these silly questions come from. I was also asked a lot in detail with what leisure-time activities I had as a child. I took the pleasure to annoy my shrink by listing gender-neutral stuff at first, such as jigsaw-puzzles,  reading books, playing with the other kids on the street etc. "Did you also play with dolls?" "Did you wear your hair long or short as a kid?" "Did you fight with the boys sometimes?" Who cares, and what does that have to do with being transsexual? That's about traditional gender role stuff, not gender identity or body dysphoria. Plus I was there as an adult, not as a kid. But our German SoC demand from the shrinks that they depict your "psycho-sexual development" in detail for the letters, so they have to ask these questions. ::)

And I don't understand your shrink's question, what does he mean by "on top"?

@Cruelladeville
The serial offender who is in prison now, what did he do? Sounds awful.

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 05, 2010, 11:36:46 AM
And I don't understand your shrink's question, what does he mean by "on top"?

He meant as in a sexual position with the 'guy on top' instead of the girl. Like classic missionary or something like that. Apparently he thought that was relevant to being TG >_>

Quote from: Muffin on November 05, 2010, 07:23:12 AM
What is the procedure in Germany for those that self medicate and then decide to go through the "right" channels?
I'm curious to see how they react to that because here in Australia when I made my first psychiatrist appointment it was a three month wait so I started self-medicating. When I got there I told him and he was ok about it and sent me for blood tests for that same day instead of making me jump threw a series of hoops first.
His concern was on my health first and foremost which was good. I'm just wondering if they frown upon that there and try and set you back for it or help you jump ahead with proceedings.

About half way through reading your post I actually double checked the username to make sure I wasn't reading one of my own posts and agreeing with it (something I've done before.

;D

I love the harm reduction philosophy. Shame susans.org doesn't.

@ Fence....

He sexually abused patients..... while examining them!

Nice....  >:-)

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 05, 2010, 11:36:46 AM
However, shrinks tend to make it a lot harder and longer for you before they give you the okay for SRS.

This made me think of how the longer you are on anti-androgens the more damage you risk doing to your liver. How do German shrinks justify that?

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 05, 2010, 11:36:46 AM
The rationale goes like this: by having taken hormones, you have already created some physical changes which you might be reluctant to reverse, thereby pushing yourself through transition before proper diagnosis has been made.

When I first saw my psychiatrist he said the decision to go through transition is ultimately mine and that he is there to over see it and facilitate it.
I know I view this a little bit different to most as for me I just knew, I've known since I was five and the hardest part towards coming out was not dealing with my own feelings but others. Those around us also transition in a way and that to me is the part that has required the most focus. But on the other hand I understand there are some that are unsure if it's the right thing for them... but to me that is what a psychologist is for. They are optional here in Australia.. you can skip that step if you show confidence with who you are. To have a shrink that needs that much convincing to me suggests prejudice.. and letting their own opinion weigh in more than yours.

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 05, 2010, 11:36:46 AM
Plus, it makes diagnosis much harder and requiring longer time, as hormones change you psychologically, which also pushes you towards transition.  The 24/7 every-day-life test before hormones which is necessary to assure the diagnosis has probably not been done long enough.

Germany sounds horrible for TSs so far :-/   especially compared to Australia.  I never realised just how easy it's been here. It seems like shrinks over there are really sceptical of TSs yet here in my experience (other than a few idiot GPs) they've all understood me completely and helped virtually without question. For my SRS referral I went once and was there for 20mins. I told him I was there for my SRS referral and he said fine did you want a second copy sent straight to your surgeon? Then we talked about it for less than a few minutes and went onto something else :S
I have a spare room if you wanna move here lols :P

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 05, 2010, 11:36:46 AM
So you better don't tell anyone if you self-medicate unless you don't mind getting your SRS delayed, or the letters for the name change. The flaws of this rationale is that going full-time also causes lots of effects which are irreversible, social effects - you cannot go back into the closet again. And that hormones are often also used as a diagnostic tool as well and it's quite arguable whether the test really must be done BEFORE hormones.

That is the problem with gender identity it can be such a hard thing to determine and explain, it's like asking someone on the spot to define love in one or two sentences. It's a feeling and what you feel can't always be put into words well enough let alone in a way that will convince a sceptic. And they obviously have a piece of paper with the "correct" answers that they check you against.. which needless to say is major BS. To me gender is a vibe.... you sense it in people it's not a series of predetermined questions.. it's different in everyone as there are different locations on the gender spectrum one can be imo. blah.

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 05, 2010, 11:36:46 AM
I don't mind them using a good filter, but, well, the filter should be... good. It can't be good as long as filtering consists of asking such stupid questions and demanding "highly important diagnostic" measures such as sending you to the right bathroom. That's not a filter, that's random stuff. There's just too many shrinks who are clueless about this topic, and that's where these silly questions come from. I was also asked a lot in detail with what leisure-time activities I had as a child. I took the pleasure to annoy my shrink by listing gender-neutral stuff at first, such as jigsaw-puzzles,  reading books, playing with the other kids on the street etc. "Did you also play with dolls?" "Did you wear your hair long or short as a kid?" "Did you fight with the boys sometimes?" Who cares, and what does that have to do with being transsexual? That's about traditional gender role stuff, not gender identity or body dysphoria. Plus I was there as an adult, not as a kid. But our German SoC demand from the shrinks that they depict your "psycho-sexual development" in detail for the letters, so they have to ask these questions. ::)

Who knows more about what someone feels? The person in question or the one with a bias opinion asking irrelevant questions? The fact that different countries have different methods suggest that one is more correct than the other yet I assume doctors don't want to admit that. If they really knew about it as well as most TSs then there wouldn't be any animosity.
Is Australia doing it wrong because it seems so much easier? Or are we doing it better? It would be interesting to see the success rates of different countries that use different methods and different amounts of hoops.
If the end result is happiness and a better life then it's a success and if that can be achieved with less hoops then awesome.. that is the better (smarter) way.. but I guess we have to consider other things like the system, money, liability-fear and stubborn doctors who haven't updated their medical literature since the mid 70's. :-/
*checks*.. yep room is still avail! ^___^

These horses called shrinks were never little mixed up kids like the vast majority of we TS so of course they cannot relate to us and our need for quick transition once we have come out of the closet.

Then depending on which old horse trained them as a mirror image of itself they can only believe that anyone who doesn't want to be a horse must have deep mental problems and this can only be determined by asking questions about whether we imagine ourselves as a mare under a stallion or a stallion on a mare.

Simple really  :D

Out in the wild there are no stallions that fancy other stallions or mares that shack up with other mares but maybe there are a lot of stallions that wish they could wear the pretty flowing covers the jousting horses wear.  Or are those horses just ->-bleeped-<-?

Medieval Times Dinner & Jousting Tournament (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDUGaNX4VS0#)
The horse in black and white looks a little timid so obviously needs to go to a shrink to discuss getting on T to get some aggressiveness.

Sorry this is awfully long again!

Quote from: Muffin on November 05, 2010, 10:38:42 PM
This made me think of how the longer you are on anti-androgens the more damage you risk doing to your liver. How do German shrinks justify that?

No idea. As far as I know, they are much cooler about prescribing anti-androgens to MTFs than prescribing estrogens, as estrogens "have long-term effects, changing your body a bit more into female mode, which may make you do wrong decisions too early". (Killing yourself because of anti-androgens driving you into a depression has an even more long-term result, but who cares?)

Quote from: Muffin on November 05, 2010, 10:38:42 PM
I know I view this a little bit different to most as for me I just knew, I've known since I was five and the hardest part towards coming out was not dealing with my own feelings but others. Those around us also transition in a way and that to me is the part that has required the most focus. But on the other hand I understand there are some that are unsure if it's the right thing for them... but to me that is what a psychologist is for.

Agree 100%. But it shouldn't be forced upon us, to go see a shrink for that. There's a lot of other people you can ask as well. Like your priest etc. I don't say that's the best solution, but we're adults so it would be great to treat us as such, letting us make our own choices. Plus there's a lot of body modifications you can do, face tattoos etc., which have a great social impact. Without needing letters first. That's a double standard.

Quote from: Muffin on November 05, 2010, 10:38:42 PM
They are optional here in Australia.. you can skip that step if you show confidence with who you are. To have a shrink that needs that much convincing to me suggests prejudice.. and letting their own opinion weigh in more than yours. Germany sounds horrible for TSs so far :-/   

Well that sounds great. And about Germany... German shrinks are usually not up-to-date. There's even a GIC (gender incompetence centre or whatever that means) far in the North of Germany where one of the leading shrinks of Germany, Bosinski, has a lot to say, and in the scene he's known as a shrink to avoid. Well he says that physical transition effects for FTMs is mostly based on illusions, and that mostly nothing happens there on a physical basis. Oh yeah, and FTMs are almost always only into females, point. Er, well, I've seen transmen on hormones for 5-10 years, and yes, you cannot figure out any moe they were not natal females as long as they're not undressed. I just guess that transmen avoid this guy like hell, so he doesn't ever see how testosterone long-time effects are. Otherwise, no comment... Unfortunately, this guy is very famous and has a lot to say. Well, his research upon hormones and transsexuality are very good, this I have to admit.

Quote from: Muffin on November 05, 2010, 10:38:42 PM
I never realised just how easy it's been here. It seems like shrinks over there are really sceptical of TSs yet here in my experience (other than a few idiot GPs) they've all understood me completely and helped virtually without question. For my SRS referral I went once and was there for 20mins. I told him I was there for my SRS referral and he said fine did you want a second copy sent straight to your surgeon? Then we talked about it for less than a few minutes and went onto something else :S
I have a spare room if you wanna move here lols :P

Well here in Germany it depends on who you deal with. Much of the psychoanalytical section is as esoteric and pseudo-scientifical as it has always been. Meaning, they tell you bull->-bleeped-<- about oedipal phase and blabla gone wrong in your childhood, making you transsexual, a disorder of your psycho-sexual development. Though the oedipal phase etc. has never been proven at all. I wouldn't mind about it, but these esoteric Sh*theads had a big say for our German Standards of Care etc. and still have a lot to say about us otherwise. It's really nasty. For transsexuals as well as for those shrinks who don't buy into this ideology but have to write up this stuff.

Unfortunately, this is the school which pinned down in the German SoC that shrinks have to describe your "psycho-sexual development" in detail. Which violates your human right for private sphere, to put it gently, as the letters have to describe it and they get sent to the health insurance companies. And these letters are usually also used for the name change here, as we need shrinks' letters for the name change. This means judges have to read about your masturbation phantasies etc. if they read through the letters - which does not respect the judges' wish for being protected from other people's privacy either.  Er, if you ever asked me whether I told the kinky stuff to my shrink - no. For exactly these reasons. I don't mind telling kinky stuff to anybody, but I don't want that stuff to be found somehwere in official files or force a conservative judge to read through that stuff - as long as I don't know he/she feels at ease reading it.

In their "academic" schools, until a couple of years ago, the psychoanalysts even mostly forbade gays and lesbians to become psychoanalysts as these people were considered to be so deranged in their pre-oedipal or whatever development that they couldn't treat other patients well. This has improved a bit meanwhile, but I still cannot take this esoteric psychoanalytical bull->-bleeped-<- serious. And I'm sure that they won't treat transsexuals with the due respect deserved to any human beings for the next couple of decades. (Sure, you may find good exceptions and great shrinks there blabla, but I just don't have any reason to put even the slightest trust into this school of thought.) I know of an MTF shrink who had applied as a visitant for an important psychoanalytical workshop/seminary about transsexuality. She was refused without any reason, and she took apply to the anti-discrimination law we have here. No reactions yet. It was THIS YEAR.  >:(

All this would be unimportant if this pseudo-scientifical shrink school had not taken over so much power here. Their academies etc. with their bogus theories still have impact on how we get treated in future by  the law, though. One of their biggest struggles at the time is that the European Union has set up anti-discrimination directives, also about discrimination against gays & lesbians etc. So in Germany, over time, they'll either have to bend to the EU laws or declare their school of thought/academies as a "religious community" so they can keep on blocking out gays and lesbians, and I'm not even talking about trans people here. Which at least would show how unscientific this bull-->-bleeped-<- is. Haha. If you think I'm telling bull->-bleeped-<- here, feel free to ask and I can bombard you with lots of good links - most of them in German, though.

I met Sophinette Becker, one of the most important "heads" of that German esoteric shrink community, in person, a couple of years ago. It was about getting a letter for my name change. First of all, the whole trans community had been suspecting her to be transsexual herself, but nobody ever got a clue. I didn't know either after leaving her, I even tried to pin her down on her unusual forename as I had a good excuse to do that (my natal forename is close to her forename), but I got no conclusive answer after asking. Otherwise, her appearance etc. was ambiguous, might have been natal or not.

Well, whatever - she addressed me as a male, which is nice. But I knew from her publications that she referred to FTMs as females, even after their operations etc. So I mentioned that to her, told her I found it polite that she addressed me well, but did not think much of it due to her publications. And she can go on addressing me as a male for politeness, but can also harshly adress me as a female as at least that would be honest as I know her publications. Well she answered with a psycho gibberish which I cannot replicate here and did not understand then, and said something like becoming transsexual is a creative solution to otherwise unsolvable problems. (???) Plus she asked me a lot of questions about eating disorders, whether I had been anorexic etc. (I was a little bit chubby then, but not obese). Er, no. I tend to eat too much in a hurry when I'm having hypoglycemia (lack of sugar in your metabolism) as I'm hungry as hell then, trembling, hungry as a wolf, but that's a metabolism disorder, not an eating disorder, I have pre-diabetes, and this I told her. Well I also had stopped eating almost anything for about one week after watching a report about how animals are treated in Europe and did not stomach that well. But that was just one week.

And I also told her about having eaten badly for two or three month after my metabolism suddenly changed and my hungriness was not always hypoglycemia any more but just normal hunger and I did not know that feeling before as normal hunger was like nothing to me compared to hypoglycemic attacks, so I tended to ignore it instead of eating then. But I had gotten it under control with the great therapist I had then. He happened to have been working in a psychosomatic clinic before, and had dealt with anorexic patients etc. He told me I was not anorexic or anything, but had to learn to understand the normal "hunger" feeling other than the wolfish hypoglycemic hunger attacks, which are much stronger and can even cause cannibalistic thoughts. (Yeah, twice or thrice, during hypoglycemic attacks, in my thoughts, I had slized up the arm of my colleague when I saw it, and had thrown the slizes into a pan. Sounds psychopathic as hell, but it's normal if you're suffering from a hypoglycemic attack.) Well and he was great for that and I learned how to deal with "normal" hunger. Best coincidance ever. This I told her and she accepted it.

I also asked her, why these questions? And she told me, she had found out, lots of anorexic FTMs did not do well by getting hormones and stuff, so giving the okay for all that was difficult in these cases and had to be thought over well and given more time. Wow, I had a metabolism disorder, but no anorexia at all, never had anorexia, so no problems with that gatekeeper. Since then, I also knew why Becker was known as "the shrink you can go to, unless you suffer(ed) from anorexia". Okay. I told her this bluntly and added that maybe some of the anorexics avoid her once they know about this rumor, probably the more clever ones. And that this means that she does not get statistically typical anorexic people any more, but just the cases who don't gather enough information in advance - i. e. people with less education, less scepticism, less survival skills when it comes to find out helpful support groups etc. than the average person. Which means since rumor got round that the was a difficult gatekeeper for anorexic FTMs, she might get exactly those cases in her office, who are less skilled at "survival" and getting their minds through the system - so that her cases are not representative for all anorexic FTMs anymore. Which means her observance on these cases will not be representative either any more.

She replied to me with a kind of bitter smile, saying, yes, she knows about these mechanisms/problems, and these are very bad for the concerned persons, if hormones/surgery are not good for them, but she hopes other shrinks will take care of that as well and delay physical treatment until the case is clear. Er well... wasn't quite the answer I'd have liked to hear. Well, since knowing about this new pit-fall, if I were not only transsexual, but also anorexic, I'd never tell about my eating disorder to anybody, so  I don't get the necessary health care delayed or jeopardized. Yes, that's contra-productive in my opinion. She published her findings in Germany, and lots of shrinks here read it, so the news got round. I don't mind getting examined more thoroughly if your body dysphoria might be in context of your anorexic dysphoria, but I don't think it will work to make it difficult on everybody who's anorexic. It will just raise the gatekeeper-patient barrier higher and decrease the degree of honesty.

Quote from: Muffin on November 05, 2010, 10:38:42 PM
That is the problem with gender identity it can be such a hard thing to determine and explain, it's like asking someone on the spot to define love in one or two sentences. It's a feeling and what you feel can't always be put into words well enough let alone in a way that will convince a sceptic. And they obviously have a piece of paper with the "correct" answers that they check you against.. which needless to say is major BS. To me gender is a vibe.... you sense it in people it's not a series of predetermined questions.. it's different in everyone as there are different locations on the gender spectrum one can be imo. blah.

I get what you mean here. Completely. And well, not being able to answer such questions on the spot well... doesn't mean you're not transsexual. Just means you cannot put this stuff into words easily.

Quote from: Muffin on November 05, 2010, 10:38:42 PM
Who knows more about what someone feels? The person in question or the one with a bias opinion asking irrelevant questions? The fact that different countries have different methods suggest that one is more correct than the other yet I assume doctors don't want to admit that. If they really knew about it as well as most TSs then there wouldn't be any animosity.

The best example of that is the German holy cow of "one year real-life experience without hormones". It's absolutely silly for those folks who don't pass well before hormones but will pass well once on hormones. And forces them to either ridiculouse themselves unnecessarily, or to lie to their shrinks. In much of German literature about that topic, you read that this silly test is absolutely necessary for diagnosis, should be done at least one year before you prescrive hormenes blabla, with the exception maybe of people black-mailing you into prescribing them hormones as otherwise they'd kill themselves, which shows how pathological many trans people tend to be blabla..., some of their books from 2 or 3 years ago even pretend that NOWADAYS, the International SoC request that pre-hormone-test though this has not been true any more since 2001 or something and it's easy to read that up. And they still use this bogus argumentation to back-up this typically German request of the real-life experience before hormones. Wow - that's either transphobia or free-willing stupidity.


I think German professionals are just too lazy or bad in English to read up recent English publications, or too proud to admit that they've made wrong emphasis for decades, and that they don't respect their patients enough to listen to them - complaints about the forced RLE before hormones are even documented in the German SoC, and the German Soc says that such complaints should be ignored. Well, so much about respect and hierarchies and cooperations. Throughout German literature you can read explicitely that patients object to this non-hormone-test but that these objections should be ignored, as well as the patients' complaints about being submitted to ridicule unnecessarily etc. Well, yes, Germans are no Nazis any more, but they haven't learned much since then when it comes to authorities and hierarchies. I don't object to SM-like scenarios and master-slave-relationships, but I really prefer to get involved with them on a voluntary basis. Thank you.

Quote from: Muffin on November 05, 2010, 10:38:42 PM
Is Australia doing it wrong because it seems so much easier? Or are we doing it better? It would be interesting to see the success rates of different countries that use different methods and different amounts of hoops.
If the end result is happiness and a better life then it's a success and if that can be achieved with less hoops then awesome.. that is the better (smarter) way.. but I guess we have to consider other things like the system, money, liability-fear and stubborn doctors who haven't updated their medical literature since the mid 70's. :-/
*checks*.. yep room is still avail! ^___^

Such studies would be awesome. Well and yes, docs who are not up-to-date but stubborn are not good. Well lots of questions my shrink asked me seemed to me like he had learned that from some 70ies literature - about MTFs. And then asked me about it, just reversing the genders.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.tladesignz.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F09%2Ffacepalm.jpg&hash=bb0f491e41cbc7ede251b750937b40b46b58c303)

Hi,

New here, well I have been reading the forum for a while, but thought is was about time I started participating.

I am 23 and from Denmark but currently living in a remote-ish part of Australia.


Anyway,
I have had heaps of these weird questions, like.

Are you attracted to yourself?
Had to say no to that cause when I see myself in the mirror I mostly start picking out all the things that are wrong, well lately I have been trying to focus on the short list of things that actually look right. But still, when I see myself in the mirror the first thing that comes to mind certainly isn't "What a hot guy".
So after this "NO" in a questioning voice accompanied by a puzzled face, the psychiatrist felt the need to explain that almost all transsexuals find their pre transition bodies attractive and would quite like to meet them.
This seemed off the planed weird to me at the time, still does, but I cant stop wondering how many (if any) really feel that way?


Was going to put down more examples of questions here but I have hit a blank.


I gave him the benefit of the doubt because he was great at helping me get over being depressed, but over the last few months I have been convinced that he just don't understand this at all.

I have been wearing women's clothing for about 5 month now, started out mixing it slowly and the last two months I haven't been wearing men's clothing at all, well except for underwear and socks, but is low on money so that will have to wait a bit. Now I didn't tell the shrink this as I thought he would notice first time and when he didn't I just got curious of how far I could go before he would notice, I mean he would be looking for it wouldn't he?
Actually nobody has noticed, or if they have just not mentioned it. Then again I just wear jeans, t-shirts, polo shirts and occasional cargo pants. Have just been trying to only buy stuff that I can wear every day and at work as money is a bit short at the moment.

Anyway back to the shrink story...
So this guy wants me to built up muscle and gain weight before we can even talk more about my transition and how I feel about it all. This is kind of one of the reasons I haven't really told him what I am doing about it, cause he haven't really given me a chance. Sure I don't mind gaining like 5-10 kg as that would put me right in the middle of the normal weight range, I am currently 2 kg under weight, but if I am going to do that then I want it to go to the right places and not just some ugly belly blob. The GP is not really concerned about my weight at all, as I have been stable on it for years.
Now last time I went to see him I wore a red tee with an anarchist logo on it and some jeans, I thought it looked quite nice. He just made fun of how it made me look even more skinny, how I was the smallest anarchist he had ever seen and that I seriously needed to build up my arm mussels. Normally I wear a polo shirt when I go see him and I didn't really think it would make much of a difference in how I look as both are short sleeved and shows my arms anyway. Oh well, it did cheer me up a bit when I stoped by my mums place later in the afternoon and she commented on how those jeans looked good on me. I am not out to her yet.


Didn't mean to write such a wall when I started but it all just kind of flowed out.

Can't resist, just one more thing...
Ok, so this is a bit off topic but just have to share it.
I went and got new shoes yesterday, like my first pair of women's shoes, just everyday shoes, maybe a bit androgen, but still, it was from the women's section of the shoe store, and they look nice with the jeans.
The sales guy was like really nice and chatty, made me feel happy for the rest of the day.

And Americans complain, bitch, moan and all that because here you more or less just buy that diagnosis.

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 07, 2010, 01:46:59 PM
Well, since knowing about this new pit-fall, if I were not only transsexual, but also anorexic, I'd never tell about my eating disorder to anybody, so  I don't get the necessary health care delayed or jeopardized.... I don't mind getting examined more thoroughly if your body dysphoria might be in context of your anorexic dysphoria, but I don't think it will work to make it difficult on everybody who's anorexic. It will just raise the gatekeeper-patient barrier higher and decrease the degree of honesty.

That doesn't surprise me as far as the typical treatment of eating-disordered people.  We get a lot of the same forms of disrespect from our doctors as trans people (though this might just be my perception because I am both).  Generally doctors concentrate on restoring our bodies to a healthy weight, without any regard to our mental health until we are physically at the place they want us.  Our personal thoughts and opinions are discounted, and we get hit with all sorts of manipulation tactics like

"You are hurting yourself so much for no reason"
"Stop thinking/talking like that because it doesn't help"
"Trust me, you just don't know what you really want"
"You got a chance to control your own life, but you blew it"

In the best known hospitals for eating disorders the accepted treatment is to take away all choice from the patient's life, put them on a forced meal plan and gradually "reward" them if they comply by restoring their privileges, possessions, and freedoms.  Of course the anorexic plays the good patient, fakes wholehearted commitment to the meal plan, and then goes right back to starving as soon as no one is looking.  The relapse rate is up around 50%. 

Sure, some people with eating disorders are just shallow types who really don't care about anything except their weight.  But I don't think that's as common as our doctors would have you think.  Like any other form of self-injury an eating disorder develops as a coping mechanism to deal with high stress, loss of control, or a pre-existing emotional problem. 

From my perspective it's disrespectful and intolerant treatment disguised as caring and healing, just the same as clueless doctors give to trans people.  Concentrating on our unnatural desires for our own bodies, delegitimizing/invalidating our identities, twisting our arms until we agree to appear normal, while the issue that caused our behavior never gets addressed.  I have heard the exact same things with regard to my eating disorder and my gender identity - that I am a pitiful lost girl, who can't stop hating herself. 

Needless to say it interferes drastically with your transition (or any personal goals) and causes people to see you as a mentally ill patient, not a sane person dealing with their problems in an unhealthy way.  Basically it is taken as an excuse to treat you like less of a human being. 

I think a line needs to be drawn with eating disorders. Some anorexic patients really are so physically sick and in such bad condition that it's (a) absolutely critical that they get some nutrition and calories right away just to be sure they'll survive and remain conscious long enough to get some benefit from therapy, and (b) absolutely unreasonable to expect them to make serious progress in therapy, or even make reasoned decisions, because starvation beyond a certain level has effects on brain chemistry and judgment as well as on the body.

But you can be below normal weight - significantly so - and still be physically and mentally functional. You have to be quite severely underweight for there to be any short-term danger; being mildly to moderately underweight poses long-term threats to your health, but not short-term ones. It's ridiculous and stupid to demand that a patient reach normal weight before his/her autonomy can be respected and s/he can be treated as a partner in the treatment process. Doctors should be able to distinguish between patients whose eating disorder is an immediate physical threat to their survival and those whose disorder is a psychologocal condition with long-term physical health repercussions, and treat the two groups accordingly (moving patients from the first group into the second as appropriate).

And just in general denying patients' autonomy just creates a counterproductive, adversarial relationship, where patients have an incentive to cheat and lie and manipulate. It's stupid. The same can be said for trans treatment protocols like Fencesitter describes. Any time you have an adversarial relationship between teacher and student, therapist and client, doctor and patient, you've created a lack of trust and an incentive to be dishonest.

Kyril, you say it like it is, not as OMG BIASED RANT as me :) thanks.  I do think there is a point where someone with an eating disorder can't function because their health has degraded so significantly, and making their decisions for them may be the only possibility in that situation.  Still I suspect that doctors show greater respect for the autonomy of someone who is physically and mentally incapable for other reasons. 

Quote from: Lisa on November 23, 2010, 08:11:42 AM
I have had heaps of these weird questions, like.

Are you attracted to yourself?
Had to say no to that cause when I see myself in the mirror I mostly start picking out all the things that are wrong, well lately I have been trying to focus on the short list of things that actually look right. But still, when I see myself in the mirror the first thing that comes to mind certainly isn't "What a hot guy".
So after this "NO" in a questioning voice accompanied by a puzzled face, the psychiatrist felt the need to explain that almost all transsexuals find their pre transition bodies attractive and would quite like to meet them.

WTF??? Pre-transition, you can find yourself objectively either attractive or non-attractive when looking in the mirror, no matter if that person represents you or not. I thought I looked very cute or sexy or serious in the mirror with certain clothes, hair-dos etc., and just unattractive and ugly with other ones. But none of the mirror images was me. It was not just fooling myself, I got hit on a lot with some stylings and not at all with others.

Quote from: Lisa on November 23, 2010, 08:11:42 AM
I have been wearing women's clothing for about 5 month now, started out mixing it slowly and the last two months I haven't been wearing men's clothing at all, well except for underwear and socks, but is low on money so that will have to wait a bit. Now I didn't tell the shrink this as I thought he would notice first time and when he didn't I just got curious of how far I could go before he would notice, I mean he would be looking for it wouldn't he?

No idea, just let me tell you, I did the same stuff with my underwear. I'm very stingy and use up anything until it falls apart. I'm sure I still have some female stuff somewhere in my cupboard.

I don't know that much about anorexia as I've never had a real eating disorder, but let me tell you, I know plenty of people who are a bit underweight and always were. Some of them have just a crazy metabolism, they can eat whatever they want without gaining weight. If your bit of underweight has been stable for the last couple of years, I'd just say it's nature. People come in all shapes and weights. It often runs in the family. Anorexia is in the brain and in what preoccupies you, it's not in the numbers on your scale. Maybe you're anorexic, maybe not. It's the mindset that counts there, and the preoccupation.

I don't know how you look, but if you're just another skinny person, I don't see the point of your therapist trying to normalize you. It's not nice as well making fun of how you look, there's lots of skinny persons out there. You might have an eating disorder, I don't know you, but you might as well be perfectly normal and just have a crazy metabolism. Sometimes, this runs in families. Or a lack of whatever vitamin or metal in you.(I'd get that checked up, though, if possible)
Nice to hear about your new shoes, I hope you feel comfortable in them.

@shiinee
I've seen a few reports about anorexic people, and what you tell me confirms me in what I saw there.
As far as I know, anorexic people (and even people starving without wanting to) may reach a grade where it becomes difficult for them to eat. Many concentration camp survivors exhibited these traits as well after being freed. Plus students from a scientific "starvation" study in the 50ies or 60ies ended up like that, they ate not enough for a couple of months and did not want to eat enough any more even after the study had finished. Something happens to their instincts, brain, metabolism... I don't know exactly. So for these cases, it may be okay to force people to eat until the brain functions normally again, with enough fuel to run on.

On the other hand, lots of the treatments I have seen on TV wouldn't work for me if I were anorexic, as I'm kind of a rebel, and the treatments are very shallow and authoritarian. And as far as I see, a big problem for many anorexic people is: they see themselves in the mirror as fat, but are very thin. You cannot just talk that out of someone. Autoritarian advances don't help there either. Taking photographs of the people and showing them to them seems to work better.

I've seen a report about a clinic where they forced them to eat fast food to gain weight - hamburgers, french fries with mayonnaise, fried fish sticks etc. and they had no food choice and had to eat up the mayonnaise etc., had to eat all up like little kids. The food was unhealthy high-calory food, which is okay for starved people as a first aid, but I think does not work well for anorexics. Not enough veggies, vitamines etc. And you cannot fool anorexics there, they know lots about food and KNOW when something's not healthy and unhealthy stuff gets forced on them. Not just "too fatty" (starved people need fat), but unhealthy in terms of vitamins etc. as well.

Lots of people in Europe wouldn't eat that stuff at all, and some would have a hard time stomaching that food, and many others would find it disgusting as it's just too fat. Even I could only eat that up if I'm in the right mood and sometimes have trouble stomaching this stuff, though I'm a renowned trash can for food and eat almost anything. Even German "Hausmannskost" (houseman's food), that is, German traditional food for hard-working people, would be much healthier, it's like Polish, Russian etc. traditional winter season cuisine. Sausage soups, lentil soups, marinated beef, roulades, herring marinated in cream, etc. All that served with potatoes, delicious German bread, Spätzle (Southwest-German pasta) or great bread dumplings, cooked red cabbage, sauerkraut, various radishes or salads. Many calories, very fatty, but great & tasty if it's well cooked and balanced, and vitamines galore (apart from Vitamin C). I think it is awful to force certain foods upon people in anorexia clinics, they oughta have the choice between two or three different menues at least, different styles. I'm sure even traditional German winter meals would work better for anorexics than this mayonnaise fast food trash (added with oranges, apples etc. the vitamin intake for German winter food might be okay).

Sounds weird? Prepared by a good cook, German food is delicious, believe me, though it's no Haute Cuisine. Our sausages and bread are much better than the US standard. I went to the USA (Boston, New York) and well, yes, it's no comparison. I was shocked. I spent two days walking around generally, but also looking desperately for decent bread until I found an acceptable bakery in the Italian quarter (wonderful, tasty white bread: Ciabatta - but still no good wholemeal bread). The USA are great for lots of things, but not for bread and sausages. I'd surely have a very hard time in a US-american anorexic clinic.

I don't even want to know how such an anorexic clinic's fast food program would have been for, e. g. a Japanese immigrant. Undigestable.

I also think anorexia is connected to a self-control issue in many cases. You cannot deal with it in an artificial environment where people force you to eat certain things. Once out of the program, you'll fall back into old habits.

And I've also experienced other people having no understanding at all for anorexic people. They don't seem to understand that it's difficult to them to eat high-caloric food. And I think it's awful that anorexics are often treated as sub-humans, not taken seriously, asked to "just eat more" etc. Also, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to treat anorexics in a program which is basically about their weight. It won't help them focus away from that topic.

I've never had anorexia, but developed a kind of pseudo-anorexia for a while cause I have a metabolism disorder. I often fall into hypoglycemic attacks, making me instantly hungry like a wolf, really trembling for hunger, and occasionally even causing cannibalistic thoughts (seriously! my colleague's arm cut into slizes and frizzling in a pan... yes I have these thoughts when I suffer such attacks). But my metabolism changed for a while, so I did not have these attacks for months. Hunger, for me, before, had always been = horrible hypoglycemic attacks, as it was always like that.

I'd never been used to interpret normal hunger feelings as "hunger" since my teenage years, and so just ignored them and did not eat then. So after the change of metabolism I suddenly had a hard time eating and lost a lot of weight, even got underweight. Had a good therapist then, though for other problems, and just "hijacked" him for treating this. Thanks God, he had been working at a clinic for eating disorders and adapted his know-how to my atypical case and got me out of trouble in just 2-3 few months. But that was not a "genuine" eating disorder I had, not with a deeply psychological motivation, it was just an action-reaction problem on a primitive level which came up after my metabolism had become a bit more normal. However, without him, I don't know if I would have gotten out of trouble I faced then.

Quote from: kyril on November 23, 2010, 10:55:38 AM
And just in general denying patients' autonomy just creates a counterproductive, adversarial relationship, where patients have an incentive to cheat and lie and manipulate. It's stupid. The same can be said for trans treatment protocols like Fencesitter describes. Any time you have an adversarial relationship between teacher and student, therapist and client, doctor and patient, you've created a lack of trust and an incentive to be dishonest.

This, yes!!!!

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 23, 2010, 07:15:34 PM
WTF??? Pre-transition, you can find yourself objectively either attractive or non-attractive when looking in the mirror, no matter if that person represents you or not. I thought I looked very cute or sexy or serious in the mirror with certain clothes, hair-dos etc., and just unattractive and ugly with other ones. But none of the mirror images was me. It was not just fooling myself, I got hit on a lot with some stylings and not at all with others.

I don't think I can really be objective about it.
I can set my hair and wear nice clothes so that I look good and guys at the gay bars/night clubs are attracted to me, but I still would not say that I am attracted to myself, that just does not work with the way I think.
Maybe I am getting too much in to semantics, and the shrink really just meant if I thought I looked good. Which would have been a not terrible at the time and quite ok at the moment.
Oh well, on the bright side as laser is reducing the shadow my face is starting to look a lot better.

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 23, 2010, 07:15:34 PM
I don't know that much about anorexia as I've never had a real eating disorder, but let me tell you, I know plenty of people who are a bit underweight and always were. Some of them have just a crazy metabolism, they can eat whatever they want without gaining weight. If your bit of underweight has been stable for the last couple of years, I'd just say it's nature. People come in all shapes and weights. It often runs in the family. Anorexia is in the brain and in what preoccupies you, it's not in the numbers on your scale. Maybe you're anorexic, maybe not. It's the mindset that counts there, and the preoccupation.

I don't know how you look, but if you're just another skinny person, I don't see the point of your therapist trying to normalize you. It's not nice as well making fun of how you look, there's lots of skinny persons out there. You might have an eating disorder, I don't know you, but you might as well be perfectly normal and just have a crazy metabolism. Sometimes, this runs in families. Or a lack of whatever vitamin or metal in you.(I'd get that checked up, though, if possible)
Nice to hear about your new shoes, I hope you feel comfortable in them.

Some times when I am really absorbed in something I can forget to eat, like I will look at the time and suddenly realise that I should really have got something to eat 3 hours earlier. I am sure that if the shrink thought I had a serious eating problem then I would be on a holiday of free accommodation and catering rather than posting to this forum.


I don't know, seeing this psychiatrist is like, sometimes I feel it has been good and helped me out and other times I go away from the sessions thinking he is a complete prick.


Anyway, had all the "sex" questions. What is you're fantasies, how many men/women have you slept with, how did it feel, etc...
All stuff I kind of don't want to share with him.


It is just so frustrating that he wants me to build my body up to that of an average guy, just to see if it would make me feel better.

Quote from: Lisa on November 24, 2010, 04:27:25 AM
It is just so frustrating that he wants me to build my body up to that of an average guy, just to see if it would make me feel better.

To me that sounds just like emotional abuse and invalidation but maybe that's their job(?), how is that different from a non-accepting family member telling you to 'man-up' or "go get a girlfriend and you'll change you're mind" or a mom offering to pay for an 'organ' enlargement operation (*sigh*).

Thank goodness for consent-based treatment. I'm not insured and I can't afford a therapist off my own budget so eventually when I see one it will be because they were going to help me work through things.. not to grant me letters and basically be a god whose approval I have to garner and I still have to pay them for that.


Fencesitter, I fully share your disappointment about the sausages, it's really hard work to find decent sausage here. And omg it would a big stinky mess without public bathrooms  :D

Quote from: Karla on November 25, 2010, 10:26:21 AM
To me that sounds just like emotional abuse and invalidation but maybe that's their job(?), how is that different from a non-accepting family member telling you to 'man-up' or "go get a girlfriend and you'll change you're mind" or a mom offering to pay for an 'organ' enlargement operation (*sigh*).

Don't know, I see him more as an adversary now. Just a game of who outsmarts who.

Quote from: Karla on November 25, 2010, 10:26:21 AM
Thank goodness for consent-based treatment. I'm not insured and I can't afford a therapist off my own budget so eventually when I see one it will be because they were going to help me work through things.. not to grant me letters and basically be a god whose approval I have to garner and I still have to pay them for that.

The shrink is payed by Medicare, so no cost to me, and since I got over being depressed I no longer feel useless, so have been able to go out and get things sorted myself. Now that I don't need a hrt letter from him anymore he has no power.

I wonder if the fact they are a medicare provider makes a difference. They probably get paid less for your visit, so maybe they don't see much motivation in helping you.

Not saying that it's okay for them to think that, just trying to see why some shrinks are total asses while some are angels.

Quote from: Lisa on November 24, 2010, 04:27:25 AM
Anyway, had all the "sex" questions. What is you're fantasies, how many men/women have you slept with, how did it feel, etc...
All stuff I kind of don't want to share with him.

Oh I see... kind of like the same questions I got. They're difficult to answer anyway. Where does "have sex with" start, where does it end? (Ask Bill Clinton... a blow-job was no sex according to him.) It gets even more fuzzy if you've ever been into BDSM clubs and "did" something there. Some of the "try" stuff is almost purely technical and doesn't have much to do with sex ("I've bought this new whip, could you please try it out on me" - "Er, not that I get off on that stuff, but I can do it, sure, hand it over to me.") Also, sometimes you can be strongly involved, and at other times, you just play a kind of assistant's role in a session, sometimes you do it just out of  boredom or cause you're a nice person. ("Slept with her? - er no, but on her mistresse's request, I organized ice cubes at the bar and handed them over to her mistress and she used them on her, and I watched what she did there..." etc.) Try to count this kind of fuzzy situations happening in-between "having sex" and not having it. No chance!

Well I did not tell of these pastime leisures to my shrink anyway as it's none of his business. He also was a lot into psychoanalyis. Psychoanalysis interprets lots of things, and they love this kind of accounts to put their theories on. But psychoanalysis is not scientific at all, rather esoteric, so I don't trust it, didn't trust him therefore etc. I really did not feel like telling him anything about my BDSM stuff at all.

I got this question asked by my shrink: "How many people did you have sex with in your life, and of what sex?"
My answers were:
"1. The gender doesn't count, it happened by chance, I'm bi and don't care about it, and did not make a body count by genders/sex, sorry, I can just give you a total number, not divided by gender or sex."
"2. I slept with a couple of people in my life who were women but had a male body or vice versa, it just happened, how would you make your body count there?"
"3. How many people I had sex with depends on your definition of "sex", er... remember Bill Clinton and the Lewinsky affair?" And when I told him that, it made him laugh.

Then I gave him a fuzzy answer, my real supposed "body count" divided by two or three so that I did not seem too much of a slut but not too unexperienced either. Who is honest about their sex life anyway?

Then he asked me about HOW I had sex with these people and I answered him by asking him whether he was looking for hints to spice up his private sex life. He did not like my reaction. And went on asking, telling me it's important for the diagnosis. Gosh I hated this. Don't have trouble with telling "spicy" stuff, but not on request.

Quote from: Lisa on November 24, 2010, 04:27:25 AM
It is just so frustrating that he wants me to build my body up to that of an average guy, just to see if it would make me feel better.

I see where he's coming from, but that seems stupid to me. I had an affair with a very skinny guy. He had a metabolism disorder, an overactive thyroid, that's why he was so skinny. He said - I could get this fixed by taking medicine, but I don't suffer from it. The main effect is, it makes me skinny, so it's just cosmetic and I'll go with what nature gives me and be fine with myself and my body, I don't suffer from it otherwise, so it's okay. I mean he found his personal solution and he's not a trans woman. Being trans is different from not fitting to your ideals.

Yeah, and I really think, good German bread and sausages are something which might enrich US american culture a lot.

Best wishes.

Quote from: Sutara on November 26, 2010, 10:59:26 AM
I wonder if the fact they are a medicare provider makes a difference. They probably get paid less for your visit, so maybe they don't see much motivation in helping you.

Not saying that it's okay for them to think that, just trying to see why some shrinks are total asses while some are angels.

Doubt it,
More like no risk of me taking my money else where, as well I can't.
But really I don't think this has got anything to do with money or him having anything against me. It is just that last time he had anything to do with anybody transgender was about 20 years ago in a different state.

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 26, 2010, 05:45:50 PM
I got this question asked by my shrink: "How many people did you have sex with in your life, and of what sex?"

Yeah, I was being honest with him about that one. Only result of that was he told me I was inexperienced and then the next 3 months pretty much went with him telling me I needed to go out and get a boyfriend. To me that is the wrong approach, I mean you can't just go out and find someone to love, it is going to happen when it happens, not at a scheduled time and place.

The question I really hate the most is this one:
So if you get this sex change then are you going to sleep with men or women?

I mean how could I possibly answer that, as it is now I prefer guys as I just feel uncomfortable sleeping with women. But I do feel attracted to some women so, who knows how I am going to feel about it in the future.

I've had some issues with my counselor/therapist being very...gender essentialist - i.e. "Girls don't do X" and  "Only boys do Y", which is very irritating.
Consequently, I'm changing to someone else - not to mention that I've had all my treatment for GID now, so there is no requirement to see a gender therapist.

my therapist here in germany is all "You gotta do a year RLE before hormones!" too. I didn't go right into the hormone thing, because i didn't want to give the impression that i am there just for the hormones. of course i am, but i'm thinking that makes him more open to what i have to say. However our talks feel very antagonistic, and i really don't know what to talk about. lately a lot of the time no one says anything, which really bothers me because when theres silence i need to fill it. at the beginning he made some odd questions about sexuality, but i think once he got that i'm asexual, he stopped. it scares me that i feel happy and that i feel victorious when he contradicts himself or i feel that i have outsmarted him.
anyway, as for hormones, he was really REALLY against it. I can't remember all his arguments, i only know that a few times he said contradictory things and that it really bothers him that i want hormones and haven't been out as a woman, and only have come out to parents, brother, and a close friend all of which don't live near me anymore. Now not long after though, i've got my letter! and an endo has taken my blood! and im waiting for the results to soon start HRT!
i'm not sure what convinced him, after all i did say quite a few things. But the argument i liked the most was "Look, i'm depressed, i'm tomboyish, i just grabbed some sort of unisex male clothes i had lying around, didn't take much care of how i look because i don't care since i'm depressed, and have come here to your session. The only person i've talked to since leaving home was you and you know me as [girl name]. I am a woman and haven't acted otherwise the entire day. i just haven't worn female clothes nor make up. quite a few women do that. If anyone assumed i was male, it was because of how i look. you know what might help with that? hormones."
i'm not sure if he said it that session, i think he did. he told me he'd write me the letter if i called an endo, and he did.

I definitely have an antagonistic relationship with my therapist (who's the kind of therapist to refer to post-transition trans women as "he", and tried to cheer me up by telling a story about how "he" managed to "fool" his partner into thinking "he" was a woman for years). She asked me the question of what sex I am in my sexual fantasies - I told her the truth: Female.

I came in to session 1 with high hopes. I left more depressed than I've ever been in my entire life, and haven't recovered fully since. At this stage, she is my enemy - my nemesis - and I have to defeat her.

So, yeah, I'm right there with you.

When I first brought it up with my psychiatrist he started down the line of genetics, and when I stoped him in that track by saying that the currently possible is good enough. Well then he just continued, saying that he had seen a dozen trans women and that it was easy to tell.

At the end of that same session he tried to tell me that my hands are too big, I mean seriously!! How is that supposed to help???

Quote from: Lisa on November 29, 2010, 06:42:11 AM
When I first brought it up with my psychiatrist he started down the line of genetics, and when I stoped him in that track by saying that the currently possible is good enough. Well then he just continued, saying that he had seen a dozen trans women and that it was easy to tell.

At the end of that same session he tried to tell me that my hands are too big, I mean seriously!! How is that supposed to help???

To which there seems to be an obvious answer - You just tell him "Well that is as maybe, but I would still sooner be obvious and accepted for what I really am (ie a transwoman) than pass for something that I am not (ie a normal male)."

Obviously most of us do manage to blend in afterwards, so the guy is really just using it as an excuse, but perhaps if you can convince him that you don't care then he has to either find something else or he has to give up on that approach and start being more constructive.

He may be only trying to test your resolve because transition is certainly not for the faint hearted, but it is also possible that what you might have to accept is that this guy may not be the right person to help you and if he persists in this negativity then you might need to find another doctor to work with.

Quote from: rejennyrated on November 29, 2010, 06:54:49 AM
To which there seems to be an obvious answer - You just tell him "Well that is as maybe, but I would still sooner be obvious and accepted for what I really am (ie a transwoman) than pass for something that I am not (ie a normal male)."

Obviously most of us do manage to blend in afterwards, so the guy is really just using it as an excuse, but perhaps if you can convince him that you don't care then he has to either find something else or he has to give up on that approach and start being more constructive.

He may be only trying to test your resolve because transition is certainly not for the faint hearted, but it is also possible that what you might have to accept is that this guy may not be the right person to help you and if he persists in this negativity then you might need to find another doctor to work with.

He has never brought that line of argument up again after that day.

Now he wants me to get in contact with support groups in different states, cause well, talking with others in this state is not good enough for some reason.

Quote from: Lisa on November 26, 2010, 08:11:58 PM
Yeah, I was being honest with him about that one. Only result of that was he told me I was inexperienced and then the next 3 months pretty much went with him telling me I needed to go out and get a boyfriend. To me that is the wrong approach, I mean you can't just go out and find someone to love, it is going to happen when it happens, not at a scheduled time and place.

It would be silly to force yourself, and not honest to your new boyfriend as well. However, finding someone to ->-bleeped-<- in the gay scene is not  difficult once you know how the scene "works". But if you're not interested in sex, then of course that's no good option for you.

Quote from: Lisa on November 26, 2010, 08:11:58 PM
The question I really hate the most is this one:
So if you get this sex change then are you going to sleep with men or women?

Oh, I got that asked too.Well, my answer was different from yours (and honest, mind you!): "I haven't ever cared yet, I don't think I'll ever care in the future. I have loved both sexes and genders and have ->-bleeped-<-ed both as well, don't see much of a difference there in terms of attraction, so why would that change?" Maybe it's just nasty to deal with a full-blown bisexual and transsexual patient if you're a therapist and need or want clichés to cling to. P*ssed me off as well as I thought - what does it matter??? But from the viewpoint of psychoanalysis, being bisexual means... I don't remenber it in detail, but it was some very weird quasi-esoteric explanation which probably makes bi people highly fascinating for psychoanalysts as we don't fit neatly into the scheme, even less if we're trans. Has something to do with your anal or oedipal or whatever phase being resolved in an unusual way or whatever. Psychoanalysis is just quackery, pseudo-science (see Wikipedia entry), so who cares what exactly they mean by that. Best advice: don't take that for serious. It's no more scientific than astrology.

Quote from: Layn on November 28, 2010, 05:37:04 PM
my therapist here in germany is all "You gotta do a year RLE before hormones!" too. I didn't go right into the hormone thing, because i didn't want to give the impression that i am there just for the hormones. of course i am, but i'm thinking that makes him more open to what i have to say. However our talks feel very antagonistic, and i really don't know what to talk about. lately a lot of the time no one says anything, which really bothers me because when theres silence i need to fill it. at the beginning he made some odd questions about sexuality, but i think once he got that i'm asexual, he stopped. it scares me that i feel happy and that i feel victorious when he contradicts himself or i feel that i have outsmarted him.

Sure, you haven't been open and out right from the start for what you want from him, so of course that does not help for the relationship. On the other hand, it's interesting how much the non-hormonal 1 year RLE is sooo important in countries where you don't pay the therapist yourself, and in other countries it tends to be much cooler. They seem to be very aware of who pays them... As long as you got the letter, it's fine.

Whatefer, if you have a pseudo-therapeutic relationship with your therapist, best thing to do is: throw pseudo-issues into the sessions which you may work on together and where he may "help" you and feel fine about having been able to help you. I did this with a sick building syndrome of my parents, but based on real toxic substances where they lived, and other stuff as well. Didn't need him for any of that, but it helped us avoid sessions without any talk. That was a good pastime.

Quote from: E on November 28, 2010, 07:44:15 PM
I definitely have an antagonistic relationship with my therapist (who's the kind of therapist to refer to post-transition trans women as "he", and tried to cheer me up by telling a story about how "he" managed to "fool" his partner into thinking "he" was a woman for years). She asked me the question of what sex I am in my sexual fantasies - I told her the truth: Female.

I came in to session 1 with high hopes. I left more depressed than I've ever been in my entire life, and haven't recovered fully since. At this stage, she is my enemy - my nemesis - and I have to defeat her.

So, yeah, I'm right there with you.

Sounds awful, and hope you'll be better soon. I did not have that depressing effect. But dealt with a shrink (psychoanalysis again) for my second letter, and in her writings, she refers to trans people throughout with their gender assigned at birth, even after operation. That was weird. Very weird. But at least I knew where I was with her. You know you deal with a person who does not respect you at all in what you are. I told her that and got a typical semi-esoteric psychoanalytic fuzzy response to my question which I cannot reproduce any more, something with development phases and creative solutions to them. I mean, why don't they send us to astrologists right away? Or people who use a pendulum to figure out if we're trans or not? Both my shrink and she are psychoanalysts, by the way. Very weird.

I hope things will work out fine for you.

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 30, 2010, 12:19:01 AM
It would be silly to force yourself, and not honest to your new boyfriend as well. However, finding someone to ->-bleeped-<- in the gay scene is not  difficult once you know how the scene "works". But if you're not interested in sex, then of course that's no good option for you.

I know it is easy to find someone for sex, I just didn't like the way he put it up as a requirement.
If I want to ->-bleeped-<- someone then I will go do that, but no way am I doing it because someone else tries to push me, no way. In the end he gave up after 3 months and never brought that up again.

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 30, 2010, 12:19:01 AM
Sounds awful, and hope you'll be better soon. I did not have that depressing effect. But dealt with a shrink (psychoanalysis again) for my second letter, and in her writings, she refers to trans people throughout with their gender assigned at birth, even after operation. That was weird. Very weird. But at least I knew where I was with her. You know you deal with a person who does not respect you at all in what you are. I told her that and got a typical semi-esoteric psychoanalytic fuzzy response to my question which I cannot reproduce any more, something with development phases and creative solutions to them. I mean, why don't they send us to astrologists right away? Or people who use a pendulum to figure out if we're trans or not? Both my shrink and she are psychoanalysts, by the way. Very weird.

I hope things will work out fine for you.

An astrologist would probably be just as suited to this, yes. Perhaps more, because they'd likely have fewer preconceptions, and you might be able to just bribe them into letting you through.

I hope so, too. Next session is in a bit less than a week, and I'm quite nervous. I'm unsure whether or not I can expect to be referred on immediatey, or to be held there for another half year, or anything in between. And I hope thing works out for you.

As far as I know, my shrink is not a psychoanalyst, though.

Quote from: Karla on November 25, 2010, 10:26:21 AM
To me that sounds just like emotional abuse and invalidation

Completely agree.  E, Lisa, Layn-- it sounds like you have a relationship with your therapist based on blackmail.  The psych has something you want/need (such as access to hormones), and the root of your interaction is quite simply a threat: "If you don't pass my tests, answer my questions correctly, or behave as I tell you to, I will deny you what you need."  This is emotional abuse pure and simple.  Of course you feel like your therapist is your enemy, because they treat you so antagonistically. 

My response when I had a therapist who attacked me like that was to blackmail her back: I told her if she didn't respect me, I would kill myself.  She was clearly distressed by it, and things escalated into a pretty epic shouting match where we were both tossing around accusations and delegitimizing each other.  Of course she was perfectly capable of recognizing abusive behavior when it was directed at her, but completely blind to it when she directed the same behavior at me.  After that fight I walked out and never went back.  She sent me a letter pleading with me to return and saying we were at a critical point in my therapy, ahahaha no. 

As for how to better deal with that situation stay far afield of any therapist who are "psychoanalytic," "psychodynamic," or mention Freud without laughing.  Unfortunately that doesn't cover all the subtly nasty gatekeeper types.  In that case I admire Fencesitter's tactic of both responding to the question and turning it back on the asker.  I can hardly believe you asked him if he was looking for tips on his own sex life, that's fantastic.  It still seems to make you uncomfortable though, Fence-- you know that if you don't respond in a certain "right" way you are being invalidated.  And even though you are in my estimation a BAMF, all that manipulation and disrespect would hurt anyone. 

You often don't really see the extent of the damage to yourself until it's all over.  That was and is definitely true of me.  I still hear that witch's voice in my head sometimes telling me there must be a "reasonable explanation" for my gender identity and I start to wonder what "issues" in my life could have caused me to be me.  It's a stupid line of thought; I know I either deal honestly with myself or waste my time in fantasy land, and I pick the former.  But it's still there subconsciously as an intense fear reaction whenever something reminds me of her. 

Quote from: E on November 30, 2010, 10:40:52 AM
An astrologist would probably be just as suited to this, yes. Perhaps more, because they'd likely have fewer preconceptions, and you might be able to just bribe them into letting you through.

I think I prefer astrology in these circumstances.  I once had a horoscope told by one of my friends, which said that due to the juxtaposition of Venus and Mars I should expect to feel especially transsexual that day.  What do you know, she was right! :o

Quote from: shiinee on November 30, 2010, 11:56:28 AM
Completely agree.  E, Lisa, Layn-- it sounds like you have a relationship with your therapist based on blackmail.  The psych has something you want/need (such as access to hormones), and the root of your interaction is quite simply a threat: "If you don't pass my tests, answer my questions correctly, or behave as I tell you to, I will deny you what you need."  This is emotional abuse pure and simple.  Of course you feel like your therapist is your enemy, because they treat you so antagonistically.

Yes, definitely. This is what invalidates her opinion - she blackmails me into behaving, and in return I try to manipulate her into believing I'm a good, little patient. I can't confront her, because I can't risk upsetting her enough that she wants to punish me, so I try to suck up to her, and be a good, little ->-bleeped-<-. After all, my situation is entirely temporary, and if I'm lucky, I'll be referred on by Monday.

QuoteYou often don't really see the extent of the damage to yourself until it's all over.  That was and is definitely true of me.  I still hear that witch's voice in my head sometimes telling me there must be a "reasonable explanation" for my gender identity and I start to wonder what "issues" in my life could have caused me to be me.  It's a stupid line of thought; I know I either deal honestly with myself or waste my time in fantasy land, and I pick the former.  But it's still there subconsciously as an intense fear reaction whenever something reminds me of her. 

I don't believe word she says. First session, I pretty quickly learned what type of therapist she is, and thereafter, it's essentially a tug-of-war between us. A tug-of-war I can't lose, because on my end I'm firmly rooted in the ground, and in order to lose, I'd have to be uprooted completely, whereas on her end she has no stake at all. She can make me angry. She can make me depressed. She can make me despair. But she can't make me doubt myself - out of all the people in the world, she is the one whose opinion matters the least to me.

QuoteI think I prefer astrology in these circumstances.  I once had a horoscope told by one of my friends, which said that due to the juxtaposition of Venus and Mars I should expect to feel especially transsexual that day.  What do you know, she was right! :o

My only experience with astrology was my French teacher seating us by star sign.

Quote from: shiinee on November 30, 2010, 11:56:28 AM
Completely agree.  E, Lisa, Layn-- it sounds like you have a relationship with your therapist based on blackmail.  The psych has something you want/need (such as access to hormones), and the root of your interaction is quite simply a threat: "If you don't pass my tests, answer my questions correctly, or behave as I tell you to, I will deny you what you need."  This is emotional abuse pure and simple.  Of course you feel like your therapist is your enemy, because they treat you so antagonistically. 

Thing is, I cant just put my personal feelings on a shelf and go act as someone wants me to. This is why I have given up on ever getting a letter of approval from this shrink.
The reason I am still seeing him is I am somewhat afraid of what power he might have if I cancel the next appointment and never reschedule. I believe he is really dedicated and genuine proud of his work. With Medicare paying the bills I have no power to cut payment.
Well that, and I am curious to see his reaction when he learns that I have bypassed him.

Quote from: shiinee on November 30, 2010, 11:56:28 AM
My response when I had a therapist who attacked me like that was to blackmail her back: I told her if she didn't respect me, I would kill myself.

There is no way I could even threaten to kill myself, it just goes completely against how I am as a person.

Quote from: shiinee on November 30, 2010, 11:56:28 AM
You often don't really see the extent of the damage to yourself until it's all over.  That was and is definitely true of me.  I still hear that witch's voice in my head sometimes telling me there must be a "reasonable explanation" for my gender identity and I start to wonder what "issues" in my life could have caused me to be me.  It's a stupid line of thought; I know I either deal honestly with myself or waste my time in fantasy land, and I pick the former.  But it's still there subconsciously as an intense fear reaction whenever something reminds me of her. 

On the last one of those "list your goals for the next 6 months" questions, I tried to say that I wanted to get started on my transition, I had already got most of my clothing changed by this time so to me I was already well on my way, but would like to at least talk about how I feel about it all.
The only words I managed to get out before getting cut off was "I would like to get started..." that's it, he cut me off half sentence with a "if you do anything now you will be a mental casualty", that really scared me, I couldn't say anything after that.
For the next month or so I was feeling really miserably, wondering if it all was worth it. In the end I decided he was wrong, and if by chance he is right then it is an acceptable risk. I feel so much better now after disregarding his warning and moving ahead anyway.

Quote from: Lisa on December 01, 2010, 08:23:42 AM
There is no way I could even threaten to kill myself, it just goes completely against how I am as a person.

me neither, and i'm pretty sure i've told him that i'd probably never commit suicide.

Quote from: Lisa on December 01, 2010, 08:23:42 AM
There is no way I could even threaten to kill myself, it just goes completely against how I am as a person.

I think that's a good thing, it was supposed to serve as an example of how not to respond, lol.  Unless you really like fights.

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 04, 2010, 08:31:11 PM
It was like being beamed into a culture where I was pathologized for being left-handed and had to pass exams for being allowed to write with my left hand. And then being judged as a real or non-real left-handed guy based on the fact which hand I use when I wipe my ass. By right-handed people who had written or read theories about people like me, often prejudiced or dismeaning theories, and where the ass-wiping had become a central criterium to allow left-handed people use their appropriate hand.

HAHAHA! This analogy is soooo perfect! XD

Quote from: CaitJ on November 26, 2010, 08:35:22 PM
I've had some issues with my counselor/therapist being very...gender essentialist - i.e. "Girls don't do X" and  "Only boys do Y", which is very irritating.
Consequently, I'm changing to someone else - not to mention that I've had all my treatment for GID now, so there is no requirement to see a gender therapist.

Good choice. "Girls don't do X, boys don't do Y" is soooo 50ies! Most therapists are not like that any more, but some tend to fall back on those clichés when they have to deal with trans people. Pfffft!

Quote from: E on November 28, 2010, 07:44:15 PM
I definitely have an antagonistic relationship with my therapist (who's the kind of therapist to refer to post-transition trans women as "he", and tried to cheer me up by telling a story about how "he" managed to "fool" his partner into thinking "he" was a woman for years). She asked me the question of what sex I am in my sexual fantasies - I told her the truth: Female.

I came in to session 1 with high hopes. I left more depressed than I've ever been in my entire life, and haven't recovered fully since. At this stage, she is my enemy - my nemesis - and I have to defeat her.

So, yeah, I'm right there with you.

Yeah, this is very awkward. Makes you feel like a suffragist going to a 19th century therapist for "hysteria". Hope you'll recover soon.

Quote from: Lisa on November 29, 2010, 06:42:11 AM
When I first brought it up with my psychiatrist he started down the line of genetics, and when I stoped him in that track by saying that the currently possible is good enough. Well then he just continued, saying that he had seen a dozen trans women and that it was easy to tell.

At the end of that same session he tried to tell me that my hands are too big, I mean seriously!! How is that supposed to help???

Well I don't know your case personally. I know that a bad passing due to unfair physical aspects may be very bothersome, so maybe it might have made some sense that he told you this. But I know a lot of trans women who get read as female without a problem - and even some ->-bleeped-<- guys. Moreover, saying "I know X trans people and I can read them all" does not mean anything, cause those he cannot read - he does not know that they are trans.

Quote from: shiinee on November 30, 2010, 11:56:28 AMMy response when I had a therapist who attacked me like that was to blackmail her back: I told her if she didn't respect me, I would kill myself.  She was clearly distressed by it, and things escalated into a pretty epic shouting match where we were both tossing around accusations and delegitimizing each other.  Of course she was perfectly capable of recognizing abusive behavior when it was directed at her, but completely blind to it when she directed the same behavior at me.  After that fight I walked out and never went back.  She sent me a letter pleading with me to return and saying we were at a critical point in my therapy, ahahaha no. 

Well I don't know if it's a great solution to blackmail back... but it's good that the therapy broke up.

Quote from: shiinee on November 30, 2010, 11:56:28 AMAs for how to better deal with that situation stay far afield of any therapist who are "psychoanalytic," "psychodynamic," or mention Freud without laughing.  Unfortunately that doesn't cover all the subtly nasty gatekeeper types.  In that case I admire Fencesitter's tactic of both responding to the question and turning it back on the asker.  I can hardly believe you asked him if he was looking for tips on his own sex life, that's fantastic.  It still seems to make you uncomfortable though, Fence-- you know that if you don't respond in a certain "right" way you are being invalidated.  And even though you are in my estimation a BAMF, all that manipulation and disrespect would hurt anyone.

Not quite sure about it. Keeping away from "psychoanalysts" etc. is certainly a good idea, you're right.

I knew my therapist was a psychoanalyst. Which means, his background was as "scientific" as astrology or alchemy. But we had a peculiar relationship, I was quite open about the antagonistic surroundings of our relationship right from the start, telling him, I'm here to get T, you're here to see if it's okay that I get it, so it's not gonna be easy for us. I also told him bluntly right away that if he comes up with an ink blot test (Rorschach) or something like that, I'd be out right away as for me, that was like astrology or hand reading.  And that I'd also leave if he had a couch where I should lay down babbling without seeing him, as this establishes a power pattern. And that I was happy to see that there was no couch. That's how our relationship started. Afterwards, I kept my mouth shut concerning the antagonistic situation in which out relationship was placed, however. It was like the elephant in the room. But sometimes, I alluded to it indirectly with my humor.

I also have a lot of humor, though often absurd, cynical or black humor, and can't help myself using it. And I did not hide that away during our meetings, used it a lot, like always, for many things and topics. So I could also ask him bluntly if he wanted any ideas for his private sex life when he asked me this kind of questions about my sex life, without him hating me for that. It was clear that it was not just a joke, but hinted at the antagonistic situation. But we both laughed.

Quote from: shiinee on November 30, 2010, 11:56:28 AM
You often don't really see the extent of the damage to yourself until it's all over.  That was and is definitely true of me.  I still hear that witch's voice in my head sometimes telling me there must be a "reasonable explanation" for my gender identity and I start to wonder what "issues" in my life could have caused me to be me.  It's a stupid line of thought; I know I either deal honestly with myself or waste my time in fantasy land, and I pick the former.  But it's still there subconsciously as an intense fear reaction whenever something reminds me of her. 

Yeah, it's a bit like being in a cult. It's not that bad as long as you're there but afterwards, you find out what happened and it's nasty and pops up over and over again... These people are authorities, finally, so you gotta take them seriously, aren't you?

Quote from: Fencesitter on November 04, 2010, 08:31:11 PM
- Sorry, long posting again, but I really need to rant -

Hello,

My therapist was a gentle old guy, but very old-fashioned in his view of transgenders/transsexuals. I had no other choice, the only other gender therapist in my region was well-known as being very bad at dealing with FTMs. Well spending time with him was much more a nuisance than a help, though he tried his best.  Well at least I got the letter for hormones after going through this "therapy" for about one year. And that was why I was there, so why complain?

Why I complain is - you have to deal with a system in which the therapist may be less a partner and more an antagonist. You know you want to get the hormones - he has the power to allow or deny them to you. That's annoying in itself, but when you also have to deal with a close-minded view of transsexuality, sometimes studied decades ago, then it can really become nasty.

First of all, let me say that the SoC system does not work well as a filter. I was nervous there and very aware about when he raised his eyebrow in doubt about one of my remarks, and when he nodded happily while he noted stuff. You get a learning effect quite fast, like a horse which learns to react to its master when "counting" with his hooves. Horses can't count, but they react to their masters' reactions and learn when exactly they have to stop counting, as their masters become relaxed right then.

But what really bothered me were the sometimes stupid questions. We agreed upon a 24/7 real life experience for one year without hormones, which is stupid, but he was very insisting on the no-hormone-"gender role change". Let me tell you that's ridiculous as I had no passing before hormones no matter what I tried, but my genetics hinted that it would work quite fast once on Testosterone (which it indeed did - I'm a mediterranean type). But well, the "full-time real life test" without hormones is a holy cow for most therapists in Gernany. Well I got asked silly questions in "gender therapy" before hormones:

"Do you use the male bathrooms all the time now?"
Honest answer would have been: I go to the bathroom I get pointed to as I don't want to freak out people. I also went to the closest bathroom no matter what sex at that time, and had done this occasionally before. Who cares a sh...? I had had a chronical bladder irritation for years, so gender really becomes unimportant there. At worst, you apologize towards the guys and tell them about the bladder problem, that you need to pee NOW and look demonstratively the other way round and hide your eyes demonstratively so they know you don't want to have a look at their penises. And at my workplace, people had transformed the bathrooms into unofficial unisex bathrooms long ago as you don't get your pee breaks paid there so you rush to the next free toilet. That would have been the honest answer.

But I saw him become very aware and waiting for something to write on his notepad, his body became tensed. He wasn't like that often, so I assumed this was an important question which I was not to mess up.
Well I lied at him and told him I always used male bathrooms. He asked more, I described my lies to him. I feel loyal to my company anyway, so I wouldn't tell about their toilet problem, which is illegal in Germany. Plus I really don't see why using male bathrooms before passing as male matters at all for diagnosis. So I see no moral problem here, he was just a gatekeeper. He seemed satisfied and noted down the stuff.

And then I asked him why on earth he asked me that? (I had already learned like a "counting horse" from reading body language that you first answer, then ask why the question had been asked, and without saying that you think that question's ridiculous.)

- "Well it's very important for the diagnosis, because of the RLE. You need to gather experience in your new gender role, and toilets are very very important here"

And I secretely thought WTF???

Later on, I joked with a couple of (non-trans) friends about that and we laughed aloud. In Harry Potter, there's an annoying toilet phantom in their school. Maybe there was one to be found as well in male bathrooms, telling me secrets about my gender identity. Or I could somehow figure out what maleness meens by visiting the male bathrooms and getting the esoteric "male vibrations" there. Or maybe there was something miraculous in male bathrooms' tap water helping me for the diagnosis. We all laughed a lot there. My shrink must probably have read somewhere in the shrinks' literature how important bathrooms are. Well of course they are, imagine New York City without public bathrooms, but well...

Well, at another meeting, he asked me as what I saw myself in my sexual fantasies, and fancy myself, as a male or as a female? He became very tense again, and I became the counting horse again.
But I first told him that this is very private and I considered it none of his business.
He insisted and told me that on my request why? that it was very important for the diagnosis.
Then he stared, very intensely. And I knew I had to save my ass here, as this question seemed to be central.
I fell back into the counting horse mode again and said what seemed appropriate for a transsexual. I had not been prepared to that question, so I could only guess. And ->-bleeped-<-, I did not want to get the hormones denied. No problem with thinking them over or delaying them for myself, but it would have been humiliating for me to get them denied by a "toilets-are-very-important"-shrink. I had no trust in him after the toilet experience. I would have loved to get a good differential diagnosis, but not with that guy.

"I  always feel like a male there etc." (In reality, I just try to trick out the body-mind-descrepancy with various tricks, as when I masturbate, I get "wrong" physical sensations. And the tricks I use turn me neutral or cause a lot of gender-bending fantasies of all sorts and in all directions as work-arounds for my body dysphoria, I don't love them but these fantasies at least kind of work. But all that's none of his business and I don't know if he could ever understand that.)

He seemed satisfied, smiled and noted that. My horse counting act had succeeded.

After that session, however, at home, I searched like crazy to find out what relationship sexual fantasies might have with gender identity, esp. differential diagnosis. Unfortunately, I found nothing. I'd have loved to asked him, but I couldn't cause I did not want to jeopardize the hormone prescription.

It's ridiculous, this all has been years ago, but these long forgotten situations keep on popping up in my mind, like a trauma that I still have not digested. When these memories pop up, I feel kind of ... forced, ridiculized or humiliated. I think I haven't stomached it all yet. I don't know how to put this in words. I'm sure my shrink did not do that on purpose, but honestly, the therapy damaged me more than it helped me. Before, I thought being transgendered was kind of normal, and that, yes, it was normal as well that some of these people transitioned.  About 25% of my friends have been transsexuals or transgenders since I was 20 (androgynes, bigenders etc.), without us belonging to any specific subculture or transgender community, we just met "by chance", it was just human variation. And we were a very varied bunch of people.

Then I had to deal with this gatekeeper, a gentle man, but, well... I had never even thought about it that being transgendered might be considered pathological, that you had to go through exams to get hormones, that people judge you for sometimes silly characteristics and behaviors (like going to the men's bathroom before passing) - and that you had to prove and justify yourself for being transgendered, other than with my friends. Plus my friends never asked me such ridiculous questions. They just knew which bathroom I use means nothing about myself. Nothing. This was all so weird to me, dealing with the system. I really couldn't understand it. It was like being beamed into a culture where I was pathologized for being left-handed and had to pass exams for being allowed to write with my left hand. And then being judged as a real or non-real left-handed guy based on the fact which hand I use when I wipe my ass. By right-handed people who had written or read theories about people like me, often prejudiced or dismeaning theories, and where the ass-wiping had become a central criterium to allow left-handed people use their appropriate hand. (This analogy does not work well as left-handed people really usually their left hand for this.)

Can you relate to this?

I think the state here requires 2 years before hormones are approved. They have long forms with complicated and very personal questions like if anyone has ever touched your genitals, etc. And while you're doing this 2 year period of living as the gender you're trying to transition into state law won't allow you to use the appropriate bathroom. You have to have had SRS to legally use the bathroom of the gender you're transitioning into.

Quote from: dustbunny on December 22, 2010, 07:24:50 PM
I think the state here requires 2 years before hormones are approved. They have long forms with complicated and very personal questions like if anyone has ever touched your genitals, etc. And while you're doing this 2 year period of living as the gender you're trying to transition into state law won't allow you to use the appropriate bathroom. You have to have had SRS to legally use the bathroom of the gender you're transitioning into.

That's awful! 2 years RLE without hormones for many people just doesn't work.

Which state are you talking about?

Quote from: Fencesitter on December 22, 2010, 07:41:05 PM
That's awful! 2 years RLE without hormones for many people just doesn't work.

Which state are you talking about?

This is just my experience with my TS friends here in MN as well as looking over court cases related to bathroom use after one of my MTF friends was removed from the women's bathroom.

Quote from: dustbunny on December 22, 2010, 09:42:16 PM
This is just my experience with my TS friends here in MN as well as looking over court cases related to bathroom use after one of my MTF friends was removed from the women's bathroom.

2 years for hormones in MN? I was on hormones a month after meeting with my therapist (due partly to have been taking hormones before), and I have yet to transition. And, I'm in MN. As far as I know, the state doesn't have anything to do with dictating when you can get hormones - it's purely between you and your doctor and your therapist. Not sure on the bathroom issue, though.

Quote from: ClaireAnnalyse on December 23, 2010, 12:24:36 AM
2 years for hormones in MN? I was on hormones a month after meeting with my therapist (due partly to have been taking hormones before), and I have yet to transition. And, I'm in MN. As far as I know, the state doesn't have anything to do with dictating when you can get hormones - it's purely between you and your doctor and your therapist. Not sure on the bathroom issue, though.

The bathroom issue came up when some of my friends were thrown out of the bathroom they were using as it was not the one assigned to their birth gender. MN law requires you show proof of your "plumbing" change before defending your right to use the bathroom. You can try to look up the lawsuits that have been files. I don't think I have enough posts yet to link it. I have a long PDF about it I found while doing a google search that is quite interesting. In some ways MN is very good for trans issues, in some ways it is very far behind.

As far as the 2 year minimum, this is what I have heard from my local trans friends. I am not on HRT. I'm not certain state law mandates the time either as much as it is that that's the typical amount to show "prudent care". Your case may be unique in that you were on hormones before.

Wow!  Reading all these horror stories with therapists is really making me nervous about going to my first appointment.  Now I feel like I'm going to have the jitters about saying the "right" thing to them.  :(

I still don't understand how these therapists take into consideration gender stereotypes and what you "should" be doing.  Most of these stereotypes are learned through life after birth right?  I don't see how wearing something or participating in certain gender-dominated activities should have any bearing on how you feel in your core of cores.

So what?  Am I indefinitely male because I like watching UFC fights or play metal guitar?  Those are mostly male dominated, but no way am I convinced they make me feel less like a woman.  I like doing a lot of female oriented activities as well!  What say you to that gatekeeper?

Well...in reality if I have to follow my therapist's rules and answer her questions to get what I need to transition properly, then so be it.

Quote from: Double_Rainbow on December 26, 2010, 05:14:46 AM
Wow!  Reading all these horror stories with therapists is really making me nervous about going to my first appointment.  Now I feel like I'm going to have the jitters about saying the "right" thing to them.  :(

Just try to relax and be yourself. Most likely everything will be just fine.
Looking back at some of the stuff I have written it might come off as being worse than it really is. Hard to avoid that, humans do tend to exaggerate a bit when ranting about stuff.

Quote from: Fencesitter on December 22, 2010, 06:54:27 PM
Well I don't know your case personally. I know that a bad passing due to unfair physical aspects may be very bothersome, so maybe it might have made some sense that he told you this. But I know a lot of trans women who get read as female without a problem - and even some ->-bleeped-<- guys. Moreover, saying "I know X trans people and I can read them all" does not mean anything, cause those he cannot read - he does not know that they are trans.

Perhaps he just wanted to see how I responded, but I don't know and I don't really care either.

Anyway, when I was out doing my christmas shopping, wearing a nice top and jeans, not quite sure if I passed or not, still using the mens room. The guys did the walk in turn around, walk back out to check the sign and then come back in again walking very slowly past me while turning the head to stare at me the entire time.
Was awkward, but did feel nice knowing that I can look good enough for that to happen.