Do you feel like sexism (against women) still affects you or does it not bother you anymore? I was just curious of your reactions now to it because you pass as male and other people see you as a male, so do you still get affected by it? Like I said it's an odd question so apologies if I don't make myself sound clear.
I don't pass and haven't really started to try yet and I still don't consider sexism because I don't think of myself as a girl so for some reason it's never really come to my mind as an issue that affected me personally.
I pass, and yeah sexism bothers me sometimes. I don't see it a lot anymore, I can't even remember the last time, but I get a little riled up. I'm not expecting men and women to be treated equal, because we're not equal, there are some things men can do that women can't and vice versa but no one should be treated poorly.
I still don't pass 100%, but anyway...
Yes, sexism does bother me. I don't get offended as a woman, because i'm not one. I get offended as a man who don't want to see our girls being treated as if they're worst than a man.
No matter if i'm wearing my binder or wearing a goddamn dress, if someone say something stupid about woman, we would have to talk. =|
Sometimes, when it happens, my boyfriend comes to me and tell "Hey, don't forget that he don't know about you...", but i already told him: i don't do this because i'm an FtM, i do this simply because i don't like to see it, i don't think it's correct.
I pass 100% of the time but no sexism doesn't bother me. I treat men and women as equally as I can. I have no ill feelings towards women, I hang out with my mom and little sister most of the time. What other people do isn't really my business. I can joke about women with the best of them haha but it's just that, joking. Sexism never really affected or bothered me in the first place though.
Pisses me off, regardless if I'm passing or not.
Respect is respect.
yeah I pass 100% of the time now and sexism pisses me off even more than it used to. I feel like I've left the hard life to come to the easy life (I know--stereotyping) so its my job to help the remaining women out there as much as I can. I actively fight sexism now as an insider whereas before I was hurt by it but just blew it off.
Quote from: insanitylives on November 23, 2010, 05:34:21 PM
Pisses me off, regardless if I'm passing or not.
Respect is respect.
+1. Even once I pass 100% it will still bother me.
Sadly.. I don't even notice sexism most of the time..
Unfortunately I don't pass and I'm often affected by sexism. I have a friend who completely passes and is still affected as well. All around, sexism BITES.
It is hard to notice after you pass well. I no longer get to lose jobs because I'm female. It did in the past. I had an employer say women can't lift anything or work on machinery because "it will strain your milk", that no longer happens. I would be angry and depressed over many of the comments I have heard in the past but as I pass, it no longer is an issue.
Quote from: insanitylives on November 23, 2010, 05:34:21 PM
Pisses me off, regardless if I'm passing or not.
Respect is respect.
I feel the same.
I'm even more aware of sexism than I used to be before transition. As now males talk to me openly as I'm "one of them", belittling women, even their girl-friends or wives - on the grounds of their sex or gender.
I think it's horrible, and it still shocks me.
If as a male, you think that women are worth less than guys, why stick to them and not make gay relationships instead, rather than crush down your woman? Even if you're not attracted to guys - there at least you'd find your "equal". It seems to make more sense to me and to be less painful if you force yourself as a guy to have sex with another man though you're not attracted to guys. Rather than to share all your life with a person you deem kind of subhuman and worthless. I don't get it. Really, I don't. But these kind of guys who belittle women tend to be the very ones who react phobically to gay relationships anyway... No, I don't understand that. Makes. No. Sense.
If one day I'll just regard sexism as being normal and okay, please shoot me dead then. Out of pity. Immediately. And aim well, I don't want to suffer.
6 years into this. I used to get enraged at sexism, and particularly gendered humour based on stereotypes. Now that I'm not a victim of those and to some extent I see women who actually like that stuff, what angers me is attitudes that indicate that women are lesser people, less skilled, less competent. I know that's bull. Gentle teasing of my gf about taking forever to get ready or finding things icky doesn't bug me. But anyone tries to tell me she's not as smart or not as good a driver or less deserving of full respect, that pisses me off.
I think what I'm trying to say is that when I was perceived as female, the stuff that rankled me was applying a female stereotype to me, and that probably had more to do with my gender identity issues than actual sexism. The things that I find sexist now are different. And I may be wrong about what is sexist, just saying that that is what has changed for me.
A few times, I've been keenly aware of the insider "buddy-buddy" thing that some guys give me in retail and service situations. These men are not quite like that with the women. I don't know if you would call that sexism.
A few times, I've been in similar spaces and have been noticed by a male clerk or sales representative who basically ignored a woman and targeted me. I always wonder if she has been there awhile browsing; I figure maybe someone has already asked her if she needs any help, but I wasn't there to see it. I feel very awkward when this happens.
A few times, women have been irritated or exasperated by something I've said or asked. I didn't perceive my statements and questions as particularly egregious or stupid, but they came from a clearly male perspective, so the women reacted in a particular way. I kind of felt like I was on the receiving end this time--of anti-male sexism.
A fellow in my men's group has trust issues with women, and he once said that he felt that women were manipulative and sneaky. Well, I can see that. In a sexist society, girls tend to adopt certain strategies, like indirect aggression, to compensate for their lack of overt power. So they do all of this clique stuff, talk about other people behind their backs, spread rumors, stuff like that. This is how they compensate. I don't particularly like that kind of behavior; I prefer the direct approach.
Indirect aggression has been well documented in women and girls, so I don't think a guy is sexist if he merely points out that a lot of women behave that way.
I have my own issues with women, but it bugs me when guys say truly unfounded things about them.
I get livid.
I loudly called out a fellow student in class for being misogynistic.
Sure I don't mind COMPLETELY small jokes that have no seriousness behind them, but actual, serious jokes about ethnicity, disability, orientation, identity, etc... I cannot stand and will NEVER stand.
sexism does not equal misogyny
How does it not?
Belittling women because you have a hatred and mistrust of them as a whole and only hating a woman because she is a women, isn't sexist?
Then what IS sexist if not the fact that this is solely based on their biological (or apparent/identity) sex/gender?
Is it not racist to exclude all African-Americans from a store exclusively because the hater hates all those who are African-American just because that's their ethnic group.
I fail to see your logic.
I don't pass; but I am really riled up about sexism (toward both men and women) and am an equal rights activist.
Sexism towards anyone sucks but I don't notice it that often. Truth is, I never have. I know a lot of independent strong women who haven't really had it happen because men respect them.
Though this morning I went to the gas station and had to wait 10 mins to be helped because the cashier & 2 women were busy talking about how all men were lazy pigs because their boyfriends had done them wrong. Which I think was sexist. The cashier apologized to me when they left & made a point of mentioning not all men were pigs (passed and I wasn't even binding *happy dance*)
I don't pass at all right now, and to be quite honest I am rather sexist myself. I will turn to rude stereotypes and jokes to distance myself from womanhood. And I sometimes mis-articulate my hate for being treated as a woman, as if it is hate for women. Since I think it's pretty awful of me, I just try not to discuss anything about sex or gender with people I'm not out to.
The only time in my life when I could get past my discomfort with women was when I was able to be out to everyone around me, and people stopped expecting me to act like a woman. I started to love, appreciate, and reach out to women, once I didn't feel that I was getting locked into a female role. Nowadays when I get called a woman, it feels like an insult, and that itself encourages thinking that women are less worthy or respectable than men are.
Sorry if this post is rude, it is just the sad truth about me. :(
I tend to think about sexism far more in terms of differential treatment of people (as opposed to specific comments - because rude comments people make are rude, regardless of sex).
While I don't like witnessing sexism in general (and will speak up in certain situations), I've always been most interested in figuring out when *I'm* being sexist and trying to work around that. There is a thing called subconcious or hidden bias, where we don't even realize we are acting in a gendered way (e.g., calling women by first names and men by last names in work environments).
To give one example of a bias of mine, I've coached both boys and girls, and I have coached young women. In that role, I am hyper-aware of not being sexist (and that others aren't either). Yet as an athlete, I have an inherent sexist sense that I can't seem to shake. If I see a new guy and a new girl, I know that I feel deep down as though the girl will not be very good until proven otherwise, whereas I give the guy a complete blank slate. While this might be statistically true based on the sports I play, I wish I could give everyone a pure blank slate starting out. Does it really matter? Not really, because I fairly quickly learn to judge people based on how they perform, not their gender or sex. I am not playing professional sports or competing at an elite level now or anything like that, so my general "coaching" nature takes over anyway: everyone should get opportunities, etc. Still, I KNOW that I can't turn on my competitive switch against women the same way I can for competing against men, and I know what I assume to begin with.
So rather than getting upset at the abstract of sexism, I focus on the real ways it affects me and those around me on a regular basis.
Quote from: LordKAT on November 24, 2010, 06:12:35 AM
sexism does not equal misogyny
Good point, but it depends on which definition of sexism (and maybe misogyny, too, I guess) you are using. I guess the classic definition of the former is a belief that men are better than women. This belief does not necessarily translate into words or actions (or feelings of hatred or dislike).
"Misogyny" is a problem term, too. It can refer to hatred OR other "negative" feelings. A couple of people in the trans community have accused me of being misogynistic or at least bordering on misogyny; they clearly meant to imply that I hate women. But I don't; I only fear and distrust most of them. (When I get to know a gal fairly well, the fear and distrust dissolve away.) So I much prefer to use the term "gynophobia" to refer to my feelings. It is more specific, more accurate, and less freighted with negative cultural baggage. But when I use the term, a lot of people say, "Huh?" So I don't tend to use it.
Quote from: Arch on November 24, 2010, 10:59:09 AM
"Misogyny" is a problem term, too. It can refer to hatred OR other "negative" feelings. A couple of people in the trans community have accused me of being misogynistic or at least bordering on misogyny; they clearly meant to imply that I hate women. But I don't; I only fear and distrust most of them. (When I get to know a gal fairly well, the fear and distrust dissolve away.) So I much prefer to use the term "gynophobia" to refer to my feelings. It is more specific, more accurate, and less freighted with negative cultural baggage. But when I use the term, a lot of people say, "Huh?" So I don't tend to use it.
Gynophobic is a totally different thing. I have another friend who is like that due to abuse from mother and sister. Being afraid of something doesn't mean you're sexist, you're just scared.
Being sexist is showing a preference for one sex over the other. If I hate men, I am not misogynistic.(sp?) misogyny being a fear/hate/distrust of women makes favoring men not fit.
That is just one example to give you an idea why they are not the same, they do not mean the same thing at all.
I am purposely not reading any comments on this thread and only the OP.
I am essentially a sexist myself. I do not believe that the sexes can be equal due to just downright biology and I believe that the majority of women do not truly want equality. There are too many things that go "for" them, even things they take for granted, that they would not let go of.
As relates to the post I had maybe a couple years in my life where I felt offended by such things, but this was in my "tweens". At the time I had no real grasp of the true nature of things and thought that things could be equal. It was like this during the time after I started puberty, came out as a lesbian, and before I began to consistently pass as a boy (which was a great time before I figured myself out at the end of high school).
before really figuring out that i am transgender, i came out as lesbian. and even then sexist remarks didnt bother me. sexist jokes actually made me giggle a bit... if its all fun and games that is.
How does it not?
Well one (like any 'ism') is institutionally based, the other is personal development issue. Also, while misogyny is based in irrational fears and notions, sexism as a social system is based on rational thought.
Quote from: FebruaryFalls on November 23, 2010, 03:17:22 PM
I don't pass and haven't really started to try yet and I still don't consider sexism because I don't think of myself as a girl so for some reason it's never really come to my mind as an issue that affected me personally.
+1 except that I do pass.
Quote from: LordKAT on November 25, 2010, 05:12:45 AM
Being sexist is showing a preference for one sex over the other. If I hate men, I am not misogynistic.(sp?) misogyny being a fear/hate/distrust of women makes favoring men not fit.
That is just one example to give you an idea why they are not the same, they do not mean the same thing at all.
I don't really follow your line of thought. Sexist is thinking the other sex is inferior. Not a preference... that's sexual orientation.
Actually. I don't even know what you're saying in your entire post. Since you said "hate men = not misogynistic". Maybe I should just give up here since we're apparently speaking different types of English.
I think you're confusing words.
Gynophobia = irrational fear of women
Misogyny = hate/looking down at women and is a chosen mindset
Quote from: BloodLeopard on November 24, 2010, 03:21:07 PM
Gynophobic is a totally different thing. I have another friend who is like that due to abuse from mother and sister. Being afraid of something doesn't mean you're sexist, you're just scared.
I think I just said this...didn't I?
I may have the wrong end of the stick but I think I understand what LordKAT means.
You can believe women are better than men, and still be a misogynist...also sexism can go both ways, it's not always towards women.
Hmm... can't say I've been affected by sexism since transition. As expected, given I'm a guy and all :laugh:
The only thing close to sexism I see are silly jokes about stereotypes - and the girls back give as good as they get. It's all in good fun.
What I do see, and what does irritate me, is double standards.
What peeves me is this idea that you can't joke about women (it's sexist), but joking about men is fine. Either they're both open, or neither.
Another thing that bothers me is this idea that women should be pandered to with "chivalry", AND seen as equals. Excuse me for being a non-PC blue collar thug, but that does not compute. It's either one or the other.
I can't stand the politically correct "lowering of the bar" to get women into male dominated industries. There are one or two females in my company that are only there because they are female. I have absolutely no respect for them, and honestly - I'd like to see them fired. They can't do the job, and it's a safety risk bad enough to potentially kill people. I've seen men fired for less than they've done.
That said, there are a few women around who do the job very well - and I respect them as such.
I'm often called sexist and misogynistic for my viewpoints. If that's the case, then so be it.
Jeatyn has it quite right.
Quote from: BloodLeopard on November 27, 2010, 12:41:20 AM
I don't really follow your line of thought. Sexist is thinking the other sex is inferior. Not a preference... that's sexual orientation.
Preference is simply preferring one over the other, not necessarily regarding sex. I did not say sexual preference.
Actually. I don't even know what you're saying in your entire post. Since you said "hate men = not misogynistic". Maybe I should just give up here since we're apparently speaking different types of English.
Same english, misunderstanding yes. I mean that misogynistic does not mean hating men. simple.
I think you're confusing words.
Gynophobia = irrational fear of women
Misogyny = hate/looking down at women and is a chosen mindset
I am not confusing words at all. You are repeating what I said as being correct but in different words.
My point was that sexism can go both ways, misogynistic cannot. They therefore cannot mean the same thing which is how your post seemed to show your thoughts.
I am sorry if that is not what you meant.