I know that the new TSA policies have been discussed in a number of other threads, but I have a specific question for my FTM brothers here:
The official TSA policy is that we are entitled to a patdown from same gender agent.
If you have to get a TSA pat-down, would you *rather* it be from a male or a female TSA agent?
Note: I am NOT asking if you think the policy is legal, rational, or whether you plan to fly or not. Those are valid things to discuss - and that's why we have a bunch of other places on these forums and elsewhere covering this topic.
My situation is that I *do* have to fly in the next few months, several times. Right now, I'm walking around with F as my ID sex marker and a carry letter from a therapist. I can pass as either male or female, and in theory, I'd be able to 'demand' a patdown from either sex TSA agent, my choice (either by relying on my ID making me F or relying on the carry letter to say I'm M).
Ideally, no one would touch my junk (so to speak). I have flown several times in the past few months, before the recent change in policy and introduction of body scanners. I have deliberately dressed andro for security purposes, haven't been packing before security, and I haven't had any problems. I was universally "sir'ed" by TSA people. The only time I've had a pat down, it was when I was presenting as female (no choice - work thing), and a female agent gave a cursory wand/pat down in public view. As a frequent flier, I wind up in "special security" lines often, but that doesn't protect you from being sent through body scanners now.
My preference is weird. I'd rather people know I'm a guy, but given the invasive pat-downs people are talking about, I'd much rather have a female agent give me the pat-down. I don't trust male agents to touch my body in the manner they are talking about. I just hate that I have to tell people I'm female or play along with that to get a female pat-down or that they just out you in public by yelling, "We need a female screener" blah blah blah. Among strangers, though, I kinda feel like I'd rather have people mistake me for a girl than let a man pat me down. I also know that I'll be switching my appearance and ID in the next few months, that by spring to summer, I will only be flying as M, have no right or expectation to be treated as anything other than a man, and I still don't like having to have a male agent be the one to give the pat-down. I guess, my favourite to get a pat-down from would be a closeted MTF agent. Haha.
So I was wondering: what do you guys think? Do you have a preference of which person is giving you a pat-down?
More generally, do you find other circumstances where you deliberately go andro or even F around strangers, even though you *can* pass as male, simply out of personal comfort?
I think I'd rather get it from a woman. I'm not sure, though - I was pat-downed by a VERY rude male security guard when entering the Riksdag building (kind of like the Parliament, it was with school), and since I dress on the goth side I am usually seen as a thief/gangster/madman because of my long, black coat and big, black boots. Maybe that's why I'd rather be pat-downed by a woman.
The security guard did NOT like my little joke about hiding explosives rigged to explode razors and scissors onto you (I just made up something over-the-top nasty-sounding). That and my appearance must have been why he was so rude.
Well, if I were in your shoes and considering that in a couple months I'd be only seen as male, I'd go through TSA packing. If you opt out of the body scanner, no one should be able to "see" the packer. From what I've read, the TSA agents are to feel you up until they meet "resistance". So as long as you have balls I don't think anyone would even bat an eyelash at you. However, if you are not packing and go through as M and they don't feel anything, well that might cause some problems with them.
Since I'm running around with an F on my ID I'm stuck with the female TSA agents. I'm really not okay with anyone touching me, but I'm even more not okay with going through the body scanners.
Man I would so rather have a male pat me down. I'd rather have a male because I'd feel like no one was questioning me. Plus I'm just picturing the angry immature type of guy saying "hey that guy is getting a girl to pat him down, I want that". I'd show my letter first and say I'm trans so he knew ahead of time and hope it was done sooner than later. Though I'd rather just go through the scanner. His idea above is a good one though.
Thanks for the comments so far. Much to think about.
Here's the packing dilemma: if you go through the body scanner packing, it sounds like it will show up and get you singled out for a pat-down. It's unclear right now if binders show up ok or not. It sounds pretty clear that the packer will trigger the pat-down. It's not necessarily an either/or.
If you pack and get sent to body scanner, sounds like you are guaranteeing yourself a one-way ticket to the pat-down anyway - either scanning AND pat-down or being forced to opt out to avoid scanning altogether, as inside mentioned.
If you don't pack and go through the scanner, there is a chance you don't get pulled out for pat-down. But if you do get a pat-down, then you're missing the "resistance" for male pat-down.
For people against the scanner, you're getting a pat-down no matter what. For people who don't care about the scanner as much as the pat-down, it's a calculated risk.
I dunno how I feel. Maybe once I have my top surgery done, I may feel different anyway.
I don't plan on flying for awhile, not for any reason except that I don't have the need to fly. By the time I do fly I will have had top surgery. I will refuse the scanner and opt for a pat down from a guy. My papers will be changed to male and I have no desire or right to request anything out of the ordinary. I will be packing so it won't be a problem I wouldn't feel uncomfortable with a guy patting me down. He doesn't want to touch my balls and I don't want him to but you got to do what you got to do.
I think I would feel a little more comfortable having a pat down from a woman. I'd probably ask for a man though as I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself or make a big deal out of it all.
Honestly, I really don't care one way or another what the gender is of someone randomly groping me. As long as they do their job quickly and efficiently and I'm able to move on then it's all good.
as long as it was known I was trans - male for sure... otherwise that'd be awkward. Otherwise I really wouldn't care.. they are just doing their job.. so meh.
hmm good questions, I do not think I'll be going on any flight vacations for a few years tho.
I'll have to admit that as long as I have my chest, even if I do pass binding, if I where to come in a situation like that I'd dress andro or something and present female. Mainly to avoid attention. Once of the plain, who cares.
I think id rather have a male pat me down, but you can feel the bumps of where my binder ends. I wonder if that would be a problem.
I'm nervous about flying any time in the near future. I wear an stp and even if I do get the positioning perfect there is still a medicine spoon between my legs. Which is something that wouldn't be expected by any TSA agent during a pat down.
I suppose I could take it off just for the scan, put it in a bag and send it through. However watch them tag it in the bag and force me to explain it. From what I've heard these people are very poorly educated in trans issues and if they don't understand it could get complicated.
I really hope they repel this new policy soon or I am staying firmly on the ground. In answer to the question I would rather have a male because that is what I am.
Honestly...
I've got some minor* issues with letting another guy that i don't know do that. I'll have to get over it eventually, but for now...
*abuse, really. =\
I would definitely go with a pat down from a dude. I wouldn't want to be standing out in a line of women waiting to get the pat down from a female TSA agent. And anyways, if you show your therapist's letter explaining the situation, a male TSA agent, if he were uncomfortable with the situation, would probably just want to get it over with. Or, if all of your IDs say male, just wear a packer, get the pat down, and you should be golden.
I'm flying to the northeast next summer for a tour of colleges, and if I have to do one or the other, I'm definitely going with pat down. The body scanner images sometimes end up online, whereas when you get the pat down, as much as a TSA agent can poke fun at how you don't have man-parts, they can't show the whole world.
Does anyone know if minors have to do one or the other? Or can minors just do the metal detector thing?
I'd want a pat-down from a man. If a woman did it, it would be like everything she touched was being declared female space, since women are supposed to pat-down women. However, I would think he could feel there's something odd about my chest, even binding. And I won't be able to get the gender on my ID changed for a while, and I'm not sure I could safely bind during a long flight... so I might have to tough it out and go through the body scan as a girl. Unless with the letter from my therapist I could go through in a sports bra instead and still convince them to let a man pat me down?
Quote from: Nikolai_S on December 01, 2010, 06:24:07 PM
I'd want a pat-down from a man. If a woman did it, it would be like everything she touched was being declared female space, since women are supposed to pat-down women. However, I would think he could feel there's something odd about my chest, even binding. And I won't be able to get the gender on my ID changed for a while, and I'm not sure I could safely bind during a long flight... so I might have to tough it out and go through the body scan as a girl. Unless with the letter from my therapist I could go through in a sports bra instead and still convince them to let a man pat me down?
You can change between security and boarding an airplane.
Quote from: Robert F. on December 01, 2010, 05:37:53 PMDoes anyone know if minors have to do one or the other? Or can minors just do the metal detector thing?
There's probably an age cut off
That anyone posting online would be above.
I am a guy, I want a pat down from a guy. I wouldnt want a woman patting me down cause that would mean that everyone who saw me would think I was a woman.
Plus, I'm gay, so Id rather have a man do it anyway, hehe. preferably a hot one?
I'd prefer a woman. Preferably a hot one. >:-) I am boycotting flying, though. So it would have to be a life or death situation.
Oh, two things I forgot to mention:
- You can request the pat-down be done in private. So people don't have to be standing around in public staring at you as a man being pat-down by a woman.
- There have been reports that right now, TSA agents have been told to be more aggressive in the pat-down, in order to get more people to use the body scanners and not opt out.
If a stranger has to touch my body for a legitimate reason (e.g., a doctor, massage-therapist, tailor, etc.), I'm usually indifferent as between men and women. I really don't care. I realize based on reading everyone's responses that my big concern is that the "aggressive pat-down" has no controls to prevent it from being more akin to assault, and if *that* is a risk, I simply trust female agents more than male ones so long as my body will seem more female to them than male. It has nothing to do with whom I'd rather be touched by in a consensual way.
transequality.org has a good resource for transpeople who will flying. If you go to their main page and scroll down there is a link, and it's not too hard to find. It has a list of flyers' rights as they pertain to trans individuals, and a list of tips to go with it.
Personally I'd go through the body scanner, just my preference. I'm not a touchy-feely kind of person.
I've never flown and I doubt I will anytime soon. I rather do the scanner. I think they are kinda cool actually. I just wish you could see your photo. I don't care who pats me down.
I'd rather get the pat-down from a guy to be honest, but I would probably have to pack my packy in the carry-on bag. But my GF and I have long-ago decided not to fly unless absolutely necessary. We both, without fail, get "randomly selected" for manual pat-down every time we fly. Every. Single. Time. ::)
If there is any doubt as to your physical sex, TSA policy is to have a female pat you down. As an organization, TSA literally does not care to increase accessibility or show respect for any trans person or any person with a medical condition for that matter.
Speaking as someone who has flown with VERY large dildos, packies, bottles of lube (pre-3oz policy) etc in carry-ons, it hasn't been an issue. Once an agent put on gloves (policy) and felt inside the bag to determine what the gel-appearing thing attached to an electrical mechanism was. It was an enormous 18+ inch double-ended vibrating dildo. He didn't pull it out of the bag but we were all trying to keep a straight face. ;D That is probably the most "I look like an explosive" thing I've ever had packed.
I guess it would depend on what the women look like and their attitudes.
Quote from: Sean on December 01, 2010, 11:58:00 AM
If you have to get a TSA pat-down, would you *rather* it be from a male or a female TSA agent?
Note: I am NOT asking if you think the policy is legal, rational, or whether you plan to fly or not. Those are valid things to discuss - and that's why we have a bunch of other places on these forums and elsewhere covering this topic.
Nobody. Get seriously ill and go home. Then go to Mexico by road, take a flight/ship to another country, and never return until the mass hysteria and paranoid rules are gone.
female, though that wouldn't happen as I have an M on my license.
Quote from: Osiris on December 01, 2010, 02:10:04 PM
Honestly, I really don't care one way or another what the gender is of someone randomly groping me. As long as they do their job quickly and efficiently and I'm able to move on then it's all good.
This. Although if it were to be out in the open I would prefer it be done by a female so that I would be perceived as female. By the way, why is it that pat-downs must be done by a person of the same gender? I'm supposing that the idea is that it would be less uncomfortable because there is no chance of being sexually attracted to that person. This reeks of heterosexism to me.
I just traveled this week. Did not encounter body scanners or pat downs.
This morning in my rush to fill 10 bins with shoes and coats and laptops and whatnot I forgot my T gel in a pump in my bag. The guy picked it up on xray, then loudly asked whose bag is this?! I said mine, and he pulled the gel out, said it was illegal, and he'd have to toss it. I said it was a prescription, and he said it didn't have a label. I tried to show him the label was in the bag (the box of gel pumps comes with 2 bottles; label was on the box but I peeled it off and stuck it in the bag, and it was under the bottle). He told me I was not allowed to touch the bag. Then he said oh when he saw the label but still had to pass it off to someone else to to some testing on it.
I hate the pump anyway but this just cements it that I'm going back to packets. I did get my gel back though.
Jay
Quote from: PixieBoy on December 01, 2010, 12:22:21 PMThe security guard did NOT like my little joke about hiding explosives rigged to explode razors and scissors onto you (I just made up something over-the-top nasty-sounding).
Aw man, you do
not say that stuff around those people. They don't take it in much humor. :police:
FYI from what I've heard some airports are starting to make everyone do the scanner
and a pat down. I'm boycotting flying until this legal molestation because of paranoia ends. If you're wearing a packer it
will show up on the scanner and you will be pulled aside. If your IDs all say male and you go through the scanner and they notice no guy parts (which show up too) you will be pulled aside. Your best bet is a pat down only if possible. I never even thought about the issues with binders.
Either gender screener would trigger flashbacks of being raped. There's no getting around that for me - my triggers don't differentiate by gender. If I had absolutely no choice but to fly - if I had law enforcements dragging me through the terminal to force me to get on the plane - I would prefer a male screener. I'm really just not comfortable with women touching me in those areas. Not just in public, but at all. When I've had to go to an OB/GYN, I've always insisted on a male, which clinics/receptionists always found kind of odd, but "gender of your choice" means what it says.
Jenna Jameson, in the Catholic Schoolgirls in Disgrace outfit please. And if she's not doing it, then neither am I.
As for age limit? 12 and under qualifies for a 'modified pat-down' - just like old Father Tim used to give you when he was giving out his 'special' blessings - according to the TSA manual (which reads at about a fifth grade reading level).
See:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/airport-patdowns-grooming-children-sex-predators-abuse-expert/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/airport-patdowns-grooming-children-sex-predators-abuse-expert/)
An expert in the fight against child sexual abuse is raising the alarm about a technique the TSA is reportedly using to get children to co-operate with airport pat-downs: calling it a "game".
As for what 'real' people think: (Warning: stay away from such content if you are easily offended, could be triggered by stories about abuse, or have no sense of humor as FARK is pretty much the Wild, Wild West of the internet.
http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5796538&startid=65223815 (http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5796538&startid=65223815)
Quote from: tekla on December 03, 2010, 11:33:45 AM...according to the TSA manual (which reads at about a fifth grade reading level).
That's because if your IQ is higher than that they won't hire you.
I wouldn't care about gender as long as they do their job professionally. I guess that it would be nice to have a trans person do it, so they would understand why I pack/bind. Other than that, my only real request would be that they are attractive, because, well, if you're going to be felt up anyways....
as they do their job professionally
This ladies, is also why guys go to hookers.
Tekla, you made me realize that my entire statement could apply to hookers. XD
Quote from: kyril on December 02, 2010, 08:28:56 PM
Either gender screener would trigger flashbacks of being raped. There's no getting around that for me - my triggers don't differentiate by gender.
Sorry to quote you man but that's what seriously worries me. Heck my ex used to trigger flashbacks on accident by touching me wrong or something occasionally and I was comfortable with her so let alone a complete stranger doing that... thankfully I don't have to fly soon I hope.
Quote from: Radar on December 03, 2010, 11:44:41 AM
That's because if your IQ is higher than that they won't hire you.
Which is sad because if they actually hired and paid intelligent people they could be better trained in behavior analysis to better spot those who might be up to no good rather than insult the elderly, infirm, prosthetics wearers, and in general treat the rest of us like common criminals.
Jay
actually hired and paid intelligent people
That's pretty much the last thing they want, if they had wanted it, they would have done it.