With HRT coming up relatively soon for me.. somethings been simmering on my mind - really the only thing that I would let hold me back from transitioning.
Is transexuality deliberately walking in sin? I've read lots of articles and sermons that view the topic from either way, most pointing to the fact that God has made us either Male or Female.. and since that's how we're made that's how we should be - even though they recognize that someone with GID will suffer living as born. I've read articles where they support detransitioning, recognizing it will be brutally hard for the rest of their life because there is a real issue here.. but they need to live with and fight the issue and live as their birth sex. These viewpoints also say that even though there are proven brain differences and such - they do not matter - what matters is organs at time of birth. And pretending to be anything else/SRS is just a visual delusion, you're still the man you were born or whateber.
But then how does intersexuality fit into this. Are they going to deny testosterone to males that are incaple of producing there own? Are they going to deny an individual at a chance of getting a limb if they weren't born with one.. just because that is how God created them?
I've read other articles where it says that being trans is okay - because one should make no drastic changes (as long as it's not deliberately sinning) after they have joined the church (something from Apostle Paul). However.. how does this fit with my view point that I'm already a Christian and have been for years, does this just mean I should shut up and continue to suffer as female?
Honestly I'm not worried about what other people think, I can deal with them.. but I do believe in God and in Heaven.. and in Jesus saying that the path is narrow, and many will try but few will get in.. and all that stuff.
I've read about many trans that have detransitioned not because of social pressure but because they felt that it was against Gods way, but then I know trans that are ministers, and trans that said they could live a proper spiritual life in their birth sex..
It's so mixed and in the end I need to make a decision for myself on this I know. No one can tell me what is right or wrong when it comes to this topic.. however.. any one else dealt with this issue?
To add even more into the mix on doubt.
I attended bible college for a year, small school. That year was the only year that I didn't really have trouble with gender, or depression, or anxiety. There wasn't really any differentiation on gender there, everyone could do everything other then a few fun girls or boys nights out. There was no pressure for relationships. It was just about living in community with others. It was a very small group and it was a place where I felt I could just be me without judgement.. I wa relatively masciline there.. and people didn't care.. however I was not out as trans - as during that time... the trans thing wasn't an issue for me?
The only other time I've really felt that way is now living full time as male. I'm able to make good friends again, and live in community with others, and be bold, and anxiety and depression free.
When not in either situation.. just being a female in the average world holding onto faith.. depression, anxiety, suicidal, etc. etc. shy.. very socialy anxious, couldn't connect with people..
So I mean.. I spose I could go live in a christian commune that doesn't look at gender, doesn't force relationships.. and likely be happy. But I also kinda have doubts that those places exist outside of my little bible college bubble.. and I want to be in a relationship, and in a relationship I can only see myself as being male, I can't see being female in a relationship.
*SIGH*
Gah I almost wish I didn't believe in God.. because there would be nothing stopping me from transitioning.. but this whole religion thing makes me feel like I'm maybe supposed to live my life in agony.. as female.
You can choose science or superstition, but in the end you can't have both. If all your prayers don't work, and you have to resort to science to make you whole, just how powerful is/was your god anyway?
P.S. Paul was the Sara Palin of Xanity.
So Paul is an right wing idiot that no one should pay attention to? Sorry that's how I see Sarah.
I donno, maybe science is the answer to GID in terms of transition. Maybe God has made this avaiable as an answer to these struggles.
I beleive that God gives people challenges to figure their ways through to make them a stronger and more complete person. But does that mean that I struggle through transition (which many christians view as immoral) or does that mean I should struggle at finding the feminine me. O_o.
Gah. This topic stresses me out.. because I've worked my way through all other doubts I have, and just as I'm feeling all good about heading onto HRT.. this topic pops up into my range of thinking.
I was thinking more like Paul prostituted Xianiaty in the same way the Sara prostitutes the conservative cause, for personal ego.
There are a lot of different ways to see the bible and Christianity. Maybe try finding a non denominational church. There are some that are very glbt friendly. Maybe seeing people like you who are gay, trans, and the like together in prayer might help you. They also might have a lot to say on the issue. Just a suggestion.
I'm struggling with this myself and should follow my own advice but I guess I'm just hoping that the God I know loves me for me and wouldn't condemn me for making myself sane and happy.
I know a lot of trans and gay people of faith though, even a trans minister. Gah... but yeah. Sigh. It still eats away at me. Noestly I think it's from growing up in a culture that says trans is wrong. If I had grown up in a culture/church that said trans was right I don't think I'd be having any doubts here right now, and I probably would have come out along time ago. But sighh
also what do people think of this? Is it some kind of evil desire to be male? Not that this has anything to do with being queer specifically.. but it's a verse that people apply to the issue. But then there are verses saying eunechs are okay - and alot of guys became eunechs voluntarily.
James 1
12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death
Or this - old testament - outdated I know
A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this" (Deuteronomy 22:5).
or this one (appears homosexuality is some kind of punishment?)
Romans 1:18–32
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Gah i'm so lost. I know it's something I need to come to terms with between me and God.
but really... anyone else dealt with this?
hmm interesting reading.. I like the way this person thinks. Kinda along the same lines as me.
http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/spirit.html (http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/spirit.html)
I believe so differently than you all seem to. I feel the answer to this question is very obvious.
Man is of three parts. The physical body we can see and touch. The soul which animates us as well as animals, and spirit. God is spirit not flesh. It is the spirit part that is in his image. The bible tells you over and over that god is spirit so how can the flesh be made in his image.
Image was never brought into this good sir. I believe the same as you in that regards. I don't believe God is male or female but rahter both in spirit. Still, most of us are born into one of 2 distinct sexes (notice I didn't say all of us).. and crossing over that physical sex seems to be the main issue that I'm running into.
Like most people, I can't tell you anything for certain. We have free will and that means, ultimately, we make up our own minds.
But I will tell you how I resolved this and many other issues I had with God.
I read the Gospels.
To me, the message of Jesus is that we must obey the 10 commandments.
Jesus effectively put aside all the other laws, that had built up, with his injunctions, that we must not kill and that we must never judge each other, on behalf of God. (The 6th and 3rd commandments).
Jesus then clarified a number of other commandments. In particular, he made it clear that there is no compulsion to attend church.
There are many different groups, all claiming to follow the true teachings. Many that claim to follow the Bible exactly. Others that seek to maintain what they believe are standards.
Then there are a number of additions, from subsequent preachers, St Paul for example, who also add bits on, women must wear a hat and be silent, for example.
I take everything, other than that which Jeaus taught as local innovation. People are free to follow these notions, but only the teachings of Jesus are paramount.
So, I know that God has given us the gift of intelegence and that we have used it to create many wonderful things. I also accept that, with our intelegence and our faith, we have developed our society so that is a very different sort of life than that which people endured in the past.
I see no reason why I should not adjust any aspect of my own life, provided I don't go against the commandments.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you'll go to hell if you're a transsexual. It does say, however, that eating shellfish is an abomination. :o Not eating shrimp seems to be the more important issue in the Bible, since it was mentioned at all.
As far as God detesting someone who wears clothes of the opposite sex...I thought God was supposed to love everyone? If you detest someone, there's not a lot of love there.
Jesus never mentioned anything at all about the clothes issue, as far as I know.
FWIW, I stopped believing in the Bible a few years ago. As a teenager I worried myself sick over whether I was "right with God". I finally decided if it was that important to God, he'd let me know, and if he was there, he'd let me know.
Meh God's let me know he's there over other issues. I shoulda been dead multiple times, in way worse shape etc. He's answered off prayers before. The chances of all this stuff happening randomely has to be 1in trillion.. with the odds I have had over so many life circumstances, I have to believes he's there with me.
Quote from: jmaxley on December 09, 2010, 07:14:30 AM
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you'll go to hell if you're a transsexual. It does say, however, that eating shellfish is an abomination. :o Not eating shrimp seems to be the more important issue in the Bible, since it was mentioned at all.
Eating shellfish is such an abomination. For that matter, so is this: menstruation, beating your slaves to death, using false measures, and eating pork.
I am glad to say that I do not like shellfish.
I'm a cis-male (apologies if that's inappropriate terminology here) and a Christian.
First, the Bible says absolutely nothing about being trans. NOTHING.
Second, I'd say that male and female were created in God's image. And female is not "less" in God's image than male (it's not like "Female is like God, except for not having a penis" or garbage like that). If both are equally in God's image, that implies something about God's sex organs...and also implies perhaps that the garbage taught today about gender roles in the church, with men being leaders, women being servants, and, thus, God being male, is perhaps bad theology. To be blunt, I don't expect that God has or desires a penis. Or a vagina. He's neither and both male and female.
Many Jewish scholars believe Adam was intersexed - that everything woman was in Adam and everything male was in Adam, which is how Eve was created "from Adam's body".
Quote from: Tad on December 07, 2010, 01:20:54 AM
I know a lot of trans and gay people of faith though, even a trans minister. Gah... but yeah. Sigh. It still eats away at me. Noestly I think it's from growing up in a culture that says trans is wrong.
Yes, exactly. It's culture, not theology.
Quote from: Tad on December 07, 2010, 01:20:54 AM
also what do people think of this? Is it some kind of evil desire to be male? Not that this has anything to do with being queer specifically.. but it's a verse that people apply to the issue. But then there are verses saying eunechs are okay - and alot of guys became eunechs voluntarily.
Do you feel you are a female BECOMING male, or do you feel that you are already male, perhaps also desiring your body to reflect the truth within? If you see yourself as male, then how can making the outside reflect the heart be wrong?
Quote from: Tad on December 07, 2010, 01:20:54 AM
Or this - old testament - outdated I know
A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this" (Deuteronomy 22:5).
It says a lot of things in the old testament we don't do today. I haven't put a railing up on my roof (Deut 22:8), many farmers plant two kinds of seeds in fields (Deut 22:9), I don't mind linen/wool blends (Deut 22:10), and I have nothing with tassles on my garments (Deut 22:11). This is just in the 22nd chapter of Deuteronomy. The way a wife who is supposedly not an "intact" virgin is treated is pretty ugly. Deut 22:22 supports death in cases of adultery (defined in the Bible as a man sleeping with a married woman - not the other way around ever). Deut 22:24 has you stone women who were raped if they can't stop the rape by screaming. Deut 22:29-30 says that if you rape a non-engaged virgin woman, she is forced to marry you.
If someone is going to say Deut 22:5 is important, but then be willing to disregard almost everything else in that chapter because it doesn't apply outside of the culture it was given to, I'd say they are using a very bad bible interpretation method. You have to be consistent. I'd say Deut 22:5 is not applicable to our society for the same reason that the rest of the chapter is not.
Quote from: Tad on December 07, 2010, 01:20:54 AM
or this one (appears homosexuality is some kind of punishment?)
Romans 1:18–32
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
First, we don't really know what this was talking about in verse 26/27. But that said, even if it was talking about homosexuality as we now it (very unlikely actually - it was likely talking about pagan religious rites, not committed love between two consenting adults), it is talking about heterosexuals that were forced to lust after people they didn't naturally lust after. This is not the experience of any gay person I know - they aren't being forced to be attracted to the same sex, having previously been attracted to the opposite sex, as is described in this verse.
Quote from: Tad on December 07, 2010, 01:20:54 AM
Gah i'm so lost. I know it's something I need to come to terms with between me and God.
but really... anyone else dealt with this?
Sadly, yes, lots of people have to deal with this.
I don't agree to throw out Paul as a bigot. But I do think you have to be careful in reading Paul (or any other Bible books), to make sure that you understand the context and culture it was written in. Paul certainly wasn't writing about transgender people or even committed marriage between same-sex people - these weren't concepts that he would have even considered in his culture. In his culture, it made no sense for two men or two women to marry - who would be in charge (this is also the reason why Biblical polygamy always has only one man involved)? Who would own the women?
Today, we're smart enough - even in the church (grin) - to see that women are hardly property. But they absolutely were in the old testiment. Read the commandment about coveting your neighbor's wife - you'll see that the commandment inserted her between two items of property, because she WAS property. You'll also not find any commandment against a man sleeping with multiple women (Martin Luther actually supported polygamy, so this wasn't just ancient Christianity) - but today we see that as immoral, because we have a different view of women.
I would leave you with this: Galations 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." This was written by Paul.
If male or female roles don't matter for salvation and our relationship with Christ, why would they matter for anything less important? Too many people want to make it "Faith in the Lord saves you, as long as you also ..." Anyone trying to add on to what the Lord requires for salvation, and who tries to deny the freedom we have in Christ by laying regulations on top of it, is changing the Gospel from the "Good News" to the "Book of Rules". You get false gospels like, "These three remain: Faith, Heterosexuality, and Republicans" rather than "These three remain: Faith, Hope, and Love."
Sadly, this view is in contrast to most churches in the American tradition. So this will make it hard to find a good church. Many churches I've seen that have good stances on homosexuality and gender have really weak intellectual rigor when it comes to looking at the scriptures, which is sad and unfortunate. Know that if you walk in contradiction to the American tradition of Christianity, you will face a lot of hate from people claiming to follow Christ but acting very un-Christlike. It's a very hard road. But I believe it to be right and honoring to my savior. You'll have to come to a decision, though - and it's going to be hard. You will have to follow the Christ you know. Not the Christ you were taught to believe in, no matter how well intentioned the teaching was. After all, it was taught through humans.
He came to give people new life - is there not a better metaphor for that than to see someone live as the person God created them to be, even though the world may want to force them into a different mold?
Thanks Slanan, same conclusions I had come to. I've been feeling settled on this matter for a little while now, except for dealing with the unnaccepting relgious people.. that still love me but see this as wrong.
If identity resides in the brain, and your brain tells you you are a man, then you should be wearing what is regarded as stereotypically male clothing shouldn't you? So you are not cross-dressing.
Also, the 9th commandment says not to lie, so if you know you are a man you shouldn't allow society to make you pretend to be a woman either, should you.
Don't worry about it, God knows who you are, even if the religious bigots don't.
Gah. I got a few letters from some unnaccepting christian friends - who their opinions in the past have meant alot to me. And despite the fact that I had come to peace on the issue.. now I'm all like is this wrong and questioning again, and i can't tell if it's anxiety about dealing with these friends or conviction or my cold that's making me feel kinda grody. :/ But I feel like I'm losing it, I had a small desire to tell people I was female.. and it's just like omg. What's going on here, so now I'm all confused. After coming to peace with the whole issue, and having been in stealth with NONE of these kinda feelings... and all of a sudden this just hit.
Quote from: Tad on December 15, 2010, 11:24:00 AM
Gah. I got a few letters from some unnaccepting christian friends - who their opinions in the past have meant alot to me.
I have such friends too, and it is hard to give them up and/or maintain relationships with them. Some who are willing to live with someone who disagrees with them (granted, it's much easier for me as a spouse than it would be for a trans person), some aren't.
In fact, a few years ago, I would have agreed with your friends - I would have KNOWN you were a sinner and that you were on the path t hell. For me, actually knowing someone who didn't fit 'properly' into gender roles has changed my opinions on things. In fact, I married her, with a religious wedding and the blessing of our church, and I count myself fortunate to be in a church that is willing to be open to us, as most people aren't - and that God gave me a chance to see my error. But through knowing the person who became my wife, I was forced to actually question some of the things I was taught. Either she was living a horrible, sinful life and was going to go to hell, or she was, as she claimed, Christian and living the life God had for her. I believe her to be living the life of a Christian, having seen the fruit in her life.
I am amazed, looking back, at how much crap I just blindly believed in - at the expense of the gospel. I have since realized that I wasn't consistent in my interpretation of the scriptures - I accepted the verses that fit my prejudices (including that homosexuality is sin), while rejecting ones that didn't fit my social views (such as verses that allow slavery - I already properly rejecting those). A slave that ran away, according to the New Testament, was violating God's will. I don't think I would say that every slave in America that escaped to freedom was a sinner that was violating the will of God - instead, I'd say that the slave holder was the one violating the will of God. But my view is not based on any particular verse I can quote, but rather indirectly, based on the idea that God intended all of us to be equals through Christ. In fact, someone could find TONS of verses that support slavery in the Bible (same with Polygamy). It's important to figure out WHY those verses don't need to be applied literally today, but the verses on homosexuality do.
Some verses that "support" Slavery:
1 Corinthians 7:21,7:22 - Slaves should remain slaves, unless they can LAWFULLY gain their freedom (there was a provision in Jewish law to allow that)
Ephesians 6:5-8: Christ himself wants slaves to be "good slaves" according to this.
Ephesians 6:9: Words for masters of slaves - be a good master (but it does NOT say to free your slaves)
Colossians 3:22-23: Slaves, obey your masters! That's God's will!
Colossians 4:1: Masters, treat your slaves right (not a command to free them, however).
1 Timothy 6:1: Slaves, obey your masters.
1 Timothy 6:2: Slaves should serve Christian masters even better than they would serve non-Christian masters.
Titus 2:9-10: Slaves should never talk back to their masters, they should respect them.
1 Peter 2:18: Slaves should submit to abusive masters
This is just the New Testament. Sure, there are some verses that imply it's not great to have a slave, and you probably shouldn't do so, but clearly it wasn't a *sin* to have a slave. Could you, in clear conscious, say that the slaves who escaped slavery via the underground railroad in the US, and those who helped them, were acting contrary to God? It seems clear that a slave that ran away would be violating God's will, at least from a literal interpretation of the Bible. If you can't say that they sinned by running away, why? For me, I can say it because it is clear that people are all brothers and sisters, and brothers and sisters shouldn't own each other. So I'm willing to - essentially - discard these verses because I think there is a principle that is more important: equal treatment of God's children. Yet, I can't point to even one verse of scripture that prohibits slavery. In fact, I can point to many verses that allow slavery - FAR more so than speak about homosexuality. If you are going to be literal on verses about homosexuality, you have to be literal on verses about slavery, or at least have a reason why one chunk of scripture is "God's Word for today" and another chunk is not. And that reason better not be able to equally apply to slaves and gay persons, because if it does you have to recognize that neither chunk applies to us today.
The reality is that most people haven't actually studied this - it's really just people who are passing down what they heard from someone else. Sadly, there's often a political motivation that created the whole thing in the first place, but it later gets repeated as "fact" by an unknowing intermediary because "trustworthy" people said it. This intermediary is, him or herself, trustworthy to others, so the chain goes on.
I'd suggest watching "Fish out of water" (the one made in 2009) if you can find it (it is available from Netflix), as that's the most intelligent response to the 7 "clobber" verses that I've seen (only 3 of which are in the New Testament, and none of the 3 were spoken by Jesus), and it's done in a very accessible way. I'd also suggest checking out http://mlp.org/staticpages/index.php?page=biblicalinterp (http://mlp.org/staticpages/index.php?page=biblicalinterp) which is More Light Presbyterian's resource page on the Bible, although to be honest I think the movie does a better job.
Basically, there are tons of different interpretations of these 7 verses. Yes, there's the common mainstream one which is "Gays go to hell". But popularity doesn't make something right. Of the 7 verses, several are from the old-testament law, and, thus, not applicable for that reason alone (the entire book of Hebrews deals with the subject of whether or not we live under the Jewish law since Jesus died).
I know you have a hard walk, whatever direction you walk down it. Christianity isn't exactly popular among the LGBT community (understandably so - so much horrible abuse has occurred in the name of God), nor are trans-people popular among the Christian church. And going through life living as someone you know you aren't isn't any easier, unfortunately. Please stick it out - no matter what choice you make, or what people say. God loves you, created you to bless the world (and maybe to even challenge the church a bit - prophets didn't typically tell people what they already believed!), and He takes great pleasure in your existence and life. I suspect God has made you a very strong man, but it's still okay to need His help. It is a very hard walk, and I will be praying for you to know that God is walking beside you, and is there to help whenever you need it. I encourage other Christians here to do the same. I'll also pray that you'll be able to live as the person God created you to be.
thansk Slanan. Gah I'm crying. Acceptance always makes me feel so good, and it's hard to come by.
With some searching this morning I realize that this funk is likely just from my old bible college friends rejections. They told me they still loved me and woule be rpaying for me, however I'd always be female to them no matter what I did, and while they didn't come out and say it was wrong, they said they couldn't agree with it either. But still, that hurt. It made me realize how divisions in the church happen. Different people believing different things. I had a professor in college that kinda taught on this whole thing, and taught us that each of us need to sort out our own slavation, and what is allowable for some might be not allowable for others. I tried to use this perspective with my friends.. and saying that I had found peace with God over this. I haven't heard back from them since on the issue.
Having a huge history of trying to be a people please - codependent to the world.. and hi9story with serious anxiety, I think that rejection like this has just been tearing down at me, even if I haven't been explicately paying too much attention to it, and creating a false guilt or conviction. Because it does not make sense that after these last 5 months of living full time and feeling no conviction whatsoever, and doors continually being opened in regards to transitioning.. that conviction would randomely hit one night after letters from friends saying no. I donno.. that didn't seem probable to me. So I've set this aside as a stress response to friends, and will continue on my way, always listening for God's guidance. Whatever the road, it will be tough... but that's life.
Anyhow, trying to come up with a middle name as I'm applying for name change in the next dew days. I was thinking of going with the family names Samuel Montgommery as 2 middle names.. but I think I might go for Daniel. Just kinda popped out at me today while I was thinking. Daniel means God is my judge - and in the end I stand accountable to God only, no one else. Daniel also suffered through persecution etc. He is someone to be admired.
OBTW, thanks for th eprayer
Might have already been covered but I know a site that explains or argues against each of these verses that may be heavy on your heart.
http://www.transchristians.org (http://www.transchristians.org)
It helped me when I was struggling with it too. It was enough for me to go to the Liberal side of Christianity....concentrating on God/Jesus' love instead of trying to interpret every single sentence of the bible.
Yay.. more of this. letter I got tonight.
So I finally am getting around to responding, I was hoping to do this much sooner. And I completely agree with you that this is before you and God in the decision process. I am simply honored that you are allowing me to at least see and respond to it. So thank you.
A contextual reason for why I find myself coming to a different conclusion from you Old Testament passages is a result of the deity and purpose I place on the scriptural mandates given to the Jews. I don't believe it was patriarchal and wealth motivated. It is simply that I believe that they (and we) serve a holy God. As ambassadors of His, God chose to set us a part. (This is a well repeated them, especially in Isaiah where God mourns the fact that they have become like the other nations). In His setting us a part, the lifestyle with which He calls us is higher than one which we can meet, simply so that He can provide for our need in that. (Does that make sense? God sets it so high that He has to be God in order for us to be able to live as He has called us to). So His mandate to the Jews was so that He could be their God and provide for them.
As a set part (hear ambassadors) it does not make us better or worse, it simply calls us to live rightly. For the Jews this had to be radical enough that they could understand that. Hence the standards that were set. But I also think these standards speak to the fact that God is holy. Because He is so holy nothing but the blood of His Son could cover even the smallest infraction. And thus we see our utter depravity and His utter desire to redeem us out of that depravity. Instead of a patriarchal or evil/selfish intention it is simply to make visible our complete dependence on God. Something we as humans resist the most of anything we ever have to hear. Hence also why I think nailing the reason for actions and standards to other reasons is so appealing (such as blaming the rules and regulations on the need for wealth and a patriarchal system).
Also I believe that the contradictions in Scripture serve to show a paradoxical statement. Either/Or statements are not the answer, it is not one and it is not the other because there is a paradox that shines through the tension the two opposing statements make. Typically this message has something to do with the heart not just the actions being right before God. So time does not erode God's message, and because He is timeless He is able to stretch across all of our existence with an unfailing message of love and hope in His salvation.
And in present day Jewish practices it is no where near strange to wear tassles on the clothes. Their obsession with following the OT rules is quite severe in the more conservative arenas.
I have also always understood the reference to eunuchs to be those who were unable to reproduce or have sexual intercourse or chose a lifestyle that did not include that (i.e. monks). Granted I haven't taken the time to study this in depth but there is a huge difference in my mind from refraining to reproduce (or being forced to) and choosing to actively change one's gender. Also, removing the foreskin and changing a lifestyle are two different actions. The stretch in my mind to put them in the same camp is too far to make any real connection. Maybe its because I did not follow what you were saying but I didn't find myself confused about what you were saying.
Also the passage from Mark needs to be taken into context. The structure of the passage is meant to be an exaggeration. Although there are other places where a radical statement is literal, this passage was in reference to a specific problem He was addressing. And that is that He was dealing with complacent people. How better to wake someone out of apathy than to make a dramatic statement.
And also I find myself struggling to find the logical progression in the steep slope from gender modification to corrective lenses. There is something so different in my mind from enhancing something to modifying something. Granted some things that enhancify I find difficult to justify but that is because I see a heart issue in what is going on. But nevertheless, the point still stands that the two – gender modification and corrective lenses - are categorically different.
You are absolutely right in pointing out that God does look at the heart. And I am going to make a general statement that I believe that a lot of our problems comes from the fact that our heart wants to be the hero. In today's society gays, lesbians, and transgenders are heroes. A lot of things are glorified, especially the martyred state of transgenders, gays, etc. And so we seek after these things, especially the desire to be our own savior. I believe that feeling the freedom and choice to make changes to our gender or our orientation allows us to feel a sense of being our own savior. And our hearts desire is for those things that we have been taught to seek after, which all of North America is being taught right now to be their own god. But God does look at our heart and sees what it is that we are seeking out. Its a higher standard not a lower standard than having right actions. I know I am saying the exact opposite of what just about any major organization, even Christian, is saying right now, but that is because they are motivated by dollars and appeal, where as for now I have not succumbed to that (there are other things that I have succumbed to, but not that yet, by God's grace). Or a better way to put it is the "come as you are"/"be who you are" gets more numbers and prestige, not actual and authentic loyalty, especially in Christianity.
Please don't feel judged when I say all this. I only share so that you can better understand why I will always see you as Terri Anne. God made you beautiful in His eyes the first time. And to recreate yourself seems to leave you to yourself. I do not deny the struggle you have and the temptations you face now. I have recently come to understand the strength and magnitude of emotions, feelings and thoughts. I have never faced temptations so strong as when Kyle and I started dating and there are things that we have both had to repent of. I tend to be a pretty rational person, so to not be able to control away the desires is difficult for me. I am constantly reminded of my depravity and how much I am failing God, but I have to also trust that He will be my savior in all of this. So please don't hear either a belittling of your struggle. I also have been learning what it means to trust someone enough to let them lead. Which means I've been learning not to wear the pants in Kyle's and my relationship. He gently is present and I am learning to trust that. I feel that this is often the situation for us as individuals as we struggle to feel safe in this world. Why do I say all that? Because I honestly have to wonder if people do not go so far in their searching for safety as to change genders because it feels more right and safe. Tell me if I you disagree, but that is what I think.
Now that I have spilled my gut thoughts, hopefully they can be constructive not destructive to you. Love you dearly. (name)
My response:
The OT references were more a show that we as Christians do not follow them, we are free from the old laws. We eat shrimp and lobster, we have mixed blend clothing, we plant more then two types of seeds in a single feild and we don't consider it sin or whatever. Sure the more strict Jews still follow these laws, because that is still their religion/calling. (Note that many Jews do/have for a long time accepted trans but not homosexuality - they are completely seperate issues and should not be discussed in the same context at all.)
Like I said those were not my translations - however most of them were similar to what I've grown to understand in my own faith. It was one of many formal pieces written on trans issues by ministers.
You also need to understand that this is not changing one's gender. Sex and Gender are two very seperate things. Sex is the physical characteristics you are born with - whether you are born male, female, or one of the 1%+ born with ambiguous genitals. Gender is what one internally feels. Science points to it being hugely influenced during the natal environment and being permanently set between 18-30 months - hence why Transgender individuals can often be identified by age 2 or 3.
Sure there are many variations in the gender spectrum, and most people would never even consider thinking about gender because their gender alines with what is expected of their sex. However when gender and sex severely conflict - that`s where ->-bleeped-<- comes up. It`s kind of hard to explain what it feels like. But I guess I`ll try and explain how this feels. Your gender identity is a hugggeee part of your identity. Most people don`t realize this because this does not cause conflict. However when your identity is in conflict with your body - that causes alot of issues. It causes self loathing, fear of others and how they percieve you (eg as your sex not your gender)... honestly my life in the past felt like wearing a mask and having to lie about who I was to the world. Having to hide away who you are in the core is not an easy task which would explain the suicide attempt rate at 50% for transgender people before transitioning and close to 0% after. From my understanding God makes us as individuals - as in our consciousness (identity of who we are in many realms), the body is just a package that houses this person that God has made, and that this package is often less then perfect. Many people are born with things that are less then perfect, they are born intersexed, or with poor vision, or missing a leg, or born so mangled that they do not survive. However, giving these people a shot at living a normal life, getting them prosthetics, repairitive surgeries etc. does not change who they are as an individual - it just gives them a better quality life. I have to say the same when it comes to my issue - I don`t see much of a difference - there is me, and I come inside some packaging - a human body. If the packaging is a bit screwed up - what`s the harm in fixing that. It isn`t changing who I am as an individual. It`s just freeing me up to be who I always have been. In my own opinion, Terri-Anne the person has never existed, other then a fake persona thrown up to try and fit in with society. It was a lie, a sham, not much more. Something thrown on to try and protect myself from the wrath and disproval of others. But between me and God, I don`t think I was ever Terri-Anne, I was just me - the person who I have always been deep down inside.
I can`t even really identify with your - being your own saviour point. I very much disliked Gays/Lesbians/Trans etc. even in past deciding to transition myself. I viewed them as sinners, as freaks. I've only grown to accept trans people through realizing that I was condemning myself in the process. I don't know where you are from that gays are seen as heros - because here most people still hate them. And honestly I still can't say whether homosexuality is okay with God or not. It's not something that I have had to struggle with. However I have to think it is okay with God, because it is not a choice. Even the largest Ex-Gay Christian programs like Exodous and Narth will tell you that. Take a look at their sites. Whle they believe that all this stuff is very wrong, they say that orientation and gender identity is not a choice, and that they cannot change it. All they can do is teach you to repress it and deny your nature. They say that the most successful way to do this is to avoid any situations that will bring up these issues, and get married - even if the marriage is just to try and live properly and not out of love. They often end up being people just survivng, not particularliy happy. Then if you look at their statistics - they brag when they are able to claim a 10% success rate. Then you look at their leaders - most of them are ex-gays, ex-trans - and most of them have to leave after a few years because they themselves cannot even handle trying to repress who they are. Many of them become ex-ex gays and ex-ex trans, or kill themselves, etc. I don't know why I am saying all of this, but if this was something that God wanted individuals to overcome - I would think that it would be a more impossible task. Rather it seems that the only possible outcome is living in a repressed state - which isn't really being true to yourself, to others, and perhaps to God. I had to struggle through all this with God, and while I can't say what I believe about homosexuality as that isn't really an issue I have to deal with, i can say that between me and God this is okay. God made me who I am, as an individual I am his creation. The packaging that I came in was less then perfect, and in seeking to solve this and find a solution - my faith is only becoming stronger.
Trying to continue the sham of living as a female and trying to fit in as one would be living a lie. Not showing the world who God created me to be. Not allowing me to be me.. probably would be the cause of my death in a few months few years, because it's way to hard to continue to repress such issues. I am a surviver, but this seems to be an issue that would destroy me if not dealt with. Is this recreating myself? I really don't think so. perhaps in societies eyes it is and in your own eyes it is - because oh I'm changing my name, and my physical appearance will change a bit, however it is not changing the essential me - who God created me as.
Now I think that I can understand some of your fears - I think that depending on what certain body modifications mean- tatooeing, piercings, surgeries, sex change, etc. it could be something God has offence with. It just depends on what these actions are a result of, what the real meaning is behind them. If the intent is to take control, to prove something, to worship another god, then yeah - it is wrong. But I can't say that on my fact it is any of those. It's just modifications on the outside to reflect who is on the inside. It's a fix of the packaging.
I really can't expect you to understand, I don't think anyone can even begin to understand unles they have to deal with an issue like this themselves. I've had problems with certain sins in the past - and this kind of issue isn't even remotely the same in terms of emotions, thinking processes etc. (though I don't see this as sin... and between me and God this isn't from what I've grown to understand over time, so I can't really compare them anyways).
Gah. This is difficult. I know eventually I'll have to give up on trying to make people understand, but I figure everyone gets one free attempt at trying it. Thoughts, opinions, better ways I could have explained this?
Tad.
For many, certainly myself, argement is countered by ingorance. We make up our minds and treat the counters of those closest to us, with what amounts to contempt.
I tend to think it's tiresum to spend too much time examining the counter arguments of others, in any great detail. And often, these counters are as intellectually haphazard as our own thinking.
I would like to say it has been a pure pleasure to read these two exchanges. They both come from a position of mutual and self respect. They are both reasoned, and well thought out.
Thank you for sharing them
Let me quote a lot of your what your friend said:
Quote from: Tad on December 23, 2010, 11:07:50 PM
A contextual reason for why I find myself coming to a different conclusion from you Old Testament passages is a result of the deity and purpose I place on the scriptural mandates given to the Jews. I don't believe it was patriarchal and wealth motivated. It is simply that I believe that they (and we) serve a holy God. As ambassadors of His, God chose to set us a part. (This is a well repeated them, especially in Isaiah where God mourns the fact that they have become like the other nations). In His setting us a part, the lifestyle with which He calls us is higher than one which we can meet, simply so that He can provide for our need in that. (Does that make sense? God sets it so high that He has to be God in order for us to be able to live as He has called us to). So His mandate to the Jews was so that He could be their God and provide for them.
I'd agree with your friend here. But I also think that the law was a *compromise* by God, knowing that people wouldn't actually follow a completely holy law - hence allowing slavery, being patriarchal, and treating women like property. God knew they wouldn't accept anything else. Mark 10:1-12 seems to show that Jesus believed that the law was a compromise, because of the Israelite hard hearts. Perhaps treating women as property transactions in the old law was similar - God felt it wrong, quite likely, but the Israelites wouldn't have accepted the truth here, and God wasn't going to quite give up on them.
The law is certainly not perfect. Hebrews 7:18-19: "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." This is talking about the Levitical law. God never intended people to think that following it would be the path to God. This better hope is why Peter is shown he can eat pork, why Paul gets into arguments with people to say that they don't need to be circumcised; both of these were pretty big deals in the law. We can "ignore" them because by *not* ignoring them we would be trying to use the law when we have something better with which to approach God. In fact, it would be a sin to teach that following the law in these areas is necessary - it would be going against scripture. And scripture here is showing a general principle, and is not limited to just pork or circumcision.
Romans 14 is *awesome* for this. The whole chapter is good, but verses 1-4 introduce it: "Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person's faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand." Basically, the "weaker brother" in this context was the person who felt you couldn't eat pork, possibly all meat. The *weaker* brother was the one that couldn't walk in the freedom of Christ. But Paul is very clear - it's a disputable matter, and doesn't really matter in the end. And both will go to heaven.
Quote from: Tad on December 23, 2010, 11:07:50 PM
I have also always understood the reference to eunuchs to be those who were unable to reproduce or have sexual intercourse or chose a lifestyle that did not include that (i.e. monks).
Wouldn't a homosexual be choosing not to reproduce, typically? So that's right but not dressing in accordance with your genitals is wrong? Weird. (that said, I don't believe either is wrong, and I suspect this person writing feels homosexuality is wrong but just wasn't very clear here about the distinction)
Quote from: Tad on December 23, 2010, 11:07:50 PM
Also the passage from Mark needs to be taken into context. The structure of the passage is meant to be an exaggeration. Although there are other places where a radical statement is literal, this passage was in reference to a specific problem He was addressing. And that is that He was dealing with complacent people. How better to wake someone out of apathy than to make a dramatic statement.
By this standard, the entire old testament law is meant to be an exaggeration - a teaching tool. Galatians 3:24-25: "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." I guess the question here is, "When did faith come to a Christian?" If it is at moment of salvation, then it's at moment of salvation - and they should be welcomed to live in faith, rather than by the law.
Quote from: Tad on December 23, 2010, 11:07:50 PM
You are absolutely right in pointing out that God does look at the heart. And I am going to make a general statement that I believe that a lot of our problems comes from the fact that our heart wants to be the hero. In today's society gays, lesbians, and transgenders are heroes. A lot of things are glorified, especially the martyred state of transgenders, gays, etc. And so we seek after these things, especially the desire to be our own savior.
We also seek after rules we can follow, as a substitute for faith. Lots of people will make rules the savior. As for heroism, I believe that would depend on someone's hearts and the reason for doing it - which someone else can't and shouldn't presume to judge.
Quote from: Tad on December 23, 2010, 11:07:50 PM
I believe that feeling the freedom and choice to make changes to our gender or our orientation allows us to feel a sense of being our own savior.
Perhaps for your friend this would be true. But I would caution your friend against this judgment.
Quote from: Tad on December 23, 2010, 11:07:50 PM
Its a higher standard not a lower standard than having right actions.
Yes, it is to live out of a living relationship with Christ. I would call your friend out, if I was in your shoes, if your friend doesn't believe that you have faith and a living relationship with Christ, and you do.
Quote from: Tad on December 23, 2010, 11:07:50 PMPlease don't feel judged when I say all this. I only share so that you can better understand why I will always see you as Terri Anne.
There is judgment there, whether the author wants you to feel it or not. And they can be honest and admit that they have (1) judged you to be in violation of God's will, (2) judged you to be a woman, and (3) judged your heart (being trans is a desire to be your own savior). That's pretty significant judgment, particularly #3.
Quote from: Tad on December 23, 2010, 11:07:50 PMPlease don't feel judged when I say all this. I only God made you beautiful in His eyes the first time. And to recreate yourself seems to leave you to yourself. I do not deny the struggle you have and the temptations you face now. I have recently come to understand the strength and magnitude of emotions, feelings and thoughts. I have never faced temptations so strong as when Kyle and I started dating and there are things that we have both had to repent of. I tend to be a pretty rational person, so to not be able to control away the desires is difficult for me. I am constantly reminded of my depravity and how much I am failing God, but I have to also trust that He will be my savior in all of this.
There's a huge difference between accepting Christ as savior and not doing anything to change one's own situation. One is Biblical, one is not. If I was born poor, I wouldn't say it's not allowing God to be my savior if I found a high paying job and took it. Certainly, the job would NOT be salvation - and would be irrelevant to salvation. If I took it to "save myself" rather than depend upon God, yes, it'd be sin. But a follower of Christ can easily work (Paul did) and not be trusting in work over salvation. The same goes for accepting one's true gender - that doesn't eliminate the need for Christ in the slightest.
Quote from: Tad on December 23, 2010, 11:07:50 PMWhich means I've been learning not to wear the pants in Kyle's and my relationship.
Hopefully this person means to say that Christ is leading the relationship, not that it requires a male to lead a woman. But that's a different subject. Sadly much of the church also gets this wrong.
Quote from: Tad on December 23, 2010, 11:07:50 PMWhich means I've been learning not to wear the
Gah. This is difficult. I know eventually I'll have to give up on trying to make people understand, but I figure everyone gets one free attempt at trying it. Thoughts, opinions, better ways I could have explained this?
I think your response was loving and a demonstration of a Christian's desire to maintain fellowship with others, even when disagreeing over disputable matters. I also think your friend is acting out of the heart, however sometimes the heart is misguided - but I think your friend cares for you from the letter. So there may be hope. That said, if someone didn't accept who I was, I would probably eventually have to leave for my own health - but that's a call you'll have to make.
I've already made my boundaries. I'm dealing with a group of friends here from Bible college that were considered very good friends - big influences in my life. I decided that they would get a few attempts to reason this out with them (more then the average person), but they wouldn't get much more then 2 or 3 letters, and that they would get cut off at any point if it started to stress me out. I don't need people eating away at me. Strangely though, with every letter of this type that I have to answer - I just feel more comfortable and confident... hahaha. My answer just flows out, I don't really have to think about it anymore. The biggest challenge is thinking of words that I can use to try and explain this to individuals who are set in very conservative christianity. (I went to a Bible college that was very conservative - no PDA, no dancing, no watching movies over PG, no being out of dorms after midnight, no alcohol aside from communion, no smoking, etc. etc. etc. We signed a covenent saying we would not do any of this even when at home - til graduation. - So it typically drew the really conservative types).
I'm still waiting on the 'judgements' of a few friends. I got one reply saying that they would have to think about this before they could determine whether they could support me in this or not.
First of all christianity was distorted by Constantine to take control over the populations follwing Yahshua er Jesus.
Some say Peter and paul were spies for the romans and jews to keep and eye on what Yahshua / Jesus was up too.
James his brother and his mother follwed him as any family might feel more inclined to do.
You have to hear from those who have heard from God and that takes those who know the distortions of christianity.
Whatever you do you can still be forgiven if you think its wrong in Gods eyes.
You have to try to understand just really why are you transitioning???
Then and only after these things are realized can you begin to know if your right or wrong.
There are people who believe in three eternal destinies and so they believe those who have never heard the truth won't be condemned for never knowing God and they unlike the christians believe those who don't know ( verses those who deny) will be saved just at a different time.
Quote from: Tad on December 24, 2010, 12:41:25 PM
Strangely though, with every letter of this type that I have to answer - I just feel more comfortable and confident... hahaha. My answer just flows out, I don't really have to think about it anymore.
With respect Tad, Pride comes before a fall, or for the scientifically minded, overconfidence leads to folly.
If you want to make every effort to bring your friends over to you, you might think a bit harder about what you write.
It's easy to push people away with argument. Done that meself with most people. But that just leaves you alone and isolated.
You are a pretty smart fellow and full of confidence. But somehow, I don't see you wanting to be alone.
Sorry if I'm talking out of turn to you. I'm incredably impressed with the reasoning and thought that went into your last exchange. Be sad to waste that now.
Quote from: spacial on December 24, 2010, 02:16:42 PM
With respect Tad, Pride comes before a fall, or for the scientifically minded, overconfidence leads to folly.
If you want to make every effort to bring your friends over to you, you might think a bit harder about what you write.
It's easy to push people away with argument. Done that meself with most people. But that just leaves you alone and isolated.
You are a pretty smart fellow and full of confidence. But somehow, I don't see you wanting to be alone.
Sorry if I'm talking out of turn to you. I'm incredably impressed with the reasoning and thought that went into your last exchange. Be sad to waste that now.
Spacial is right about not wanting to be alone but if your a loner before transitioning chances are you will be one after. Thats the one thing that many don't think about before transitioning. They don't resolve their personal issues and think transitioning will solve everything. I know this to be true because i am a loner (and i always have been) and well for me i will probably always be one due to my being bipolar. I do get along with people in working situations but i am probably destined to be single as i have always been. So make sure your resolving personal issues before transitioning especially at your young age. Myself i found a spirituality that sufices me and being post op and only interested in women who desire a spiritual life leaves me single. However, you need to know that you have built relationships with your friends at college but time will tell if they will let you go due to transitioning and if that is worth the loss.
hugs :-)
PS: i do serve a great purpose in life helping the elderly which is one thing i do well and many can't deal with it. Having a purposeful life is one of the main things all people need to keep on keeping on and know Love of self which is the greatest love of all. One needs to love self before one can ever love another
if your a loner before transitioning chances are you will be one after.
QFT
Matter of fact, you could pretty much make that a universal.
if your a ______ before transitioning chances are you will be one after.
It might change a little bit of what you are, it can not, and does not change who you are.
Quote from: tekla on December 24, 2010, 03:15:03 PM
if your a loner before transitioning chances are you will be one after.
QFT
Matter of fact, you could pretty much make that a universal.
if your a ______ before transitioning chances are you will be one after.
It might change a little bit of what you are, it can not, and does not change who you are.
ahhh haaa ;D
takes one to know one 8)
ya guys went off on some tangent that I'm not even following.. O_o. ????
Can't say anywhere that I was demonstrating pride.. confidence yes, but pride no. Confidence is a big thing for me to be gaining, after spending years in hiding out/anxiety groups/social anxiety disorder. Last year I wouldn't have even been able to open an email like this, instead I would have tried to pretend it didn't exist while having a panic attack. Replying would have been an impossible feat, and if somehow I had managed to - I would have paniced until I got a reply back... not been able to sleep... and this would have been about any topic - grades, religion, argument with friends, etc. Transition has gotten rid of that for me. I no longer have to repress and hide, and I can just be me and my confidence has actually become.. like that of a normal individual?
Same with friends - in the end it does not matter if I lose these friends or not, I've made plenty of new friends since then. Transitioning has allowed me to become, confident in myself, able to make new friends, not be scared of people and their judgements of me, to finally just be myself - and this has created a lot of new, great friendships for me. I don't even see these Bible College friends anymore - just talk to them on facebook/etc. once in a while - I'll likely only see them once or twice again in my lifetime. I KNOW that I will not be able to win them over, all I'm really asking for them is to not judge me - because it's not their place, it is between me and God. However that is likely an impossible task. Just the same I felt the need to give some reasoning, some explanation of why I am at peace with this with God.. so I tried my best to explain it. That's all this is.
BTW, how would you suggest I reply better to not push them away. I can't say that I thought my writing would have such an effect anymore then her writing would. You can't debate a subject like this without being somewhat firm to a side. I mean, in the end, the only way I can see not pushing away is admitting that being trans is wrong.. and go ex-trans.
Can't say anywhere that I was demonstrating pride. . .
I am at peace with this with God.
There. You see? You just did it. As my Jesuit teacher would have told me - and did, repeatedly - the question of how much you're at peace with god is worthless, the only issue is 'Is god at peace with you?"
It makes no difference if I believe in god or not. It makes a huge difference, if you believe, if god believes in me.
A faith-based person would have written that so god is first, not second, and that, is pride.
Quote from: tekla on December 24, 2010, 06:49:45 PM
Can't say anywhere that I was demonstrating pride. . .
I am at peace with this with God.
There. You see? You just did it. As my Jesuit teacher would have told me - and did, repeatedly - the question of how much you're at peace with god is worthless, the only issue is 'Is god at peace with you?"
It makes no difference if I believe in god or not. It makes a huge difference, if you believe, if god believes in me.
A faith-based person would have written that so god is first, not second, and that, is pride.
But I can't be at peace with God unless God is at peace with me I believe. (This was discussed in an earlier writing that wasn't posted here). And you can't grammatically restructure that sentance to have God first in the writing. God, I am at peace with, over this issue? Grammatically it's wrong and is just choppy. however.. whatever.
Tad,
I'm sorry, that was me. I do apologise for my presumption. I'm pretty sure you know what you're doing and what you want to achieve.
I assumed you were hoping to bring these friends round to you could keep them. I fully understand now.
Best of luck and have a wonderful Christmas.
I know I'm an idiot - and proud of it - but do this. Go to your journal or diary or whatever and under the heading, December 24, 2010, write this.
Today a total fool told me I've already lost the faith, I just don't know it yet.
Get back to me in two years and tell me I'm wrong. But either you're right, or you're bible study buddies are, can't have it both ways.
No problem spacial. I was kinda cofused there.. still am, but it's fine.
If I can keep them I will, I'm not going to work overhard to do it though. If they are going to judge me, I can't see the reason as to why I would want to keep them as friends. Now if I felt there was some truth to their judgement (aka I was in the wrong with God) - I'd want to keep them around to help me get back on the right path, but I can't say that God has given me any sign or conviction that I'm in the wrong here so I will only put up with correspondance for so long before I let this go. Still I partly welcome their arguments in an attempt to perhaps see if I can find conviction, to see if my eyes will be opened to this as sin, I donno... I think it's just to make sure that I have thouroughly investigated my faith and stance on this matter? In essence, I'm trying to make myself vulnerable and open at every point, in case I've just been to calloused to see the truth, opening myself up for the voice of God in case he has more to say on the issue. However, with every correspondance, with every situation in life, all I can find is that I am more at peace on this issue; at Peace with God/He with me.
Edit: Dear Tekla. Still don't get the point of your post - what are I or my bible study buddies wrong about? About trans being wrong? And even if it is wrong or right - does that mean I've lost my faith or they have or whatever?
Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
If god is perfect, then god can not make a mistake. If god made a mistake, then there is no god as you now have a concept of god.
I have not refered to anything as a mistake and if I did I did not mean so in the presumption you have made. I do not view what I am as a mistake, I am not whether people tell me so or not - no less is a mistake that a man is born blind or deaf. Rather I view myself as an individual that was created flawed in societies eyes and not God's eyes. He made me as he meant to make me. I view the soul, the individual as the item that God really cares about and not the body. The body is just packaging for an individual. The body can have flaws in our eyes - because we as society have standards for what is normal and what isn't. However these flaws do not mean we are not perfect in God's eyes - rather he has built us with challenges to overcome - whether it be to live life with a handicap or find a way to get past the handicap. These circumstances help to shape us as individuals, to become the people we are meant to be. Since I view myself as an individual in a piece of packaging, changing the packaging doesn't come up as a sin for me.. because it's just a piece of packaging - of no real significance when it comes to relationship with God. At this point in time, well as in pre transition - I was not able to live withint the world as who I was internally created to be. My body was restricting me, it was causing me to lie about who I really am. If I can show the world the truth of who I really am, shouldn't I be compelled to do so?
I also believe in conceptually understandings of the bible, not literal. That is what I am lead to believe from reading the NT. I follow the basic principles that are outlined throughout the bible, not word for word belief - because there are many many contradictions throughout it, and we must remember that the Bible was written by man, and approved by another group of men. In the end I think it boils down to loving one another - even if one looks at the 10 commandments - if you loved one another, you would commit none of those 10 commandments, because they would be hurting God or hurting another man. And I do believe that's why much of the old testament law can be set aside - while the new testament focus's on faith and living God's love, the old testament was more about following rules to set the chosen peoples apart from other individuals, as well asmany of them were good basic rules for health at the time. The OT was more a literal following then a conceptual following. However since as Christian and not a JEw, the Law (OT) is negated through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
I'm sorry if I'm not good at clearly presenting my ideas, it is a flaw of mine. I write rather poorly.
I'm writing this before taking the time to attempt to slog through this thread (your friend is even more wordy than I am!)
One quick point - if you are trying to resolve this within the normative of the Christian Faith, tekla - with all due respect - isn't going to help you do that. Tekla is going to tell you to get over the myths, maybe not directly but still - there's not going to be any real help in finding peace with god about this.
That said...
I think too many people, well intentioned and not untaught though they may be, overlook something very basic about the Christian faith - something god drew a picture on right from the first few chapters of Genesis.
We live in a fallen world where bad things happen. Not because god "makes a mistake" every time there's a tornado or an earthquake or a car wreck - but because the whole system is broken.
One can, of course, have a theological debate about whether god made a mistake to ALLOW the fall to happen, that's for another day. but if your premise is (and this is the premise of the Christian Faith) that the Fall was part of God's ultimate plan and not a mistake, then you need not ascribe any bad thing which derives from that as a mistake.
Among the "bad things" that happen are human disease, illness, deformity, accidents, and birth defects.
Now, in any of these cases - when we have the medical science to alleviate suffering, all mainstream Christianity (JW's aside) believe that we should act.
there is no argument offered, nor would it be rational to offer it, that those who are suffering continue to suffer because God allowed the suffering in the first place. No one says to those with cancer "If god hadn't wanted you to have cancer, he wouldn't have let it happen - therefore we wil not act to try to cure you"
Thus, the proposition that "if you are born into some circumstance in which you are suffering, you should therefore endure the suffering and not act to alleviate it because it's god's will that you endure through suffering" is clearly and entirely incorrect.
Yet - it seems to me - that is the argument being offered to you (I base this only on your OP, having not read the rest of the thread). you were born female, thus for whatever reason God expects you to endure through the suffering that arises from that, even when a relief for it is available.
The counsel is based on an obviously and demonstrably false premise.
One can, i suppose, take some other tactic to argue that God would not want us to transition - but the whole business of "you were born like that thus God wants you to stay like that" is laughably easy to disprove to anyone with the tiniest hint of logical thinking about them. (and no cracks about how logical people are not religious please).
Thanks I was getting that impression about Tekla, hehehehe. Though I welcome people's challenges. I enjoy being challenged in my faith as it offers oppurtinuties to hopefully learn, grow, and draw closer to God.
Anyhow Tammy. I get what your saying, and it's an argument that I've been trying to use as well with all of my condemning associates, however I often make it much more wordy. XD. I tend yo be wordy and somewhat confusing. Really I have met very few christisns that actually have an issue with trans - the only ones that do are the very conservative based ones like my bible college friends and the parents. Feel free to slog through if you want, though unnesseccary. The thread has evolved from a few of my own doubts, to dealing with the doubts of others. I think I liokrely repeat myself alot.
I wan to try to get through the comments from your study group and your friend at least (I believe i picked up that there ware some there) because I'm always sort of trying to have my antenna up for potential lines of attack so i can be ready for them.
Quote from: Tad on December 24, 2010, 07:49:16 PM
No problem spacial. I was kinda cofused there.. still am, but it's fine.
If I can keep them I will, I'm not going to work overhard to do it though. If they are going to judge me, I can't see the reason as to why I would want to keep them as friends. Now if I felt there was some truth to their judgement (aka I was in the wrong with God) - I'd want to keep them around to help me get back on the right path, but I can't say that God has given me any sign or conviction that I'm in the wrong here so I will only put up with correspondance for so long before I let this go. Still I partly welcome their arguments in an attempt to perhaps see if I can find conviction, to see if my eyes will be opened to this as sin, I donno... I think it's just to make sure that I have thouroughly investigated my faith and stance on this matter? In essence, I'm trying to make myself vulnerable and open at every point, in case I've just been to calloused to see the truth, opening myself up for the voice of God in case he has more to say on the issue. However, with every correspondance, with every situation in life, all I can find is that I am more at peace on this issue; at Peace with God/He with me.
Thank you Tad.
Though we may be seeing slighly different scenery on some occasions, I am pleased that I seem to be walking, essentially, the same road as you.
I look at humans and don't see imperfections, just a remarkable difference between ourselves and other life. That we can think so tangently, metaphorically and hypothetically.
I revel in that uniqueness and try very hard to use it. The teachings of Jesus pointed the direction for me.
<3
Well I got another reply (from the last set of letters I posted).
I've let this sit for a couple of days hoping that I would find an appropriate response but I can't seem to find any that wouldn't turn it into an argument which I won't do. So as long as I am not abandoning you in your processing I'll refrain from responding to what you said. Hope your Christmas break is going well. Happy New Year! (name).
Not sure what this means. it's clear though that she's not in agreement, but that perhaps it comes down to interpretation of scriptures rather then anything else.
Quote from: Tad on December 29, 2010, 03:34:24 PM
Not sure what this means. it's clear though that she's not in agreement, but that perhaps it comes down to interpretation of scriptures rather then anything else.
I'm guessing it means "I think you're wrong, but I can't explain why." It's a pretty major shift for people to go from American selective fundamentalist-literalist Christianity to something a bit more consistent with less rules and more grace.
But at some point knowing that an argument is no longer productive isn't necessarily a bad thing on either of your parts.
Yeah, I wasn't ready to argue anyhow. However, Ikind of like the fact that she can't explain why she thinks it's wrong. Because it means I've caused her to stretch into some corner of her faith that she doesn't exactly know why. Perhaps in the long run it will be a favourable outcome for me.
Hello,
I also am a Christian that has go struggled through a lot of the same questions. Please bear with me because i will try tell you how the issue was finally resolved and i am now at peace with the answers that i got.
One of the problems that i had was that people will tell you what they believe is true through their own mindset. But no matter how hard i searched or spoke to others it never settled the question my heart and mind. It finally dawned on me i was asking the wrong question.The real question i needed to ask was it is true that i am trasgendered or not and how does God see me.
At this point i was reminded of what Jesus himself said You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. So what did this mean to me? I need to know the truth and how to go about finding out the truth. Could it be i was not asking the right person?
It was about this time that i was going through a study of Romans and we were going through chapter 8 and we had just gotten to verses 18-25 and it seemed like these verses jumped right off the page
Romans 18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration not by its own choice,bu t by the will of the one who subjected it,in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the Spirit groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
The four words in bold were the ones that stood out the most. (I think someone is trying to tell me something)
Ok i think i am being told something is not right with my body and it will be fixed.
It was at this point i was then reminded that Jesus also said He is the good shepherd and He knows His sheep and the sheep hear His voice and He calls them by name.
I am beginning to see a pattern here maybe i need to ask God what name He calls me by. Sounds a bit wierd but ok lets try asking and see where it leads. I got the answer and it was not what i had thought it would be. Because i thought maybe it would be either my given name or the female version of my name. It was neither but it is female. He sees me as a woman not a man. If He sees me as a woman and not a man how then can it be a sin?
But i do still have a problem as it is still subjective. I do need some confirmation that i am not hearing or seeing this wrong. Time after time He has brought others that have not known the situation and has confirmed to my mind and heart that it is true and i will be changed. The one that totally confirmed it was through my niece whom i hadn't seen in years and was 10 years old at the time and looked at me and said you are going to be a girl. She did not know about this.
I know this sounds really off the wall but all i can say is it's a God thing as i can not explain it any other way.
All i can say at this point this is how i was gotten through this point in my life. I hope that this can give you a different way of looking at it that may gives you the answers you are looking for.
Sarah.
Thank you. That was very revealing and interesting.
Just thought I'd mention that the friends backed off.. I have heard from them since - they haven't brought up anything about my GID. We've talked, and I guess my name and gender has just been avoided it seems as well as the whole GID topic.. which is okay. I wasn't expecting them to accept me as me, but it's nice to know they also aren't out there hating me now. Umm, dad started telling the relatives, I got emails from a few of them saying I was making a poor choice/sermons against homosexuality etc.. but saying they'd still love me because despite gender, I still am who I am and they love me for that. I'm going to a family wedding in a couple weeks.. and it'll be the first time seeing a lot of these people.. and I'm scared. I know they love me, but I also don't want awkward conversations at a wedding which is supposed to be happy. Umm.. job wise I'm unsure, I've been offered my old job back by a very conserative christian couple that is typically very unnaccepting of deviation for the summer, it's freaking good pay. My parents told them back in October, though I'm not sure what they told them.. I'm worried that if I take the job I might be subjected to having to talk about this and religion every day, however I'm also having no luck finding other work.. so it might be my only option. Had to come out to a few more christian friends because it turns out they were in my classes - and they are still my friends despite not agreeing with my lifestyle choices - they did nothing ti out me the whole semester which was great. hmmm.. oh religion. I've found a trans friendly church that I've attended when I've had time, and found inner peace on the whole religion front at least for now. However if I move baco the the parents to take the good paying old job, that means the old church - which I have no idea who knows and who doesn't now.. I'm sure the gossip chains been busy - they are baptist though they have taken a step or two to accept gay people (though no openly gay people attend the church).. so I donno... Run into a few other people here and there that think our kind is going to hell... but in general things are good. :) Got to love religion.
Hey tad bless you your going thru a lot right now. Know God is with you and well as long as you love God you will survive. Not sure what else to say hugs
Thanks for the update Tad. Keep standing for truth (you know the truth of who you are) and I'm sure God will help you through this, whatever you decide. Whatever you decide to do, taking care of yourself is essential. And just living your life is going to change people. Maybe only a few, but if your life makes it even a tiny bit better for the next person, you've done a great work by letting Christ's love work through you.
Hypothetical situation you might want to run.
Hypothetically you have terminal cancer that has spread to every part of your body from the neck down.
A medical breakthrough will allow you to survive by having your brain transplanted to the body of a person who died of a brain haemorrhage. The only available donor happens to be of the opposite sex. (You are still TS by the way.)
Would it be a sin to go ahead with the operation?
If yes, why? how would it differ from any other transplant?
If not? What's the difference between this and having SRS to save you from a possible early death at one's own hand in despair?
Would the answers be different if you were NOT TS? If so why?
Karen. I always like asking the hard ones!! >:-)