I saw a reference to the classic gender scale on another forum and it got me to thinking... (always dangerous)
Male/Masculine..................3rd Gender/Androgynous......................Female/Feminine
Ya know, this just doesn't do it for me. The engineer in me might be working overtime, but I'm thinking gender cannot be captured by a simple 1-D model. It has to be more of a plane, in the case of multi-gender, a 3-D or higher space like this: the x-axis is female, the y axis is male and the z axis is neutrois.
Cisgenders would lie solidly on any of the axes. Bigenders/multigenders sit at the origin. Everyone else is... everywhere else! This certainly does a much better job of explaining non binary folk like us than the classic linear model. So, here is what I believe to be a brand new concept for the very first time. What do you all think?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi739.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx37%2Fnymphblossom%2FGenderSphere.jpg&hash=3cdac322e8f54a6619f02f48d2dfbd15eb74c6b1)
It's a good concept, I think...but I'm learning-disabled in math, and so trying to mentally transpose that onto a grid physically really does makes my head hurt and I can't remember which quad is which when not focusing on it...
Would it be too much to ask of you to transpose the image onto a numbered grid? I know it sounds weird, but unless it's on a numbered grid I can't use it-and my graph paper's not here @ work with me...
I need to actually plot a few hypothetical people, see how it would describe their gender...and then of course so much of what we consider gender is a cultural-specific thing...
For instance, plowing's male, right? not if you're Native American...
So the grid's useful, but how to decide where people fall on it, unless it's you yourself doing your own personal rating? That's going to be hard as heck.
Hmm...noticing now though, that I can't declare myself more male without saying I'm less female...more female without saying I'm less male, or more of both without saying I'm either more or less neutrois? So it all adds to 100%, yeah, of course*duh*...hmmm...neutrois people might like to be less than 100%, I think I'm more than 100% sometimes...hmm...like a full gender plus?
And I don't really feel much relation to neutrois...though more power to them...
(I want my full female bits plus some male bits-not going to happen, but if I could get absolutely what I wanted...I also have beard envy going on-and that scares me...a woman with a beard?!?!?!)
Hmm, I'm afraid it's more complicated than a plot-point...maybe a waveform?
Umm...and in some cases, might involve an oscilloscope.
I love this! I've always thought that male and female aren't really opposites; there's a distinct anti-male and anti-female that don't necessarily overlap with female and male, respectively. I think that on this scale, I'd be way off to the negative female and a bit in the positive male. I'm not sure if neutrois is the best choice for a third axis because I don't really know what goes at each end (which is why I can't place where I am on it), but I agree that the space shouldn't be limited to two dimensions. I also think that bi/multi-gendered people wouldn't necessarily sit at the origin, as their identities could be all over the map at different times and that's not the same as being completely neutral on all scales.
I agree that the 1D Idea of gender doesn't fit personally I think that your 3d model doesn't really help as I'm yet to come across someone who see themself as male & female & neutros, I see it more like your graph without the z- Axis some people a a small dot that doesn't change other people move around witin a small area they have a small of what ever shape fits best some people have many shaps all over the place and they my jump between them but never sit anywhere inbetween others my have lines between where they fit if you wanted a third dimention it could relate to comfort level (how you feel) when you feel you at that point or the amount of time you spend in that place in some way I think a booklet with the above mentioned 2D on each page with a different colour coded key for each page with some pages based on identity (feeling) gender and some on presentation of gender
This may seem controversial. I thought of this in the early 70s when I was trying to make sense of myself.
I realised that, since the basic structure of human society remained essentially the same, since the first societies, right up until WW1, there may be an answer there.
In human societies, especially settled communities, humans existed to fufill a role. The economic role is, of course, essential to any society, specialisation of skills, allows us to concentrate and perfect.
But there is an over riding role we were all expected to perform, that of defending the leaders, protecting and expanding their material wealth.
So, the males were raised to be warriors, while the females were raised to be nurses, providers and bearers of children. The Principal Purpose.
Those that failed to fufill their Principal Purpose were obstructive to the needs of the leaders for protection, of themselves and their wealth.
In some societies, some of these might form a clergy of sorts. A clergy performs a useful role by laying down immutable dictates, almost invariably to suit the interests of the leaders.
But those that are sexually non-conforming were labeled as being disruptive to the greater good of the community. Hence they were marginalised and rejected.
This might be the source of the hostility toward those of us who don't conform to the principal purpose.
The persistance of non-conformists, who seem to emerge, quite spontainously in every society and in every period of history suggests that the traits of gender and sexual non-conformists is innate in human society.
The tendency to persecute non-conformists would seem to be based upon a failure to recognise the contribution they make or for society to fail to provide opportunities to contribute
WOW, I never even thought of any of that stuff when I was coming up with this! I figure anything that helps us gain a better understanding of the whole elephant is good.
I apologize for not being as clear as I should have been. I saw the distance of a point in the space to each of the axes as what defined the "mix of the genders, not where it was along an axis. But then I never thought about gender expression being positive or minus before. It certainly makes sense in a yin-yang sort of way. I'm just not quite sure how to incorporate it.
So in my model, cisgenders would lie solidly anywhere along one of the axes. The origin actually is where bigender/multigender folk like me sit, sort of meta-stable bifurcation of all of the genders, extremely discrete and any gender at any given time. Stable androgynes would be on a single point in any of the quadrants, with Neutrois at the outer fringes of the space. Gender fluid get to play anywhere!
Oh dear, now I'm really confused!
Does this mean there are anti-genders? Negative genders?
If an anti-gender came into contact with a 'normal' gender, would there be anihilation with a great release of energy? ;)
Anti or negative transitions?
Do these axis' go to infinity? Is the concept infinite?
What are the engineering math gender models of male and/or female?
OK, I'm confused, too
I like the idea, but I'd probably make it a scale from, say, 0-100 on both male and female, and have the 0 points of both be the same - the idea of "negative gender" I find unrealistic, but if you have a gender at 0, that means you have nothing of that at all.
I'd also allow one or more Z-axes, for third genders and other positive but non-binary scale identities. I'd also allow each person to plot more than one point at the scale, if they have more than one gender identity or different facets that need expression (body image vs. social role, e.g.), and someone whose male and female numbers are very close would be androgynous. A neutrois would probably have both male and female at very low values, whereas a Third Gender could have any values for male and female, provided their Third Gender value was higher. Hell, you could even have equal values of male, female and Third Gender.
This post is getting a bit out of hand, isn't it? Also, apologies if I've through ignorance offended anyone.
Quote from: E on December 05, 2010, 09:58:10 PM
I like the idea, but I'd probably make it a scale from, say, 0-100 on both male and female, and have the 0 points of both be the same - the idea of "negative gender" I find unrealistic, but if you have a gender at 0, that means you have nothing of that at all
Would the 0-100 have a value at 100? The scale could be 1-100, but again, what are the values? What is the upper limit of each gender? If each person plotted multiple points, even with values to each scale, that would signify what?
I see what the graphing is trying to do, but to what end? I see it as a more accurate way of confusing all the various terms and combinations that already exist. Would we all have an xyz plot numbers to identify ourselves? Would it make any of the terms being used (in combinations) easier to understand?
Yeah, it's out of hand. But I find it a fun exercise just the same. Perhaps there is something to it after all. :)
Hi Virginia,
I have read this post *several* times, and I agree, that engineer brain of yours is well into overtime! ;) I can usually grasp a concept but all those arrows shot right over my head! But please don't let me stop you cause I love the enthusiasm you bring to the subject.
Rylee
Hum, maybe I should just stick to stringing popcorn...or learn to make fruitcake :)
Think it's a lot like popcorn: it's definitely multi-dimensional (though I haven't got any clue as to the number of dimensions), most likely only possible to define in a quantum space since it involves leaps of elements being in different places at the same time...
So yeah, it feels like popcorn...
Love,
Emma
Quote from: Virginia on December 06, 2010, 07:02:58 AM
Hum, maybe I should just stick to stringing popcorn...or learn to make fruitcake :)
Mmmmmm, popcorn. Given androgyne tendency for thread drift though, maybe we
butter not go there! :laugh:
Z
Quote from: Virginia on December 06, 2010, 07:02:58 AM
Hum, maybe I should just stick to stringing popcorn...or learn to make fruitcake :)
Looks like popcorn is getting a lot of votes but I really like fruitcake if it is done well! :D
Quote from: Zythyra on December 06, 2010, 12:20:25 PM
Mmmmmm, popcorn. Given androgyne tendency for thread drift though, maybe we butter not go there! :laugh:
Z
WOW. That's the worst pun I've heard in a long time. GOOD JOB!!! :laugh: ...dang it. For the life of me I can't think of another popcorn pun!!! FOR SHAME!
Mmmm... popcorn and bacon strings
Quote from: Jaimey on December 06, 2010, 05:23:18 PM
WOW. That's the worst pun I've heard in a long time. GOOD JOB!!! :laugh: ...dang it. For the life of me I can't think of another popcorn pun!!! FOR SHAME!
Thank you, thank you! <curtsies>
And here I was worried about being a-salted for corny puns :D :D :D
Z
Zyth, you should be puffed with pride for that pun, and nonbody's going to pop you for it around here...but...
Did somebody say bacon?
http://bykta.com/79/nativity-scene-with-bacon/ (http://bykta.com/79/nativity-scene-with-bacon/)
Oh, and they're all on top of spaghetti...
'Oh Little Town of Baconham'
Quote from: Zythyra on December 06, 2010, 08:43:48 PM
Thank you, thank you! <curtsies>
And here I was worried about being a-salted for corny puns :D :D :D
Z
You are on a role! Two thumbs up, just for the halibut! >:-) It appears we both got sole.
To heck with the soul. Let's adjourn to the coast of Maine for a freshly caught halibut sandwich. Some of you might prefer the lobster role, but then your goose would be cooked.
Or come here tonight. I'll be making latkes and applesauce for the masses.
S
Quote from: Simone Louise on December 08, 2010, 04:04:10 PM
Or come here tonight. I'll be making latkes and applesauce for the masses.
Happy Chanukah! Someday we'll have to have an in person latke fest!
Z
This whole conundrum reminds me of the Geek Code from earlier in the days of the Internet.
http://www.geekcode.com (http://www.geekcode.com)
Simple fact is that I think even a 3D axis is insufficient. We'd need to apply set theory. Crude example of my case:
[[multiple[alternating[male|female]][XY][MTF][presentation[consistent[female]]][names[Rob[assigned]|Sydney[changing to]]]
QuoteWe'd need to apply set theory.
So
{biofemale xx [transgender]stable[androgyne] presentation[punk, light goth, business] identity[singular]name[changing to androgyne name] physique[trying for slender, muscular and vaguely boyish]}
Something like that
Heh...
maybe we should make a trans code wiki on here... :laugh:
Do you think Susan would accommodate us?
Quote from: rite_of_inversion on December 09, 2010, 03:02:22 AM
So
{biofemale xx [transgender]stable[androgyne] presentation[punk, light goth, business] identity[singular]name[changing to androgyne name] physique[trying for slender, muscular and vaguely boyish]}
Something like that
Heh...maybe we should make a trans code wiki on here... :laugh:
Do you think Susan would accommodate us?
We just might wind up blowing their minds. >:-)
Happy Chanukkah to you Zythyra, and to all you unicorns who want to celebrate with us.
I've made latkes thrice in the past 8 days (my wife says I make a good rebbitzin) and expect to do it twice more for those who couldn't get here during festival. Plus when the daughter returns from college, we'll make her favorite: Chanukkah fried chicken with raisin risotto. Show up and we'll exchange a physical hug, until then, may we continue to meet here.
You might be one of the most generous people on the planet, Simone Louise!
You do understand, Jaimey, that even though UPS delivers many, many packages all over the world, I have bought and sent merely the tiniest fraction of them.
Too bad New England is not on your way home.
With love,
S
Too bad, indeed!
Virginia,
How about a model that looks similar to the yen-yang symbol you have as your avatar that represents an interposed collection of gender traits for males and females. You would then define your gender by a line that weaves through the space of gender traits. Why does gender have to be a point on a line or even in 3-d space?
Perhaps we could call it the string-theory of gender?
brenn
It's never been a point on any line or 3D model, or a point anywhere.
It's never any better than a hazy area(s) defined by hazy definitions that attempt to define an edge that is as hazy as the fog that disappears into the night.
Be happy that the batteries don't go dead in your flashlight. ;)
Peace on Earth and Goodwill Towards Mankind
A string-theory of gender? A g-string theory?
Quote from: sfem on December 26, 2010, 07:31:22 AM
A string-theory of gender? A g-string theory?
I read through different gender theories wondering if I would fit into it. I wonder If a g-string theory would be large enough to hold me in I've had 2 g-strings recently one fit well the other had not enough room
Quote from: Jaimey on December 06, 2010, 05:23:18 PM
That's the worst pun I've heard in a long time. GOOD JOB!!! :laugh: ...dang it. For the life of me I can't think of another popcorn pun!!! FOR SHAME!
Did you ever see the Mythbusters episode where they tried to pop popcorn using explosives? That was fun to watch.
Mythbusters = best television show ever
Quote from: VeryGnawty on December 29, 2010, 09:36:19 PM
Did you ever see the Mythbusters episode where they tried to pop popcorn using explosives? That was fun to watch.
Mythbusters = best television show ever
...I have not seen this. I'd butter get on that! It's sure to be explosive!