So to say things were rocky today would be an exceptional understatement... When I woke up today Dan had already been out of bed for a while, playing on his laptop downstairs. When I went downstairs and tried to talk to him he was being very short with me. I asked him what was wrong and he said his usual: "Nothing".
I continued to sit in the living room because I didn't feel like going back upstairs and I had to wait for the water to heat back up since I had heard both of my friends running the shower before I headed downstairs. After a bit my male friend came downstairs to say hello and head into the kitchen, my female friend came down a while after that. In the meantime just as I was about to get up and go shower Dan decided to. I had avoided saying anything further to him while my friends were downstairs just because I don't like to cause a scene and I try to keep private stuff private. I sat there for a few minutes then decided to go upstairs and try to talk to him.
We have a big counter in the bathroom so I sat on it and started to talk. I asked him what was wrong, why he had been being so moody the past few days, and whether there was anything I could do to help. He refused to talk to me and was still being quite short. I, being the overly emotional person I am, started to cry and just proceeded to get more and more upset. I asked him if he wanted to be with me because he has been pushing me away for the past week or so and being more distant than usual. In my experience those things are never an indicator of anything good. I then asked him if he was sure about us, and if he still didn't know whether he wants to transition or not... I asked this because the other night when he came home he choose one of the feminine sets of pajamas to sleep in which he usually does when he is anxious or upset.
He then told me that he does want to start HRT and that he was ending the relationship. He looked so angry and just hearing him say that hurt more than anything, I started to cry even harder... Thankfully my friends were headed out for dinner so they didn't hear us fighting. I asked him if he was sure that is how he felt, and he said yes. I left the bathroom so that he could get dried off and go get dressed. When I walked back into the bedroom a few minutes later I asked him why he lied to me before we moved, why he decided to move in here instead of taking the money he had to rent somewhere else. He basically told me that he was trying to make things work between us and that he wasn't 100% sure that he wanted to start HRT, but that if he wanted that option on the table I wasn't allowing it. He told me that he doesn't know what he wants out of life, and that he loves me more than anything, but that he can't pretend that he is happy when he doesn't know what he wants.
I couldn't stop crying and my chest was so tight it felt like I was going to suffocate... I went into the bathroom and locked the door so that I could just cry in the shower without being interrupted... I felt so helpless, and I loathe feeling that way. When I came out of the shower I asked him to talk upstairs. He agreed to and we sat on the bed. I asked him if he was upset, what he planned to do, etc. When he answered me he told me that he was upset, that he didn't want to leave me but that he doesn't want to keep hurting me which he feels is inevitable. He has no money saved up so he can't afford to move anywhere let alone see another psychiatrist to pursue getting his HRT letters.
I asked him again, what he sees in his future, whether he wants children, etc. He told me he doesn't know, that he isn't sure if he wants kids, and that he doesn't know what he wants to do ultimately. He said he hasn't thought about any of that. I told him that he needs to think about that stuff. I don't care if you are gay, straight, trans, cis, whathaveyou, you ought to have some inclination of what you want out of life. Dan NEVER wants to think about anything more than what he might consider doing that day. It drives me batty and I keep telling him that his therapist now, and any other one he might see want to know what he sees himself doing and what they want before they give him the go ahead for HRT.
I know I am leaving a bunch out but I can barely think straight right now and I can't stop shaking which makes it difficult to concentrate and type. I don't know where we are or if we are going to be okay... I feel so sick and my heart is aching uncontrollably.
I will try to fill in the rest of this when I calm down a bit... I just had to get some of this off my chest.
I am so sorry this is happening.
I hope that you can iron this out.
:icon_hug:
I am so sorry Jacquelyn. It is so hard when the ones we love pull away and says they want out. That is what happened with my wife. I am sitting here in bed right now breaking down as it is my last week with her and my son as I am now. We will be divorced soon and things will be different.
My gut is telling me he is not telling you something. Maybe he wants out just because he wants the freedom to explore all aspects of a new identity. Or maybe he has an idea of what he wants and he is afraid to verbalize it because it doesn't include you. In any case, the rejection hurts like nothing else. Please know that someone else knows exactly how you feel and is sending good thoughts your way.
Would it be possible to go to a therapy session with him?
Jacquelyn,
I am so sorry to hear that you are having problems. If you can you need to get him to open up, if not to you then to a therapist. He is in a bad place and it will only wind up hurting you both.
You do have a family here and we care about you and we care about him. Hang in there, Hon.
Quote from: Melody on January 09, 2011, 10:16:40 PM
I am so sorry Jacquelyn. It is so hard when the ones we love pull away and says they want out. That is what happened with my wife. I am sitting here in bed right now breaking down as it is my last week with her and my son as I am now. We will be divorced soon and things will be different.
My gut is telling me he is not telling you something. Maybe he wants out just because he wants the freedom to explore all aspects of a new identity. Or maybe he has an idea of what he wants and he is afraid to verbalize it because it doesn't include you. In any case, the rejection hurts like nothing else. Please know that someone else knows exactly how you feel and is sending good thoughts your way.
Would it be possible to go to a therapy session with him?
Thank you Cynthialee.
And Melody, I have gone with him previously to his sessions. He is seeing a MTF therapist. She is exceptionally kind and understanding. She also thinks that Dan is being somewhat reserved and not being 100% honest with his answers, which is why I keep telling him that he won't be able to start HRT if he doesn't take the time to consider what he wants in life.
I feel as though he isn't being completely honest with me and it kills me. He got very upset when we were talking and I told him that by pushing me away he will have succeeded at pushing away everyone that cares about him. I know that sounds harsh, but he does. He has pushed almost everyone in his family away. He doesn't tend to answer their texts or calls (including the other day when his brother called to tell him his nephew was born, which I figured that would be why he was calling at 6am!) and we only see them once in a bluemoon. He is terribly afraid of failing them, which I feel bad for, but I have never set those standards for him. I am still here after he came out to me and I am TRYING to make it work. I have come to accept many things and I have encouraged him to go to therapy, to dress how he feels comfortable (I have bought him a few things that he requested, but he only ever dresses at home), I have given him pedicures and facials and anything else he might ask for... I am just stuck at the point that I want a family... I love him so much that I don't know what to do with myself.
I have told him that I would consider forsaking children if that meant for nothing else that I at least have him... I just don't know what to do. I can't stop crying still and I am scared that he isn't going to try to let me help him work things out.
I remember your first post and the messages following it on the thread. I read them to Dan, and I can honestly say I cried as I did. I am sorry your wife isn't willing to stay, and I am sorry your son reacted how he did. I hate the thought that I would have to be away from my SO, and I don't wish that pain upon anyone else here at Susan's or in any other place. I hate that he is balking in our relationship and I don't know what I can say to help him through this...
Quote from: Janet Lynn on January 09, 2011, 10:41:26 PM
Jacquelyn,
I am so sorry to hear that you are having problems. If you can you need to get him to open up, if not to you then to a therapist. He is in a bad place and it will only wind up hurting you both.
You do have a family here and we care about you and we care about him. Hang in there, Hon.
Thank you Janet. I have tried to get him to open up to me about this, but he is so stubborn, and sure that I am going to judge him. I know that he is doing it to protect himself, but I have never said a single thing to put him down in regards to his TG. I have tried to educate myself, and to talk to him to figure things out.
He has an appointment on Friday with his therapist... I am not sure if he wants me to go or not. I just feel like everything is falling apart this week.
I am glad that you are all so wonderful here because I don't know what I would do without you. Thank you for your never ending kindness, it means the world to me.
Wow, it never occured to me that someone would take the time to read my posts to another, let alone cry over them. Thank you and I hope it helped both of you in some small measure.
It sounds to me like Dan is still in denial. Despite coming out to you, it is almost as if he isn't fully free. After a lifetime of being moody and closed off, after I came out to friends and family, I was just the opposite. You can't get me to shutup about my experiences and feelings nowadays. It doesn't sound like he has had the epiphany.
He is very, very lucky to have you. It sounds like he is repeating his habit of pushing people away with you, but he needs you more than he knows, so try to hang in there. I am rooting for both if you.
I don't know what to think of where we are now, or what he wants at this point in time. I have never been one to give up when things get tough, and he knows that. I have never had an easy life, my father and step mother are drug addicts and alcoholics, and my step father is addicted to prescription pills, while my mother is clinically depressed.
Reading your posts and others here at Susan's helped me from throwing in the towel, part of me wasn't willing to deal with anything out of the ordinary. I have always hoped to find a stable and normal relationship, but as I have gotten older I have realized that my fictional idea of what is normal is actually pretty abnormal.
Your posts did help me, and I think that they caused him to take a second to think about what he wants. I just don't think anything has sunk in for him at this point... He is scared of making that commitment.
I am going to try to talk to him some more... I think he is headed upstairs now, I hear him trying to coax the dog up the stairs for bed.
Thank you for rooting for us, we could use all the help we can get.
Hugs,
Jackie
Quote from: Jacquelyn on January 09, 2011, 11:03:52 PM
I don't know what to think of where we are now, or what he wants at this point in time. I have never been one to give up when things get tough, and he knows that. I have never had an easy life, my father and step mother are drug addicts and alcoholics, and my step father is addicted to prescription pills, while my mother is clinically depressed.
Reading your posts and others here at Susan's helped me from throwing in the towel, part of me wasn't willing to deal with anything out of the ordinary. I have always hoped to find a stable and normal relationship, but as I have gotten older I have realized that my fictional idea of what is normal is actually pretty abnormal.
Your posts did help me, and I think that they caused him to take a second to think about what he wants. I just don't think anything has sunk in for him at this point... He is scared of making that commitment.
I am going to try to talk to him some more... I think he is headed upstairs now, I hear him trying to coax the dog up the stairs for bed.
Thank you for rooting for us, we could use all the help we can get.
Hugs,
Jackie
All I can say is that I am honored and happy that something positive has come from my experience.
Scared, yes that sounds about right. If you can forgive me for injecting a bit of religion, my pastor gave a sermon last week where he basically said that significant change often requires that the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of changing. I only became brave enough to pursue transition when I realized I was not going to survive much longer as I was. Janet actually has the following in her signature line:
"It does not take bravery to transition. It takes fear. The fear of spending one more day in the wrong gender. - Janet"
I suppose Dan hasn't quite gotten to that point yet. Good luck.
Hi Jackie,
You know where I am if you need to contact me.
Melody you are looking gorgeous girl.
Cindy
A crack squad of hugs are currently winging their way to you hun.
I'll be honest now, i've been in the same sort of place...except I never told my ex, but the habits of secrecy and bottling things up contributed to our break up (there was other stuff going on, but the fact that i wouldn't talk about being TS meant i found it near impossible to open up about all the other stuff. Dan really does need to learn to be honest...not only is it personally liberating, it'll give your relationship the fighting chance you want. I would say this is as much a relationship issue as it is about Dan being TG, it may be worth considering seeing a relationship counsellor. I did it with my ex, and while i did use it to say the stuff i'd bottled up for 7 years, it got it out in the open, and once we'd started tearing strips off each other we were actually able to start building our friendship up...we're still friends now and see each other every so often. So it does help.
Jaquelyn
I'll try to be fairly brief for once.
I am so sorry that this is happening and I know just how painful it is, but at the same time I think that one thing you need to accept is that for most of us the truth is we can't know what we want from life because whether we admit it to ourselves or not the truth is that becoming our true selves is of OVERIDING importance and everything else kind of goes on hold until that issue has been addressed and settled.
It's difficult I know, but my sense from reading Eve-of-chaos's posts is that HRT and at least experimenting with transition ARE inevitable sooner or later - and therefore the best thing that you can do is to help that to happen sooner. If it is wrong I assure you that it will stop pretty quickly because it isn't an easy road, and anyone for whom it does not swiftly start to deliver peace of mind will therefore almost certainly abandon the attempt. Even so the attempt often has to be made to find out the truth.
The very worst thing you can do, both for yourself and Dan, is to try and stop this experiment. Believe me it's like standing in the path of a Truck - there can be only one outcome to that. Please do both of you a favor and let him find out the truth while he is still young enough to have the possibility of making a good transition. Many are held back by love for partners, the truth is that often all that either partner ends up with is bitterness and regret for lost time, and I would hate for either of you to get hurt like that.
EDIT - Please understand that I don't want to tell you this, because I can imagine how painful it must be, and believe me, right now, I would do anything to be able to offer you better news - but the truth is the truth and you both need to face it now.
Quote from: Melody on January 09, 2011, 11:16:07 PM
All I can say is that I am honored and happy that something positive has come from my experience.
Scared, yes that sounds about right. If you can forgive me for injecting a bit of religion, my pastor gave a sermon last week where he basically said that significant change often requires that the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of changing. I only became brave enough to pursue transition when I realized I was not going to survive much longer as I was. Janet actually has the following in her signature line:
"It does not take bravery to transition. It takes fear. The fear of spending one more day in the wrong gender. - Janet"
I suppose Dan hasn't quite gotten to that point yet. Good luck.
That is not a problem at all. I think that one of the biggest problems Dan has is that he has no direction; spiritually, mentally, and emotionally he is at a standstill. As much as I want to help him break out of that, whether it is to realize that he does want to pursue transition, or whether he has other issues to work out, I can't do that without him working with me.
Quote from: Helena on January 10, 2011, 11:41:16 AM
A crack squad of hugs are currently winging their way to you hun.
I'll be honest now, i've been in the same sort of place...except I never told my ex, but the habits of secrecy and bottling things up contributed to our break up (there was other stuff going on, but the fact that i wouldn't talk about being TS meant i found it near impossible to open up about all the other stuff. Dan really does need to learn to be honest...not only is it personally liberating, it'll give your relationship the fighting chance you want. I would say this is as much a relationship issue as it is about Dan being TG, it may be worth considering seeing a relationship counsellor. I did it with my ex, and while i did use it to say the stuff i'd bottled up for 7 years, it got it out in the open, and once we'd started tearing strips off each other we were actually able to start building our friendship up...we're still friends now and see each other every so often. So it does help.
Thank you Helena, I don't know what I would do if I was trying to get by through this on my own... We were seeing a relationship counselor and should have been seeing her Friday... I don't know if he will want me to go.
Last night we talked some more, and I asked him if he was willing to give up children. I guess I can do without an official type of marriage, but I still want biological children. He told me he wasn't sure, but that he still wanted to give me the wedding I've always wanted. He said he wants to buy be a ring and have a wedding day, but no one would have to know it was fake. Those words stabbed at me. I don't want anything about our relationship to be fake or artificial. My wedding day, to me, is the day that I publicly give my entire self (spiritual, physical, emotional) to my partner. I just have a difficult time minimizing that and picturing Dan as anything less than that.
I called him an hour or so ago to tell him that instead of bringing lunch to him I would bring him dinner. He was short and cross with me telling me he was going to his friends after work to help him work on his car and then heading straight to school from there. I said that was fine, and told him I loved him. He only responded 'okay'. One word. Two syllables. How can that hurt so bad? We hung up and I sent him a text asking what that was about. His response was. "I do love you. I just think it would be best if we both moved on."
I won't lie, I turned to tears again and called him back. He didn't answer so I just lay on my bed and cried. He called me back a few minutes later and told me he is tired of fighting all the time (I could hear his friends in the background). He is not out to any of them, and with the exception of the friends we live with (who both know), my aunt, and his mother (who probably assumed it was just a phase when he came out to her), I am the only person who knows and actively tries to support him. He has made it out to his friends like we fight over mundane things all the time. We do once in a while, but who doesn't? Honestly, I do get upset when he comes home and doesn't even want to cuddle at night. He always says he is too tired, but so am I. I was working 40 hours a week at my office job, plus coaching high school speech and debate on most weekends, taking care of the animals, and getting all of the household chores done. Sure, I would get home at 6pm some nights and I would want nothing more than to crawl into bed, but he needs his work clothes and if they aren't clean I would make sure they were so he would have them in the morning. The only thing he is typically responsible for when he gets home is taking off his boots and throwing them in the closet so that no one trips over the boats, getting a shower, and (not very likely) throwing his dirty clothes into the hamper.
I just don't know where to go from here... I feel physically sick. I am tired of him hiding things from me, and I am tired of feeling like I should be on the tip of my toes waiting for the next thing to happen. I left him a voicemail and asked him to call me back before his lunch break is over, but I doubt he will. I don't know if he is coming home tonight... I asked him and he said he didn't know yet. If he does it won't be for another 10 hours and I don't know what to do to kill that time without wanting to off myself in the process.
I have contemplated calling my Aunt and talking to her about moving out to Indiana... I don't know anyone out there but her and her husband (and some of his family). I don't have a job to leave behind right now, I don't have anything as far as I can see.
All I know is that there is nothing quite like being told that you are unwanted by someone you love. It is the nastiest feeling I have ever experienced and I hate him for making me feel this way when all I want to do it to love him and make him happy. Where do I even try to go from here?
Quote from: rejennyrated on January 10, 2011, 12:02:49 PM
Jaquelyn
I'll try to be fairly brief for once.
I am so sorry that this is happening and I know just how painful it is, but at the same time I think that one thing you need to accept is that for most of us the truth is we can't know what we want from life because whether we admit it to ourselves or not the truth is that becoming our true selves is of OVERIDING importance and everything else kind of goes on hold until that issue has been addressed and settled.
It's difficult I know, but my sense from reading Eve-of-chaos's posts is that HRT and at least experimenting with transition ARE inevitable sooner or later - and therefore the best thing that you can do is to help that to happen sooner. If it is wrong I assure you that it will stop pretty quickly because it isn't an easy road, and anyone for whom it does not swiftly start to deliver peace of mind will therefore almost certainly abandon the attempt. Even so the attempt often has to be made to find out the truth.
The very worst thing you can do, both for yourself and Dan, is to try and stop this experiment. Believe me it's like standing in the path of a Truck - there can be only one outcome to that. Please do both of you a favor and let him find out the truth while he is still young enough to have the possibility of making a good transition. Many are held back by love for partners, the truth is that often all that either partner ends up with is bitterness and regret for lost time, and I would hate for either of you to get hurt like that.
Jenny,
I do understand what you are saying. My only fear is that Dan has other demons to put to rest besides transition that are getting lost in the process. I know he has other issues to work through, but he doesn't want to talk about them with me or with his therapist. I feel as though he is throwing away any chance of us being together (through transition or not...) because he is afraid I will actually stick around. I know him better than anyone, and I don't tend to let him pussyfoot around subjects that make him a little uncomfortable.
Is him starting HRT ideal for the life I had imagined we would have? No.
Would I leave after the first time he pops a pill of E? No.
Can I promise that I would stay indefinitely once he starts to change? No.
However, no one can guarantee that their relationship is going to last forever, whether they be gay, straight, trans, or cis. It doesn't work that way. People change as they mature and that is something that can't be stopped.
I told him last night that it would be downright stupid of me to leave right now considering I was still here after the initial tell and we had been working through things pretty well til this point.
I just don't know what to do now, and more than I have ever wanted anything in my life, I wish I did.
Quote from: Jacquelyn on January 10, 2011, 12:04:31 PM
I said that was fine, and told him I loved him. He only responded 'okay'. One word. Two syllables. How can that hurt so bad? We hung up and I sent him a text asking what that was about. His response was. "I do love you. I just think it would be best if we both moved on."
I won't lie, I turned to tears again and called him back. He didn't answer so I just lay on my bed and cried. He called me back a few minutes later and told me he is tired of fighting all the time (I could hear his friends in the background). He is not out to any of them, and with the exception of the friends we live with (who both know), my aunt, and his mother (who probably assumed it was just a phase when he came out to her), I am the only person who knows and actively tries to support him. He has made it out to his friends like we fight over mundane things all the time. We do once in a while, but who doesn't? Honestly, I do get upset when he comes home and doesn't even want to cuddle at night. He always says he is too tired, but so am I. I was working 40 hours a week at my office job, plus coaching high school speech and debate on most weekends, taking care of the animals, and getting all of the household chores done. Sure, I would get home at 6pm some nights and I would want nothing more than to crawl into bed, but he needs his work clothes and if they aren't clean I would make sure they were so he would have them in the morning. The only thing he is typically responsible for when he gets home is taking off his boots and throwing them in the closet so that no one trips over the boats, getting a shower, and (not very likely) throwing his dirty clothes into the hamper.
I just don't know where to go from here... I feel physically sick. I am tired of him hiding things from me, and I am tired of feeling like I should be on the tip of my toes waiting for the next thing to happen. I left him a voicemail and asked him to call me back before his lunch break is over, but I doubt he will. I don't know if he is coming home tonight... I asked him and he said he didn't know yet. If he does it won't be for another 10 hours and I don't know what to do to kill that time without wanting to off myself in the process.
I have contemplated calling my Aunt and talking to her about moving out to Indiana... I don't know anyone out there but her and her husband (and some of his family). I don't have a job to leave behind right now, I don't have anything as far as I can see.
All I know is that there is nothing quite like being told that you are unwanted by someone you love. It is the nastiest feeling I have ever experienced and I hate him for making me feel this way when all I want to do it to love him and make him happy. Where do I even try to go from here?
The day my ex turned round and said "I know" when i said I loved her tore my hear in two, so i know exactly how you feel.
Now that i've put two and two together (thanks to jenny's post) I'd have to say i agree with what she says. There has been a
lot of emotional conflict in Dan's posts, I think Jenny is right, the desire to at the very least experiment with transition is there and i think once the internal conflicts are levelled out it'll be a no brainer. I think Dan might be at the stage of knowing that she's a woman, but feels that she doesn't want to be a "fake" woman...if that makes sense. All that ends up happening is that one day you wake up and realise that the life that you've been living in your assigned gender is more fake than you life should you transition. It also sounds like Dan is trying to protect you from what she sees as inevitable hurt.
Now may be the time to sit down and really think what you want...I know you love Dan, that's plain enough to see by your words, but you may honestly be approaching the point where you'll have to decide whether you can both find a way to make things work or if you take a step back and support Dan as her friend. My suspicion is that Dan is projecting her fears of what will happen in the future and the fact that she might hurt you onto the relationship. Wanting to end it may sound cold but i suspect the motivation behind it is love.
The biggest and best thing you can do right now is talk...tear strips of each other if you have to, bawl your eyes out, hug and make up...but talk.
I hope you do sort this out Jacquelyn, you are a genuinely warm and open hearted person and you've shared so many of your fears with us.
big hug
Helena x
Quote from: Jacquelyn on January 10, 2011, 12:13:08 PM
Jenny,
I do understand what you are saying. My only fear is that Dan has other demons to put to rest besides transition that are getting lost in the process. I know he has other issues to work through, but he doesn't want to talk about them with me or with his therapist. I feel as though he is throwing away any chance of us being together (through transition or not...) because he is afraid I will actually stick around. I know him better than anyone, and I don't tend to let him pussyfoot around subjects that make him a little uncomfortable.
Is him starting HRT ideal for the life I had imagined we would have? No.
Would I leave after the first time he pops a pill of E? No.
Can I promise that I would stay indefinitely once he starts to change? No.
However, no one can guarantee that their relationship is going to last forever, whether they be gay, straight, trans, or cis. It doesn't work that way. People change as they mature and that is something that can't be stopped.
I told him last night that it would be downright stupid of me to leave right now considering I was still here after the initial tell and we had been working through things pretty well til this point.
I just don't know what to do now, and more than I have ever wanted anything in my life, I wish I did.
Yeah I hear you loud and clear.
As regards other issues sometimes we have to deal with them first - other times we can only find the strength to face those demons once we have started to become our true selves, and anyway any gender counselor worth their salt will find those other issues and will insist on them being worked through. So don't worry, it will all work out in the end.
Jackie, I can understand how you are feeling right now. And I can see the other side, because I have been there. That is not that I agree or even condone how he is handling it.
For 54 years and three marriage, I also hide and would not let anyone in. Even my last wife, who knew about my GID, was never really let in. If she had been more accepting we might still be together. It is hard to get past that feeling of not letting people in. He needs to see that you are right there, saying we can do this together. So many of us never get to have that special person, who is there for us.
Even if things did not work out between you two, he could look back and say that Jackie really was a very big support. It is hard to love someone and they just can't get pass that feeling that they will lose you. But by doing what he is doing now, isn't doing much for his self esteem. You are a sweet lady, Jackie, and you deserve the very best.
I can see the truth behind what each of you has said, and I thank you so much for being there for me when I need it the most. It is not going to be easy, and I know that... I sent him an e-mail and I can only hope that he reads it and can perhaps find it within himself to come home, if only to talk...
My Love,
Of all of the things I would like to do, I wish I could make you see how much you mean to me. Please don't push me away. Let me try to work through this with you. I am not going to run away screaming when you start HRT. I am sorry that things haven't been picturesque, but are they ever?
Please come home tonight. You belong here. All I want is to give you a kiss on the forehead and hold you close. You are the most important thing in my life, and I am not being dramatic in saying there is nothing I wouldn't do for you, Daniel. I love you, and I hope that we can work through this. You deserve the world, and I want to be the one to give you that.
There is nothing that can make me minimize the feelings I have for you, that I have had for you, that I will always have for you.
What I said this morning is stupid, I was still half asleep. I can't picture you any other way because I have yet to see you any other way. I am sure that I can be flexible because that's what love does.
I love you, Daniel. Always and forever...
See you tonight?
I guess the ball is in his court.... I can't force him to come home, I can't make him love me if he doesn't. I don't see his TG as something that is going to fade away into nothingness. The first thing I did after he came out and I was able to stop crying enough to legibly type in a google search was find this site. At first I looked around, then I finally came around to making my first posts. In reading all of your stories, speaking privately with some of you, and learning what it feels like to be in your shoes there is nothing that can make me want to leave him.
Love is love. I didn't ask to fall in love with Dan, I just did. As I said before, I couldn't promise you that we would be together FOREVER even if he wasn't TS. Would I like that to be the case (that we would be together, not that his TS didn't exist)? Absolutely. But nothing is guaranteed.
If he walks away I don't know if I could let him back in no matter what he does in the end... I am more hurt right now than I can ever remember being, and I have some atrocious memories and experiences that come to mind.
I would give you each a hug right now if I could. You are my saving grace. I have been severely depressed in teh past and I would be lying if I didn't say I was on edge right now. If I didn't have the support that you all have given me I probably would have given up in October.
If he comes home tonight I will ask him to look over this thread. I want him to see that I am not planning on running out the door. I want him to understand that things are never absolute, but that I am willing to take this leap of faith as long as he is by my side.
Love and teary hugs to all of you,
I will never be able to express my gratitude enough...
Jackie
Quote from: rejennyrated on January 10, 2011, 12:54:21 PM
As regards other issues sometimes we have to deal with them first - other times we can only find the strength to face those demons once we have started to become our true selves, and anyway any gender counselor worth their salt will find those other issues and will insist on them being worked through. So don't worry, it will all work out in the end.
I agree with this - it's not reasonable to expect someone to have dealt with every issue prior to a major life change of any type. Who would get married if they needed to work out all their own issues first? Certainly, if there are things that make relationships dysfunctional, interfere with other key aspects of life, etc, they need to be dealt with (and it's fair to insist upon dealing with things that impact a marriage) - but to say they need to be dealt with first, I'm not so sure. I think a lot of these can be worked out together, because, often, they are related to each other. They don't necessarily need to be worked on one at a time.
As for the original poster, I'd say that it sounds as if your spouse is likely to go through with this, yet I'm hearing (maybe not accurately) in your posts that you want your spouse to stay as the person you believed you married, a man. And I get the feeling you're hoping that as your spouse works out these issues, that your spouse will decide that it was immature/irresponsible/uninformed/impulsive/etc to want to transition. Very few people who start to transition change their minds later - it's remarkable at how reliable people's initial perception of their sex is when it comes to long term desires. This is true even of people with lots of other issues. I'd also echo that no reputable therapist or doctor will prescribe HRT without being relatively sure of things - in fact, I'm amazed at how many hoops people who are transitioning must jump through to be the person they are, when very few other people making really big decisions have to do nearly as much.
The question that I think is relevant to the original poster is this: Are you willing to accept your spouse's view of themself, if your spouse decides to begin HRT and other transitioning? Likely, this will mean a new name, new pronouns, etc. If you want to stay together, and you can accept this, then you should tell your spouse this - that if your spouse sees themself as female, you are glad to see *her* that way. If your spouse sees themself as female, but doesn't think you will accept that, of course your spouse will leave - just as you would leave if your spouse insisted on acting as if you were a man! Having faith that the spouse will accept a decision will encourage honesty because they won't have to lose something to be honest. But to have that faith, it's important to know where the other person stands.
If you can't see yourself willing to accept your spouse as "her" when your spouse starts transitioning, it might not be the right relationship. I hope that's not the case, and I hope the two of you can find a way forward, albeit a path that is not as straight as many other couples walk. I know I would feel very lost if I thought I might lose my spouse, so I'll be praying that you both can find the path.
(apologies to all on pronouns - it's really hard for me to know what pronouns to use in this situation, as I don't know how the spouse who isn't here would see themself)
Quote from: Slanan on January 10, 2011, 02:09:31 PM
I agree with this - it's not reasonable to expect someone to have dealt with every issue prior to a major life change of any type. Who would get married if they needed to work out all their own issues first? Certainly, if there are things that make relationships dysfunctional, interfere with other key aspects of life, etc, they need to be dealt with (and it's fair to insist upon dealing with things that impact a marriage) - but to say they need to be dealt with first, I'm not so sure. I think a lot of these can be worked out together, because, often, they are related to each other. They don't necessarily need to be worked on one at a time.
As for the original poster, I'd say that it sounds as if your spouse is likely to go through with this, yet I'm hearing (maybe not accurately) in your posts that you want your spouse to stay as the person you believed you married, a man. And I get the feeling you're hoping that as your spouse works out these issues, that your spouse will decide that it was immature/irresponsible/uninformed/impulsive/etc to want to transition. Very few people who start to transition change their minds later - it's remarkable at how reliable people's initial perception of their sex is when it comes to long term desires. This is true even of people with lots of other issues. I'd also echo that no reputable therapist or doctor will prescribe HRT without being relatively sure of things - in fact, I'm amazed at how many hoops people who are transitioning must jump through to be the person they are, when very few other people making really big decisions have to do nearly as much.
The question that I think is relevant to the original poster is this: Are you willing to accept your spouse's view of themself, if your spouse decides to begin HRT and other transitioning? Likely, this will mean a new name, new pronouns, etc. If you want to stay together, and you can accept this, then you should tell your spouse this - that if your spouse sees themself as female, you are glad to see *her* that way. If your spouse sees themself as female, but doesn't think you will accept that, of course your spouse will leave - just as you would leave if your spouse insisted on acting as if you were a man! Having faith that the spouse will accept a decision will encourage honesty because they won't have to lose something to be honest. But to have that faith, it's important to know where the other person stands.
If you can't see yourself willing to accept your spouse as "her" when your spouse starts transitioning, it might not be the right relationship. I hope that's not the case, and I hope the two of you can find a way forward, albeit a path that is not as straight as many other couples walk. I know I would feel very lost if I thought I might lose my spouse, so I'll be praying that you both can find the path.
(apologies to all on pronouns - it's really hard for me to know what pronouns to use in this situation, as I don't know how the spouse who isn't here would see themself)
Dan is my boyfriend. We have been living together for almost two years, and up until October had been planning an engagement (sometime this coming spring), and had been working towards a shared life. He has asked that I don't refer to him with feminine pronouns.
Since he came out to me I have been struggling with certain things, but I have been working to inform myself and help him to make whatever decisions he needs to make in life. He is now seeing a gender therapist as I encouraged him to go. I did not run for the hills when he came out to me, and I don't intend to anytime soon. I did say that I would prefer that neither of us had any resounding issues, but what person, or relationship doesn't? Things are never ideal, but we are working with what we have.
I have been very open with him about how I feel, whether I am sad or elated I am truthful with him. He on the other hand has been being somewhat of a pain. We have been seeing his therapist for couples therapy as well. The reason I say he has been being a pain is because he tends to shut down when he doesn't know the answer to a question and he is just godawful at thinking hypothetically. The therapist asks him what challenges he foresees with transitioning...
I don't know.. What do you think transitioning will do for you...
I don't know...I am not trying to sound testy, nor am I trying to sound like I am angry with my partner for his TG, I am just so tired and drained from this and a number of other things at the moment.
Understood - thanks for the clarification on this. Do remember to take care of yourself too.
Quote from: Slanan on January 10, 2011, 03:08:21 PM
Understood - thanks for the clarification on this. Do remember to take care of yourself too.
Thank you, and I am trying to figure out how to do that.
I just got off the phone with my friend Lizzy. Lizzy is actually the first person Dan came out to, and I was introduced to her through him. However, as I think I have mentioned above and in previous posts, Dan excels at failing to maintain relationships. That said, Lizzy and I have developed a pretty awesome friendship, and it is nice to have someone who knows Dan almost as well as I do to talk things over with. I tried to call Lizzy this morning, but I got her voicemail. I didn't think that leaving a 30 second voicemail of me dry heaving and weeping would be a good idea so I just waited for her to call me back. She eventually did and I let her know what was going on. I told her that I am considering moving to NYC after we have our civil hearing. Lizzy told me that she was going to call me today anyway to ask me to be a bridesmaid in her wedding.
Lizzy also told me that she is coming down on Wednesday, so I will get to see her and her beautiful son, Jack. I am glad she is coming down to see me. I so need a day out with a friend who knows everything that is going on.
Things seem to be at a standstill... I don't have the energy to retype everything that has transpired over the past day and a half, so I am just going to share one of the private messages I sent out.
I am feeling a little better now... Not entirely, but I have spent the majority of the day thinking. I tried to talk to Dan this morning before he left for work, but that wasn't happening. I visited him after work before he had to go to school, and still he wants to push the topics under the rug. I told him I simply can not do that anymore. His way to deal with me wanting to talk is to tell me we will discuss it on Friday (when we have counseling). I just want to scream!
We had plans. He promised me that I would be his wife, that we would raise a family together, and that he would give me all of the love he could possibly give another person. I now know that I will never have a husband from him, I will never hold one of our children in my arms or feel them moving inside of me, and I don't know how small the well of love could be that he is pulling from, but I feel as though it is steadily going dry. My heart aches, but I can't let him go. Perhaps I may be strong, but I'll admit I am decidedly stupid when it comes to certain things.
I asked him what we are working towards, and he couldn't answer me. All he kept saying is, "We're together, and that's all that matters". I am not the type of person that enjoys living in the moment EVERY moment. I like to have plans, goals, and expectations. Right now, I can't even see tomorrow. It's so unbelievably frustrating. I know that he didn't tell me about the issues he had with his GID when we met because he was not coming to terms with it himself, but at the same time, I am just so angry. I am angry that I am at a place where I have to sacrifice the things I aspire to have or to give up the person that I have come to love so very much. I am angry because as much as I am willing to sacrifice, he seems to be unmoved by my pain and frustration. I don't know what to do.
I know that lying is something he has had to do to protect himself from his feelings, from accepting his GID, from disappointing those he loves, but I feel as though he is taking advantage of my love. I told him this morning that in not asking his brother for my presence to be granted (that sounds so stupid) or telling him that I will be accompanying him I feel jipped. I feel minimized. I feel inferior. His brother wouldn't tell the middle brother not to bring his wife over, and though I do not have that title, I am Dan's partner. Most of the interactions that he has had with his family since we have been together is because I have grown to know them and keep in contact with them.
It makes me sick to my stomach to say this, as more than anything I crave to have a family, to have children, but I told Dan earlier that if I were to find out I was pregnant tomorrow I don't know if I could keep the baby... I can't imagine bringing a child into something this screwed up. Right now I don't know which end is up. I am questioning myself, am I making the right decision. Would he do this for me? I honestly do not believe he would.
I have so much flying around in my mind that I doubt I will sleep tonight. I feel as though the anger I have might be the factor that kills this relationship. Anger is poisonous and is in no way beneficial to this surviving, which is why I wish I could figure out how to make it go away.
I do not want our relationship to become acidic. It is paramount to me that we maintain the love that we have so gently fostered over the past year and a half. IF we can't do that, I don't know what I will do.
I am sorry that I am being so negative and pessimistic, I try hard not to, but this situation is just getting the best of me.
I know that there is more to be said, I just can't think in a straight line right now... Thank you for your caring and advice.
I don't want this to sound whiny, I just don't know what to do right now. My heart is heavier than it has been in a long time. Lord knows I love Dan, otherwise I wouldn't have stuck around this long, but I just don't know how much more I can take if he isn't willing to give me the consideration I need and deserve. I feel as though our partnership is falling apart, and he refuses to take any responsibility for it. I need him to see things from my perspective, because I have been trying pretty damn hard to see them from his.
To avoid sounding redundant and voicing the fact that I am angry and frustrated 10 more times I am just going to end this post here. Negative sleep and emotional exhaustion make it somewhat difficult for me to remain focused on keeping the rest of my thoughts sorted and legible.
I hope that you have managed to get some sleep. My only advice is to remember to take a step back and breathe sometimes. I read that you have talked with him but have you told him all of this? Not word for word of course but have you explained to him that if you had a plan, any plan of some sort, that you feel you could handle it better? Your partner from your posts sounds unwilling to talk. I did the same thing. I knew that I was transgender but there was so much of "what comes next, what can I do?" It created pain and anger in my relationship with my ex. I wrote my feelings down day to day and I'll be honest some days it was a page full of words not appropriate for Susans. Maybe this could work for you or him or even both? *hugs* I hope things get better for you both.
Wow Jacquelyn what an ordeal you are going thru. I am sorry that we did not see this post until this morning.
Many, many, big hugs.
Roxy and I are thinking that you are such a great person. We are sorry you are going through this turmoil.
Not wishing to sound unsupportive to the TG community, it does sound like you are a person that deserves better than how you are being treated. (TG issues aside) There are important considerations that are being overlooked in day to day life that are just not fair. We may not always be up to treating others the way we would like to be treated, but Dan does not seem to be meeting the basics. (From our perspective)
Life is not easy sometimes and can often be very painful. We hope you find what you need and that there is a respite from your difficulties. Thank you for sharing.
Roxy is sitting next to me and we wish to give you a group hug!!! (If possible a group akward sway)
Lots of Love and best Wishes.
Roxy & Patty
A spouse or a significant other that upon learning of their partners ->-bleeped-<- . And doesn't run screaming down the street in there housecoat and curlers. All the while screaming " Oh My God, Hide Your Children, Hide Your Husbands!!! " " I Can't Believe I Let Him Touch Me!! " While pulling at her hair and ripping her clothes off. Is quite a "catch" in my book. As significant others go , you by far surpass this criteria. I don't mean to kid at a time like this, but maybe the visualization of this might just bring a tiny smile.
All kidding aside. I think you know Jaquelyn. Patty and I think you are a very special person. From your first posts it was easy to see that you are a warm, kind and considerate lady. Someone that instead of calling it "quits" after hearing that there SO might be trans, starts to look and find information out about it. Even joins Susan's to try to gain an understanding . All I can say about that is, "you are simply amazing." I wish everyone had a SO half as considerate as you.
I realize Dan has other issues he has to address as well as the monumental task of understanding his transgender feelings. I know how it is, to be afraid to tell the ones you love about your feeling, for fear they will leave. But I can see by your posts, that if Dan is not going to be honest with himself as well as being honest with you. He is going to lose one of the best things he's got going for himself, (you). I wish he realized this, that ladies like you just don't fall out of trees. They are few and far between.
You have already done an amazing job at keeping your relationship together. It is obvious that it is important to you. I wish I could say something to you or give you some advice. It looks like to me you are doing the best that you can. I think that it is Dan that needs the advice and it seems it will be him that ultimately decides the outcome of this relationship.
All I can give you now is a warm supportive hug and the hopes that an apple falls from a tree and hits Dan squarely on the top of the head.
Hugs (awkward sway) Roxy
Quote from: Andrew Scott on January 12, 2011, 08:02:35 AM
I hope that you have managed to get some sleep. My only advice is to remember to take a step back and breathe sometimes. I read that you have talked with him but have you told him all of this? Not word for word of course but have you explained to him that if you had a plan, any plan of some sort, that you feel you could handle it better? Your partner from your posts sounds unwilling to talk. I did the same thing. I knew that I was transgender but there was so much of "what comes next, what can I do?" It created pain and anger in my relationship with my ex. I wrote my feelings down day to day and I'll be honest some days it was a page full of words not appropriate for Susans. Maybe this could work for you or him or even both? *hugs* I hope things get better for you both.
Thank you Andrew. I did fall asleep around 6am, and woke up at 7:38am to Dan
still asleep when he usually leaves for work by 7:30 (on a day when he doesn't have to dig his car out of a snow drift!). I woke him up and we cuddled for a bit, he still wouldn't talk, but this morning I didn't try to force him to, and then he left for work.
I have virtually exhausted myself of explanation to him. I like to believe that I am usually pretty effective at conveying my feelings and thoughts. He is just like talking to a brick wall. I just hate it. I hate that I am more than willing to consider revamping my
entire life to keep him as a central part of it, but he can't be considerate enough to talk to me.
As far as him keeping a journal or something I know that he joined a support forum (Lauras) but he hasn't been too active there. I keep encouraging him to do so, but he doesn't feel compelled to take that step as much as I have here. I have told him how much joining this site has helped me, but alas, he doesn't get into it.
Quote from: Mrs Erocse on January 12, 2011, 09:07:03 AM
Wow Jacquelyn what an ordeal you are going thru. I am sorry that we did not see this post until this morning.
Many, many, big hugs.
Roxy and I are thinking that you are such a great person. We are sorry you are going through this turmoil.
Not wishing to sound unsupportive to the TG community, it does sound like you are a person that deserves better than how you are being treated. (TG issues aside) There are important considerations that are being overlooked in day to day life that are just not fair. We may not always be up to treating others the way we would like to be treated, but Dan does not seem to be meeting the basics. (From our perspective)
Life is not easy sometimes and can often be very painful. We hope you find what you need and that there is a respite from your difficulties. Thank you for sharing.
Roxy is sitting next to me and we wish to give you a group hug!!! (If possible a group akward sway)
Lots of Love and best Wishes.
Roxy & Patty
Quote from: Erocse on January 12, 2011, 12:36:55 PM
A spouse or a significant other that upon learning of their partners ->-bleeped-<- . And doesn't run screaming down the street in there housecoat and curlers. All the while screaming " Oh My God, Hide Your Children, Hide Your Husbands!!! " " I Can't Believe I Let Him Touch Me!! " While pulling at her hair and ripping her clothes off. Is quite a "catch" in my book. As significant others go , you by far surpass this criteria. I don't mean to kid at a time like this, but maybe the visualization of this might just bring a tiny smile.
All kidding aside. I think you know Jaquelyn. Patty and I think you are a very special person. From your first posts it was easy to see that you are a warm, kind and considerate lady. Someone that instead of calling it "quits" after hearing that there SO might be trans, starts to look and find information out about it. Even joins Susan's to try to gain an understanding . All I can say about that is, "you are simply amazing." I wish everyone had a SO half as considerate as you.
I realize Dan has other issues he has to address as well as the monumental task of understanding his transgender feelings. I know how it is, to be afraid to tell the ones you love about your feeling, for fear they will leave. But I can see by your posts, that if Dan is not going to be honest with himself as well as being honest with you. He is going to lose one of the best things he's got going for himself, (you). I wish he realized this, that ladies like you just don't fall out of trees. They are few and far between.
You have already done an amazing job at keeping your relationship together. It is obvious that it is important to you. I wish I could say something to you or give you some advice. It looks like to me you are doing the best that you can. I think that it is Dan that needs the advice and it seems it will be him that ultimately decides the outcome of this relationship.
All I can give you now is a warm supportive hug and the hopes that an apple falls from a tree and hits Dan squarely on the top of the head.
Hugs (awkward sway) Roxy
Roxy and Patty- I think I may have mentioned it before, but I do not believe that Dan's TG would be what ends us. I think if anything, it may expedite the process, not because I am disgusted by him, or because I think he is a terrible person, but because no matter how much I am there for him I do not feel as though I am getting my fair share back. Reading your posts (more specifically Patty's...) I am both happy and sad. I am happy because I see that two people can make it work, but I am deeply saddened because I do not feel that Dan is willing to make it work.
I think that this will all come out again in the therapy session on Friday.
Hopefully Dan will feel compelled to listen to me there. I also talked to his friend Lizzy again today, and after I get my finances sorted out I think I am going to head up to NYC for a week or two to stay with her. I can't keep making an effort when I am getting no support from him. I feel so uncertain, but at the same time I feel like we are getting closer to the end.
I don't know if I should continue trying or just throw in the towel... :'( :'( :'( :'(
At this point I think he may just be feeling pressure from you to make a decision since so much of your future is bound up in what he does. Guys have this nasty habit of getting even more reserved and non-responsive if pushed. Hopefully he can open up in your session on Friday and help move things along. Otherwise I don't think you would be unjustified to leave. A trip to NYC might be a good test. Personally, once you are gone, I think he might realize what colossal mistake he made in pushing you away.
On another topic, you mentioned that one of the things you would be giving up is kids with Dan. This doesn't have to be true if you freeze and store Dan's sperm before he starts HRT. Dr. Christine McGinn, a surgeon and MTF herself, was recently on Oprah because she had done this very thing. With her partner.
Quote from: Melody on January 12, 2011, 08:26:34 PM
At this point I think he may just be feeling pressure from you to make a decision since so much of your future is bound up in what he does. Guys have this nasty habit of getting even more reserved and non-responsive if pushed. Hopefully he can open up in your session on Friday and help move things along. Otherwise I don't think you would be unjustified to leave. A trip to NYC might be a good test. Personally, once you are gone, I think he might realize what colossal mistake he made in pushing you away.
On another topic, you mentioned that one of the things you would be giving up is kids with Dan. This doesn't have to be true if you freeze and store Dan's sperm before he starts HRT. Dr. Christine McGinn, a surgeon and MTF herself, was recently on Oprah because she had done this very thing. With her partner.
I don't necessarily need anything in concrete, I would just like a push in some direction or another. I can't adjust to uncertainty. :-\
The trip to NYC is something that I think we need, I need. My friends that we live with agree, I am not going to pay rent for the time I am up there, and they want me to take that breather too. They both know that Dan has been struggling with his GID and are supportive so long as Dan doesn't treat me poorly.
As far as freezing sperm, we simply can't afford it. Right now all of the costs of transitioning are on him. I don't know how or when he will be able to afford that (I couldn't help now even if I wanted to seeing as I am not working) seeing as he struggles to see a therapist twice a month for $70 a session.
I did see that episode of Oprah though. I found it online.
70$ a session is a deal. I pay my psyrink $125 a session and that is the lowest on her sliding scale.
Dan sounds like he is dealing with T poisoning. He is constantly surley, biter and acerbic.... Yes? No?
Get him on a T blocker and see how he acts.
just a thought
Things sound like they are not going well. It is comendable that you wish to be with him but I fear you are loosing sight of what is most important right now....You.
I know it is not something that you want to dwell on but you need to start to figure out what you will do in the event you and Dan seperate.
It would be a shame with all you have put in for the relationship to disolve. I am rooting for you but please have a plan B.
Hello Jacquelyn,
You welcomed me when I posted my introduction today. Thank you so much! I have just read through the whole thread of your struggles with Dan right now. I empathize. We have had years of struggle ourselves and only this year are finally celebrating one year without a major fight! A few things come to my mind that might be helpful to you.
First, your desire to have children is so understandable to me. It was incredibly strong in me; my only real life goal though I have ended up doing other interesting things as well. So, to that end, you must keep in mind that if you do end up staying with Dan, you simply have to prioritize banking sperm. There is no reason to bank it if he is not going to transition. And of course at this point, you do not know. But you can keep in mind that it is one of the many "things to do" that accompany the process of transition. You might need to save the money yourself to pay for it. If it is a priority, you can make it happen.
Secondly, I would encourage you to do some spiritual work on your own state of mind. You say you don't like to always stay in the present. Well, I would say that not only is it uncomfortable to always "be present," it is not even possible. The work of meditation is a study in the PRACTICE of staying present; I want to emphasize the word "practice" because it takes practice to meditate. It takes practice to be in the moment. Just as one gets better on a musical instrument with practice, one gets better at being in the moment with practice. Learning to be in the moment with full attention, allows one to become more compassionate with one's self and with others. I am not saying that you are not compassionate. You are obviously a very caring person. All I am saying, is that you might learn to be more comfortable with uncertainty. Life is full of it. Even with someone who loves to dream and plan, uncertainty hangs over all of that. I would go so far as to recommend a book to you by a funny, charming western Buddhist woman named Pema Chodron called "Comfortable with Uncertainty". Although her background is Buddhist, she is basically a philosopher (as is Buddhism in general a philosophy). She gently provides stories that encourage the reader to open and accept, and basically learn to be happier with what is.
Another point that comes to mind is also related to a book I am currently reading called "What Could He Be Thinking" by Michael Gurian. The author refers to studies that examine the male and female brain; how they are constructed and how they are affected by hormones. He very clearly makes a case to show that males are actually WIRED to be less communicative than females. Females have a much larger capacity for language and for emotions. Guys are more wired to orient toward getting things done. These sound like stereotypes but when you look at the neurons and the chemistry, it begins to add up.Your partner may be stuck in the middle right now. He's wired to be non-communicative but he isn't happy being success driven either because he is trans. He might have trouble talking about the whole baby thing because, as many transwomen express, he wishes HE could have the baby. But that would be a pretty advanced understanding of himself, so at this point, that would probably be subconscious.
I liked the suggestion from cynthialee about starting with a T blocker to see if that helps him emotionally. See what the therapist says, and Dan of course. And one more thing I noticed about your life is that Dan sounds REALLY busy, working full time and going to school. That's a lot of stress. I'm sure you cut him plenty of slack, and it sounds like he deserves it. And for you to take a break and visit your friend, good plan. Maybe you can get some reading done on the train. ;)
Hugs to you, sweetheart. Hang in there.
Ruby
Quote from: cynthialee on January 12, 2011, 08:48:35 PM
70$ a session is a deal. I pay my psyrink $125 a session and that is the lowest on her sliding scale.
Dan sounds like he is dealing with T poisoning. He is constantly surley, biter and acerbic.... Yes? No?
Get him on a T blocker and see how he acts.
just a thought
Things sound like they are not going well. It is comendable that you wish to be with him but I fear you are loosing sight of what is most important right now....You.
I know it is not something that you want to dwell on but you need to start to figure out what you will do in the event you and Dan seperate.
It would be a shame with all you have put in for the relationship to disolve. I am rooting for you but please have a plan B.
Thank you, Cythialee. Dan is usually quite kind, he's always been pretty quiet- it's just that right now I feel like we most definitely need to focus on keeping the communication going. I am trying to keep sight of what I need and what I want, but Dan is so woven into those thoughts and feelings that it is making it very difficult to sort through them.
We have the therapy appointment tomorrow, thank god. There is so much that I feel we need to address that I hardly know where to start. I got approved for unemployment, so I should be able to take my escape to New York soon. I think I might just wait until the Monday after my birthday (the 29th) and head up to Lizzy's before the hearing we have down here.
Quote from: rubywendt on January 12, 2011, 09:41:17 PM
Hello Jacquelyn,
You welcomed me when I posted my introduction today. Thank you so much! I have just read through the whole thread of your struggles with Dan right now. I empathize. We have had years of struggle ourselves and only this year are finally celebrating one year without a major fight! A few things come to my mind that might be helpful to you.
First, your desire to have children is so understandable to me. It was incredibly strong in me; my only real life goal though I have ended up doing other interesting things as well. So, to that end, you must keep in mind that if you do end up staying with Dan, you simply have to prioritize banking sperm. There is no reason to bank it if he is not going to transition. And of course at this point, you do not know. But you can keep in mind that it is one of the many "things to do" that accompany the process of transition. You might need to save the money yourself to pay for it. If it is a priority, you can make it happen.
Secondly, I would encourage you to do some spiritual work on your own state of mind. You say you don't like to always stay in the present. Well, I would say that not only is it uncomfortable to always "be present," it is not even possible. The work of meditation is a study in the PRACTICE of staying present; I want to emphasize the word "practice" because it takes practice to meditate. It takes practice to be in the moment. Just as one gets better on a musical instrument with practice, one gets better at being in the moment with practice. Learning to be in the moment with full attention, allows one to become more compassionate with one's self and with others. I am not saying that you are not compassionate. You are obviously a very caring person. All I am saying, is that you might learn to be more comfortable with uncertainty. Life is full of it. Even with someone who loves to dream and plan, uncertainty hangs over all of that. I would go so far as to recommend a book to you by a funny, charming western Buddhist woman named Pema Chodron called "Comfortable with Uncertainty". Although her background is Buddhist, she is basically a philosopher (as is Buddhism in general a philosophy). She gently provides stories that encourage the reader to open and accept, and basically learn to be happier with what is.
Another point that comes to mind is also related to a book I am currently reading called "What Could He Be Thinking" by Michael Gurian. The author refers to studies that examine the male and female brain; how they are constructed and how they are affected by hormones. He very clearly makes a case to show that males are actually WIRED to be less communicative than females. Females have a much larger capacity for language and for emotions. Guys are more wired to orient toward getting things done. These sound like stereotypes but when you look at the neurons and the chemistry, it begins to add up.Your partner may be stuck in the middle right now. He's wired to be non-communicative but he isn't happy being success driven either because he is trans. He might have trouble talking about the whole baby thing because, as many transwomen express, he wishes HE could have the baby. But that would be a pretty advanced understanding of himself, so at this point, that would probably be subconscious.
I liked the suggestion from cynthialee about starting with a T blocker to see if that helps him emotionally. See what the therapist says, and Dan of course. And one more thing I noticed about your life is that Dan sounds REALLY busy, working full time and going to school. That's a lot of stress. I'm sure you cut him plenty of slack, and it sounds like he deserves it. And for you to take a break and visit your friend, good plan. Maybe you can get some reading done on the train. ;)
Hugs to you, sweetheart. Hang in there.
Ruby
Ruby-
Thank you so much for your kind words. Congratulations to you and Chelsea for making things work out so well. I have reread your response a few times, and to be honest I am not exactly sure how to answer it. The biggest thing that hit me was the paragraph about having children. I am trying very hard to accept all of the changes that his potential transitioning would have on our relationship in the long run. Right now Dan knows, and accepts, that I am not now or in the foreseeable future, going to assist him monetarily with transitioning. I have offered to pay for all or part of our therapy, but that is all. I know that probably sounds harsh, but knowing Dan as well as I do I have my reasons.
Firstly, Dan is terrible (understatement) with money. I tend to be better with finances, and have offered to assist him with his, but he is very stubborn. It is rare that he will save the money he needs for anything, and I do assist him sometimes. That said, if transitioning is something that he does need to do, if it is something that is important to him, then he will have to find the means to pay for it himself.
Secondly, Dan doesn't usually follow through with things. Big things, small things, anything. If I were to put money into his transition along with the exhausting emotional support and he were to decide to stop a bit down the line I would be absolutely furious. Dan tends to jump headfirst into things without considering the consequences first. I don't want to sound nonsupportive or mean, but so far transition seems to be no different. He kicks into high gear over things and swears up, down, and sideways that
this must be the answer because right now it seems so right, and a few months later (if that) he is let down or apathetic. Instant gratification is his mantra.
Thirdly, as it stands now, and I know that some other MTF couples experience this, I don't want to compete for the role of mother. If Dan does decide to transition and we do manage to stay together I don't believe that I would want to have children. I have no problem with same sex couples raising children, and I have mentioned this before, but I want my children to grow up with a mother and a father. That is something I did not have. Now, because I know how hypocritical those two statements sound after each other, I am very close to my Mum-Mum (my paternal great-aunt) who happens to be a lesbian. She is more or less my grandmother on my fathers side of the family. She raised my father (and while he is a complete jackass and loser, he was always a headcase) and has always been the one to guide myself and my sisters in the right direction, along with her partner, Joy. I think that they have a great dichotomy, and I would change nothing about the way that they helped to raise us. However, as I said, I desire a home with a mother and a father for my children (silly thing a messed up childhood will do to you) and that is something I am unwilling to be flexible about. If I can't have that, then I simply won't have children.
Thank you for the book recommendations as well. If I get to the bookstore anytime soon I will look into those. I did have some neuropsych in school that discussed the differences in male and female brain constructs, and I find it fascinating.
Overall, I
am a planner. Always have been, always will be. I do enjoy spontaneity, don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those people that plans things to the second either, I just like to set goals for myself. With our hectic (though mine is reasonably slower with the unemployment...) and often seldom coinciding schedules the only way certain things get done is when I make the plans. That is part of the reason that I am planning to disappear to NYC for a week or two. I think that Dan takes that for granted. I do tend to stick to certain schedules (shopping, laundry, etc.) because I don't get any help with the domestic things.
I told him last night that I was planning to leave for NYC and that while I am gone I am going to take our puppy to my sisters. With his schedule he can't take care of him and though we live with two other people, Bear is not their responsibility. When I told him this he got pretty upset. He realized that he will be sleeping alone. Without me. Without our pup. While I don't enjoy sleeping away from him, it's something that I think we both need very much. I was surprised that he got so visibly upset, he started to tear up. We actually talked a little bit. He doesn't want me to go to NYC because he doesn't think I will come back. As much as I hate to say it, I can't say with 100% certainty that he is wrong. I don't plan to go there and go crazy. The idea of staying in the city for a few weeks, working at Lizzy's old restaurant while I am up there, walking the city until I am exhausted, and just spending some quiet time with my friends sounds so good to me right now. I just want to forget everything for now.
The insomnia, the crying, the emotional exhaustion is just so much right now that all I want is to be so tired that my mind simply will not function. I want to be so busy that I don't dwell on this for a while. I want to push everything away for a few days and just not worry. This alone will be a task for me, and I happily look forward to it.
Though I am nervous, the past few days have utterly confirmed for me that I need this. I am so worn out, and I have had more than a few panic attacks this week. Today I had two really bad ones, and it is always the stupidest thing that triggers them. My sister and my friend convinced me to come out and see Black Swan with them at the local theatre. I went to the mall to meet them and they were both running late so I started to walk around to kill time. Silly me, I went into the Hallmark store to buy a card for my other sisters birthday this week. Of course, it's January so EVERYWHERE that you look in Hallmark there are Valentine's Day memorabilia. I am a sap, I started to tear up. Thankfully there weren't many people there. I could feel my chest tightening up, and my eye caught a card that said: "To my future husband..." Just two and a half weeks ago Dan gave me a Christmas card that read: "To my wife..." and he had added in 'future' to that. That is immediately where my mind went and I lost it. I found my way out of the store and to the closest rest room to clean my face off and compose myself. I hate when things like that happen, and this week that is all I have been able to count on.
I am just so tired. I am torn for tomorrow. I can't decide whether I am more nervous or prepared for the therapy appointment. I keep reminding myself to breathe and I am trying hard to stay calm.
Thank you again for your kind responses. I will give you an update tomorrow after the appointment.
Hugs,
Jacquelyn
Jacquelyn -
My heart goes out to you. You're in a really difficult place and I wish i could tell you how to fix it but I can't.
What I can tell you is that you're a wonderful, loving, caring person and I worry about you.
I spent years of my marriage in the same kind of emotional roller coaster, though it wasn't about gender. It left me drained and resentful and it took me a long time to move past it. I'm not sure how I made it through. I did learn a few things from my mistakes that I hope can help you.
Take care of yourself first! Sacrificing your mental, emotional, physical and spiritual health for another person isn't showing them love. Do whatever those things are that nourish you. You'll be better able to love and help that person in what ever way you need to. Getting away from that person for awhile isn't abandoning them it's taking care of yourself and it will probably do you both some good. I sounds like this trip to NY might be one thing you need.
It sounds like your already doing it but lean of other people. Other people love you and you need their love and support to deal with these tough times.
I wish I could think of more but the lack of sleep is catching up with me.
Please be kind to yourself you deserve it!
Quote from: Tamaki on January 15, 2011, 12:08:52 AM
Jacquelyn -
My heart goes out to you. You're in a really difficult place and I wish i could tell you how to fix it but I can't.
What I can tell you is that you're a wonderful, loving, caring person and I worry about you.
I spent years of my marriage in the same kind of emotional roller coaster, though it wasn't about gender. It left me drained and resentful and it took me a long time to move past it. I'm not sure how I made it through. I did learn a few things from my mistakes that I hope can help you.
Take care of yourself first! Sacrificing your mental, emotional, physical and spiritual health for another person isn't showing them love. Do whatever those things are that nourish you. You'll be better able to love and help that person in what ever way you need to. Getting away from that person for awhile isn't abandoning them it's taking care of yourself and it will probably do you both some good. I sounds like this trip to NY might be one thing you need.
It sounds like your already doing it but lean of other people. Other people love you and you need their love and support to deal with these tough times.
I wish I could think of more but the lack of sleep is catching up with me.
Please be kind to yourself you deserve it!
Thank you, Tamaki. As your lack of sleep is catching up to you so is my physical and emotional exhaustion... I am going to take my trip to NY as soon as possible, because I do need to get out of here for a bit. As one of the amazing friends I met here has asked me, does Dan realize what he is potentially giving up to transition? Not just me if things keep going the way they are, but things he may take for granted. He doesn't much like to be scrutinized, and he hates attention. I try not to worry about these things, because I really have no say in what he chooses to do with his life, but I do worry. I love him, but I know I can't live happily worrying about things because I know that he doesn't weigh the consequences of any action.
Sorry, that got a bit off topic, I am just a bit frazzled still. Hopefully, what I think I was getting at, Dan will take some time to consider a host of things during my leave of absence. If I come home and he tells me that he is 110% certain that HRT is the way to go for him
right now and he has considered, and is willing and able to accept dedicating his life to that part of him, than I will willingly step aside and say no more. Will that happen? Who knows, we shall find out soon enough.
As for today, we had our therapy appointment. It went alright I guess. Alexis started off with asking us how things have been. I looked over at Dan, and said, "Well...", he in turn looked down at the floor and said nothing, eventually he muttered something along the lines of, "Fine". With that I turned to Alexis and told her that there was no reason for us to be here if he was going to lie, and that this week has been an absolute mess. She then started to ask Dan about why this week had been particularly bad, why I was upset, and pretty much what had gone down. He explained to her that he had broken up with me on Sunday, and that he had said he wanted to start HRT. From there Alexis asked me how I felt about that, and why I was so upset. I explained to her that Dan has pretty much refused to talk to me about anything all week, and that he is pretty much a closed book all the time. She asked me how that makes me feel, how, Dan's GID aside, I feel when Dan is nonresponsive to my need to communicate. I told her honestly that it hurts, that I hate it, and that if we don't break through this barrier to communicate that I can't promise that I will stay.
She asked Dan to tell her what I felt, and why he didn't take the time to do the things I ask him to do when it comes to communication. She asked him if he loved me, he said yes. She asked him if he wanted to keep me in his life forever, and he said yes. She then asked him why he doesn't treat me that way since typically we do more and are more interested in the welfare of those we love. He gave his typical response of, "I don't know".
Alexis continued to ask him some questions along those same lines, and then she asked him what he is passionate about; she asked him what makes him happy and why. He sat there quietly and thought for a good 5 minutes, and then looked at her and blankly said, "I don't know". She had given him a depression questionnaire on his second or third visit, and asked me to answer the same questions for him on my first visit with her. She went back to the responses and said that though Dan doesn't exhibit all of the characteristics of someone who is depressed that talking with him, hearing the lack of enthusiasm for anything that he has, she believes that he is suffering from depression. She asked Dan and myself is that would be a long shot, and living with people who have been diagnosed with clinical depression, I had to tell her it wasn't. He also agreed that she was probably on the right trail.
Tomorrow I am going to call our family doctor and see if I can set up an appointment with her to discuss what has been going on in therapy, and to get Dan a script for an antidepressant. Alexis said that if our Doctor needs to talk to her and discuss her decision she is more than happy to do that.
During the appointment, Dan also told Alexis that he wants to have a family before he transitions. When he got home last night he came into our bedroom and gave me a hug. He just held me for a few minutes and then he told me that he had been thinking all day at work, and he had concluded that he wants to have a family, he wants to get married. He apologized for being so short with me the past few days and told me that he was miserable seeing me so upset, and that it makes him happy when I am happy... I don't know what to think. I am not willing to forget everything that he said, and I am not willing to be hurt again when decides to tell me that he no longer feels that way. I told Alexis this as well, and she nodded and said that hopefully after Dan's body gets acclimated to the antidepressants he will be able to think more stably. I too hope that this is the case.
I am still going to go to NYC, I still think that we could desperately use this time to think and breathe. Hopefully we will see some progress before that...
Also, when we got home we were talking about the session and he said he thinks he may join here. He isn't sure when, but he thinks (and I agree) that it would be a good way for him to get support.
Tomorrow we are heading out to the middle of PA to visit his Dad and Aunt. We'll be spending the night at his Dad's house and then coming home sometime Sunday. I enjoy going out there to visit, they are probably the two people (minus his ridiculously adorable 2 year old nephew) that I am most comfortable around in his family.
I was hoping that after this session my mind would be a little quieter, but it isn't really. I am still anxious and sleep just doesn't look like it is in the cards again tonight... Meh, I just keep reminding myself to breathe...
Hugs,
Jacquelyn
Jackie,
I think you should take this opportunity to break up. I looked for your post where you said that you couldn't be in a long-term relationship with a woman, because you definitely wanted children and didn't want kids with another woman. I think that Dan must have either absolutely heard this from you, or sensed it subconsciously or unconsciously, and that's why he's pulling away from you. Maybe he really wants kids and knows that if he follows his heart that he can't do this with you. Otherwise, he'd have to be trapped in a body he hates to please you. Why waste your time with him knowing your desires unless you want him to change his mind about this?
I think if you really feel this way about children, you should just make a clean break and save Dan and yourself heartbreak. He could find someone who can accept his plans to transition 100%. Your feelings regarding kids and having a mother and a father may impede his progress towards being his true self and being as happy as he could be. You two are so young, the chances of you being together for the long term are small anyway. It always hurts, but in a few years, it won't so much unless you find that you can't find a relationship that is better (which actually happens often enough). I've seen people who break a relationship for a trivial reason and then 40 years later, they wish they hadn't. I hope you don't become one of these people. Blood is NOT thicker than water -- LOVE is thicker than blood. And if you don't get this, I'm talking about children -- you don't need to birth them for them to be your kids.
Basically, as it stands -- your relationship is conditional. Once that becomes apparent, you should end it. Especially, at your age.
I guess this bothers me, because gender is inconsequential, or at least should be. I don't see how gender plays into being a better parent or why men make more money than women or why the mothers get custody of children more often, regardless of parenting skills (though, this is changing, THANK GOD!!!). Your attitude is really setting gender equality WAY back.
You're kind of promoting what the anti-gay people say, a marriage NEEDS to be between a MAN and A WOMAN!!!!
NIMBY, sadly, strikes YET again! :(
Quote from: sonopoly on January 15, 2011, 10:02:57 AM
Jackie,
I think you should take this opportunity to break up. I looked for your post where you said that you couldn't be in a long-term relationship with a woman, because you definitely wanted children and didn't want kids with another woman. I think that Dan must have either absolutely heard this from you, or sensed it subconsciously or unconsciously, and that's why he's pulling away from you. Maybe he really wants kids and knows that if he follows his heart that he can't do this with you. Otherwise, he'd have to be trapped in a body he hates to please you. Why waste your time with him knowing your desires unless you want him to change his mind about this?
I think if you really feel this way about children, you should just make a clean break and save Dan and yourself heartbreak. He could find someone who can accept his plans to transition 100%. Your feelings regarding kids and having a mother and a father may impede his progress towards being his true self and being as happy as he could be. You two are so young, the chances of you being together for the long term are small anyway. It always hurts, but in a few years, it won't so much unless you find that you can't find a relationship that is better (which actually happens often enough). I've seen people who break a relationship for a trivial reason and then 40 years later, they wish they hadn't. I hope you don't become one of these people. Blood is NOT thicker than water -- LOVE is thicker than blood. And if you don't get this, I'm talking about children -- you don't need to birth them for them to be your kids.
I guess this bothers me, because gender is inconsequential, or at least should be. I don't see how gender plays into being a better parent or why men make more money than women or why the mothers get custody of children more often, regardless of parenting skills (though, this is changing, THANK GOD!!!). Your attitude is really setting gender equality WAY back.
You're kind of promoting what the anti-gay people say, a marriage NEEDS to be between a MAN and A WOMAN!!!! Disguised homophobia is what I see.
Sonopoly,
First , I thank you for taking your time to send me a reply. However, there are a few things in your reply that a) bother me and b) couldn't be further from the truth. First, as I have said before children are something that I want, yes. Marriage is something that I want, yes. Losing Dan is the furthest thing from what I want. As it stands if he transitions I would tentatively be giving up both of those things. Can I say with absolute certainty that I can go one way or the other? No. I don't plan to make an rash judgments whether it's to stay or go based on my perceived emotions. As we both firmly believe in partnership we have agreed to go to counseling and sort through the things that we absolutely need to be happy as a couple and as individuals.
Second, if you had read my previous posts in their entirety you would see that Dan and I had previously discussed the option of adoption. His parents were married for 10 years before they conceived their first child and were told by numerous Doctors that they were infertile. That said, I am not thick, I do understand the concept that love is thicker than blood, and would thus love a child I had adopted no less than a child I had given birth to. However, I feel a little slighted to have that option robbed of me, which I do not believe makes me a bad person nor do I think that those feelings are limited to me as an SO. Is that something that I may have to come to terms with? Yes.
On that same note, had you taken the time to read my previous posts, which thankfully has been done by all of the other posters, you would see that I am quite supportive of families that digress from the nuclear ideal. However, having a pretty messed up childhood to say the least and missing a consistent father figure in my home I would much like for my children to have one. Were GID never something that I had stumbled across I would
still want my children to have a mother and a father. I would still want this dichotomy present. And yes, I am one of those awful people that don't really believe in divorce. How archaic, right?
Finally, the part that really got under my skin from your post:
QuoteI guess this bothers me, because gender is inconsequential, or at least should be. I don't see how gender plays into being a better parent or why men make more money than women or why the mothers get custody of children more often, regardless of parenting skills (though, this is changing, THANK GOD!!!). Your attitude is really setting gender equality WAY back.
You're kind of promoting what the anti-gay people say, a marriage NEEDS to be between a MAN and A WOMAN!!!! Disguised homophobia is what I see.
I have
never been called a homophobe. I do not appreciate that because it is literally the furthest thing from my person. I
never declared my agenda on same sex marriage, and in fact said that my Aunt and her partner have had a loving partnership and union for about 10 years. If two people love each other I don't care if they want to paint their bodies blue and dance under the night sky naked. It is simply their prerogative. That said, gender
does matter and it would be a ridiculous connotation to think otherwise. Many others here at Susan's, whether they be a cis male, female, MTF, or FTM, they all have said that physical gender does play some part in their search for companionship. As a person we have certain things that we look for in a mate, certain qualities that we find attractive or appealing. Do I think that we have any control over those attractions? To be honest, no. However, as a male it doesn't make you a terrible person if you are strictly attracted to females, and vice versa. Do I find myself more geared towards men, yes. Might that change if Dan transitions? I don't know, unfortunately I can't forsee the future.
Please take a second to think over what you have said. Before you accuse people of being homophobic or trying to plant agendas that may be brewing in your mind into my threads, I would appreciate if you would take the time to read and consider all of the related posts, as I am sure others would as well.
I don't mean to sound bitter, and I don't mean to sound cruel; however, your post comes off as mildly accusatory, and far from the mark. Though part of it seems to be a faux attempt at benevolence, there was not much that I found helpful about your reply. If I am the only one, than shame on me, but overall I found most of the things that you had to say irritating to say the least.
Thank you again for your time,
Jacquelyn
Jackie,
Gosh, I really think you are a doll (a sweet darling of a person). I don't know, but as I have read, he broke up with you and seems to be pushing you away. You are going away to NYC -- why? Because he wants you to stay? I thought he seemed to want you to go away. I guess I'm not getting a lot here. So, does he want you to stay and is welcoming your support? If so, why are you in such distress about him pushing you away. Please inform me. I'm a dummy as you can tell, so spell it out for me.
okay, so you say you don't want children with him if he becomes a woman, so what does that mean for you? You never addressed this in your last post. please address it.
Quote from: sonopoly on January 15, 2011, 10:02:57 AM
NIMBY, sadly, strikes YET again! :(
Again, uncalled for. What are you gaining from this?
Quote from: sonopoly on January 15, 2011, 11:12:31 AM
Jackie,
Gosh, I really think you are a doll (a sweet darling of a person). I don't know, but as I have read, he broke up with you and seems to be pushing you away. You are going away to NYC -- why? Because he wants you to stay? I thought he seemed to want you to go away. I guess I'm not getting a lot here. So, does he want you to stay and is welcoming your support? If so, why are you in such distress about him pushing you away. Please inform me. I'm a dummy as you can tell, so spell it out for me.
I am not sure if you have a SO, but things aren't always easy whether or not one or both of the people involved in the relationship happen to be trans. Instead of offering an intelligent reply you decide to make one aimed to be hurtful. It's really childish, and again completely unappreciated.
Unlike you, who it seems would simply walk away when things get tough, I am trying to stick it out and make it work.
I've had an SO for 19 years now and had a previous boyfriend die suddenly at 25. My BF was a tour musician and a heroin addict and I'd probably be with him today if he didn't overdose. I put up with more than you can ever imagine which is why I don't understand you. Your situation is a piece of cake if you really love him.
Okay, Jackie, I wasn't trying to be cruel to you, but when I heard you say that you wouldn't be with him if he became a woman because you want children and think that a child should have a woman for a mother and a man for a father, that REALLY pissed me the F*** Off. That's all I was trying to get across, okay???
NIMBY means NOT in my backyard, which I saw that you accepted your aunt, but, you know, as long is it's NOT IN MY BACKYARD!!! It just reminded me of "some of my best friends are gay!!!!"
Jackie, if you respond or anyone else does, I just want to know why it is okay for a person to feel that they don't want to have children with someone of the same sex. Okay, it is okay, I guess, but is it really? Of course it is. You can feel how you want to. It is everyone's right. I just don't think that much of people who feel that way, though I accept that people do feel that way, I just wouldn't want to be associated with them. Maybe Dan feels the same way I do. From your posts, IT IS he who is rejecting you, am I right? Which is why I added the NIMBY thing -- Yeah, I think it's okay, but not for me and my children. Please explain this to me. I know I might be attacked for my posts, but I want to get some intelligent and informed opinions as to why I'm getting attacked.
I guess what doesn't really ring true about your love for him is that you are going through all this (and he is going through this tenfold) and you are already thinking about children when it's not even close to being in the equation at this point. He is going through SERIOUS issues RIGHT NOW. You need to address them if you really care about him. I don't get why you're talking about children at this point for Christ sake. There is so much going on in him and you are already thinking about things that are way in the future. I mean, when I fell in love I really thought in the moment or just the very near future. Maybe that's just me, but I think he is really going through the most major confusion in his life and you are worried about things that are really so far in the future that I question your feelings for him. He needs your help and support for crucial things that are going on now for him -- perhaps life or death things and you're wondering about children. Just strange to me.
I know I am being harsh to you, Jackie, but I think you are being harsh to Dan (as is everybody else in his life). You probably have many more supporters than he does. I am not just supporting the minority or the underdog, I am going by my gut feeling.
Quote from: sonopoly on January 15, 2011, 11:17:39 AM
I've had an SO for 19 years now and had a previous boyfriend die suddenly at 25.
I am sorry to hear that. I wouldn't wish a loss like that upon my worst enemy.
However, I do not believe that gives you the right to spew untrue or hateful things at me when I have done nothing to harm you.
Quote from: sonopoly on January 15, 2011, 11:19:36 AM
Okay, Jackie, I wasn't trying to be cruel to you, but when I heard you say that you wouldn't be with him if he became a woman because you want children and think that a child should have a woman for a mother and a man for a father, that REALLY pissed me the F*** Off. That's all I was trying to get across, okay???
I think that you mistook my feelings. I am working through many emotions, I am trying to work things out with my SO, and I am trying to be supportive of whatever he must do.
However, if I want to raise my children with a male father and a female mother it is entirely my prerogative to do so. To suggest I am wrong in wanting that is no less unintelligent than for someone to claim that every family ought to be alternative. It is a personal choice that I believe every person ought to be allowed to make.
Jackie, I don't think you are unintelligent at all -- the opposite actually.
I totally agree that it is your prerogative to have a child with both a male father and a female mother -- I just don't understand why you are pursuing this any further unless you want to stop his desires to transition (and therefore, HIS happiness) for your own happiness.
I've been trying to think why this bothers me so much. I think (but I'm not quite sure) it's because I see the anti-gay marriage people and see how they're so opposed to it, yet they are not even remotely affected by it. They just say "Marriage should be between a man and a woman, because the bible says so". Whenever people talk about the bible and say it's the word of god, I always say, No way - men wrote the bible to get what they want, just like that mormon guy said that god says that I should be able to marry a million women so we all go to heaven (and I can ->-bleeped-<- a million children -- and you know how many of his followers believed him!?!?!?) or that hitler said that he's killing the jews for a better cause. I just don't buy into any of it, because I can think for myself and I can decide what's right and wrong for myself, and it certainly isn't that a child needs a man to be a father and that a woman should be a mother, otherwise if I'd been in Nazi germany I'd be murdering all Jews.
Quote from: sonopoly on January 15, 2011, 11:19:36 AM
Okay, Jackie, I wasn't trying to be cruel to you, but when I heard you say that you wouldn't be with him if he became a woman because you want children and think that a child should have a woman for a mother and a man for a father, that REALLY pissed me the F*** Off. That's all I was trying to get across, okay???
NIMBY means NOT in my backyard, which I saw that you accepted your aunt, but, you know, as long is it's NOT IN MY BACKYARD!!! It just reminded me of "some of my best friends are gay!!!!"
Jackie, if you respond or anyone else does, I just want to know why it is okay for a person to feel that they don't want to have children with someone of the same sex. Okay, it is okay, I guess, but is it really? Of course it is. You can feel how you want to. It is everyone's right. I just don't think that much of people who feel that way, though I accept that people do feel that way, I just wouldn't want to be associated with them. Maybe Dan feels the same way I do. From your posts, IT IS he who is rejecting you, am I right? Which is why I added the NIMBY thing -- Yeah, I think it's okay, but not for me and my children. Please explain this to me. I know I might be attacked for my posts, but I want to get some intelligent and informed opinions as to why I'm getting attacked.
I guess what doesn't really ring true about your love for him is that you are going through all this (and he is going through this tenfold) and you are already thinking about children when it's not even close to being in the equation at this point. He is going through SERIOUS issues RIGHT NOW. You need to address them if you really care about him. I don't get why you're talking about children at this point for Christ sake. There is so much going on in him and you are already thinking about things that are way in the future. I mean, when I fell in love I really thought in the moment or just the very near future. Maybe that's just me, but I think he is really going through the most major confusion in his life and you are worried about things that are really so far in the future that I question your feelings for him. He needs your help and support for crucial things that are going on now for him -- perhaps life or death things and you're wondering about children. Just strange to me.
Sonopoly,
I know what NIMBY stands for, I'm not an idiot. And honestly, people can be accepting of homosexuality, transsexuality, anything really and not BE homosexual or transsexual. You are looking to pick a fight, and I am not going to honor you with one. Do not try to discredit myself or anyone else on this site based upon
your insinuations.
Actually, Dan's biggest fear is that I am going to reject him. He was scared when he came out, and he is still scared because he is uncertain. However, I love him, and I am not going to walk out on him. If things end, his GID is going to be the furthest thing from what brings us down (again READ ALL OF THE POSTS IN A THREAD BEFORE POSTING PLEASE. Save the rest of us the headache since we follow the flow of the thread).
And again, your NIMBY thing with the kids. Stupid and irrelevant. You can raise your children to be circus performers, just because I don't doesn't mean that I am an awful person or that I hate circuses, does it? No. You are drawing conclusions that are haphazard and offensive at best. I realize that this is public forum, and that you have every right to voice your opinion, but that doesn't mean that they are correct. Each and every person has the right to raise their family in the manner that they want, and to surround themselves with the people of their choosing.
Also, we are addressing Dan's problems RIGHT NOW. I am the one who encouraged him to seek counseling. I am the one that has been bending over backwards to make him feel comfortable expressing himself because he never has been able to. I find it ESPECIALLY insulting that you try to play out the life or death scenario at me. Dan is an adult. Dan is actually the one who brought up the subject of children. When you are in a relationship with someone and you want to spend the rest of your life with them it is not at all uncommon to discuss the goals that you have, and for us one of those things was a family. Don't you
dare for a second doubt my feelings for him. That is perhaps the most insulting thing that you have said. By far. I love him, I am trying to help him, I am trying to make things work WITH him. If I can't do that, then I will let him live his life as he needs to. Will that crush me? Absolutely.
Until this point I had not encountered such a mean spirited person on this site. Though you pointed out that you have not had the best track record with your lovers I am unable to feel empathy towards your poisonous and hurtful accusations. Though you mask them with a
seemingly intelligent request for clarification I see what you are doing for what it really is.
I really can't fathom the kind of person that is so unabashedly negative and critical.
Finally, I am not trying to quell Dan's happiness. If I was I would never have suggested him seeking out a gender therapist. I would not go to counseling with him. I would not consider for a second his need to transition. However, things are complex, and we are working together to get through it. Partnership is really something strange, as I went through your posts and see that you are not transgendered nor the SO of a transgendered person I do applaud you for seeking out the community with the intent (questionably) to support us. However, as some other individuals here (trans and cis) will point out, transitioning is equally difficult for the partner. Before I was in this position I would not so vehemently have anything to say one way or another about how it feels, however, living it is alltogether different and until you are in that position I would like to kindly disregard your mostly insufferable comments.
Sonopoly;
back off the lady. She has enough on her plate as it is.
Okay, so the one question that I've asked and have asked since my first post of this issue is:
Why are you pursuing this relationship if you said that you absolutely don't want to be with a person who is female because you want children with someone who is male? That is my problem. If you hadn't made this simple and absolute statement, I wouldn't have thought anything of it. I don't get why you are pursuing this, when you are the one who is being so inflexible.
Okay, I admit I went too far. Thank you for pointing this out, Cynthia. I'm sorry, Jackie. I just had some issues. Don't be so mad at me. I really do think you are a wonderful person and are going through a very difficult situation. I'm looking from afar. I'm sorry if I seemed cruel and heartless. I will delete all my posts, if you wish.
I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you, Jackie. I was just trying to understand you. Thank you for the negative reputation mark.
:police:
I'm moderating this thread and I'm disappointed in comments being made that are uncalled for. Be very aware of TOS rule 2 and rule 10. I will enforce them.
Cindy James
Global Moderator
Jackie,
I am so sorry that I attacked you about this. The issue at hand is important to me, but you have a right to your own feelings and are going through a lot right now. I think I was really mean and unfair to you. I am sorry about that, because obviously you are a very caring, compassionate, and kind person. I think I was thinking about the people who don't think that same sex people should bring up children, which I'm sure you aren't a part of that group. You have your own personal experiences and know what you can't handle and what you want. I think it's better to know this, than to pretend.
I am heterosexual, and I full-heartedly support gay people, but I don't think I'd have a gay relationship. It doesn't mean that I am not in support of them. I guess I could be attacked for that as unfairly as I attacked you.
I am so sorry. You are such a nice person, and I feel really bad about hurting you. I hope you can accept my apology.
Sono
Where have you gotten to Jacquelyn?
Shoot us an update with what's new!
Hey Jackie, sorry for joining the thread so late in the game. I don't really have much to contribute, but I wanted to say that I hope Dan knows how lucky he is to have someone so loving and supportive beside him. I can only hope he realizes that you are more than worth the effort. It's been quite a while since you updated, so here's hoping that things are going well.
I will let Jackie speak for herself and what is going on in her life if she chooses to share it with us. I do talk to her quite frequently though and rest assured she is ok, if facing life challenges right now (as we all are of course.) I'm sure she will return to Susan's and be her ray-of-sushine self soon enough. Until then, you will have to make do with me, the poor-man's Jackie. LOL!
Thank you for the update Melody. It's good to know that other people are watching out for her. I hope that she manages to get things settled and can rejoin us soon. Until then, this poor man would happily hang out with you. Of course, given the option, I'd go ahead and be greedy by asking for both of you to be around. :laugh:
Thanks Lee :) Jackie and I, along with Sara (Miss_Anthropic) have been in one place before when they came down to visit. The state of Florida forced us to go to Disney as only the Happiest Place on Earth was able to contain that much happiness! Otherwise we are legally obligated not to be in the same place at the same time as that might rip the very fabric of reality. :D :D :D
When you consider that Minnie Mouse was there too, it's amazing that even Disney World could handle the combined cuteness.