Often on long holiday weekends I find myself just randomly surfing the web. When I was coming across images for the other thread I started I was also coming across some very interesting people. Most of these people lived well before psychologists and modern diagnosis of "gender disorders". I find it inspiring but it should also be validating to a lot of people who feel lost or hopeless or abnormal. There have been "people like us" throughout history. It's not a "disorder" that has developed in modern times. It's not a fad, it's a fact. It a normal variation on the human condition.
Peter Gluck
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F8%2F86%2FGluck_-_Medallion.jpg&hash=b9e79151eefaa5f6b0fc9b8cdf387b9b2cf0715b)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluck_%28painter%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluck_%28painter%29)
Antonio de Erauso
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fb9%2FCatalina_de_Erauso.png%2F220px-Catalina_de_Erauso.png&hash=1459004c5a3ef214e23f42b7ff4a42f775e5f19e)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_de_Erauso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_de_Erauso)
Nadezhda Durova
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F3b%2FNadezhda_Durova.jpg%2F180px-Nadezhda_Durova.jpg&hash=e8da57f0cc52edf78aedde8972e224261f4d6683)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadezhda_Durova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadezhda_Durova)
Willa Cather
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F7c%2FVan_Vechten_-_Willa_Cather.jpg%2F200px-Van_Vechten_-_Willa_Cather.jpg&hash=98f0fda76ec4d2ed53fae67db4d9566dceba7b4d)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willa_Cather (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willa_Cather)
Jack Bee Garland
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F27.media.tumblr.com%2Fgg1xDnQsBqzfngmxOiVm7PEko1_400.jpg&hash=4fbd01c8d343ba4636c56853c59bdbd8b3483b45)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Bee_Garland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Bee_Garland)
Billy Tipton
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2Fe%2Fe2%2FTipton_portrait.jpg%2F220px-Tipton_portrait.jpg&hash=4aca97a3c6dbfa18795c3f788b419ff4993bbd89)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Tipton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Tipton)
Here are some other interesting links:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu8.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu8.htm)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_people)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Female_wartime_crossdressers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Female_wartime_crossdressers)
I think the thing I've found most fascinating when looking into this is that it appears that none of these people were chastised or treated very badly - even when others found out their bodies were a different gender than they presented. It just kind of seems that until the psychologists came on the scene, there was general tolerance. I'm sure there were cases that would prove this wrong but something definitely happens when a "disorder" label gets put on things. It seems, even though we're in the year 2010 that so many people seem so closed-minded and archaic in their thinking when it comes to gender. But historically, it seems people were a lot more apt to just accept someone's personal choice and more likely call them "eccentric" or something rather than mentally disabled.
Interesting topic. I wonder, if these people were alive today and just accepted as natural variations in the female sex rather than abominations, wrong, not properly feminine, "sex inverts", etc., would they feel the need to physically transition?
Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 25, 2010, 03:37:16 PM
Interesting topic. I wonder, if these people were alive today and just accepted as natural variations in the female sex rather than abominations, wrong, not properly feminine, "sex inverts", etc., would they feel the need to physically transition?
::)
If you think there's an obvious answer to the question I made, then I think you need to reconsider the question and the facts better.
EDIT: I wonder if I seem patronizing again? But I'm speaking about the need to transition. These people all lived in natural female bodies and didn't seem to mind it much.
That's kinda cool man I never really thought to look into that type of research. I'll have to look these people up when I get a minute. Thanks for posting them :)
Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 25, 2010, 04:00:29 PM
If you think there's an obvious answer to the question I made, then I think you need to reconsider the question and the facts better.
EDIT: I wonder if I seem patronizing again? But I'm speaking about the need to transition. These people all lived in natural female bodies and didn't seem to mind it much.
It wasn't until the 1930's (I think - could have that factoid wrong) that a "sex reassignment" surgery was done. Most of these people lived well before anything like that and who is to say they did not deal with issues with their body. Obviously it can probably be assumed that most of them practiced binding their breasts or even "packing" to fit their male roles. So I wouldn't assume that they were just fine living in their female bodies. Most purposely "disguised" their female bodies to be males in their society.
I see what you're getting at - but your viewpoint and statement still falls to "accepting the female body" - that these people were simply variations in the female sex. They're variations for sure, but why just the female sex? And most of the people listed DID transition - that is, they lead large portions of their lives AS male and were accepted as such. There's many variations on transition too - and they don't have to involved HRT or surgery at all.
Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 25, 2010, 04:00:29 PM
EDIT: I wonder if I seem patronizing again? But I'm speaking about the need to transition. These people all lived in natural female bodies and didn't seem to mind it much.
Yes, you do seem patronizing. When you initially came here I accepted that you presented the idea that not everyone should transition; and I feel that is true. But after a while it became clear to me that you really are interested only in waving a red flag around here. OF COURSE those people lived in "natural female bodies" because they had no other choice. How do you know how much they minded it? If they had no other options, they had to cope.
I slogged through my life as best as I could, because I didn't know transition was really a possibility for me. Since I thought I had no other option, I lived in a 'natural female body' whether I liked it or not. Did I mind it much? You might not think so if you observed me, but that's because I became adept at repressing my feelings so I wouldn't just lie down and die. Constant arguments that the "trans brain does not exist" become tiresome and frankly intolerant.
Quote from: M.Grimm on November 25, 2010, 04:56:24 PM
Constant arguments that the "trans brain does not exist" become tiresome and frankly intolerant.
I totally agree.
I third that one. *nod*
Being slapped with the 'disorder' label really makes me angry. People I tell look up my 'condition' and find that, then assume that they can fix me with some pills and visits to a psych. And there are always going to be people who don't believe me when I tell them it's not true, because they believe what the internet tells them >:(
I read an article on cracked.com that contained information on a lot of these people, and it's amazing to think that they did so well in that society, so long ago, when we now are struggling to be accepted.
Thanks for the cool topic :)
Quote from: MaxAloysius on November 26, 2010, 02:00:50 AM
Being slapped with the 'disorder' label really makes me angry. People I tell look up my 'condition' and find that, then assume that they can fix me with some pills and visits to a psych. And there are always going to be people who don't believe me when I tell them it's not true, because they believe what the internet tells them >:(
I read an article on cracked.com that contained information on a lot of these people, and it's amazing to think that they did so well in that society, so long ago, when we now are struggling to be accepted.
Thanks for the cool topic :)
Yeah I really do think there are legitimate mental disorders - like schizophrenia ... but I really don't think being trans is a disorder.
Thanks for those links, very interesting reading. Especially the story of Durov/Durova, the fact that the tsar allowed hir to remain in the army as a man is surprising. I need to brush up on my Russian so I can read one of the more exhaustive biographies linked to on the wiki article and find out more.
Those kind of stories were what inspired me as a child. I don't think any of those people in particular, but Joan of Arc, for example. I lacked knowledge of trans people in the present, so I looked to the stories of women who managed to disguise themselves as men. It was always a reassurance.
Quote from: MaxAloysius on November 26, 2010, 02:00:50 AM
Being slapped with the 'disorder' label really makes me angry.
But unfortunately that is one of the few ways people can get treatment.
Cool articles. We just need to realize as a society that gender, sexuality, and may other "set" aspects of life aren't.
Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 25, 2010, 03:37:16 PM
Interesting topic. I wonder, if these people were alive today and just accepted as natural variations in the female sex rather than abominations, wrong, not properly feminine, "sex inverts", etc., would they feel the need to physically transition?
So... still not really getting the transsexual thing fully, eh? :laugh:
Ah... you cis people and your whacky 'transition is necessary because of a restrictive society' type ideas. It really makes me chuckle sometimes.
Why do I think they're transsexual? They lived as men. They didn't live as andro, or unconventional women. Given how difficult it is to live as a different gender for extended periods of time, and how damn successful they were, I'd hazard a guess they were actually men. They just didn't have the access to the medical advances we have now.
Quote from: Teknoir on November 30, 2010, 02:08:53 AM
So... still not really getting the transsexual thing fully, eh? :laugh:
Ah... you cis people and your whacky 'transition is necessary because of a restrictive society' type ideas. It really makes me chuckle sometimes.
Why do I think they're transsexual? They lived as men. They didn't live as andro, or unconventional women. Given how difficult it is to live as a different gender for extended periods of time, and how damn successful they were, I'd hazard a guess they were actually men. They just didn't have the access to the medical advances we have now.
For some reason, that first half made me laugh. XD
Anyway, I agree with everything you said.
I sort of take exception to Willa Cather being on the list. If she was anything on the rainbow spectrum, she was butch - the only evidence of any gender identity variance is that she may have momentarily have adopted a male name.
Regarding not seeming to mind their bodies much: you don't know that. In some cases, it's fairly obvious that they did - Billy Tipton is a great example. He hid his female body even from his wife.
Quote from: kyril on November 30, 2010, 04:14:58 PM
Regarding not seeming to mind their bodies much: you don't know that. In some cases, it's fairly obvious that they did - Billy Tipton is a great example. He hid his female body even from his wife.
I agree. I mean, it's not like they could complain about their bodies on an online support forum or to ANYBODY because they were HIDING that they were biologically female. And none of us were right there next to them, watching their every move.
Billy Tipton...he died of some illness or disease because he refused to go to the doctor, I believe. He died rather than let people find out he was biologically female. Really emphasizes keeping a secret to your grave, eh? In all seriousness, that's pretty serious.
At first, when I heard about him a while ago, I just thought, you know, how in the hell do you keep that from your wife? Wouldn't she see? Then I found out how he managed it and I was all, "Oh. Alright."
Devyn, for those of us who don't know, how did he manage it?
Quote from: kyril on November 30, 2010, 04:14:58 PM
I sort of take exception to Willa Cather being on the list. If she was anything on the rainbow spectrum, she was butch - the only evidence of any gender identity variance is that she may have momentarily have adopted a male name.
I always kinda got the impression that Willa kinda did whatever pleased her. If that was being a man for awhile, so be it. That's kinda why I put her on the list anyway ;)
Quote from: Lee on November 30, 2010, 05:18:23 PM
Devyn, for those of us who don't know, how did he manage it?
Lee, from what I read he told everyone his parts were mangled in an accident but I only looked at one site. Is that right Devyn?
Quote from: Michael Alexander on November 30, 2010, 07:31:28 PM
Lee, from what I read he told everyone his parts were mangled in an accident but I only looked at one site. Is that right Devyn?
Yeah, that's right. And that went the same for his chest - he told people he broke his ribs in an accident so he had to bind his chest.
1. That's pretty cool that he managed to make that work.
2. I'm SO glad modern medicine is better!