This is the 2nd trans guy I've seen at my work. Whenever I'm around another trans guy I feel like less of a guy. I feel their more manlyier than me.
Has anyone else felt like this around other trans guys or it is just me?
I don't believe you are alone whatsoever.
I'm pretty sure most all men at some point have been around other men who were more masculine, and it may have caused them to question their own masculinity.
Life is not a contest about who is more masculine. Just be yourself. We are all guys.
Even bringing up the trans thing is you throwing an unnecessary wrench into it. I have met a trans guy who was pretty damn scary to me, like a biker type. Does that mean he is doubly awesome because he is trans and also really butch? Am I less of a cis man because a trans man out-masculined me? Would I like to be butcher like that guy? A little, quite honestly. It is human nature.
It is ok to be who you are. It is ok to sometimes want to be something else.
But it would not serve me well to spend a lot of time wishing to be more like this biker guy. I admire him for who he is, and I admire me for who I am.
Embrace your brotherhood, it is a pretty wonderful feeling.
You are not alone. At least with other men in general. I feel that way too when I'm around another guy that I like. If I don't like them or don't care than it doesn't matter to me. The problem comes in when I want them to like me. I feel like I have to go way out of my way to prove myself as a man.
Usually that manifests when combined with my insecurities as being blunt and almost rude. Basically an ->-bleeped-<- which no one wants to be around. For example, there was this guy that I really like. We have a lot in common and I would like to be his friend. Well he recently found out I was trans and it bewildered him but he hasn't been treating me differently. I'm the one who is acting differently unfortunately. He liked me before as a guy and he will like me again as a guy if I am not afraid to just be myself. Which is scary and hard actually. What a mess. :P
My concern is actually the opposite: I get worried about meeting trans guys who don't pass well.
I don't want to treat them different from any other guy, and I certainly don't want to use the wrong pronouns by accident.
If a trans guy is more 'manly' or passing well, it's easy for me.
Yes, I understand that. Even in the virtual world, when I was first exploring my gender and I saw so many very masculine transguys, I was jealous and intimidated. I felt like I couldn't be as male as them, not just in temperament, but because so many of them had naturally high T levels - mine are totally normal for a bio-female. Then, in real life - my ex is trans. He was passing before he came out, he builds muscle very quickly and essentially went through male puberty, voice drop included, because of his T levels. That masculinity made me really envious at first... I adjusted in the end, though. Even though he looks bio-male in my eyes, and I still look really female at times, he has his own concerns. We all have insecurities, regardless of how masculine we appear.
Seeing other transguys and feeling less manly is the very reason I completely avoid the "Do I Pass?" thread. I see guys that look just like that: guys. And it hurts to see them being picked apart about the things that make them fail to appear as men, because I know just how bad I would probably fail, and when I am presenting as male, I feel that I pass rather adequately. Even though you guys seek advice on how to be more passable, I could never do it.
"These guys obviously pass better than I do, why does everyone seem to find ways that they fail anyway?"
I guess it makes me self conscious and hyper aware of any faults I may have.
Usually it's biomales that out-man me.
But really that's something to get over, it's not a big deal. The transguys I've met so far have all been pretty cool and I've been pretty comfortable with them because of that.
Just don't be so nervous all the time, hell, I look like a 14 year old but I still get taken seriously enough. As long as you aren't in some sort of actual competition I guess. Casual social relationships aren't too focused on your build/appearance.
Quote from: Dominick_81 on December 22, 2010, 05:34:57 PM
This is the 2nd trans guy I've seen at my work. Whenever I'm around another trans guy I feel like less of a guy. I feel their more manlyier than me.
Has anyone else felt like this around other trans guys or it is just me?
I feel the same, only because my trans friend is straight and he looks sounds acts like a bio-male. He's pre-t, but no one believes that he's a transguy. A lot of ppl think he's mtf when he says hes trans. He has very masculine features, a deep voice, hes pretty hairy, he's about 5'8" and has big hands and feet. Im jealous :/
Quote from: Dominick_81 on December 22, 2010, 05:34:57 PM
This is the 2nd trans guy I've seen at my work. Whenever I'm around another trans guy I feel like less of a guy. I feel their more manlyier than me.
Has anyone else felt like this around other trans guys or it is just me?
Just be yourself man.......All of my male friends are straight and I am more manlyier than most of them(bigger...stronger). I get hit on by gay men all of the time.....total turn on. It's all about self confidence.......having pride in yourself.
nope.
Then again I haven't been around many trans guys that I knew were trans guys.
***pokes her nose into the thred***
I feel like that when I am around a beautiful transwoman.
It is just our insecurities surfacing. Not a pretty thing but it is what it is. Just work on it as well as you can.
depends what your definition of manly is? Lots of muscle? Lots of hair? Being bald? being confident? opening doors for women?
Around trans guys I don't feel out manned, cept I get jealous of the fact they have actual T running through their bodies :/. However if the clothes were to come off.. I would definately feel rather beat down in comparison them, because once it comes down to it I have a rather fem body under the clothes.
But the again if we aren't scaling on looks, but attributes, everyones different. I know girls that often act more manly then me, and I know bio guys that I am way more manly then.
Hi Dominick
I'm totally agree with bearded, just enjoy your manhood, it's not a competition you know.
Same thing with MTF, there are always girls who would be nicer, prettier, better voices and so on but that's not important, it's the way you feel and present yourselve.
so, don't compare, just be who you are and most important...be happy with who you are.
hugs
annette
Thanks for the replies.
Yeah, confidence is something I gota work on around other trans guys. But once I start T and start looking and passing as a guy I'll have more confidence.
I used to around the transguys I knew because they'd all been on T for at least a year before I started. It wasn't until I started branching out more that I realized there is always going to be someone 'further' along in transition and someone who 'hasn't come as far' (of course we don't all go the same route, the race is purely in our heads)
I agree I with one of the above posts where it's usually the bio guys that I feel out man me.I have never felt like that with other Transguys. I am a pretty manly guy and can be somewhat macho so it's usually me feeling more manly than them.
Constantly comparing yourself with other people is really a lousy way to go though life.
Quote from: tekla on January 07, 2011, 03:20:12 AM
Constantly comparing yourself with other people is really a lousy way to go though life.
ummm no
It is a standard issue state of humanity.
If we do not at least fit in to some extant we are othered worse than we already are.
Comparing and judging is normal, human and part of the system.
Quote from: Yakshini on December 23, 2010, 01:42:33 AM
Seeing other transguys and feeling less manly is the very reason I completely avoid the "Do I Pass?" thread. I see guys that look just like that: guys. And it hurts to see them being picked apart about the things that make them fail to appear as men, because I know just how bad I would probably fail, and when I am presenting as male, I feel that I pass rather adequately. Even though you guys seek advice on how to be more passable, I could never do it.
"These guys obviously pass better than I do, why does everyone seem to find ways that they fail anyway?"
I guess it makes me self conscious and hyper aware of any faults I may have.
I feel the same way...veiwing that thread makes me super self conscious and then kinda depressed bc I don't pass...
I try not to compare myself, but sometimes I just can't help it.
I don't know any other trans guys, so I don't compare to them, but I sure compare myself with cis guys.
And it makes me feel really dysphoric, like I'll never be manly enough like them
But I just try to focus on something else.
What does cis stand for?
That's how I feel around other trans guy, I feel I'm not manly enough.
Quote from: Dominick_81 on January 07, 2011, 12:40:03 PM
What does cis stand for?
That's how I feel around other trans guy, I feel I'm not manly enough.
not 100% sure but I believe it means "same"
I just know that in chemistry a cis conformation has the same atoms on the same side and in a trans confirmation they're opposite. Makes sense to me that cis-gendered people are the same gender as the sex they were born into and that trans-gendered people are the opposite. I think its a dumb term though.
What does cis stand for
It just give the ability for those that use it to toss everyone who is not one of them into one huge group that they then can treat as 'the other.' Its a way of diminishing other people really.
ic. Thanks guys.
I have heard two diferant origens of CIS
First already mentioned is a latin/chemistry term.
The other is that it is Comfortable In Skin.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes around other trans people I feel inferior, because I don't pass as well, and I'm jealous of the T. But I still really like being around people like me. Community, ya know.
I know one transman. Being around him is nice because he knows what it's like. Plus he's post T and he's had chest surgery so I can get tons of advise from him. For me, it's just easier to talk to him about everything.
I wouldn't know about not passing as well though because I'm pre everything. Perhaps, once I start T that would be a problem but as of now, it's not.
Sometimes I get uncomfortable around the transguys because I have some social issues so it seems like they all group up and I feel a little left out even when they try to include me but as far as feeling less manly, I don't
Both trans men and non-trans men struggle with not being manly enough. It's part of a patriarchal system of oppression. Men are raised to believe there is only so much masculinity to go around and everyone is out to see who can get the most, thus masculinity is always imperiled or in crisis. That is why men emasculate each other. By calling one man a wimp or a pussy, you are stripping some of their masculinity for yourself which is part of a larger system of power and control. It's all socially constructed. Instead of looking at another guy's masculinity look at your own and ask yourself, is it enough for me?
I struggle with not being masculine/male enough. But it helps put it all in perspective when I am able to understand how masculinity/femininity/gender is socially constructed... and therapy helps too :)
Quote from: kadin on January 08, 2011, 09:00:47 PM
Both trans men and non-trans men struggle with not being manly enough.
Maybe that's why I feel more comfortable around women...because I know I'm the manliest in the group lol. Hanging around with guys, trans or not, I have trouble feeling masculine. Especially like when I go to say something and it's a female voice that comes out. :/
Quote from: kadin on January 08, 2011, 09:00:47 PM
Both trans men and non-trans men struggle with not being manly enough. It's part of a patriarchal system of oppression. Men are raised to believe there is only so much masculinity to go around and everyone is out to see who can get the most, thus masculinity is always imperiled or in crisis. That is why men emasculate each other. By calling one man a wimp or a pussy, you are stripping some of their masculinity for yourself which is part of a larger system of power and control. It's all socially constructed. Instead of looking at another guy's masculinity look at your own and ask yourself, is it enough for me?
Well said.
Actually I had a transguy friend years before I came to my realization and he was always really open about who he is and everything, so I have always been comfortable and followed his example. I felt uncomfortable for about five minutes but just talking about it with him cleared that up.
Quote from: Dominick_81 on January 07, 2011, 12:40:03 PM
What does cis stand for?
In science, we use this prefix to refer to a organic chemical who's carbon chain is linear. When struck with a photon, some chemicals will absorb that energy into a location on the chain, resulting in a 'kink.' The process is sometimes called photoisomerization (the word means "light causes a change to a similar chemical.") The photoisomerization of a biochemical called 11-retinal, which is the dark pigment in the pupil of your eye, is the basis of vision: a photon strikes a linear cis-11-retinal and folds it into a kinked trans-11-retinal, and the nearby proteins register the event.
More generally, 'cis-' means 'rigid,' 'linear,' 'on a single plane,' and is derived from the older parlance, 'nearby.' It is used only in chemistry, not in common parlance. In Latin, it means 'on this side of' or 'on the near side' and 'trans-' means 'across.' Basically, some graduate of our nation's fine liberal arts institutions leafed through the dictionary in search of an antonym to 'trans-.' (Honestly, when someone says 'cis-male,' I think of a man with a degenerative bone disease, all joints fused, on life support.)
As for comparison to other transmen, I can only offer the equivalent position from the perspective of biological males: we judge each other largely on character and ability; a marine is respected for combat skill and physical discipline (and we admire them), whereas a scientist is respected for mathematical skill and knowledge of his field (and we are also admired), and all men are admired for integrity. As Bearded and Tekla have said, you're not in competition; show professional skill and good character, and we'll respect that.
Quote from: kadin on January 08, 2011, 09:00:47 PM
It's part of a patriarchal system of oppression.
As a general warning for those who wish to mingle with biological males, feminist political philosophy and related hate-speech tend to result in permanent ostracism.
- N
Quote from: jmaxley on January 08, 2011, 10:12:11 PM
Maybe that's why I feel more comfortable around women...because I know I'm the manliest in the group lol. Hanging around with guys, trans or not, I have trouble feeling masculine. Especially like when I go to say something and it's a female voice that comes out. :/
It's weird because I actually feel the same way. Usually, I'm more comfortable around girls then I am around guys. I have a few guy friends but that's because I've known them my whole life so I'm more comfortable around them.
sean,
i feel exactly the same way dude!
wen i went to a trans camp ther wer sum ftms that were not passing well,
so pronouns were realy hard.