Let me start off by telling you the bad news before the [somewhat] good news.
Today Alee [girlfriend] and I were heading outside durring our lunch period. I dont remember what he was saying but a hall monitor called us "ladies", and I corrected him "I'm not a lady". and he continued to tell me that I am NOT a guy, and I will never be one until I "grow one of those things [penis], and get bigger biceps". After repeatedly telling him that this conversation was uncalled for, he asks me "well what bathroom do you use ugh? youre not a guy."
It was awful. I ran to my guidance counselor and told her what happened, crying of course. I couldnt believe that someone who works in such a diverse school like the one I go to could be so rude and put his beliefs and thoughts before the RESPECT I deserve.
The school administrator/head of security spoke to him....he apologized to Alee, not to me.
I could of very well told him: hey you're black, I dont go around calling you "negro". why should anyone call me by names and pronouns that dont correspond with my gender when THE WHOLE SCHOOL knows who I am, and what I WANT/NEED to feel safe and comfortable in school. I dont even feel like going anymore. I hate school.
The one positive thing about today was the conversation I had with my track coach. Although his news wasnt something I really wanted to hear, he was very careful with what words he used and is trying really hard to understand my situation. I really apperciated that. He lets me do everything with the boys: run, go on water breaks, etc. But apparently there may be a problem when we go to meets. He saids it is possible that "they" [whoever runs these things in NY] dont allow transgender students to participate.... because i am not biologically male.
would this be good enough to present, should i be not allowed to run on the boys team? :
http://srlp.org/resources/publications/fact-sheet-transgender-gender-nonconforming-youth-school (http://srlp.org/resources/publications/fact-sheet-transgender-gender-nonconforming-youth-school)
Hey man, I'm sorry that happened to you :( stupid ignorant people. I think you should be able to run on the track team at meets. Maybe you could find a case of a transgender boy running at a track meet with the guys?
yeah I'm googling up a storm, and told my social worker from school about it so shes going to try and help. I really dont see the problem with it. I have no advantage...I'm the slowest guy on the team :P and its just running indoor track
I think that resource sheet is a good place to start if you go to school in New York city.
It sounds like you might want to share it with your coach, so he understands how to best approach the track meet situation.
The rules and regulations that cover interscholastic sports competition are usually overly complex and detailed, yet without always considering every situation (including transgender athletes). But your school has to follow the law, and so do other schools, so if you live in a place that gives broader legal protections for you as a transgender student, then there is no "they" who can stop you...unless they would like to face a lawsuit and have to pay you and your family a lot of money afterwards.
Sounds like you're on the right track (har-har) in figuring out your eligibility, your rights, and that you have a good coach willing to support you. That's great. Even if the hall monitor is a d-bag.
I think you should be able to run on the boys' team.
Also, I would've flat out punched that boy. I'm not encouraging violence, I'm just saying that I would have if I were in that situation.
Dont give up hope...lots of girls play on boys teams ... kickers for football teams etc....I believe it's less of a issue for ftm's...plus NY
New York Non-Discrimination Law
Gender identity protected? In some cases
While gender identity is not explicitly included in the state's anti-discrimination law, courts have ruled that transsexual individuals can pursue anti-discrimination claims under the category of sex.
So argue it's discrimination
@Rob, oh believe me i will!
Quote from: Rob on November 18, 2010, 09:19:10 PM
Dont give up hope...lots of girls play on boys teams ... kickers for football teams etc....I believe it's less of a issue for ftm's...plus NY
New York Non-Discrimination Law
Gender identity protected? In some cases
While gender identity is not explicitly included in the state's anti-discrimination law, courts have ruled that transsexual individuals can pursue anti-discrimination claims under the category of sex.
There are a variety of factors involved here. One is that gender identity is NOT protected in NY; the GENDA bill passed the NYS Assembly but not the Senate. :( So, that point is moot.
Title IX is a Federal law that provides equal athletic access to girls. It informs the decisions that AD's and districts make, as well as the bylaws of the NYSPHSAA (NYS Public H.S. Athl. Assoc.). I have quoted the relevant section from those below:
"(c) Where a school provides separate competition for male and female pupils in interschool athletic competition in a specific sport, the superintendent of schools, or in the case of a nonpublic school or school system which elects to be governed by this clause, the chief executive officer of the school or school system, may permit a female or females to participate on a team organized for males. However, where separate competition is provided, males may not participate on teams organized for females. NYSPHSAA NOTE: This clause is to meet the needs of the exceptionally talented girl."
Full text of the bylaws can be found at: http://www.nysphsaa.org/handbook/ (http://www.nysphsaa.org/handbook/)
The section on eligibility is at: http://www.nysphsaa.org/handbook/pdf/HSEligibility10.pdf (http://www.nysphsaa.org/handbook/pdf/HSEligibility10.pdf)
(scroll down to page 98 for the section above).
Essentially, a bio female can "play up" with boys in exceptional cases, but a bio male cannot "play down" on the equivalent girls' team. Aidan, you mention that you're slow, so I don't know if your superintendent would grant your request, as the note states it's to meet the needs of the exceptionally talented. In theory, it's for girls not challenged by playing against girls. :/
Now, if you were to switch to a sport in which there is no equivalent girls' team (e.g. football or wrestling), they would be required by law to let you try out, but only after you pass the requisite fitness test. In some districts, this is a very rigorous test, similar to or the same as the one applied to middle school students who want to play on H.S. teams. A panel decides if you're fit, then you get to try out, subject to the same criteria as any other boy. See below:
"In the sports of baseball, basketball, boxing, field hockey, football, ice hockey, lacrosse, rugby, soccer, softball, speedball, team handball, power volleyball..., and wrestling, the fitness of a given student to participate in mixed competition shall be determined by a review panel consisting of the school physician, a physical education teacher designated by the principal of the school, and if requested by the parents of the pupil, a physician selected by such parents. Such panel shall make its determination by majority vote of the members, and in accordance with standards and criteria issued by the department."
Hope this helps. Good luck.
Quote from: aidengabriel on November 18, 2010, 06:29:09 PM
It was awful. I ran to my guidance counselor and told her what happened, crying of course.
Naturally. Good job showing him what a man you are.
And here is where I get a bunch of people jumping down my throat because not all men have to adhere to a macho stereotype. Of course they don't. But if you look female and act female, why would you expect people to believe you're a man just because you said so?
ran to my guidance counselor and told her what happened, crying of course
Yeah, umm, that's not helping. Guys can cry - like when a dog dies, or they are moved by beauty, art or losing the championship game, but running to your school mommy in tears to tell on someone is not going to help the 'I'm just one of the guys' deal. Cause 'the guys' are going to be too busy laughing their asses off to even say Hi to you.
Even if the hall monitor is a d-bag.
All hall monitors are D-bags, they are just TSA agents waiting for their GED so they can sign on. No self-respecting person ever takes that job.
I'm the slowest guy on the team
I fail to see how that's an advantage when trying to get on a track team.
@Tekla and RD - I agree completely sadly
@Aiden - What you need to do is go back to that guy that disrespected you and make sure he never does it again. This can be accomplished just fine by firmly stating the facts and facing him down if you have too. If you truly believe in your masculinity other's will too but you have to convince others yourself. A man or even a boy would handle something like this himself. If he physically assaults you in anyway that might be a time to bring in an authority figure but not until then.
And to be sure, it's not the crying part (though that ain't helping) it's the snitch part. Pretty much anywhere past adolescence guys see running to the closest authority figure as a sign of weakness. How we going to ever be able to think that you would 'have our back' when you can't even take care of your own? And, a lot of times, that is a very valid question.
Quote from: RD on December 15, 2010, 11:45:48 AM
Naturally. Good job showing him what a man you are.
And here is where I get a bunch of people jumping down my throat because not all men have to adhere to a macho stereotype. Of course they don't. But if you look female and act female, why would you expect people to believe you're a man just because you said so?
At the risk of looking like I'm "jumping down [your] throat", I'm going to have to call bs. Maybe you didn't intend to come off this way, but the "Good job showing him what a man you are" came off as rather condescending. :-\
Going by his profile picture, he does NOT look female, and crying is not an inherently feminine action.
He was discriminated against by a school employee, at which point he should be talking to somebody else in a position of authority. If he were in college, then he probably should have confronted the employee on his own, but as a high school student there isn't much he can do to make sure it doesn't happen again.
@aidengabriel
You did what you could do. Plus, I know a lot of guys (cis and trans), myself included, who cry when they get really angry. Don't worry too much about it. The whole situation is absolutely infuriating, and I would've cried too. Don't let anyone get on you about crying, because it's really not that big of a deal. ::)
As far as getting another adult involved, I would say that was a good idea. If you're being discriminated against, you should bring in people who can help you. You should NOT suffer through dealing with things that you can't handle just for the sake of some other person's idea of masculinity. Be your own man! As long as you aren't running to other people all of the time, there is nothing wrong with asking for help when you need it.
Most importantly, I hope you get to run on the guys' team. Best of luck to you.
he does NOT look female
Lots of at one time bio-guys on here can tell you that not even all guys get to be 'one of the guys'. Not looking female is just the start, not the end point - this is about a lot more than fashion. That being said: crying is not an inherently feminine action, is inherently feminine when you do it because of something someone said, do it in public, and do it while running to whoever the 'designated mommy' is in that situation - particularly if you're trying to get in with the jocks. To most guys that age (and beyond) the group loyalty is paramount deal and one of those requirements is that you don't run to the authorities.
Reminds me of the "lone wolf" analogy. Just like a pack of dogs, your job as a boy is to go along with the pack. Go against them and they will turn on you. Get branded as a "rat" and you will get shut out of every male social circle, not just the jocks. "Bro's before ho's" applies to just about every male social interaction. I remember a quite heated conversation one time about whether you, as a male, would tell your male friend's wife that he was cheating on her. Almost universally males will say that they would tell him what he's doing is wrong, but out of respect for "guy code" they wouldn't dare say anything to his wife.
@RD, i look like any other little guy in my school.
@Tekla, do you expect me to resolve this on my own? student vs administration....doesnt work in my favor unless i have someone to support me and realize what this hall monitor said was ->-bleeped-<-ed up. and my guy friends dont care if im sensitive
Tekla, do you expect me to resolve this on my own?
Sure. And on that day you get to move from being a boi to being a man. Just that easy.
and my guy friends dont care if im sensitive
Damn right about that too, if you took offense and did nothing, so what? They only care about guys who are like them, not guys who are not like them.
honestly the crying thing wouldn`t come off as masculine to me eaither. Seen lots of girls crying through junior high through university - never a male. Not even when theyve found out their relatives are dead. Yeah it sucks when people say sh** to you, but as a transperson you need to get used to it, you`re not always going to be able to run crying to somebody - at some point you`re going to have to `man`up and handle things yourself. There`s no reason that you have to stick around and listen to someone who is telling you you will never be a dude - don`t like it? Ask him politely to shut up, walk away, don't recoomend it but I might punch the dude.
As for sports - what are you in it for? I wouldn't bother competeing if I knew that I was slow. That's how I am though - if you're looking for belonging in a male group - there are always rec leagues of sports, drop in sports, or other male activities.
Just so you know Aiden no one is trying to attack you or hurt your feelings here. People are just trying to help you.
Eventually you will have to stand on your own two feet and it is better that you practice doing that in a relatively safe environment like your school than on the street.
Disclaimer : I'm not blasting you - just some man-to-man honest opinions.
Crying and Dobbing are two habits you're going to want to break yourself out of, ASAP.
Nobody will respect you, and nobody will have your back (beyond staff obligations) otherwise.
I know, I know... perfect world blah blah no gender restrictions blah blah freedom of human expression blah blah everybody cries blah blah blah.
Sorry, kids - it's a nice dream, but it's not the way the world works at this point in time.
Sometimes we can get so wrapped up in one set of genders expectations being lifted off us, that we're prone to forget that we now have a new set of expectations to deal with.
That might suck, but that's just how it is. Your new social role comes in a shiny new box - the same box cispeople deal with. You don't get an exemption because you're trans. If you want to be outside the box (which is a very valid way to be), then you've got to stop giving a crap about what anyone else thinks.
Teenage idealism is all well and good, but you can't change the opinions of those around you if they don't respect you. And to get men to respect you - you've gotta play to the social rules and expectations already in place.
Also - when you're living as male, you're going to have your performance directly compared to other males. No exceptions, no special treatments.
If you're too slow compared to other boys to make the track team - that's life. It happens to plenty of smaller cisboys too. What makes your physical disadvantages worthy of special treatment, and theirs not? Their reasons may be different, but they can't help their physical shortcomings any more than you can. Your feelings are no more (or less) important than theirs. Short of letting everyone on the track team (at which point it becomes a social club, handing out ribbons with "Participant!" on them), someone is always going to be disappointed.
Welcome to equality. It doesn't always equal the playing field in your favour. Not getting special treatment is part of being accepted as a regular guy.
Sometimes we're so used to being the best at what we do, it can be a bit of a rude shock to suddenly find ourselves being held to different standards. It can be an unpleasant knock to the ego at first, but you suck it up and get over it - 'cause unless you want to be seen as a women, it's not something that's going to change.
If you're too slow compared to other boys to make the track team - that's life. It happens to plenty of smaller cisboys too. What makes your physical disadvantages worthy of special treatment, and theirs not? Their reasons may be different, but they can't help their physical shortcomings any more than you can. Your feelings are no more (or less) important than theirs. Short of letting everyone on the track team (at which point it becomes a social club, handing out ribbons with "Participant!" on them), someone is always going to be disappointed.
QFT. And if you make it in that way you will never be part of the track 'team'. You have to make the 'team' just like everyone else.
Wow, this is a such major thread derailing. This is a support board. Support doesn't mean cheerleading or telling people what they want to hear all the time. However, it doesn't mean taking pot shots at someone either. It also means reading the entire thread and looking at the dates before commenting and paying attention to what is being asked.
In mid-November, Aiden had an encounter with a hall monitor/security person while he was with his girlfriend. He also started running on the track team, where the coach treats him like one of the boys, but the question whether he'd be allowed to compete as a male was raised as an issue from the coach - not because he wasn't on the team or the coach didn't want to include him, but strictly as a "not clear bio female can run with bio males."
At the time, people commented on whether he would have the right to compete and also about the hall monitor thingee. Thread quiets down.
This week, someone new here tries to give more legal advice about the legal rights question - and does so in a way that doesn't seem to understand the actual facts here. (The question is not whether they have to let Aiden on the team - he already IS on the track team). But ok. trying to help out.
Someone else brand new uses this thread to make a first post on Susan's just to say, "Suck it up man, don't be such a crying whiny baby." This prompts a chorus of people telling Aiden to suck it up and not cry and not be a snitch and then continues to point out that he shouldn't get any special treatment to be on the team because he's slow or that he shouldn't even try to compete because he's so slow. WTF????
Aiden is already on the track team and he will improve as he trains. Not every team requires try-outs and cuts, particularly track, where you can train by running together and aren't limited by the sport rules (e.g., 5 players on basketball court for a team at one time in a game). Being on a team in high school is a great experience for building a fitness base, self-esteem, learning discipline, and making friends. He is on the team. The coach has let him on the team. No one is saying he should get special treatment for being slow or having a cis-female body. He wants to be treated the same as any other slow, small boy would be, and the fact that he's willing to endure being the slow guy with his teammates is a sign of strength, not something to kick down. I'm sure there are other non-jock boys who don't go for high school sports because they think people will make fun of them for being slow or look down on them, and those boys will never get better and miss out on what could be a good opportunity in building skills for life. In 10 years, no one is going to care if Aiden was the slowest on the track, but he'll have built experiences and memories that serve him well.
As for the hall monitor thing, people here are using a double standard because of the crying. In another thread, a poster who is an adult, posted about whether to report a zealous police officer who used his access to try and find out our poster's original name/status before transitioning. The advice was split between reporting an abusive bully (to keep it from happening to other people) and keeping quiet (to stay stealth). No one said, "Suck it up, abusive jerks bully people all the time. A real man doesn't complain." Aiden was facing a bully in authority, and when he tried to correct the guy, the bully didn't care. Aiden went to report him to an adult at the high school. He was not snitching on a buddy, he was not in a group of guys - he was alone with his gf, facing an authority figure in a high school.
Kids are bullied everyday in our high schools and authorities turn a blind idea to transphobia and homophobia or sometimes they themselves perpetuate it. Aiden not only has the right to report discrmination, he is doing others a favor when he does so. People naively ask when a bunch of teenagers commit suicide, "Why didn't they just tell adults about the bullying?' I think a bunch of people here know that this is a naive attitude, but what I never expected was to read a bunch of comments on a trans support forum telling a teenager who has been bullied due to transphobia that he should suck it up, man up, and not be a whiny baby.
Was it very mature of Aiden to run crying to a guidance counselor as opposed to staying calm? No. Was it very manly as we understsand that? No. So what? Yeah, at some point, he'll need to learn to keep his emotions in check when faced with bullies, but I think this is one area where everyone knows how much your actual hormone levels affect your ability to cry or not cry. The FTMs here on T know that it gets much harder to cry and the MTFs on HRT know that they start crying at times or in places they'd never expect. It's hard to fight the chemicals in your body, and it's harder when you're faced with the experiences that high school students are faced with everyday, where it's not just ONE bully or ONE idiot.
Well said Sean
I was considering posting something myself today ... and had been pondering what I was going to say.
As a parent of a kid who was bullied I would have been proud if my son had taken such coarse of action. It takes a lot to stand up to someone and then more to continue to fight for your right to be treated equally.
As for crying - get real .... how many threads to do we see about gender roles and how even when we fully transition we don't want to be sucked down into gender roles ... we want to just be ourselves. Boys cry & girls cry -- puberty is tough! Why do we insist on making boys/men conform to the standard of being tough and not crying and then complain that we can't find a caring and compasionate guy.
Your points are well made Sean, and I agree with them.
However, I do believe people had the best of intentions in the advice they gave Aiden.
Children are socialized into the expectations of their gender roles from the minute they interact as part of society. A child has had most of those years to learn the social expectations and integrate them into their self-expression (either accepting or rejecting them). A transgender child has not had the benefit of being socialized, and expereincing the social reaction (either positive or negative) to their acceptance or rejection of the social standards expected of their target gender.
Aiden's reaction, we all agree, was typical of his female socialization. I don't think anyone was trying to demean Aiden for the choices he made, myself included, only to educate him on the social expectations of males his age and the social reaction for not meeting those social expectations. Aiden is free to choose to accept or reject those social expectations. I would point to those standards were Aiden, or anyone in his situation, to complain that no one accepted him as his target gender.
EDIT:
This of course all in the context that people living in their birth assigned gender get somewhat of a free pass in to the boys or girls club and have some wider degree of lattitude in not meeting the social expectations of their gender.
Sean, just wanted to second your post.
I know I am new to all of you but I've lurked for a long time, and decided to make an account to reply to this thread just because I felt irked about the crying comment. What I meant was that it's hard enough for non-trans people to understand where you're coming from, but it makes it twice as hard for them if your voice, appearance, and behaviour don't seem masculine to them. Does that make it okay for someone to diss you? No, but it makes it understandable if they have no concept of what transgender really means.
In any case, someone said I sounded condescending, and that is true so I apologize. I also didn't expect my comment to derail the thread like it did.
Thanks for that, Sean.
Look, maybe telling a counselor what happened isn't the "macho" thing to do, but it is the smart thing to do when you're a teen when you can't resolve the situation yourself. And seriously, if someone publicly mocked me and said I'm not a guy unless I have a dick, I'd be pretty upset too. Especially when you're first affirming your identity, it hits a nerve. Female hormones don't give you the choice of whether or not to cry, sometimes it just happens.
Regan, do you think Aiden isn't aware of that male standard? I'm certain when I was six I knew the rule that boys don't cry. I repeat, I'm fairly sure he didn't choose to cry after being insulted. It's not indicative of his female socialisation, it's indicative of female hormones. Did he ask for suggestions on how to behave more male? No, his team seems to be accepting of him as he is. Was that why the hall monitor was being so stubborn? No, the hall monitor wouldn't have given a rat's ass if Aiden's response was manly and involved punching the guy in the gut, his only qualification for "male" is a dick.
This thread only came to my attention today, but the recent responses have actually succeeded in making me actively furious. Leave the guy alone. I see absolutely nothing wrong with how he looks or acted.
Just wanted to second Sean, Rob, and Nikolai. I'm glad somebody responded to all of that.
I sometimes have a hard time responding to things that I disagree with without coming off as aggressive. So, I'm glad we have guys on here who can speak more eloquently than I can ;)
>Mod hat on<
I'm just trying to read this thread without having to stop and modify posts every thirty seconds. Folks, please remember the rules about language and personal information. PM me if you aren't sure what I'm talking about.
Sean, thank you for stepping in.
For some of you other folks: you might want to dial it down a bit. There can be quite a gray area between helpful "guy" advice and unhelpful "oh, just suck it up" advice. There is, in fact, such a thing as helpful "suck it up" advice, but tone is very important. It is possible to be critical, constructive, reasonably kind, and openly supportive all at once. So watch how you say things, please.
>Mod hat off<
i'm on the team because ANYONE can join the track team for distance running. practicing and running after school has helped me get a little faster. when i said i wasnt an advantage to the team, i ment that i didnt see how a bio female running with bio guys would be considered cheating. (like a bio male, physically faster and stronger playing on a girls team would be an advantage ya kno?)
i pass. maybe not as my real age...but ya.
thanks Sean for your input
Quote from: aidengabriel on December 16, 2010, 07:22:28 PM
i'm on the team because ANYONE can join the track team for distance running. practicing and running after school has helped me get a little faster. when i said i wasnt an advantage to the team, i ment that i didnt see how a bio female running with bio guys would be considered cheating. (like a bio male, physically faster and stronger playing on a girls team would be an advantage ya kno?)
Ah. That makes sense with more context. That changes things dramatically. I can see where you (and others) are coming from.
Back when I was in school we had limited spots for all sports, including distance running. If you weren't in the top 5 on try out day, no meets and no training for you whatsoever. Totally different context.
If everyone else is welcome to the meets (no try out, no cuts, etc) - then that is totally lame ass stuff they're pulling, and I agree with the idea that the "powers that be" are being a bunch of... well... something I won't say but it's not very nice. They're excluding you, personally, based entirely on trans status and not performance related. I'd be fighting it. With what? No idea - but I'd be kicking up a stink.
I'd start by asking them the question "What would happen if I just showed up and ran anyway?".
By the way - don't take the comments regarding physical disadvantages as people saying "don't try". I think in most cases it's more intended as "You'll have to prepare to try twice as hard, and may not get intended results - but hey - give it your best shot anyway, and good luck".
Regarding administration and bullying - My tone was a bit harsh in places, but I still believe the "administration" in most schools are nothing but a bunch of politically correct do-nothing mouthpieces. They make the bully kids give some hollow apology and a meaningless assurance that it'll never happen again, and the next day it just starts back up (only when less people are looking).
The only ways out I've seen work (without just knocking out one of their teeth - which can be risky and against school policy) are to cut the bullies down with smart(er) assed comments, give them a bully time right back, or flip them off and don't care. Then just holding out to senior years where being your own person suddenly becomes cool.
I think there's a double standard in the threads because you can give the jerk kid crap right back without landing in the slammer. Telling "Officer Nosey" you think he touches himself at night might not go down so well.
yeah. i'd really appreciate it if yall would stop trying to "help" me and give me your advice. the ordeal is done. at meets i warm up with the guys, and before the distance race starts guys and gals usually team up with their running buddy and i pass alright. when/if my name needs to be on something like my # or track shirt, its usually A. Mora or just Mora (last name).
i dont need to be told how "unmanly" i handled the hall monitor situation.
i dont need to be told what macho male stereotype i dont fit into
i AM a young male, and guess what, i cried when i was upset. maybe after hormones i'll be more likely to control my emotions. I'm as male as any one of you with T, although i may not always look or "act" the part. i'll correct whoever gets my gender wrong and whoever trys to call me by my birth name.
Quote from: aidengabriel on December 16, 2010, 10:51:20 PM
maybe after hormones i'll be more likely to control my emotions.
If you're anything like me (and some others I know at Susan's and IRL), you will have a much easier time not crying once you're on T. In fact, now that I'm in therapy with an understanding head doc, I am more open to crying as a way to relieve stress--except it's so much harder to cry now! I really had to learn all over again how to do it, and still I often can't do it when I want to.
arch:
i hope T affects me like that! but getting T wont happen for a LONG time :O
right now i'm more focused on getting my parents to understand what being FTM means, and getting my name legally changed
Once your parents are on board, you might get what you need a little sooner than you expected. But if not, do the best you can with what you've got. And the name change can be a HUGE boost to your morale.