Apologies in advance if this post is short, I know you peeps like your long-winded speeches around here. :P
So anyway I've noticed that a number of people seem to believe "girlishness" is a prerequisite one must consider when determining if one is MtF trans.
Now I admit when I was a toddler I did indeed play with my sisters Barbies, and wanted to dress like her, and I even raided my little girly friend's mom's closet once and wore her lipstick. It's obvious right, I have a girl in me somewhere.
But not all girls are like this. Through the majority of my childhood I had Ninja Turtle figurines, loved hanging with the boys, playing violent video games, getting into scraps... aside from an overwhelming urge to cross dress, and aside from the fact I was too ashamed to be honest about my gender queerness I was otherwise indistinguishable from the average boy.
So it turns out a lot of genetic females are like this, they did the same things I did and not only are they totally rad like me but are feminine and have their delicate moments.
I don't think that just because I (for the most part) felt comfortable in a male role makes me any less of a woman.
I guess I'm just flabbergasted when I hear [see] someone speaking of gender equality or such things, but turns around and contorts his or her self to these constricting gender norms. If you're comfortable riding those rails your whole life, great, but not every MtF speaks in falsetto or closes her legs when she sits...
Dresses and heels and pretend tea parties are great and all but sometimes I just have to put on some sturdy jeans and kick some ass, ya know?
If I were born a biological female I'd be a hell of a kick-ass tomboy, no different than I am right now...
Well shoot, I guess it was long after all.
That's what she said amirite or am I right? Lol I'm a pervert.
i agree with you there. im on the other side here, ftm, and i consider myself a femmeboi =P
yeah, i definitely am a guy and like lots of typical 'guy' stuff, but then again i do collect unicorn stuff and have tons of plushies and have some femme interests =)
but that shouldnt make me any 'less' of a guy.
ill crossdress and play with my unicorns if i want! >D
that doesnt mean im not a guy anymore,
just like how liking 'guy' stuff doesnt make you any less of a lady.
youre a tomboy, and im a femmeboy ^ ^
Girls can not be tomboyish. Just imagine, women in auto racing ( Danica Patrick or Shirley Muldowney ), or golfing ( Nancy Lopez or Babe Didrikson Zaharias ) or mountain climbing ( Lynn Hill or Junko Tabei ) or flying ( Amelia Earhart or Lt Col.Martha McSally ), they would upset the natural order of things.
Never let anyone say what you can or can not be. You are your own woman, tomboyish or Ultra Femme.
I had Ninja Turtles too as did my very feminine, pink obsessed sister (she just made sure she got the purple one). It's kinda funny how tomboyishness is praised except when it comes to MtFs. You all are supposed to be more female than cis females.
hMMM MAYBE THATS WHAT I AM ;)
I am so tomboyish i have never grown up. :-X
I have a theory that tomboys, and Janegirls (erm, is their an equivalent ???), are actually part of the spectrum of trans people....
Anyway, yeah, I think it is a trap. You here it a lot "OMG I still like to play boy games I can't be a girl". In that sense the stereotyes cause a lot of heart ache. There is nothing to say you can't become a mtf trans girl who is a drag king for example.
I like how Eddie Izzard puts it - he is an action ->-bleeped-<- - "I run, leap, climb trees and put on makeup"
I am glad to see this topic as I am struggling with this right now trying to define who I am. Seems I have found a new place I can call home ;D
Re: Tomboyish MtFs?
Really, tomboyishness is by definition, a female gender expression. There's a range of female expression. Females raised a certain way also seem more likely to be tomboys. Girls raised only by fathers, girls with all brothers, etc. They're just more likely to be exposed to more 'masculine' activities. It only makes sense that girls raised as boys might turn out to be tomboys as well. I mean, think about it - what would you expect a cisgirl raised as a boy to be like?
I'm not sure if I'm going to make any points or not here :P. Mainly observations I guess.
This topic is interesting for me because I had a related experience during transition that threw me for an absolute loop.
So, the main masculine trait I had growing up was that I was athletic and good at sports, and I enjoyed playing them. This was the one avenue through which I managed to sort of fit in with the guys, at least in their eyes- I still felt like a complete interloper.
As my dysphoria became more and more unbearable, especially in the year or so leading up to my transitioning, I found that I simply couldn't play sports anymore- not because I didn't enjoy the act of playing them, but because being in that masculine role would set my dysphoria off like crazy. The last time I played sports I found myself huddled off in a corner by myself with tears streaking down my face, sobbing uncontrollably, and that was it for me and sports.
Now that I've transitioned, I have found myself going back through the masculine aspects of my past life that had been cut out due to dysphoria. Basically, I've been curious how many of those things were just a part of trying to fit into that male role, and how many were things that I actually would still enjoy now. I want to fix any over-compensation I might have done. It's been amazing how pretty much every little thing I've tried I haven't been able to comprehend how for the life of me I could have even stood doing them.
Sports, however, is one that I suspect I would enjoy if I tried again if I could manage to do so without having to deal with dysphoria. You enjoy doing things at which you excel, right? I've been hesitant however, because I have no intention of inviting dysphoria's crush back into my life unless I absolutely have to. It continues to be be a bit of a dilemma for me.
Quote from: Nero on November 21, 2010, 07:13:26 PM
It only makes sense that girls raised as boys might turn out to be tomboys as well. I mean, think about it - what would you expect a cisgirl raised as a boy to be like?
Oh, I agree 100% with this...
Quote from: Jen on November 21, 2010, 08:06:12 PM
Sports, however, is one that I suspect I would enjoy if I tried again if I could manage to do so without having to deal with dysphoria. You enjoy doing things at which you excel, right? I've been hesitant however, because I have no intention of inviting dysphoria's crush back into my life unless I absolutely have to. It continues to be be a bit of a dilemma for me.
Understandable. But remember that sports are only masculine in the sense that girls were prohibited to join in for so long. It's not masculine to want to play a game or move your body.
I think a lot of our guilt or feelings about certain activities is because our gender seems to be on trial - we were on 'trial' to behave as our birth sex, and now for lack of evidence we feel we're on trial for our gender. But if it were a given that you were simply a girl raised a boy due to circumstance, it would not seem odd at all that you enjoyed sports. The same way nobody blinks an eye at a cisgirl into sports. It's only the idea that a trans girl should magically be more female than other females that causes this.
Quote from: Nero on November 21, 2010, 07:13:26 PM
Re: Tomboyish MtFs?
Really, tomboyishness is by definition, a female gender expression. There's a range of female expression. Females raised a certain way also seem more likely to be tomboys. Girls raised only by fathers, girls with all brothers, etc. They're just more likely to be exposed to more 'masculine' activities. It only makes sense that girls raised as boys might turn out to be tomboys as well. I mean, think about it - what would you expect a cisgirl raised as a boy to be like?
I was raised by my mother and mostly as an only child even though I had older siblings.
This would put a hole in your theory if it were not for the fact my mom is very tomboyish. Retired military, excels at carpentry, never acted very feminine.
In fact I believe it was my coming out that I think inspired her to act more like a girl. :angel:
I am still coming to terms with being MTF and having a male streak a mile wide yet still needing to transition.
But I am no where near a tomboy. I do not like sports, carpentry or other typicaly male pursuits. I like more feminine pursuits.
bye
But I liiiiiiike labels.
How else am I going to know what kind of pickle is in my pickle jar? :(
@ Crimbuki:
Girl, I think you're awesome ... just the way you are ... don't ever change!
@ Everybody:
You folks are the best! A more open-minded and accepting crew I have yet to meet! ;)
_________________
Now, THIS is the kind of woman I personally identify with and would like to look like and dress like. This is from about 1986 or so, but she still looks awesome. The kangaroo is kudos to our Aussie friends here on Susan's Place!
Cory's "trained up" here and is in near-contest condition ... prior to massing, cutting and ripping ... a 10-to-12-week cycyle. Off-season, she's about two-thirds as muscular ... the look I like ... want ... and can very much achieve ... close to it now ... would be VERY happy this way!:
Cory Everson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nNQxu644Yo#)
To thine own self be true. Know this offends many folks. Sorry ... gotta be me. :D
You should see her sister, Cameo! Cory and Cameo were rail-thin before they trained up.
bye
Quote from: Nero on November 21, 2010, 07:13:26 PM
Re: Tomboyish MtFs?
It only makes sense that girls raised as boys might turn out to be tomboys as well. I mean, think about it - what would you expect a cisgirl raised as a boy to be like?
Exactly! I've spent trying to do what was 'expected' of me and what needed done. In that process there were a few things I've learned to like. One of those things is cabinetry. You know what, it's not too different from sewing!
Quote from: Sada on November 21, 2010, 10:16:46 PM
You can label every facet of a person till they look like a egyptian mummy covered in yellow stickums, or just live your life. . . What really is a tomboy? I mean why should anything really change about your personalty as far as what you like and do not like. Emotionally the HRT really does effect you, for me it made me whole and just amplified who I already was louder and clearer. So yeap I still play vid games, climb trees, and I still spit my chewing gum at my little cousins head~^^ Just be who you are and forget the labels. ;)
I would really like to leave lables behind and be accepted for who I am. What happens is that others give us lables anyway :(
I always knew i was never going to be some hyper-feminine girl, and anybody who expects me to be like that because i'm transitioning has a lot to learn.
Labels to me are a way of exerting control and dominance over people, especially if used in a negative way. Be happy, live your life as you see fit, and stick your tongue out and wave a two fingered salute to the bits of the world that say different. :laugh:
Tomboyish? Me? Maybe. I know for sure I'm not 'hyper-feminine', and I don't see myself that way. If my brand of femininity is not as good as another, that's just too bad. Lately, I've become complacent with not being extremely feminine, and the more I see myself as just a woman, with every passing day, I will feel more comfortable in being a bit tomboyish. I am a bit tired of fitting into a box, since that's exactly what I did pre-transition, and it was no fun. I am told I act like my female siblings... ;D Fine by me, it is just something that comes naturally. I always found that I could understand/sympathize with my female friends who were a bit tomboyish, more-so than than the hyper-feminine ones. With HRT, I understand women, and can't understand men. Maybe bit of a hyperbole, but I'm sure you get the idea. :laugh:
I've been referred to as a "Tomboy" a few times... Oh, I've also been called a "Sporty girl" :laugh:
Yes! Sporty! I think that's quite positive, and in a sense, I'd rather be 'sporty' than 'tomboyish'. Then again, they are just labels, but they're hard to ignore when the society in which we live is based upon labels.
Quote from: Nicky on November 21, 2010, 06:40:57 PM
I have a theory that tomboys, and Janegirls (erm, is their an equivalent ???), are actually part of the spectrum of trans people....
Anyway, yeah, I think it is a trap. You here it a lot "OMG I still like to play boy games I can't be a girl". In that sense the stereotyes cause a lot of heart ache. There is nothing to say you can't become a mtf trans girl who is a drag king for example.
I like how Eddie Izzard puts it - he is an action ->-bleeped-<- - "I run, leap, climb trees and put on makeup"
I concur with you on this. :)
Quote from: Helena on November 22, 2010, 05:04:36 PM
I always knew i was never going to be some hyper-feminine girl, and anybody who expects me to be like that because i'm transitioning has a lot to learn.
Labels to me are a way of exerting control and dominance over people, especially if used in a negative way. Be happy, live your life as you see fit, and stick your tongue out and wave a two fingered salute to the bits of the world that say different. :laugh:
Exactly! Helena, across the generations, consider me totally on board with your way of thinking. ;)
Many of us trans women have many complexes around feminity. I do. And it does not make me any happier. I think if you have no problems with tomboyishness (this word is a yay at scrabble, assuming it exists), I believe you will gain from it !
Quote from: Helena on November 22, 2010, 05:04:36 PM
I always knew i was never going to be some hyper-feminine girl, and anybody who expects me to be like that because i'm transitioning has a lot to learn.
Labels to me are a way of exerting control and dominance over people, especially if used in a negative way. Be happy, live your life as you see fit, and stick your tongue out and wave a two fingered salute to the bits of the world that say different. :laugh:
Here in the States we generally give the single digit salute :laugh:
This is an interesting topic and one I've thought about quite a bit because of my personal situation.
I grew up with only my mother and my younger sister in the house and neither are girly girls in the least. My mom hates wearing makeup, messing with her hair and loathes anything but jeans and a t-shirt, she doesn't mind mowing the lawn or killing bugs; my sister is pretty much the same way and neither have a problem hanging out with guys and giving them crap. I've never really thought either of them to be tomboys though, but maybe my perspective is different being that's all I was exposed to growing up.
It also makes it even stranger that I've always been much more "girly" than either of them since I was a child. I like playing with my hair, doing makeup, and enjoy a nice skirt as much as I do jeans and a cami. I'm also terrified of bugs and hate to be dirty, not because "girls are supposed to be that way", it's always just how I've been. I've always thought it to be quite interesting that these have always been my traits even though I was never exposed to any of it growing up. Nature over nurture for sure in my case.
I would consider myself a bit of a tomboy though, I will always love cars and mechanical things, but I'm not sure how much of that was influenced by growing up as a guy or has always been present in me. I have clear memories of reading popular mechanics magazine at my grandmothers house as a small child and absolutely loving it.
I dunno, it's interesting where we all end up in this "spectrum".
~Sara (who currently has grease under her fingernails but nicely pedicured and painted toenails) ;)